Separating the person from the disease

[Cumulus]

The concept of the disease is so confusing. I've realized that I never knew my xBPDh and I will never know what I meant to him.  It is really hard to let that go, and although with decreasing frequency, the thought still occurs from time to time.

How do you know if the rages, adultery, lack of respect is really them, or if it is the illness. Obviously not everyone who rages, has affairs or is disrespectful has BPD, in fact probably most don't. So was that really him, or was he the kind caring compassionate man he wanted me to see, and the behaviours were a result of his illness. And, if the behaviours were part of the illness how responsible are they for them. I'd expect a two year old to throw a tantrum if his candy was taken away, should our expectation for our SO with BPD be any different if their emotional capacity is that of a child? When are they able as adults to acknowledge the pain of their lives and the pain they bring to the people who love them, and start working on themselves.

[lockedout]

I think it's the disorder, not the person. My BPDex had some wonderful qualities... .  towards other people. The closeness of an exclusive relationship brings up anxiety over their fears of abandonment. The anxiety leads to their cognitive distortions.

I think they know there's pain in their lives, but I think their coping mechanisms regress to when they were hurt much earlier in life. They associate every perceived abandonment or hurt to that first (or only) time it happened in childhood or adolescence. I'm not a psychologist, but it's my impression after living with one for 7 years.

[maria1]

I don't believe you can separate the two. It's like trying to separate somebody's soul from them. We are talking about a disorder of personality and so, as much as it's an illness, somebody's personality IS who they are so you cannot separate it from them.

I believe, and I think I've read here somewhere that coming to terms with this is one of the greatest difficulties for us who have been involved with a pwBPD. But it's also quite freeing.

You can't love the good and not the bad, you can't love the idealisation and not the rages, can't love the most beautiful words you've ever heard but hate the emotional abuse. Because it all comes from disorder. If they can find it in themselves to know they need therapy and start working on themselves they are lucky but from what I have seen it is a long road to recovery. At the heart of BPD is shame that is really unbearable and recovery involves stopping running from the unbearable.

I will never know what I meant to my ex and I think that is very hard to deal with. I actually think sometimes I mean everything and sometimes I mean nothing and that's the nature of the disorder too.

I'm sorry you're going through this- it gets easier with time and learning about the disorder. You seem to me to be on a good track Cumulus

[almost789]

It is the disorder and they are not responsible for most of their actions.

[WT]

I agree with maria1.  I don't think that you can separate the person from the disorder.  The disorder is really what defines their personality, and I agree that it's quite freeing to think of it that way because you're not left wondering which parts of the relationship were "real" and which were "BPD."  Immediately following my breakup from my ex, I tormented myself by wondering if she ever truly loved me.  Once I came to the conclusion that BPD is what framed our entire relationship, I stopped wondering.  Did she ever truly love me?  I believe that she did in her own way, but it wasn't the "real" love that defines a successful relationship.  It was the BPD love that comes and goes.

I'm not sure that it's right to say that someone with BPD isn't responsible for their actions.  Even murderers who plead insanity will still go to prison.  I haven't completely resolved in my head how much a pwBPD should be responsible for their actions though.

[sunrising]

It is the disorder and they are not responsible for most of their actions.

They may not accept responsibility, but they are responsible.  If not, who is?   I see it as a dangerous path to allow a disorder to be an excuse. An explanation?  Yes.  An excuse, no... .    I imagine this is consistent with general approach to helping a pwBPD via therapy.

As far as separating their "good" and "bad" behavior, both parts are driven by the disorder.   It is so tempting for us, as people who thought we were "in love" with a pwBPD, to try giving the pwBPD credit for the good behavior and give the disorder credit for the bad behavior.   BOTH behaviors are driven by the disorder (the good and the bad), and the pwBPD is responsible for both.   That's the way I see it.

[Iced]

I also don't think it's possible - especially when the BPD is going strong - to separate the BPD from the person. 

The reason why I think this is because at this point in their lives, they themselves AND the BPD are so fully integrated that that have lost most if not all sense of 'self' and 'self awareness'.

This is why pwBPD will play the blame game and blame everyone else for everything else... .  and never once genuinely consider themselves to be the ones at fault and attempts to treat the pwBPD are met with a stone wall because the pwBPD refuses or perhaps even CAN'T admit that they have a problem.

If they think they're doing no wrong and if they can't apologize and if they can't be rational and if they also can't see that there IS a problem... .  

