How to disentangle?

[doubleAries]

Hi All, I usually post over on some of the other boards, but knew that sooner or later, I'd find myself over here on this one. And here I am.

I find myself in a pickle and could use some advice. Here's the background:

Husband is diagnosed bipolar 1 with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), ASPD, and NPD. His original diagnosis in 1987 was paranoid schizophrenic with manic depression, but he doesn't have hallucinations, so dx was recently changed. We've been "married" (if you want to call it that--there's a piece of paper saying it's true) for 16 1/2 years (together for 1 1/2 years prior to marriage). We do not have children (THANK GOD).

I outright owned a piece of property before I met him, and he moved onto my property. Around the time we got married, I started a business (international wholesale mail order). Around this time, husband had his first big manic phase since I'd met him and it was a doozy. He ended up in jail for a felony menacing charge (being bipolar and ASPD though, he still to this day believes he was being picked on--screw that stupid postman he threatened with a knife for no sane reason!). He lost his job, and started working with me about 8 months after the business was formed (sole proprietorship, I'm listed as the proprietor, I'm the only signator on the business account, but he has a debit card--we have seperate personal accounts from the business and each other). Husband is doing a really good natural treatment that makes him a productive working member of society, but has not restored his abilty to have friendships/intimate relationships (I'm being polite here). Husband has become something of a partner, although he only actually functions as an employee.

For some years, I have been trying to disentangle, but he's like a pit bull that has it's teeth latched onto my pant leg. There's all the blow ups you'd expect from someone with a major mental illness and a couple personality disorders (including the projection, rages, etc, etc, etc). I've tried to get him to leave many times, and in anger, he agrees--it's even his own idea usually--but then he goes on to pretend that never happened. And won't leave. No matter how many times he says he wants to leave, he won't do it. Finally, this past December, in desperation, I moved out, into a rental about a mile and a half away. Psychologically and emotionally, this was an excellent choice. legally--I don't know. There is absolutely no going back now.

We've filed for divorce quite a few times, and then called it off because there were too many entanglements that weren't resolved. My therapist (who is also husbands therapist) has recommended untangling the entanglements first, then filing for divorce. That is what I am trying to do now, with no success. Because the goals I had 18 years ago on the unimproved property I bought are no longer realistic goals, I have offered to sell husband the property (or better yet, trade it to him for his share in the business--over the years, it went from a cottage industry to an almost quarter million dollar business last year). He is expecting an inheritance from his fathers death, next month. My preference is to trade him the property for the business--something he agreed to, until he saw that I actually meant it. Now he just wants to buy the property and remain business partners. I do not want to be business partners, spouses, or friends (we never were friends--that was the problem to begin with). The few times we are able to actually discuss any of these issues (without him trying to avoid the discussion by becoming verbally abusive), he agrees, but will not follow through. I wanted to go to the DMV last week and take my name off the truck he's using and have him take his name off my jeep. But he became "too busy". And, I suspect, will remain so.

I can't just forge his name on papers obviously. But I can't get his co-operation. Does anyone have any advice for how I can move this along?

doubleAries

[ForeverDad]

Hmm.  What he's done is to discourage you from actually doing something, for years.  Worst case scenario, he can make it an ordeal, but he can't stop you if you're determined to move forward.  I presume you've sought legal advice on your options to disentangle from someone who will delay, obstruct and sabotage?  Sounds like you need to take the emotional impact out of it and just treat it, hard as it will be, as a business dissolution.  He can obstruct and delay but he can't block.

We've often concluded that the delays never end until the obstructor runs out of delay tactics.  As we say here, a divorce often doesn't reach settlement until we're on the court house steps walking in the door for Trial Day and no more delays possible.  (That actually happened to me - except my court house didn't have steps.)

This may not be much much help, just moral support, but there's only one direction to move forward.  We're here for you.

[Waddams]

this might be a bit of a shady, underhanded tactic, but could you agree to remain business partners for now and get the divorce and other disentangling done now?  and then disentangle business wise later?

and is he really a business partner?  if the business is all in your name, then could you just fire him?  if the property is all yours, could you evict him?  or does the fact he's married mean what's yours is his regardless of what's on the paperwork.  that's how it works here in my state, but i don't think it's that way everywhere.

if he won't cooperate and you want to get away from him, then you're gonna have to do it without his cooperation.  unfortunately, most people on this board seem to experience this.  perhaps talking to a few lawyers that specialize in more than just divorce, such as business law, could help?  and maybe talking to the DMV to see if there's a way to go ahead and force getting names off each other's vehicles?  could you sell yours and get your own in your name only?

just trying to brainstorm ideas to get you moving.

[ForeverDad]

Keep in mind that you should not feel guilted or obligated (F.O.G. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt) to share information with him.  If the marriage were healthy, functional and had a future, then it would be a different matter of course.  But it's dysfunctional and the marriage's future is dim at best, so it's entirely appropriate to keep some things, especially strategies, confidential and private.  You know you can treat him fairly, but sadly you can't expect reciprocation from him.

Take the cars as an example.  (I'm assuming here that you're not in any financial hardship right now.)  You don't tell him, "Since you won't agree to take your name off my title and mine off yours, then I'm going to sell the car."  No, avoid triggering further resistance.  Simply trade it in for another, possibly setting the stage in the days/weeks beforehand by making comments about its deficiencies.  Since he's on the title, he might refuse to sign off on it, but maybe not.  Or maybe you changing cars might help you work out a deal to retitle his auto too, but without triggering him.  Just make sure he stays off the title of the new car.

During a divorce the court will force a separation of vehicular ownership along with everything else.

Before you do all this, do as Waddams wrote, get confidential expert legal opinions.  You have significant assets and you shouldn't 'guess' and 'hope' how it will turn out.  Seek expert legal guidance, plan your overall strategies.

