BPD/NPD DIL-(Long) Part I

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I will try to be concise, but this is a long chain of events that we (wife of 29 years and I) only recently began to understand.

Our 26 year old son (active military)met the "love of his life" on 5/20/2011. We met her during our summertime visits to the city where his unit is based. She was lovely, well spoken and obviously smitten with affection for our son.  Our best friends also met her when attending a conference in the city where he is based. Our trusted friends also gave her a "thumbs up" and we were very pleased that our son was entering a new era in his life.

Labor Day weekend of 2011, they came and spent the weekend with us. All was well, we liked her very much and I personally told her that she was "A-OK" with us. Our son told me that he thought "she might be the one". I told him that since she was a few year's older than he that he should "strike while the iron is hot". A ring and date, a long engagement to allow him to get to know her better was my fatherly advice.

Our son sent us an email post visit that thanked us for all the hospitality an love during the visit.

Her background that we now know:she does not know who her biological father is, raised in a same sex female household for a period of time, abandoned at some point by her birth mother and raised by her grandparents. This was during the time when same sex relationships were not broadly accepted as they are today.

Now things start to move quickly, engagement commences in October of 2011. Future DIL believes that her landlord is selling the house where she rents a room. Our son is ready for a scheduled 2 month stateside deployment where he will be away from the area where they both reside. Future DIL tells our son that she must move back to her hometown and move in with her mother as her current situation is too stressful.

In December, she legally becomes our DIL in order to situate her in Married Housing on base while he is away on his assignment. Our son tells us that this is not his preference, but he cannot take a chance on losing her.

Another wedding ceremony is planned for September 2012 for friends and family in her hometown area. All is well and peaceful.

Our son visits us for Christmas 2011 after the civil union and we start discussing the formal wedding. He asks if we can go beyond the normal and customary rehearsal dinner and also pay for the DJ at the wedding reception. We agree and call the DIL to tell her what we have agreed upon. She seems happy and grateful.

Spring comes and goes and we have regular contact with our son and minimal contact with the DIL. We do collaborate on a birthday gift with our DIL for his birthday.

Wedding is scheduled for September. We travel to visit them in their new home in late June and figure that the rehearsal dinner plans and other specifics will be planned and agreed upon during our week-long visit.

Upon arrival we are told how stressful the wedding planning is. There seems to be no excitement by the DIL. My wife finally asked, "Aren't you excited about the wedding?"

DIL is pouty and impolite for the next 2 days. We do not give it much mind, but our son finally broaches the subject, "You guys can tell she is not happy, right?. He shows us a text that he had received that am, "It is not that I hate your parents, I dislike them because of the way they have treated me". Our son tells my wife that DIL was "very offended by the questioning of her excitement about the wedding."

We want to have a discussion with DIL to resolve these issues before they fester. Our son tells us that he does not advise it "because she wants war!" And war it was. She raged at us for 90 minutes and most times appeared to be talking to someone else. After all, we had not really spent much time with her and were just getting to know her. Her rage all centered on how I make her feel ("horrible, you always made me feel horrible".

We left their home and cut our visit short as her behavior appeared to us to be a type of breakdown and was something we had no experience with.

Our son was very apologetic, called us daily for the balance of the week.

I read a book titled "Put it Down (Forgive so you can be Forgiven) and we decided to attend their wedding due to the fact that if we did not attend, our son would have no one other than his best man and one groomsman attend. His side of the chapel would have been empty. We brought friends, aunts, cousins with spouses etc. It was definitely an olive branch.

We gave them generous wedding gifts and I danced with the bride at the reception. She had been passively rude up to that point (not introducing us to her family etc.), so I told her during the dance, "we just want to wipe the slate clean so we can move forward as a family, can you do that?" She said yes.

In October we received the phone call that we were going to be grandparents. My wife reached out to her by telephone and text to congratulate her. There was no response.

We questioned our son about why she did not respond to her MIL. His response was that she was just being stubborn.

At Christmas we sent a Christmas box with gifts for her, him and them. They went to her grandparents for Thankgiving and Christmas. No gifts were received from them, but we got a very nice card from our son.

After the New Year we provided our son with a ticket for him to visit for a few days. He told us that he wanted to discuss the "heartbreaking" situation with his wife. Bottom Line-DIL wants an apology from me . As our son has been with us virtually all of the time we have spent with our DIL, I asked him what the apology should be for. He did not have and answer but we all agreed that to ask what the apology for would not be beneficial.

My wife and I went to a family therapist/psychologist and told our story. She introduced us to BPD based upon the contingency that as long as what we told her was factual, it was a distinct possibility.

We love our son dearly, I decided the best olive branch I could offer was a heartfelt letter.

The letter is as follows:

I know I am not your favorite person, but believe me most of us do not put our in-laws in our favorite persons list. And that is OK!