There is simply no longer a 'separation' between the person who would - in any other normal circumstance - be conscientious, rational, and reasonable - and the BPD because to the pwBPD, it IS an integrated thing in their mind as they are at this point running their lives by BPD.

[GlennT]

It never ceases to amaze me how something like BPD, as a person's entire personality, can begin in such an innocent place as childhood. There is a vast difference between childhood personality and adult personality, and how this disorder, that is so hard to stereotype,  has such far reaching and devastating consequences for so many people. There is a BPD woman, whom from early childhood I have known, who effortlessly flitted from  overidealizing so many young boyfriends and girlfriends, and leaving them suddenly, and not even caring, after she so subtly mirrored them and charmed them all, since she was 10 years old! How can you separate something like this that started so young? She has such power of human magnetism that it seems other worldly, I daresay, even beyond personality! Yes, likewise, these people seem to have an ability to make you feel super human, and faultless too. They can somehow penetrate your deepest feelings to make you feel enormous joy and pain. This is a power that has taken down the strongest of men. The more I study this, the more I believe it is magnetism that even goes beyond human personality into deeper darker realms.

[gina louise]

I really struggled with this concept. I saw that my HUSBAND was able to be aware of his behavior and others' boundaries for example, at work or in public. He was more than capable of preventing himself from acting out of line at work, or at church. He was able to act in kind and socially acceptable ways, fairly consistently.

He was not rude, disdainful or aggressive towards them.

He tended to idealize new people and workplaces-until they lost their newness.

So why (at home) with me was he so flagrantly disrespectful of my feelings if he could be considerate of a female co-worker Or even a stranger?

Why not offer me the same level of consideration?

Was that outer niceness also driven by his disorder? A Need to be seen as Good?

I believe I took over in his head for his parents-and that drove his behavior towards me to be selfish, violent and callous.

He characterized our marriage as horrible, and blamed me.   

(the same way he characterized his parents marriage)

So why wouldn't he be responsible for Both the good behavior and the Bad?

I don't think the disorder-whatever PD it is, excuses them from being ultimately responsible. I have seen him bite his tongue, turn the other cheek, or control his driving/yelling and not attack.

He has the awareness and the capacity.

What I saw was that, mostly with me, he disregarded it and just let fly the epithet, the insult, the rage, the attack.

GL

[Iced]

It is the disorder and they are not responsible for most of their actions.

They may not accept responsibility, but they are responsible.  If not, who is?   I see it as a dangerous path to allow a disorder to be an excuse. An explanation?  Yes.  An excuse, no... .   I imagine this is consistent with general approach to helping a pwBPD via therapy.

As far as separating their "good" and "bad" behavior, both parts are driven by the disorder.   It is so tempting for us, as people who thought we were "in love" with a pwBPD, to try giving the pwBPD credit for the good behavior and give the disorder credit for the bad behavior.   BOTH behaviors are driven by the disorder (the good and the bad), and the pwBPD is responsible for both.   That's the way I see it.

Going slightly OT, but I wanted to say that I share very similar sentiments in regards to your thought - the one that I bolded.

Though a person is never to blame for a disorder, they are also still responsible for themselves and if they CAN'T be responsible for themselves, then I honestly believe that the medical and law enforcement community needs to be.

A police officer arrests a drunk driver.  Why?  Because the drunk driver can recklessly get into an accident with someone else because their judgment is impaired.

A wife can call 911 and have the police and medical authorities put her husband under inpatient psychiatric care because he is in the raging manic phase of bipolar disorder and they have an agreement between them as outlined by his psychiatrist that she - or someone else - is to intervene when he becomes a danger to himself and/or others because he is in the middle of an episode.

Basically, a forced intervention - an intervention that can save lives and get the people who NEED help THE help that they so desperately need.

What I don't understand is:

Though it is abundantly clear that the chaotic fallout of a BPD-infused lifestyle is DEVASTATING (anyone who wants to argue this point is free to go re-examine why they are visiting this website in the first place and are especially encouraged to read the forum related to healing from having a relationship with a BPD parent or guardian), why is it that there seems to be so much LESS intervention?

The persons with BPD that the good majority of us here on this forum have had experiences with are NOT self-aware and are living their lives according to what the BPD in them demands and as a result, otherwise innocent people (children, especially) are often traumatized.

And yet it isn't the persons with BPD who are getting help.

It is US.  It is a significant other.  It is a best friend.  It is the CHILDREN of BPD parents.  It is EVERYONE ELSE -BUT- the persons with BPD who are getting help.

