Ruined plans and PA

[Thunderstruck]

This will be a vent. I'm just upset about the situation right now.

SO's uBPDx offered to let him take D8 to this festival last night. So he drops me off at the festival and goes to meet up with her at their usual exchange spot (someone on the board recommended this approach to minimize the rage, maybe Dreamgirl?). I guess he saw her leaving the exchange point as he was pulling in, and she texted that he couldn't take D8 because I was there (  did she stalk the festival?). Well we went to the festival anyway since I was already there. Whose night was ruined? The little one's. That's sucktastic mothering.

So now she claims that D8 wants to drop his last name (it's currently hyphenated) and only have her mom's last name. I'm sure the little one said it in anger last night because she was told all day "YAY! Daddy is going to take you to the festival!" and then "He doesn't want to take you anymore." or some nonsense and she got hurt.

Total garbage.

[DreamGirl]

I'm sorry, Thunderstruck.

It really does only hurt the kiddo.

Your SO doesn't have an enforceable court order yet, does he? 

[david]

My ex is like that too. It really upset me in the beginning until I realized it was all to get me to react. When I stopped reacting to her and/or the kids things started getting better. First, I was able to concentrate on our boys and listen and validate. I began to understand that they told me these things because they were confused and did not know what to make of it. The more I listened the more they talked and eventually they figured out what made sense and what did not. Also, when ex didn't get a reaction from me she reduced the amount of nonsense. It takes a while (in my instance it took close to a year before things settled into a new routine from ex) It oscillated up and down for a while and then smoothed out.

If D8 indicated that mom put ideas about dad not wanting to take her to the festival I think that should be dealt with by simply stating the facts trying not to put the blame on mom but pointing out that dad did show up at the usual spot.

Document these things in detail just in case you go to court in the future. One thing is a anomaly but a list of such types of behavior demonstrates an inability to co parent.

[Thunderstruck]

I'm sorry, Thunderstruck.

It really does only hurt the kiddo.

Your SO doesn't have an enforceable court order yet, does he? 

No, the x's financials are due today and then they can schedule a mediation date. I'm hoping this means it'll happen rather soon. ::fingers crossed::

[Thunderstruck]

My ex is like that too. It really upset me in the beginning until I realized it was all to get me to react. When I stopped reacting to her and/or the kids things started getting better. First, I was able to concentrate on our boys and listen and validate. I began to understand that they told me these things because they were confused and did not know what to make of it. The more I listened the more they talked and eventually they figured out what made sense and what did not. Also, when ex didn't get a reaction from me she reduced the amount of nonsense. It takes a while (in my instance it took close to a year before things settled into a new routine from ex) It oscillated up and down for a while and then smoothed out.

If D8 indicated that mom put ideas about dad not wanting to take her to the festival I think that should be dealt with by simply stating the facts trying not to put the blame on mom but pointing out that dad did show up at the usual spot.

Document these things in detail just in case you go to court in the future. One thing is a anomaly but a list of such types of behavior demonstrates an inability to co parent.

My SO and I were trying to figure a way to explain the situation to D8 so that she would understand that he wasn't trying to hurt her and without finger pointing. It's a tough spot, especially since he gets so little time with her currently. It's not enough time to repair the damage done by her mom's negativity and alienation tactics. We just try to be positive and loving and hope that she'll believe our actions over her mom's words.

[DreamGirl]

OK, thunderstruck... .  

I am going to give you out-of-the-box, enabling the unjustified, unfair to you, completely pacifying the pwBPD advice.

Stop being involved in visitation until the parenting agreement is signed and enforceable.

It sounds like she is willing to let Dad have vistation - she's not willing to let Dad and thunderstruck have visitation.

So I say let Dad take every single offer of visitation by himself, because that's unfortunately what the person holding the cards wants, and every visitation is another day he gets to spend with his daughter... .  and they both need that.  

She is absolutely in the wrong for what she's doing and you are right - all she's doing is punishing the kiddo and causing a huge strain on the Father/Daughter relationship. Unfortunately, without the parenting time agreement, she can continue to withhold visitation every time she knows/thinks you're going to be involved.