[doubleAries]

Thanks bunches!

I live in Colorado--even though it seems outrageous to me, the legal system sees my property as half his because we are married--no matter that he never paid a single dime towards it and his name isn't on the deed. All assets are considered equally owned, whether they existed before the marriage or not. This holds true for the business as well, especially since he has a debit card for the account. I don't believe husband knows this to be legally the case, but he senses it on some emotional level, that he can tie himself to me that way. In the past, when he's become manic, I have tried to get him to give me the debit card so he doesn't go berzerk and spend all the money, but he won't give it to me (if I just sneaked into his wallet and took it, not only would he know and become enraged, he could just get another one in a couple of days). Once, years ago, when he was in particularly bad shape, I went to the bank and asked them to cut off his access to his card--explained to them what was going. They said they couldn't do that and neither could I.

I have not yet spoken to an attorney. I need to find one that has some understanding of mental illness, and doesn't just want to barge ahead with the usual slew of threatening paperwork. THAT, I am positive, will escalate things to a very ugly scenario (he is, after all, also diagnosed anti-social personality disorder. As a side note: NOTE TO SELF: wth was I thinking? Don't marry crazy people! But that's for other boards... .  )

Husbands mental illness has made him extremely rigid and opposed to any changes (our T says he has never met anyone before so rigid). He has a 6th sense for what's up. If I started talking about selling my jeep, his antennae would be up in an instant. He would either argue endlessly about what an impractical thing that would be to do, or agree and just "not get around to" signing off on the title. Note that he recently bought a new vehicle that is solely in his name though (even though I'm paying half the insurance  )

I'm in something of a bind in that I signed a 6 month lease on my rental which is up at the end of May. If I am not going to renew, the landlord will want to start advertising it for rent next month. I'm looking for another home (have excellent credit and bank has pre-approved me for an FHA loan). One option I am considering is trying make these giant changes as slowly as possible so husband doesn't completely tweak out on me. To that end, perhaps I could just allow him to purchase my property from me, and remain business partners for the time being (and yes, FOG does play a role here, even though I don't want it to--husbands identity has become the business. To him, this is what proves he is a productive member of society, and frankly, he is not going to do well on his own without me managing his mental illness for him).

I have to finish my books/taxes for last year this week, and get the tax forms to the bank before I get the actual pre-approval. I have to find a house (found a fabulous deal last week that sold just as I was learning about it, dang it!), and I have to work 6 days a week (we just finished a trade show and are swamped with outgoing orders). I'm pretty stressed out.

I guess in some ways, I'm not quite to the legal parts yet, just at the beginning of it, but am overwhelmed somewhat and am seeking brainstorming ideas from others who've done this already. I do have fears about physical violence, and yes, will call the police immediately if it happens. But would prefer to at least try to avoid all of that, if there are ways for me to not remain paralyzed, but also not be the cause of escalating things too much (like snotty lawyer letters or pushing too many buttons at once).

Colorado has a divorce option that is rather attractive--if there are no children and no disagreements about division of assets, a divorce can be finalized in 3 months by a magistrate without even going to court. This is what I'm shooting for. Trying, anyway. I don't want to cheat husband in any way--he has worked hard over the years, as best he could, to make the business a success (too bad he couldn't work that hard toward making the marriage a success!). But I would like to avoid a knock down drag out over all this. It doesn't seem like he really wants a knock down drag out either. he just wants things to remain the same so he feels the slight illusion of security. But that status quo is unacceptable--he's not BPD, but there are a lot of similarities (bipolar, ASPD, NPD).

What he wants, plainly, is to attach himself to my stability and push the person who provided it (me) out of the picture. Not physically--he understands somewhere deep inside himself that that would be security suicide. But, similar to BPD's, he wants me to be an accomodating shell of a human who will provide stability and security, and accept the blame for everything from his feelings to his shortcomings mentally. He wants me to take care of him while he endlessly screams at me that he hates my guts. Been there, done that, bought that t-shirt.

I'm not sure what to do first. I talked to him on the phone this morning and asked him to get the titles for the vehicles out so we can change the names on them tomorrow. He said he would, and MAYBE he actually will. He might also get "too busy" with "more practical important things" and "forget" (this was the 4th reminder--reminders are considered "rash, impulsive, drama queen behavior" on my part "in order to be the center of attention"--you gotta love projection, eh?  )

But even if this actually happens, I'm not sure what to do next. I have to find a house, but I have to get these taxes done, but I have to get my orders out, but my lease is almost up---AAARRRGGGHHH!

My T thinks the best way is to do the disentangling first, then file for divorce. I agree, but am not entirely sure how to proceed. Maybe I'm just trapped in my desire to have an amicable, drama free, rubber stamped divorce, and that may not actually happen. I worry that if I really start pushing things, especially with a lawyer, he will become destructive. Not just violent toward me, but tearing stuff up that belongs to the business (the business is still located on my property, where I no longer live and he does--I have to find a suitable home that has a workshop building I can move the business to!)

Geez, I feel like my head is going to explode. Thanks for at least listening. And I appreciate the support and advice. And open to more!

[ForeverDad]

Get some confidential conversations with lawyers now.  You may even need referrals to other more specialized lawyers.  Otherwise you may spend time and energy doing what you think is good preparation and goundwork and then find out you had it all a$$ backwards and wasted months doing the wrong things.  The legal issues are nothing like everyday common sense, they are the accumulation (=baggage) of decades and centuries of evolving laws, policies, procedures, case law, etc.

For example, what if you buy a house and then go to a lawyer and find out that buying a house was exactly the #1 thing to avoid?  See what I mean?  It might be great or it might make things even more complicated then they already are.  Get more than one legal opinion/consultation.  Find a lawyer who knows what to do and that you're comfortable working with for the next year or probably longer.