And despite the chaos that their disorder provokes in their own lives and in the lives of those they will do nearly anything to keep close to them while they still need them, there is little forced intervention.

It just... .  doesn't make sense to me at all.

People with other psychiatric disorders, people who have drug and alcohol abuse problems, people with other medical conditions that can provoke a loss of self control/self restraint... .  receive intervention fairly regularly.  You hear about intervention for pretty much every kind of disorder... .  save for BPD unless BPD is comorbid with something else, like... .  alcohol abuse or major depression to the point of suicidal ideation.

If a drunk driver can be arrested for driving under the influence and being a potential danger to both themselves, their passengers, and other passersby, then why doesn't a person with BPD receive the same intervention?

Substitute passengers for 'family' and passersby for 'people whom they seek out to fill in voids created by the BPD', and the situation is the same.  Someone who is 'under the influence' and the possibility of 'potential victims'.

And though adults like the majority of us can choose to stand up and walk away, there are those who have been hurt who cannot do the same thing (children/those under the care and dependent on the care of the adult(s) with BPD) and it is for these people that intervention and help is most crucial.

[Cumulus]

Thank you, really helpful answers to what I am trying to understand. I hadn't considered the following that make a lot of sense to me as I think about them in relation to what I have lived.

- you can't separate the person from the disease, it's a disease of the personality and that personality is who they are.

- you can't love the good and not the bad because it all comes from the disorder. Will keep thinking on this Maria. This is exactly what I need to decide, true or not. Easy to think the bad stuff was BPD, harder to think the good stuff was. And I go back to things just aren't all or nothing, all good or all bad. So there is no way to know what part of the good was him, or how much of the bad was him. Which brings me right back again to your first point.

-"I'm not sure that it's right to say that someone with BPD isn't responsible for their actions.   I haven't completely resolved in my head how much a pwBPD should be responsible for their actions though." Exactly, my thoughts WT.

- the disorder is an explanation, but not an excuse for their behaviour. I agree, but my person with BPD would never be able to see that.

- a magnetism that goes beyond personality into darker realms. GT it is a haunting question, it is so difficult to answer. I know others have talked about the Jekyll / Hyde personality, it is that good vs evil battle, one that I watched my X deal with constantly.

- GL, it's good to know I am not alone trying to understand this. I would say this has been the most difficult concept for me to understand, accept, and move on from.

- iced, thank you, that last post was incredibly helpful, fascinating thoughts really.

[Iced]

Upon rereading my previous post, I hope no one mistakes my last post (I'm not saying anyone did; I just want to make sure no one does!) for saying that I believe that pwBPD are deliberately trying to cause harm to others because that isn't and wasn't the point of my post.

The point of my post is that BPD - like most if not all psychiatric conditions - is not the same as something like hemophilia - a genetic condition that someone can be born with and will have to live through for the entire duration of their lives and to a degree, are ruled by this permanent and irreversible condition.

Instead, it is a DISORDER and like most psychiatric disorders, it is possible for therapy to provide help and what I don't understand is, why there isn't more intervention for pwBPD.  Hence, my examples of the different people who would otherwise be receiving intervention... .  who are also people who have disorders.

Even for something like diabetes (childhood diabetes being a class on its own), people can manage their conditions.  But they have to WANT to help themselves first and foremost.  Life may not be perfect (but since when is it ever anyways?), but it can be BETTER.

Someone with BPD CAN try to manage the disorder and get therapy for the disorder.  And, in the same manner as the diabetic, they have to WANT to help themselves, too.  

Difference is, where a diabetic is mostly hurting ONLY themselves by failing to comply with their dietary restrictions and/or insulin shot necessities, a pwBPD/person struggling with a severe attachment disorder is affecting everyone else around them including themselves.

Most importantly to me, there are INNOCENTS involved who, unlike adults, cannot fend for themselves, initiate NC, and don't fully understand what boundaries are and what enabling is versus supporting.

In my honest opinion, intervention doesn't happen because people - including psychiatrists, law enforcement officials, medical specialists, the people who sincerely love the persons struggling with severe attachment disorder - are too afraid to put their foot down and say, "Though having this disorder isn't your fault, you NEED help and appropriate support to help you get through this."

It's almost as if people are entirely too willing to either overlook or make excuses, or, they're too uncomfortable with how unpolitically correct it may sound to tell someone that they NEED help.

SOs, friends, minor-aged children, adult children whoevers aren't enough to 'treat' a condition like this - at least, not in its strongest phases.  With appropriate training and understanding of the condition, they can help support the struggling person(s), but at the heart of it all - at its very ROOT - there NEEDS to be professional help who is a third and otherwise uninvolved party.