I went thru the same thing, TS, and this solution worked for my husband. It caused the least amount of conflict/drama. It also set the precedent (of husband having every other weekend) for the temporary orders hearing that allocated the parenting time in writing. It gave her what she wanted on a temporary basis until he had something that was enforceable by the judicial system.

Yes, she will have to learn to deal with you at some point. It is perfectly OK to set that boundary now - thunderstruck is here to stay and you can't stop it.  

You are absolutely in the right.  

The thing is? She'll drag the kiddo into it though and she unfortunately, with being the parent who has unwritten custodial possession of the little one, is well within her rights to keep pulling this kind of stuff.

I know how unfair this all sounds. It is unfair. For me, I just try to find the means to an end. I'll give her a $1 to save $1000 even though I don't owe her a thing.

~DG

[david]

I think DG's idea is a really good idea. I didn't have that situation with my ex but she did try to dictate the terms of what I was allowed to do and what I was not allowed to do with our kids. In the beginning I tried to explain my reasons and of course that never worked. When I first found this site I was told to give my ex enough rope and she will use it. The more it appeared I was doing exactly what she wanted the more time I was allowed to have with our boys. I started with EOW and by following that course of action I am now up to 45 % of the time. Each time I established a considerable amount of additional time I was able to lock it in legally. It is a slow process and I stayed focused on our boys needs. This did take a while for me to get good at and I also had the help of a therapist to help me see the bogger picture. Persistence and focus pays off in the long run and it was the best thing I did for our boys.

My ex ran away 5 plus years ago. The boys were 8.5 and 4.5 years old. A few months after she ran away she dropped the boys off. They walked into the house and said in unison, "We hate you and want to live with mom. We never want to see you again." I replied that I loved them and I always would. It took over a year before the oldest started to see things. It took the youngest over two years. Today, when they have a problem they come to me. I listen and guide them and help them figure things out. Mom yells at them and tells them what to do. Their biggest complaint is that mom just doesn't listen. I've come to realize that mom's issues are too much for her to handle and it overwhelms her to the point of not being able to hear what they are really saying. This prevents her from helping them. I don't like it but it is what it is. If I try (and I haven't for at least three years now) to discuss something with her about the boys I get accused of trying to control her or worse she will take it out on the boys. The fact that they have come to trust me and they know it will not get back to her makes a big difference. It does take time.

[david]

The therapist helped me the most in talking to the boys. What I learned was I couldn't just do or say the first thing the T suggested. I had to be me and do what or say what I thought best. I went back and forth many times with the T. This helped the T understand where I was coming from and also helped me figure out what I was trying to accomplish. I am a much better parent because of that and I have my ex to thank.

[Thunderstruck]

Thanks for the advice. You all may not know, but I personally am new to this situation so I know it'll be a learning curve. My first reaction was I don't need to go, and I told SO to go alone but he felt that it was going to be trouble either way whether I went or not. So we made the call for me to go but not be at the exchange (D8 likes having me around and asks to hang out with me when I'm not there so we didn't feel it would be an issue with her). The more we think about the situation, the more we think he was being set up for failure from the beginning. She couldn't have seen me at the festival since she was at the exchange spot. So maybe this is her preparing for mediation, trying to get D8 to "hate" her father so that the X can get more custody.    uBPDx left the exchange before even seeing that I wasn't there.

That's really hard, david. It sucks so much, EOW isn't enough time to counteract two weeks of hate being poured into their ears. I think you had the perfect response to their brainwashing: "I love you and I always will". I told SO that his loving and caring actions will far outweigh her hateful words in the end. Patience and persistence.

[DreamGirl]

I'm on a learning curve too.  

I don't believe in "right" or "wrong" ways to deal with these very complex issues - we are all doing the best we can. I also think you are putting your best effort forward and that you care very much about your SD and her well-being. That's all anyone can ever ask for.

It's a lot like what david discussed when it came to his therapist, you have to stay true to yourself and to your values. I didn't always do that, and it cost me dearly. I stooped to "her" level (which was in essence "my" level too at that point) because I felt justified in it. There isn't anything wrong with you giving them a little room to figure the parenting time out... .  if she asked you nicely, or asked you to lunch to discuss her fears, I can tell that you'd be all for it. She is scared to death about having you in her daughter's life which invokes those abandonment fears (and black and white thinking), that is mostly what this is all about really. You just don't speak her language.  