Sorry, better to find out in advance where you stand and what to do, anything else will just add to your delay, pain and financial expenses.

[doubleAries]

That's excellent advice. And I'm going to take it. I guess i'll just renew my rental lease for now. It does occur to me that if I buy another house, he could be entitled to that too. AND if I commit myself to a large loan for a house, and then we start battling over the business, money could become very tight indeed.

Geez, this is what has paralyzed me for so long and made me stay in this horrible "relationship" for so long. I feel like there's a leech on my neck and I can't get it off without tearing myself to shreds. This is an incredibly important lesson about getting serious about dealing with codependency.

[ForeverDad]

I didn't say to continue renting.  You have a few weeks for consultations to get an idea of which options are best for you.  But if you do rent, try to make it for a short term - to keep your options open and let you keep flexibility in the near future.

Another reason not to sign a long lease... .  if you do file for divorce, then you wouldn't want to continue living with him during the divorce, right?  If he's unlikely to leave and let you stay, then you can let the lease lapse, find a new apartment and let him find his own place to live.  Yes, doing this would trigger him for sure, but you'll have to cross that bridge at some point anyway, can't put it off forever.

See how everything hinges on getting some consultations, getting expert legal advice on which options are better than others, which priorities to have on upcoming decisions such as housing, etc?

Oh, another thought... .  He may try to get you to promise rights, privileges, ownership, partnership, etc that goes far beyond what the law and courts would require otherwise.  Don't make anything legally binding until you get legal advice.  Your case is already complicated, don't give up any leverage you might have.  Always feel free to delay demands with "I'll have to think about it" or whatever.

IMHO

[doubleAries]

Thanks, ForeverDad--

Actually, we aren't living together now. That's why I'm renting. He's living on my bought and paid for property, while I'm down the road a piece, renting.

My landlord already cut me some slack when I first moved in, and let me do a 6 month lease instead of a 1 year lease. I don't think he'll let me do month to month after May.

My situation isn't just complicated. It's so insanely complicated that every day, at least once, I consider just up and "running away from home". Then reality shatters my tenative little fantasy, when I remind myself that everything I'd be leaving behind is leaglly in my name. Sigh... .  

[DreamGirl]

Thanks bunches!

I live in Colorado--even though it seems outrageous to me, the legal system sees my property as half his because we are married--no matter that he never paid a single dime towards it and his name isn't on the deed.

I would definitely consult an attorney.

It's my understanding that this statement may not be accurate. You stated that you purchased the home before you became [common-law] married.

Has your house increased in value?

Colorado is an equitable distribution state. Anything the spouses had before marriage will usually not be included in Colorado divorce assets or Colorado divorce property. The only property that comes into the court's distribution is that legally classified as property of the marriage subject to Colorado Revised Statute §14-10-113.

www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl2002a/sl_270.pdf

Colorado Revised Statute §14-10-113:

(4) SUBJECT TO THE PROVISIONS OF SUBSECTION (7) OF THIS SECTION, an asset of

a spouse acquired prior to the marriage or in accordance with subsection (2) (a) or

(2) (b) of this section shall be considered as marital property, for purposes of this

article only, to the extent that its present value exceeds its value at the time of the

marriage or at the time of acquisition if acquired after the marriage.

The way I read that is that he is only entitled to the division of the increased value of the home. i.e. say you bought it for $200,000 and it's now worth $300,000. He would only be vested in $100,000 of the house (not half) and that would be where "equitable division" would be determined.

My own house has depreciated in value since I bought it ten years ago, so it was not considered a "marital asset" or even subject to "property division", when I (more recently) inquired about this subject matter.  

I'm certainly not an attorney and may be full of it, but when I faced this in my own life, this is is how it was presented to me.

[nowheretogo]

Hi doubleAries,

I just had to comment on how I can't believe how very similar your "H" seems to my stbxH!

I am so sorry for your entangled situation, and know how it is to get caught up into this kind of web/trap. 

Keep doing the legal legwork/consultations to get the best advice and keep moving forward, forward, forward.  It won't be easy, but you CAN do it!

nwtg

[doubleAries]

Huh. An attorney last year told me all assets are shared assets.

We aren't common-law married. We are legally through the state married. My property taxes have gone up, so I assume it has gone up in value.

This is so frustrating--look here is the situation, which is not entirely legal maters, so I apoligize if I'm using the legal board as a "whining" board. BUT... .  

I bought this property 23 years ago, completely unimproved and with no electric or water to the property (though it does have a springs that I have water rights to). It was $15,000 for 40.5 acres. I ended up splitting it with 2 other people, and we eventually subdivided it legally, with seperate deeds, 13 1/2 acres each. My driveway is a legal easement across one of the adjoining properties. The utility poles are over a mile away, and utility company says I have to pay to bring poles to the property (the quote I got 23 years ago was $138,000--just to bring the poles, and I was pretty dirt poor--ain't happening, solar power it is). My intent was to build my own home--pull myself up by the boot straps as it were. Go NC with Sadistic witch BPD mother, spend some time alone in the great outdoors building something for myself as I sorted out my life, shovel in hand. Indeed, I dug a foundation for a house by hand with a shovel--because that's what I could afford. Worked temporary jobs here and there to make a little pile of money to feed myself and pay for the land while I worked on building. It was an owner finance property, with no principle payment penalties, and i paid it off in 3 years, before I even got to the balloon payment.