Why else do police arrest drunk drivers and suspend their licenses?

Just because they have nothing better to do?

How about because drunk drivers account for a goodly number of vehicular accidents and deaths that may otherwise have never happened?

Just because people aren't dying from being in close contact with persons with severe attachment disorder (and don't know what's going on and don't have the right boundaries, etc) doesn't mean that the end result is any less traumatic.

Maybe people aren't dead, but the trauma - just like any other trauma - is very much real and if THAT is left untreated, it can have far-reaching affects.

It's like abuse.

Just because you're not in the ER bleeding out of your ears doesn't mean it's not abuse.

It's NOT their fault they have the disorder, but at the same time, that disorder also NEEDS to be treated.  Not just for other people, mind, but for themselves.

That's my entire point.

[nylonsquid]

I had just posted a reply on a similar subject.

No, you can't separate them. I find it confusing to call it a disease. It should just be a personality type or something. A disorder or disease gives the impression that someone who is completely fine suffers from an occasional bout from an external force alleviating him from responsibility and giving him more reason to be treated like a victim. How can one take the idealization without the devaluation? Afterall, isn't that the balance they have? There's a bunch of contradictions that happen in the mind of a pwBPD and that is their balance. These statements sound contradictory and that is what this disordered person is anyway. Is it a genuinely good person who struggles with doing evil or is it an evil person that struggles being good? Half full or half empty depending on how you view things. I say both are true. This is the struggle that I find people trying to grasp, is whether the pwBPDs are 'genuinely' good and believing that they will get better and overcome this disease like they caught a cold. It is hard to let go of the idea that the feelings of euphoria that both had initially were anything but fake. They were real to the pwBPD but they also shared this feeling with others and now do after us. This results in us grasping for answers and projecting our normal thoughts on to theirs. We find one answer, and we call it BPD. Now we see them as victim and want to help them giving us good reason to hold on to the good part we liked and excusing them because of this thing we called BPD. Enter the 'rescuer' mentality. We tend to think we're special based on what was told to us by pwBPD (e.g. "I've never felt like this with someone ever before", and find it difficult to believe that pwBPD can really truly dislike us. We give them a scapegoat and call it BPD and continue loving them. This is also dangerous. A full understanding of BPD I found is important to disengage so keep reading on it.

We're asking what the essence of a person is when it comes to, what we currently call, a personality disorder. There is no essence. There is no genuine. There was a death. The death of a real self in early childhood that caused this arrested development and built an unsustainable fake self. This is why they feel empty. Applying our own reasoning is implying they think and feel like us. They simply don't.

To me, it sounds like all the questioning here is to figure out a way to change them. I sometimes find this unfair. This is who they are. Love them for who they are, close or far. Don't compromise yourself in the process. I am looking back at my experience as a gift that opened my eyes more to the human condition. Don't get stuck with some ideas and turn your experience into bitterness. You are in charge of your life and the choices are yours.

[Iced]

-"I'm not sure that it's right to say that someone with BPD isn't responsible for their actions.   I haven't completely resolved in my head how much a pwBPD should be responsible for their actions though." Exactly, my thoughts WT.

- the disorder is an explanation, but not an excuse for their behaviour. I agree, but my person with BPD would never be able to see that.

Cumulus,

I struggled with this myself when my close friend with BPD kind of went off the deep end and our relationship finally ended with rage episode after rage episode after rage episode that involved a lot of verbal abuse, verbal threats, and finally, an absolute refusal to talk rationally with me and suicidal threats towards themselves and then refusal to return to therapy and get help.

On the one hand, I knew they had a disorder, but on the other hand, I also knew that they could be getting help if they were willing to do so.

I wasn't expecting a sudden change, or for my friend to suddenly become 'all better', and at the time, I wasn't even expecting an apology.  What I DID want and what they NEEDED was to acknowledge that they were caught in the middle of a rage spell and needed help and I was fully willing at the time to hang on and be there for them while they got the professional help they needed.

But they continuously chose not to and chose to deny having any problems and chose to assert that they were 100% right and everyone else was 100% wrong (in a, I want you to be miserable so this is why I am screaming this at you sort of manner) and so, I finally initiated NC.

Given the situation, ultimately, it wasn't on my shoulders to push for intervention beyond what I had pushed for (which I won't go into details over) and so I didn't.