It's the same way with parental alienation; we can get caught up in the alienation ourselves because we are on the defense. Literally pushing the kiddo into the arms of the alienating parent.

Have you seen Warshak's book Divorce Poison?

We also have a workshop that discusses the complex issues of alienated children .

You have mediation coming up, that's good. It depends on how determined she is if this is going to continue to be an ongoing issue.

When I look at your situation - correct me for any off-base observations - I feel like she's become very hyper-focused on you. The simple idea of you (not specifically you as a person) is a major trigger for her, so much that she has seen a ghost of you sitting in the passenger seat. She blames you for every argument and for brainwashing your SO. She's displaying some pretty irrational and unreasonable behavior here - and I feel like perhaps you are the "targeted" person here.

It may very well benefit you in the long run. It might be better that she hates you rather then her ex right now, at least until you can get yourself a court order and possibly a therapist involved.  

[Thunderstruck]

When I look at your situation - correct me for any off-base observations - I feel like she's become very hyper-focused on you. The simple idea of you (not specifically you as a person) is a major trigger for her, so much that she has seen a ghost of you sitting in the passenger seat. She blames you for every argument and for brainwashing your SO. She's displaying some pretty irrational and unreasonable behavior here - and I feel like perhaps you are the "targeted" person here.

It may very well benefit you in the long run. It might be better that she hates you rather then her ex right now, at least until you can get yourself a court order and possibly a therapist involved.  

Funny, SO just minutes ago got an e-mail from uBPDx saying that D8 is OCD now, has behavioral problems, is physically sick at the thought of going to SO's house this weekend, and wants his last name dropped all because D8 doesn't like me around. So, yeah, I'd say I'm the target.

Every time SO has her, our conversation goes like this:

Thunderstruck: "You guys have your alone time, I don't need to be there."

SO: ":)8 just asked about when she gets to see you because she has so much fun with you. Completely unprovoked. I was very careful to not even mention your name."

Thunderstruck: "Awwww" and my heart melts and I want to go play hide and seek with her. I'm so weak. 

But now her mom is telling us the complete opposite story? So I don't know if uBPDx is threatened by my presence and projecting her own issues onto her daughter, or if D8 is just telling her mom what she thinks her mom wants to hear. ::shrug:: When D8 is around us she tells us and anyone who will listen that she "hates" her mom and her mom's boyfriend. So maybe she says that because she thinks that's what we want to hear?

This is all so complicated.

[DreamGirl]

My heart would probably melt too... .  and then I'd be frustrated that it all has to be so difficult.   

This is all so complicated.

It is all so complicated.    

What do you say to SD8 when she says she hates her Mama?

Do you think she hates her Mama?

[Thunderstruck]

What do you say to SD8 when she says she hates her Mama?

Do you think she hates her Mama?

I ask why, and she'll say "My mom yells a lot". The conversation never gets further than that.

No, I don't believe that she does. But I believe she doesn't like the stress from the 2,000 questions and yelling that accompanies going home at the end of the weekend, which is probably why she doesn't want to leave.

[DreamGirl]

But I believe she doesn't like the stress from the 2,000 questions and yelling that accompanies going home at the end of the weekend, which is probably why she doesn't want to leave.

You are probably right.

Kiddos experience stress at transition time. My own kids do and neither parent is discouraging the relationship with the other parent.

My stepdaughters used to all cry when they would come to our house - and then they would cry when they had to leave.

Mama encouraged it. Telling them how much she would miss them! She's going to be so sad while they're gone! Tears, hugs, loving... .  dramatics. My middle stepdaughter used to cry and say "I want my mommy" until the door literally shut. She was merely feeding off her Mama's sadness and tears. It's what kids do... .  

So when it was time to leave our house, they merely thought that is what you do when you say goodbye to the parent you were leaving.

Every single divorced parenting book out there will tell you not to do that. To make transitions easier, you should encourage the relationship with the other parent, prepare them for the exchange, and tell them it will all be OK. 