Fast forward 5 years--met stbx at a job site. I didn't have a car at the time, he did. We carpooled. He didn't have a place to live, and was expecting to go to another bigger job in a few months in Aspen. I told him he could stay with me in my little camping trailer until he went to Aspen. He quit the job (in retrospect, I understand now that was because he knew he was headed for a whopper of a manic phase, but at the time, he had other "reasons" and there we were. In a 16 foot camp trailer. I had not gotten as far along as I am now in my "self improvement" reality. A long ways from it in fact. Grew up getting the stuffing beat out of me and told what a greedy filthy selfish pig I was, so the poor treatment I received from stbx looked "normal" and healthy by comparison. Stbx just kept hanging around. At the time, I thought it was because he liked me and was comfortable there. I now know it was/is because he is extremely rigid and intolerant of change or anything even vaguely resembling upheavel (understandably--he's bipolar and desperately seeking stability, although he's substituting fixed rigidilty for stability). He got another job and I decided to start a business, rather than a constant cycle of temp jobs. He didn't last too long at the new job--quit when he was struggling to hide the paranoid delusions. That's when we got married. 2 weeks later, he had a psychotic break. This was my introduction to severe mental illness. It wasn't pretty.

After I got him into treatment, and he began to stabilize, he was filled with angry shame and frantic (work, to him, proves "functionability". I did not know this was part and parcel of the mental illness. He wasn't delusional anymore, so he wasn't mentally ill anymore, in my view. I DID see this as something I needed to "fix". Trying to placate angry people is ingrained in my soul since birth. I asked him to work with me, and if he didn't like it he could find another job. My plan was to have a little cottage industry business on the side to pay my way through building the house, then after the house was built, build up the business. When asked what his goals or ambitions were, he always said/says "I don't know". Stbx was (can you believe it?) insecure about everything, and told me he couldn't live like this, needed to make more money to feel secure. I was certainly emotionally unhealthy myself, but even I knew money wasn't going to solve insecurity. But nonetheless, I went along, building up the business instead of the house. First, stbx said he needed $50,000 per year to become secure. When we reached that number, guess what? Right. Still not secure. He needed to make even more. Rinse, cycle repeat. For 18 years.

There is still no house on the property. We have fought tooth and nail for years about this. From his perspective, these fights are simply me personally attacking him, trying to make him feel bad about himself. And thusly, he lashes back. (A few days ago, he told me "I had no idea you were so unhappy about the situation here with the house"   I reminded him of all the intense fights we have had over every single improvement to the property, no matter how big or small [they've all been small, because I believed small wouldn't be so frightening for him--WRONG]. so did he "forget" this? No--his brain doesn't make the connection. After all, all those things I complained about, about the house--or lack thereof--weren't complaints about houses--they were personal attacks meant to make him feel bad about himself).

He's bipolar 1 (mixed) with psychotic features, ASPD, and NPD. I'm a codependent adult survivor of severe childhood abuse. I'm interested in self improvement, he is not ("boring psychological crap". I am desperate for someone to love me and value me, he's moody, distant, withdrawn, and angry. Disaster waitng to happen.

For years, he has complained bitterly about our life (even as he is willing to do nothing--and I mean NOTHING--to improve it. Improve means change. Change means instability) and when I have said "then why are you still here?" he has always answered the same answer--"because I'm afraid to leave and start over". Not "because I love you and want to work things out"--I don't fit anywhere into the equation. In fact, it's clear I have become an obstacle that enrages him (he told me several months ago that he knew I made the trailer too hot on purpose--in order to dominate him). Yet he is dependent on me. Something he cannot accept or believe, because he's able to work, and if he can work, then he must be independent and functional. He's a workaholic, but incapable of interpersonal interaction. I have been trying to get him to leave for the past 10 years. he blows up and says that's exactly what he's going to do. Then he pretends that never happened, and continues on with what I call "the regular routine".

Still no house. The camp trailer is now 23 years older (never intended it to be a "home", just a place to stay in while I built a house). Every single improvement to the property (and there aren't many--it's pretty hill-billy looking!) has come at a huge emotional price. The blow ups are staggering. I fell, for many years, into the "it's easier to not have friends / it's easier to not build buildings / it's easier to walk on eggshells" way of thinking--which did not work, of course. I'm 5'7" and 120 pounds. When stbx feels cranky (often), he tells me I'm fat, lazy, psychotic, and ugly. But he still won't leave. Finally, I moved into another camp trailer on the property (massive blow up about that). This offered some relief, but when winter came, I had no way to keep it warm. I moved to the rental I'm in now (which triggered yet another massive blow up). My first couple of weeks in a real house (after 23 years) were like waking up from a really bad dream. There's no going back.

however, "the regular routine" still exists. Stbx and I discuss how to split assets and move on. Sometimes he agrees, sometimes he does not. Doesn't matter, because either way, he pretends it never happened and goes back to his cattle rut circle way of living. Today he was supposed to bring the titles for the vehicles over so we could go get our names off each others cars. he didn't show up, and won't answer his cell phone. Tomorrow he'll claim that he was ready but I didn't hold my end up or something, and that now he's too busy, it'll have to wait. Until when? STOP PRESSURING ME! WHY ARE YOU SUCH A DRAMA QUEEN? WHY IS IT ALWAYS ABOUT YOU?" I've done this movie so many times, I know exactly how it will go. It is, after all, "the regular routine".

My business is absolutely booming right now. I did double the sales last year as I did the year before. But i'm afraid to keep investing in it. It looks like I cannot get him to do anything (the irrisistable force meets the immovable object). I will likely have to go the lawyer route. I have 2 sets of friends with businesses I watched do this--they were not able to remain partners like they thought they could, and fought over the business. Went to court, judge orders them to sell the business. Business doesn't sell, they're ordered to liquidate it. After the auction, they don't have enough to pay the lawyers.

If that's the case, I should liquidate now, donate the property to charity (no one would buy that hill-billy hell hole), get the divorce, and RUN AWAY as far as I possibly can.