But really, intervention was very much necessary because if nothing else, my friend was a very real threat to themselves... .  and were very clearly in the throes of their attachment disorder-inspired raging and emotional whirlwind.

The whole point - the exact point - of the whole "but the persons struggling with severe attachment disorder would never/does never see that" scenario IS the fact that... .  they don't see it.

But just because THEY don't see it doesn't mean that it's: not happening, they're not delusional, they're never responsible for themselves, and that they don't need help.

And the thing is, if they DENY responsibility for themselves and are delusional in the sense of incorrectly believing things and insisting that their incorrect beliefs are true... .  that in and of itself is basis for intervention.  Hospitalization, even.

So why do people continue to say, "No, it's not your fault!" and provide validation for their behaviors... .  but don't force the equally and perhaps even more necessary intervention?

Unless of course, people want to differentiate and say that persons with severe attachment disorder are different from people who have something like bipolar disorder in that THEIR delusions are, in fact, real and that validating their whirlwind emotions and actions and behaviors and 'understanding them more' is all that is necessary for them to get better.

... .  That said, I'm also NOT saying that people who are providing validating support are not initiating intervention.  That isn't it, either.

I just think that in comparison to other disorders and medical conditions, it seems that people on a whole are more liable to say, "Ohhh, a person with severe attachment disorder isn't responsible for what happens.  We just need to be more understanding and accept them for who they are and things will just get better," rather than, "A person with severe attachment disorder isn't responsible for their disorder and needs patience, understanding, and a validating support system to help them through things, IN ADDITION TO getting good professional psychiatric support."

I hope I made sense with everything I wrote.

[WT]

Hi Iced, everything that you've said makes perfect sense to me and I agree with you 100% that if pwBPD can't take responsibility for their own actions, then someone needs to step in and take that responsibility.  I think that the problem with disorders like BPD is that the negative effect that it has on others isn't so tangible unless it reaches the point of violence, self-harm, etc.  Because of this intangibility, it'd be hard for a third party (like the authorities) to really "know" how bad things are with a pwBPD without continuous observation.  My ex's own therapist (who she had been seeing for months) told me that she didn't think that my ex had BPD, and this was when my ex wasn't even present, so it's not so easy to convince people that pwBPD aren't fit to take care of themselves.

[maria1]

This is a great thread- what makes us 'nons' capable of deciding that people with BPD aren't capable of taking care of themselves? I'm not sure that's a judgement we are able to make. It is much easier to see others dysfunction rather than see out own and this is the 'denial' that us codependents live in.

If you think about it, expecting a disordered person to realise ie. think they have a problem with their disordered thinking is impossible. What seems to happen sometimes and leads to therapy is their actions confront them and that leads to a realisation that something is wrong.

For us on the other side, we chose to stay in a relationship or relationships where something was seriously wrong. For me, I did this in different relationships. I started to realise that focussing on somebody else's problems was a cop out for ignoring my own. I wasn't ignoring all my problems by any means. On the face if it I was dealing with stuff, more self aware than many. But the deep rooted stuff, that was where I couldn't face going. Just like pwBPD.

We need to the pwBPDs need to do- its working for me, hard as it is.

[Iced]

Hi Iced, everything that you've said makes perfect sense to me and I agree with you 100% that if pwBPD can't take responsibility for their own actions, then someone needs to step in and take that responsibility.  I think that the problem with disorders like BPD is that the negative effect that it has on others isn't so tangible unless it reaches the point of violence, self-harm, etc.  Because of this intangibility, it'd be hard for a third party (like the authorities) to really "know" how bad things are with a pwBPD without continuous observation.  My ex's own therapist (who she had been seeing for months) told me that she didn't think that my ex had BPD, and this was when my ex wasn't even present, so it's not so easy to convince people that pwBPD aren't fit to take care of themselves.

There is definitely that, too; thanks so much for bringing that up.

Maybe it also has to do with the luck of the draw regarding where people live, too, and how local authorities, psyDs, and doctors and such tend to handle such situations.

Related to this, it is perhaps easier if there are children involved to get intervention.  If it's something between two adults and - like you said - no actual physical violence happens, it may be easier to dismiss it as a spat or 'lover's quarrel' sort of thing.

[Iced]

This is a great thread- what makes us 'nons' capable of deciding that people with BPD aren't capable of taking care of themselves? I'm not sure that's a judgement we are able to make. It is much easier to see others dysfunction rather than see out own and this is the 'denial' that us codependents live in.

If you think about it, expecting a disordered person to realise ie. think they have a problem with their disordered thinking is impossible. What seems to happen sometimes and leads to therapy is their actions confront them and that leads to a realisation that something is wrong.