So that's what we did. They realized that it didn't have to be drama - even when Mama wanted to make it that way. Now, the girls comfort themselves and their mom, tell her it will all be OK (not their job, but still).

They are coping, just like we are.

They also only have the skills of children - so they are truly the ones who need our help in this. And man, oh man can a pwBPD make that difficult.

I think your SD has some learned behavior here. A child who is not being alienated usually will not bash a parent to the other parent - especially with such strong words as "hate". 

Douglas Darnall, PHd has this list of symptoms:

Symptoms of Parental Alienation

Copyright 1997 by Douglas Darnall, Ph.D.

To prevent the devastating effects of Parental Alienation, you must begin by recognizing the symptoms of PA. You will notice that many of the symptoms or behaviors focus on the parent. When the child exhibits hatred and vilifies the targeted parent, then the condition becomes parental alienation syndrome. After reading the list, don't get discouraged when you notice that some of your own behaviors have been alienating. This is normal in even the best of parents. Instead, let the list help sensitize you to how you are behaving and what you are saying to your children.

1. Giving children choices when they have no choice about visits. Allowing the child to decide for themselves to visit when the court order says there is no choice sets up the child for conflict. The child will usually blame the non-residential parent for not being able to decide to choose whether or not to visit. The parent is now victimized regardless of what happens; not being able to see his children or if he sees them, the children are angry.

2. Telling the child "everything" about the marital relationship or reasons for the divorce is alienating. The parent usually argues that they are "just wanting to be honest" with their children. This practice is destructive and painful for the child. The alienating parent's motive is for the child to think less of the other parent.

3. Refusing to acknowledge that children have property and may want to transport their possessions between residences.

4. Resisting or refusing to cooperate by not allowing the other parent access to school or medical records and schedules of extracurricular activities.

5. A parent blaming the other parent for financial problems, breaking up the family, changes in lifestyle, or having a girlfriend/boyfriend, etc.

6. Refusing to be flexible with the visitation schedule in order to respond to the child's needs. The alienating parent may also schedule the children in so many activities that the other parent is never given the time to visit. Of course, when the targeted parent protests, they are described as not caring and selfish.

7. Assuming that if a parent had been physically abusive with the other parent, it follows that the parent will assault the child. This assumption is not always true.

8. Asking the child to choose one parent over another parent causes the child considerable distress. Typically, they do not want to reject a parent, but instead want to avoid the issue. The child, not the parent, should initiate any suggestion for change of residence.

9. Children will become angry with a parent. This is normal, particularly if the parent disciplines or has to say "no". If for any reason the anger is not allowed to heal, you can suspect parental alienation. Trust your own experience as a parent. Children will forgive and want to be forgiven if given a chance. Be very suspicious when the child calmly says they cannot remember any happy times with you or say anything they like about you.

10. Be suspicious when a parent or stepparent raises the question about changing the child's name or suggests an adoption.

11. When children cannot give reasons for being angry towards a parent or their reasons are very vague without any details.

12. A parent having secrets, special signals, a private rendezvous, or words with special meanings are very destructive and reinforce an on-going alienation.

13. When a parent uses a child to spy or covertly gather information for the parent's own use, the child receives a damaging message that demeans the victimized parent.

14. Parents setting up temptations that interfere with the child's visitation.

15. A parent suggesting or reacting with hurt or sadness to their child having a good time with the other parent will cause the child to withdraw and not communicate. They will frequently feel guilty or conflicted not knowing that it's "okay" to have fun with their other parent.

16. The parent asking the child about his/her other parent's personal life causes the child considerable tension and conflict. Children who are not alienated want to be loyal to both parents.

17. When parents physically or psychologically rescue the children when there is no threat to their safety. This practice reinforces in the child's mind the illusion of threat or danger, thereby reinforcing alienation.

18. Making demands on the other parent that is contrary to court orders.

19. Listening in on the children's phone conversation they are having with the other parent.

20. One way to cause your own alienation is making a habit of breaking promises to your children. In time, your ex-spouse will get tired of having to make excuses for you.