Sounds stupid, but it's the only solution I see right now. Unless anybody else has something else. my friends here keep coming up with ideas about fair division. Great. then i remind them "Yeah, that's a good idea. Now let's pretend that didn't happen". It's not that he doesn't agree to equitable splits--it's that he won't sign or do ANYTHING.

I feel sick to my stomach. I really do.

[gina louise]

doubleAries,

I'm sure this was not what you signed up for when you said "I do".  I am so sorry that it's this complicated and further complicated by your H's mental illness.

Besides confidential Legal advice-can you lay out the most pressing tasks for yourself in order?

Like... .  Tax time is a month away-get that done first?

then reassess living spaces/rent/ lease options?

Then figure out looking at past taxes, and profit/loss whether your business is solvent-and should be maintained/kept-or perhaps you find another job?

Don't even attempt to tackle this all at once, Maybe take the most urgent tasks, one at a time and break it down?

I'm no expert-just a fellow struggler.

Sending you strength, clarity and prayer.

GL

[mamachelle]

DoubleAries

I can totally understand why you are feeling overwhelmed.

I think that getting legal advice from multiple attorneys would help. If you can find an attorney that does business law, contentious divorce with mentally ill spouses, and real estate then you've struck gold. I have one here that does all that but he's not in your state unfortunately.

Since you have no kids the most important thing is your business so focus on protecting that. 

If you can't then you need to figure out a strategy where you can be safe and also make a living.

What I like about a good attorney is that they can help you strategize and remove the emotion from the process. You need one that respects women and understands the mentally ill spouse in your case is also dangerous.

As for disentangling before the divorce and sharing a T with your H, well, I'm not so sure optimism about this being possible is realistic other than what s outlined above in the posts of others.

Also concerned about sharing a T because people with these cluster B disorders can easily fool a therapist so just be careful and trust your gut.

For now, operate under the radar. Pretend you are depressed and disengage as much as possible as in the oft quoted ' warning signs you are dating a loser.' By dr. Joe carver. It's the best advice for disentangling I've ever read.

Save the car titles and anything else stressful until after you get legal counsel.

[Matt]

Can you fire him?

Just... .  fire him?

That won't resolve all the other issues, but it might be a big step toward disentangling things... .  

[doubleAries]

Thanks again, all.

This is the only place I know to go where others will understand marrying and then divorcing a crazy person, and the mind boggling minutia that goes along with it.

Let me look back and reply in order:

gina louise--

thanks. A lot.

Ah, yes--good ol' tax time. I'm up to my ears in receipts and papers right now. The business is definitely solvent. In fact--booming. I do have to take all this in some order, I'm trying to figure that order out. I have 2 weeks to decide if I'm renewing my lease or not. a little longer on the taxes. I live in the middle of nowhere. Jobs and good lawyers are scarce, if existent. This has been my job for 17 years. I can't just go get a job--this business is in my name. I have obligations to my customers, too.

hmmm... .  

mamachelle--

an attorney that does business law, mental case divorces, and real estate! Does such a thing exist? Most of the lawyers in my county are bankruptcy or ambulance chaser attorneys.

I just came froma 2 hour session with my T. He is actually a really good counselor and I'm lucky to have found him. He did help me "strategize" tonight, and as he is stbx's counselor as well, he fully understands the situation. He thinks I should type up an agreement, take it to stbx and tell him "this is what I want to do. You can come with me to sign and notarize it right now. If you do not want to do that, then I am going to sign it and notarize it myself and file it at the courthouse with divorce papers." As frightening as this prospect is, I also think it is the only thing that will work. I have to be the one to move this forward--stbx will never take any action whatsoever. My T understands that stbx isn't clinging to the "relationship"--he's paralyzed by fear of instability. And believes stbx will never have any real stability until he becomes independent.

The truth of the matter is that my business may become a casualty of all this. Stbx is clinging to that more than anything else. So am I.

I'm not convinced stbx will continue his counseling once all this blows up. He claims to have benifited from it (and I think he has), but what's that got to do with anything?

T is well aware of cluster B's ability to fool others. And stbx's history of it. For the time being, he (T) relies on me to fill him in on what's really going on. He's a good T, and not fooled by the "none of this is my fault" lines. He's also not encouraging me to stay in the r/s just so he has eyes/ears on what the deal is. I've gone to a few of T and stbx's sessions (last fall when stbx had a relapse) and was amazed at T's ability to ferret out the truth--simply, cleanly, and without triggering stbx into a rage. It was nothing short of amazing to watch. He knows how to immediately get past the presentation to the unraveling that's going on underneath it. Amazing, it truly is.

You know, I read an article on here about leaving a BPD--I need to read it again. For the emotional part at least. Pretend to be confused and depressed. I've tried that on him before and was impressed how well it worked--stbx was just completely uninterested in engaging if I seemed "needy" of emotional support or cheering up. Good thinking--thanks for the reminder!

Matt--

I HAVE fired him. Repeatedly. He screams "ARE YOU FIRING ME?" and then after he calms down, "the regular routine" comes into play again. He simply pretends that didn't happen, and resumes work. When I say "hey--you were fired, remember?" we have a repeat of the previous. As many times as I have been willing to play Abbot and Costello. I finally get worn down and give in (especially when there about 35 orders sitting there waiting to be processed).

Some friends came over this morning and tried to help me brainstorm. Finally how I got them to understand, is by every great idea they came up with, I said "That's a good idea! Now let's pretend that didn't happen".

What I am mostly up against here is the pretending-this-isn't-happening issue.

So perhaps T is correct. At first he referred me to a mediator, then changed his mind and said it wouldn't do any good, because disagreement of asset divisions isn't the problem. Avoidance is. I can't make him co-operate or participate. I was really, really, really hoping we could take care of all this and then get a quiet divorce. I know that stbx isn't very emotionally invested in the r/s, so that's not the problem.