For us on the other side, we chose to stay in a relationship or relationships where something was seriously wrong. For me, I did this in different relationships. I started to realise that focussing on somebody else's problems was a cop out for ignoring my own. I wasn't ignoring all my problems by any means. On the face if it I was dealing with stuff, more self aware than many. But the deep rooted stuff, that was where I couldn't face going. Just like pwBPD.

We need to the pwBPDs need to do- its working for me, hard as it is.

Not necessarily WE would make such an end-all-be-all decision, but if, for example, a pwBPD is having an attack of rage and is throwing things around and is threatening to kill themselves and is basically being unsafe to both people around them and themselves, how much worse would that have to be for someone to say, "This isn't right; we need help." and get that help?

People with mood disorders (this is just an example and I'm using it because it is most common in these cases) with a high risk for self harm or harm to others (as a result of mood disorder affecting them) sign contracts with their psychiatrists - a promise to not self-harm or commit suicide or behave in manners unsafe to them and other people - and in these contracts, they list people whom they feel can have 'power of attorney' if a situation arises... .  including law enforcement and their own psychiatrist or another psychiatrist.

If a person associated with the person with the mood disorder decided to intervene on behalf of the person with the mood disorder - let's say if they were in a manic phase and were experiencing delusions of grandeur, this would be absolutely expected and even considered as part and parcel of the treatment plan and therapy as outlined by the psychiatrist.

Is this any different from a 'non' spouse/SO/whoever of a pwBPD who cares for the pwBPD taking action by alerting the pwBPD's healthcare provider (psych or GP/PCP) or even local authorities if it gets THAT bad?

To me, it isn't.

The biggest difference is, that the person with the mood disorder - at the time of signing - is aware enough to know that they CAN be destabilized at times and a harm to themselves and others.

The person with the severe attachment disorder, on the other hand, may NEVER be aware enough to even accept that they need help and are a danger to themselves and others and in all reality, those are the situations that are the most dangerous.

This isn't a matter of saying, "I'm right, you're wrong!"

This is a matter of saying, "This is really unhealthy behavior and it is harmful to both you and those around you and it probably should be looked into."

A mother takes her child to the doctor because he suddenly stops eating and loses interest in playing.  She's concerned.  And those of you who are parents would probably say, "And rightfully so!"

An adult child (in this sense, son or daughter, not the other connotation) sees that their parent is forgetting things very easily and after forgetting the way home, they take their parent to see an Alzheimer's specialist.  Those of you who have had the painful experience seeing this happen would probably also say, "This could be something serious and if it is, it could be dangerous."

A wife calls 911 because hubby is raging and threatening violence and perhaps even becomes violent.  A boyfriend calls 911 because he's been pleading with his girlfriend across a locked door to not kill herself and his girlfriend is in the throes of a very emotionally charged episode of rage and guilt and whatever else is going on.

How are those two situations any different from the other two I gave?

Do we think that in the case of the last two examples, the 'nons' are being controlling and are assuming too much?

[WT]

Hi maria1, I agree that we nons need to take care of ourselves first and foremost, but you're assuming that it's easy for anyone to exit their relationship with their pwBPD.  I don't think that you're taking into consideration the children, parents, siblings, other family members, or even the partners/spouses who might not be able to simply exit the relationship for one reason or another.  Anyone who's intimately close to pwBPD is in the danger zone, not just partners.  Imagine young children who watch one parent become violent with the other, or perhaps even become violent with them.  There are a lot of reasons why someone with BPD might not be able to take care of themselves or take care of those who depend on them.

Iced: The irony is that during the most epic fights with my ex, she would start to scream things like, "Help! He's hurting me!" and then people would look at us and assume that I was hurting her.  I'd imagine that many "lovers' quarrels" between a non-male and a BPD-female end with the non-male being taken away by the police.

[Clearmind]

How do you know if the rages, adultery, lack of respect is really them, or if it is the illness. Obviously not everyone who rages, has affairs or is disrespectful has BPD, in fact probably most don't. So was that really him, or was he the kind caring compassionate man he wanted me to see, and the behaviours were a result of his illness. And, if the behaviours were part of the illness how responsible are they for them. I'd expect a two year old to throw a tantrum if his candy was taken away, should our expectation for our SO with BPD be any different if their emotional capacity is that of a child? When are they able as adults to acknowledge the pain of their lives and the pain they bring to the people who love them, and start working on themselves.

BPD is a disorder of the personality – your partner was all that you saw – the good and the bad – we cannot split off any part of them – they are who they present themselves to be - its unfortunate we did tend to split off the good - one of the reasons we stayed. We did not want to face the reality of our dire situations.

Your partner is an adult and therefore accountable – I did not set firm boundaries with my ex over his outbursts, devaluing etc – this is my stuff to sort through.

Any person who rages has poor coping skills – not just Borderlines.

Generally, they need to hit rock bottom to accept help and this goes for anyone who needs a dose of therapy.

I hit rock bottom when I split from my ex – it certainly got me into therapy. I went to therapy to understand my ex – I soon learnt I needed to understand myself more – I too must be held accountable for my role in the relationship dynamic.

[Iced]

Hi maria1, I agree that we nons need to take care of ourselves first and foremost, but you're assuming that it's easy for anyone to exit their relationship with their pwBPD.  I don't think that you're taking into consideration the children, parents, siblings, other family members, or even the partners/spouses who might not be able to simply exit the relationship for one reason or another.  Anyone who's intimately close to pwBPD is in the danger zone, not just partners.  Imagine young children who watch one parent become violent with the other, or perhaps even become violent with them.  There are a lot of reasons why someone with BPD might not be able to take care of themselves or take care of those who depend on them.

Iced: The irony is that during the most epic fights with my ex, she would start to scream things like, "Help! He's hurting me!" and then people would look at us and assume that I was hurting her.  I'd imagine that many "lovers' quarrels" between a non-male and a BPD-female end with the non-male being taken away by the police.

That IS an unfortunate thing and even more unfortunately, I think there is a perpetuating belief that just because a male is... .  male... .  it means they are immune to abuse and can never BE the ones BEING abused which is BS.

I was reading the thread about advice for non-males in regards to not accidentally getting arrested for reporting cases of domestic violence and such and it's rather sad that there is such a strong leaning towards, "if one of them is male, then they are the one in the wrong."

Yes, of course, men are biologically stronger, but... .  what?

A man has to be smited over the head with a frying pan and bleeding everywhere for people to believe he's been abused or is in an abusive relationship?

There's no excuse for that; there really isn't.

I'm all for protecting the women from being bullied by people bigger and stronger, but... .  that also isn't a "get out of jail free" card, either.

[maria1]

I absolutely agree that there may well be other reasons such as children why we stay and I agree with you absolutely. I also agree that if someone is a danger to themselves or to others then an intervention is essential- no question.

I'm just making the point that codependent types tend to be the types who stay in relationships with pwBPD. Because it fits. The gaps in each fill the other if you like. No blame or fault intended in what I'm saying, just that its a long road examining why we stayed.

[Clearmind]

I'm just making the point that codependent types tend to be the types who stay in relationships with pwBPD. Because it fits. The gaps in each fill the other if you like. No blame or fault intended in what I'm saying, just that its a long road examining why we stayed.

[almost789]

I appreciate you all trying to analyze whether a BPD is responsible for their actions. And this is always a contentious topic. But the real researchers in this disorder say they are NOT responsible. Most of their actions are beyond their control. How could they be responsible for something they have no control of as a result of their disordered brain. Thats similar to blaming a cerebral palsey  person for not being able to walk. Or a tourrettes victim for having tics.

[Clearmind]

Workshop - US: Can we hold the mentally ill responsible for what they do?

[Iced]

Workshop - US: Can we hold the mentally ill responsible for what they do?

Thanks much for the link.  

Sorry if the topic tangented.

I posted in the linked thread a summary of what I posted here (and linked to this thread).

[Cumulus]

Thank you for the link, will check it out. I have thought, how will I ever know the answers if I don't even know the questions to ask. Many thanks all for your ideas, answers and questions. Iced, I believe I did understand where you were going with your post. I understood it to mean that intervention could help with BPD situations, in particular situations where the abused has little or no ability to remove themselves from the situation, the old, the young, the physically ill. Certainly they are a vulnerable group, but even as a strong, competent woman I was also vulnerable because I didn't know what I was dealing with. No one ever informed me that my xBPDh was suffering from a mental illness. No one ever said to me that behaviour isn't normal. I am an educated person, in the health field! and I didn't have the understanding to realize how I was emotionally abused. Would I have listened if a physician, a minister, a friend had intervened? I think so.  My idea of the human journey is that we travel with one arm extended in front of us, reaching for the strength of those who have gone ahead, and one arm behind us reaching to help those that are behind. So yes, I think I would have listened if it was someone I thought was ahead in the journey and was reaching back to help me. I like the term"pay it forward", not only to do with our financial giving, but also with our emotional and knowledgeable selves. Searching ourselves, listening and reading others thoughts, this ordeal puts us in a different space and one in which we now stand in a position to pay it forward to others. Carefully!