What I would *like* to see happen is I trade stbx my property for his share of the business (and divorce him). Then hire him back until he finds another job or I can replace him (it will take at least 2 people to replace him--he's a workaholic). He has agreed to this before. But like I said--it doesn't matter if he agrees or disagrees--he pretends that didn't happen/isn't going to happen. So I think that's what I'll type up. I think it's quite fair for both of us (though this still leaves me with no cash, a business with nowhere to put it, and looking for somewhere to live). I don't want to live on the hill-billy property anymore anyway, and think it would be a nightmare to sell, but stbx is shoehorned in, wouldn't have to move (which is his greatest fear), and doesn't mind living in a box at the top of a mud slide.

I'll struggle for a bit, but be able to pull it all back together.

That is IF this could happen. If a court could make it happen. I can't. And I'm not exactly filled with faith in the legal/judicial system. Stbx has a brother who is a district court family judge that we don't really get along with--if stbx's brother is any indication of what judges will do (and he is), my stomach hurts again.

[mamachelle]

Hi DA

Here is a link to the article I was referencing. I've seen it used often here to help leaving folks-- at least back when I first started on these boards in 2005... .  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56157.20

It occurs to me that with the business, there is nothing stopping you from starting a few more businesses once the ink is dry on the divorce.

I work for a guy in a small but profitable company. It has been around 27 years. His brother is part owner. He and his brother really can't stand each other.  My boss is also a part owner in his company. Neither brother really knows anything about the other brother's business. Both are "stealing" and concealing income from the other. Both have multiple other side businesses that they use to develop different aspects of their core business which the other brother has no investment in.

So, a possible solution would be to start a new S corp or LLC. Have that either take over and grow an aspect of the business that could be developed. These corps could also buy another smaller business. These businesses could also become a vendor for your core business as well.

You seem to be very good with the business end of things and I think that given the emotional attachment your Stbx has to the business that the more you can marginalize him the better.

I would definitely not  advise you to take a paper to him outlining your intents until you have consulted with an attorney or two. This will trigger him and could put you in real danger.

As for attorneys... .  well, I find that older attorneys have seen and done a lot. My attorney right now used to run a real estate business while simultaneously practicing as a family law attorney with some very wealthy clients. He has seen it all and done it all. I had another one back in the day that was a similar profile, older guy, again he had experience with dealing with all these things simply because he had been in business for 40 years.

Well, I hope this helps.

[Matt]

You're not taking strong, clear action - you're recycling with him - so he has come to see that you don't mean what you say.

When I say, "Fire him", I don't mean "Pretend to fire him" or "Threaten to fire him", I mean "fire him."

Plan it.  Do it in a public place, like an open area where others are nearby but not within hearing.  Make notes so you know exactly what you will say.  Consult with an attorney or an HR professional first to make sure you do it right.

"Your employment with [company] is terminated effective immediately.  You will be paid through the end of this week.  You will also be eligible for continuing benefits through [date].  Here is a letter which explains the details.  Here is a form for you to sign, acknowledging that you have received the termination letter;  you need to sign that and then we will give you your check.  I need your key and any other company property you may have before we give you your check.  You can take all your personal property - I'll wait while you box it up."  etc.

Have a third party present as a witness, and be prepared to call the police if necessary, if he won't give you his key and leave the property in a timely way, like 10 minutes or so.

Til you take strong, clear, consistent action to disentangle all these issues - employment and all the other issues you describe - nothing will change.

[ForeverDad]

I HAVE fired him. Repeatedly. He screams "ARE YOU FIRING ME?" and then after he calms down, "the regular routine" comes into play again. He simply pretends that didn't happen, and resumes work. When I say "hey--you were fired, remember?" we have a repeat of the previous. As many times as I have been willing to play Abbot and Costello. I finally get worn down and give in (especially when there about 35 orders sitting there waiting to be processed).

Most here have eventually realized that continuing contact after a relationship is over simply doesn't work or isn't worth the continuing stress, and certainly not long term.  The lines get blurred between work and relationship and the problems still never end.  Yes, he may be a good worker, but it's still a problem for you and the continuing contact makes it harder to stay on track with the next steps of disentanglement.  As you wrote, "I finally get worn down and give in."

Just saying.

[GaGrl]

Prior to terminating his employment, go to your bank and cancel his debit card (or do whatever the bank says needs to happen after you explain the circumstances).

If it were me, I would:

1) consult a lawyer about how best to do it, with full disclosure to the lawyer about the separation and divorce entanglement

2) have one impartial witness to the termination -- preferably the lawyer or a paralegal

3) put the termination notice in a letter, as FD suggests, with all relevant info (date of termination, wages owed, date through which benefits are paid, etc.)

4) get all company property at the time of termination -- debit card, keys... .  

5) change the locks to your business location immediately, even while the termination conversation is going on.

6) change the locks to your house, and anything else he has access to

7) detach as much as you can from his reaction, because he's going to have said reaction either at that point or later, anyway

[Matt]

Yes to Gagirl's point, any time you fire somebody, you need to be aware that he could file a lawsuit, and make sure you do everything properly, so you are not at legal risk.

An hour spent with an HR attorney should do it.

[syz]

Prior to terminating his employment, go to your bank and cancel his debit card (or do whatever the bank says needs to happen after you explain the circumstances).

If it were me, I would:

1) consult a lawyer about how best to do it, with full disclosure to the lawyer about the separation and divorce entanglement

2) have one impartial witness to the termination -- preferably the lawyer or a paralegal

3) put the termination notice in a letter, as FD suggests, with all relevant info (date of termination, wages owed, date through which benefits are paid, etc.)

4) get all company property at the time of termination -- debit card, keys... .  

5) change the locks to your business location immediately, even while the termination conversation is going on.