Nylonsquid, helpful comments. Thank you. I did spend many years trying to get my XH to change but at the time I thought it was because he wanted my help to change. Which leads me back to was that real? Reading these posts is helping me to answer to that question.  

[Cumulus]

Hi clear mind, I am unable to access that workshop. I get the error has occurred workshop is off limits. Is there another link I could access it through? Thanks, cumulus.

[Iced]

Thank you for the link, will check it out. I have thought, how will I ever know the answers if I don't even know the questions to ask. Many thanks all for your ideas, answers and questions. Iced, I believe I did understand where you were going with your post. I understood it to mean that intervention could help with BPD situations, in particular situations where the abused has little or no ability to remove themselves from the situation, the old, the young, the physically ill. Certainly they are a vulnerable group, but even as a strong, competent woman I was also vulnerable because I didn't know what I was dealing with. No one ever informed me that my xBPDh was suffering from a mental illness. No one ever said to me that behaviour isn't normal. I am an educated person, in the health field! and I didn't have the understanding to realize how I was emotionally abused. Would I have listened if a physician, a minister, a friend had intervened? I think so.  My idea of the human journey is that we travel with one arm extended in front of us, reaching for the strength of those who have gone ahead, and one arm behind us reaching to help those that are behind. So yes, I think I would have listened if it was someone I thought was ahead in the journey and was reaching back to help me. I like the term"pay it forward", not only to do with our financial giving, but also with our emotional and knowledgeable selves. Searching ourselves, listening and reading others thoughts, this ordeal puts us in a different space and one in which we now stand in a position to pay it forward to others. Carefully!

Nylonsquid, helpful comments. Thank you. I did spend many years trying to get my XH to change but at the time I thought it was because he wanted my help to change. Which leads me back to was that real? Reading these posts is helping me to answer to that question.  

I also didn't mean to make it sound like that I was excluding or invalidating the persons involved with a pwBPD who themselves are otherwise healthy (because that wasn't the intent or purpose) when talking about the purpose of intervention and the benefits.  

My brain is kind of everywhere tonight (lots of things on my mind), so I apologize if my thoughts are a bit disjointed.

To answer your question about the thread Clearmind linked to, it's in a forum called [L6] Taking Inventory.  Can you access the thread/topic through the forum itself?

[mosaicbird]

You need to have 50 posts to access the Taking Inventory forum. Just two more, Cumulus. 

I have thoughts on this topic, but they're hard to articulate... .  With this disorder, in particular, you may have someone who can seemingly function quite normally and responsibly outside the context of situations in which the disorder is triggered (close relationships), but in those triggering situations they're essentially reacting/acting out of a mindstate in which they're a young child in arrested development. (I don't think there's an absolute "death" of self in BPD, or those reactions couldn't exist, and the shame at the heart of it couldn't exist... .  There's a self, but it's one frozen in time and fear that hasn't grown up.) And, you have a disorder that basically functions is such a way as to deny its own existence. Tricky.

I have experienced episodes with my BPD ex where she snaps and goes into another mode, and seems to have no connection to reality or to her rational side at all, and afterwards she would say that it was like she became another person entirely for a while. I don't think people pay enough attention, sometimes, to that part of the criteria that reads "or severe dissociative symptoms". My current partner has Dissociative Identity Disorder, so it's something I'm very familiar with and have done a lot of research into over the years, and I agree with those who see BPD as being a disorder somewhere on the dissociative spectrum.

That said, I do believe pwBPD hold responsibility for their actions, as do people with DID, whatever alter performed the action. The entity as a whole bears responsibility - who else possibly could?

But, what is the purpose of assigning that responsibility and apportioning blame, unless a crime against society's laws has been committed? Feeling the need to have the pwBPD in our lives take responsibility for their actions is our need - for justice, for fairness, for the sense we have that someone must always be responsible for what occurs in a chaotic universe. The pwBPD might be responsible, but they are equally incapable of being aware of that responsibility unless they get to the point where they acknowledge the disorder and can sustain that acknowledgment without burying it. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure I understand the end goal of assigning responsibility/blame... .  what difference does it make, really? It doesn't change the harm done and it doesn't make the pwBPD any more aware of what they've done.