6) change the locks to your house, and anything else he has access to

7) detach as much as you can from his reaction, because he's going to have said reaction either at that point or later, anyway

You really need a good atty.  My sister went through a divorce in CO back in 2009.  She was hesitant to get an atty and ratchet up the hostility.  ex BiL is bipolar spectrum with NPD.  He was cheating with prostitutes and he physically abused her.  fortunately I made her call the police.  And then a restraining order applied...   She was initially very freaked out about that.  Once he moved back in a month later she came home one day and caught him with the OW she kicked him out.  He tried to commit suicide in front of the house 4 days later.  all that sunk him in the divorce she got full custody whereas with his previous wife they had 50/50 split.  He also kept her name off the deed on the house which was his prior to her marrying him.  If they hadn't refinanced in both their names should would have only been eligible for splitting the amount the house appreciated once they got married not the entire value of the house.   

So to be clear the house was valued at 600,000 at the time of the divorce, it was valued at 500,000 when they married.  He was convinced she was only owed 50,000.  Which turned out not to be true because of the refi.  They were married for 7 years I'm not sure if that changes things like it does in CA where if you are married for longer than 10 years that changes settlements. 

You really need to talk to an attorney.  I wouldn't make a single move even firing him without discussing it first.  But you may be in better stead with your property than you realize.  if his name is not on the deed you may only owe him the part it appreciated during your marriage. 

[doubleAries]

I have printed all this out so I can refer back to it often and when necessary.

I did accomplish partial success today. I spoke with an attorney, who seemed to mostly agree with what my T said. The attorney made a good point as well--he said if I sell stbx my property, not only will I have some money to work with while searching for another house, stbx will be the one dealing with the headache of selling it if he decides to leave somewhere down the road (fat chance of that--he's unable to make any decisions). Attorney actually said he'd just finished dealing with a divorce that involved a schizophrenic with personality disorders, pretty much the same situation--the mentally ill party agreed to various proposals but was mentally unable to act on them.

I asked the bank once to cut off access to stbx's debit card. They refused, and said only he could cancel his card (on MY account!) Attorney today said because there is no binding agreement about the card use. He recommended I don't do the whole thing all at once--that I sell stbx the property, and type out an agreement about business partnership and division of assets (that includes limiting debit card use), ask stbx to sign it. If he does, attach it to divorce papers and file them. If he doesn't, attach to divorce papers and file them anyway. He (like me) says it is unlikely a partnership between us can work. But says if I get myself into a stable position first, instead of renting with nowhere to put the business yet, then I will be better prepared for the battle over the business. Also that the fact that the business is only in my name will make a BIG difference later on, when we are divorced--and to avoid bringing this up to stbx. make no more references at all to the fact that the business is my name only.

And he believes (and may be right) that if stbx has purchased my property from me and has a secure place to live, he will be LESS prepared for that battle. I know this sounds ludicrous, but his explanation makes sense in the context of dealing with mental illness. Less panic for someone with severe mental illness--especially one with such a rigid need for "stability" and an inability to ACT, means less likelihood of raging retaliation, because he's more likely to withdraw into his safe place--his home. He thinks I'm heaping too many changes at once on stbx, and should approach more piecemeal and systematically. Yes, it takes a little longer, but a desirable outcome is more likely.

Attorney typed up an agreement for me. (paraphrasing) It says I will sell real property to stbx for $40,000,  and leave all claims to real property, and stbx will be responsible for all matters regarding said property. That stbx and I will remain as business partners but that either of us may change our mind and decide to terminate partnership at any time, at which time another agreement plan will be decided--said plan will be in reference to business partnership ONLY and may not include revisions to present agreement. Stbx may only use business account debit card or other business resources with my express permission and agrees that debit card/access to business resources can be cancelled by me if he does not have my permission and expends business resources anyway. Stbx will forfeit claim to any other personal property of mine, present or future, immediately upon signing, and likewise for me.  Real property deed will not be transferred to stbx until receipt of payment. After deed transfer, the business will pay stbx $500 per month rent for use of current workshop space (if applicable) until business relocates, at which time, rental payments will cease. After business relocates, whether rent has been paid or not, and after deed transfer, stbx will pay 1/2 of workshop cost ($12,500) back to business within 24 months.

All this only cost me $75!

I took the agreement to stbx, asked him to read it, and he did. He agreed. I asked him to come with me to sign it in front of a notary. HE DID! (he frowned about the debit card clause, but was so happy about the business rental clause that he blew off the debit card stuff--which is why the attorney suggested it. He was right!) I told stbx I would print off divorce papers and attach the agreement to them and file it on Monday. He agreed to this. Whether he actually shows up or not to sign divorce papers isn't quite as important now. Attorney said a judge *could* throw out the agreement if battling ensues during divorce, but since it's a fair agreement, and signed/notarized, it's less likely. And that I can use the agreement with the bank to cancel his debit card if I need to, once agreement is declared legal in court.

I will file for the divorce option that says "we have no children or disagreements about assets" so that we don't even have to go to court, just have a magistrate sign off on the divorce and mail us the final decree (which will require stbx's signature to file--keeping my fingers crossed). Attorney recommends, obviously, that I don't bother to explain to stbx that at any time during the 3 month waiting period, stbx could revoke the whole thing and opt for a judge to intervene.

So progress has been made--not the full enchilada, but MAJOR progress nonetheless! A huge weight is lifted from my shoulders! Attorney says come on back when the business battle begins. FINALLY! Light at the end of the tunnel!

Thanks everyone, and I will be sure to keep you updated. Keep your fingers crossed for me! 

[Matt]

Could you open a new account, and move all the money from the old one into the new one, and not give him a debit card on the new account?

[doubleAries]

would that be legal in a divorce proceeding? I know it wouldn't be for personal accounts, but not sure about business accounts. Probably the same--the divorce papers very specifically say no one is allowed to move or transfer assets.

Hmmmm... .  that seems like something that would send him over the edge and cause him to cancel what he has already moved forward on so far.

But I could do that after the divorce, I suppose.

he's not abusing the debit card right now--only when he has a manic cycle.

[ForeverDad]

I think opening a new account, even at another bank, should be done post-divorce and especially when the partnership is "let go".  Hmm, would his being a 'partner' give him a right to cards, etc?  I guess not if the agreement states you control that financial aspect.

I would also agree not to take any actions that might upset the apple cart... .  until the divorce is final and even allow a little extra time for the dust to settle.  What's 3, 4 or 5 months when a few days ago it felt like it would take ages?

I agree that it was a smart move to let the property go for a reasonable amount.  You were already gone and you would have had a very hard time getting him out.  Be aware that you may have to nicely do the paperwork for him each step along the way.  While you don't want to appease (or as little as possible for the next few months) neither do you want to trigger any overreactions or stonewalling.

Make copies, file the original in a safe place.

[mamachelle]

Hi DA

Great news. I am so happy for you. Real progress and your attorney sounds like a keeper.

I know your core business will be ok in the long run and continue to grow. You may need to think 'outside the box' to keep going but it looks like you already have.

Just remember to hide your elation, don't discuss the deal details with any mutual friends or employees. Keep it all under your hat and appear depressed or just head down moving forward-- business as usual. It's likely he is processing and watching for signs when he is with you. You know how these folks have a sixth sense. Be prepared for him to go ballistic with a few short bursts with some pat lines. Make him feel that he has the better deal.

My boss can limit amounts on his business amex cards for his employees and gets a text message with each transaction. He's a bit paranoid and Bipolar/uSociopath but hey I love my job most days Anyway, I think you could take debit card away with exchange for amex card. My limit is $3000 but you can go lower. Also the text message thing is good.

Again, breathe a little today. phew!

Mamachelle

[doubleAries]

I think that once the divorce is final, I can do whatever I want with the business. It is a sole proprietorship in my name. In a strictly legal sense, he is NOT a "partner" and has no more "right" to debit cards or even credit cards than any of the other employees (and they don't have cards). Actually, even in a day to day sense--while he does work hard, he is not capable of dealing with or even recognizing what needs to be done on a managerial level. He usually thinks I'm "slacking off" when I'm ordering packaging and labels, making collection calls, shipping/receiving, inventorying, invoicing, etc, etc--any of the stuff he does not want to do. He generally even refuses to train new employees.

I don't think there is anything he can do about it if I change accounts post-divorce. The only claim he has right now is through marriage. This is why the lawyer is saying "don't talk about whose name the business is in. Don't mention it, bring it up, point to it in anger. Like him, pretend that doesn't exist". If we file the "no children, no assets dispute" divorce paperwork, we won't even have to go to court, and the lawyer thinks this is the best way to go in this case especially (so do I). Who knows what he'd do/say in front of a judge? Best to remove even that possibility.

If he thinks he's a partner, so what?

I've been trying to get out of this mess for 15 years (geez, I can hardly believe it--time sure doesn't fly when you're in HELL!), so what's a few more months? Especially since I don't have to live with him anymore.

I have no desire to cheat him or manipulate him. I just want to escape, with as much of my own hide intact as possible. He'll be getting a pretty good deal on the property ($20K under market value), and that's OK--I'll be getting a lot more out of it than I paid for it! The goals I had when I bought that land are no longer the goals I have now anyway--and he will likely thrive better with a place in the woods to hide (that was what I needed 23 years ago, got it, time to move back out into the world now).

And yes, mamachelle, you are right. He IS watching me closely. I pretend not to notice. When he says "good morning!" when I show up for work, I look down, shuffle my feet and mumble "good morning". This makes him think I might want to discuss my feelings or something  and he disappears fast. My T also has given this same advice. Says if stbx says something outrageous, don't JADE, just start looking weepy and confused. Makes me feel like a phony liar, but whatever works, I guess.

I just hope this works. He signed the agreement, but not the divorce papers. Isn't stalling that I know of, just gone this weekend. We'll see Monday. I'll let you all know.

(Why isn't there an emoticon of a smiley ripping it's hair out?)

[mamachelle]

Hey DA,

It sounds like you really are holding almost all the cards which is wonderful news.

I remember it being like a chess game more than faking my behavior when i had contact with exBPDH at our kid exchanges. i needed to escape and keep his radar jammed so to speak. the good thing for now is you get to see his moods day by day. its ok to smile and relax and joke but the overall picture is confused, depressed, tired, stressed... .  I would wear old clothes, leave my hair in a ponytail, tell him i was just going to see a movie with a girlfriend. i did this for 2 years... .  

keep us posted on your week, hope this weekend you got a break.

mamachelle

[doubleAries]

I think I'm pretty organized with the steps and what order I need to do them in now. I printed off the appropriate forms for divorce and filled them out. I have a lot of boxes to mail tomorrow (monday) and other "monday stuff" to do, so on Tuesday, I will ask him to go to the courthouse with me and file them (and feel out if it seems like it would work to "while we're at it and at the courthouse, why don't we take the vehicle titles along and get them squared away?".

I will renew my lease on my rental for another 6 months.

After the divorce (which takes 3 months), then I can start house hunting again.

Once I find a place, get settled and move the business, then I can hire a couple of people I will train to start taking over stbx's duties.

Then I can approach stbx with a buy out proposal.

Then I can start the documentation process of when he's stalking me for the rest of my life (because he will).

And meanwhile, I will continue my counseling to retrain myself to be a healthy, well rounded individual instead of someone who thinks they have to fix someone with severe mental illness in order to deserve valuation and love.