I meant what I said when we had our brief dance at the wedding reception, I only want to wipe the slate clean and go forward as a family.

I want to cut to the chase and just let you know that any slighting or insult to you from me was definitely not intentional, nor was I aware that an insult was made. If my person (i.e. who I am) offended you, please accept my apology. But realize I cannot change who I am.

I meant what I said that night, all who asked what we thought of you only had one heartfelt response, "we think she is terrific:"

Life is tough many times, we don't as people always know how to handle all that confronts us.

Speaking for me, I just want you to know that there is nothing from  my side that cannot be overcome. In fact, it is all ancient history as far as I am concerned. We want to move forward and look forward to being grandparents and having a relationship with you.

(Son's name) is so excited about his new MOS and being a Dad, we just want to share in your new family's joy.

Can we be friends or at least folks that can spend some time together?

We would like that very much!

End of letter.

One week later they called us, I was informed by my son that in his opinion the letter was condescending/ selfish and as if it was addressed to an adolescent by a life coach.

DIL then started her rage. "I don't like you!, I don't like you" in a wailing voice is how she started. She informed me that during the Labor Day 2011 visit she could have "taken my face off". The F-bombs were flying. The repeated cries of " I was never good enough" and it is no longer about you dude (me). It is about me (DIL). Another 90 minutes where we tried to reason and of course made no progress.

Our son re-iterated that they are a team and soon to be a team of 3. She repeated that actions have consequences implying that unless I comply with her request for a better apology, we will not meet our grandson.

I had a solo session with the psychologist subsequent to the rage. She has advised that NC is mandatory with the DIL and the grandson who is expected in June.

Our son has not contacted us for the last 5 weeks since the call. Previously we had weekly calls at a minimum. Prior to our visit in late June, the calls were 2-3 times per week. We were very close.

They are going to be relocated by the military shortly after the baby is born. The psychologist is concerned about post birth depression and possible psychosis.

Should I advise my son of the seriousness of this situation, or cross my fingers and let the chips fall where they may.

While we are very sad about the situation, we do recognize that there is nothing that we can do... .  but maybe there is something that he can do with some good guidance that will make the situation better for himself and his son.

Sorry for the length, but this is the place where I think I can get some good input and assistance.

[NeedAdvice]

I will try to be concise, but this is a long chain of events that we (wife of 29 years and I) only recently began to understand.

Our 26 year old son (active military)met the "love of his life" on 5/20/2011. We met her during our summertime visits to the city where his unit is based. She was lovely, well spoken and obviously smitten with affection for our son.  Our best friends also met her when attending a conference in the city where he is based. Our trusted friends also gave her a "thumbs up" and we were very pleased that our son was entering a new era in his life.

Labor Day weekend of 2011, they came and spent the weekend with us. All was well, we liked her very much and I personally told her that she was "A-OK" with us. Our son told me that he thought "she might be the one". I told him that since she was a few year's older than he that he should "strike while the iron is hot". A ring and date, a long engagement to allow him to get to know her better was my fatherly advice.

Our son sent us an email post visit that thanked us for all the hospitality an love during the visit.

Her background that we now know:she does not know who her biological father is, raised in a same sex female household for a period of time, abandoned at some point by her birth mother and raised by her grandparents. This was during the time when same sex relationships were not broadly accepted as they are today.

Now things start to move quickly, engagement commences in October of 2011. Future DIL believes that her landlord is selling the house where she rents a room. Our son is ready for a scheduled 2 month stateside deployment where he will be away from the area where they both reside. Future DIL tells our son that she must move back to her hometown and move in with her mother as her current situation is too stressful.

In December, she legally becomes our DIL in order to situate her in Married Housing on base while he is away on his assignment. Our son tells us that this is not his preference, but he cannot take a chance on losing her.

Another wedding ceremony is planned for September 2012 for friends and family in her hometown area. All is well and peaceful.

Our son visits us for Christmas 2011 after the civil union and we start discussing the formal wedding. He asks if we can go beyond the normal and customary rehearsal dinner and also pay for the DJ at the wedding reception. We agree and call the DIL to tell her what we have agreed upon. She seems happy and grateful.

Spring comes and goes and we have regular contact with our son and minimal contact with the DIL. We do collaborate on a birthday gift with our DIL for his birthday.

Wedding is scheduled for September. We travel to visit them in their new home in late June and figure that the rehearsal dinner plans and other specifics will be planned and agreed upon during our week-long visit.

Upon arrival we are told how stressful the wedding planning is. There seems to be no excitement by the DIL. My wife finally asked, "Aren't you excited about the wedding?"

DIL is pouty and impolite for the next 2 days. We do not give it much mind, but our son finally broaches the subject, "You guys can tell she is not happy, right?. He shows us a text that he had received that am, "It is not that I hate your parents, I dislike them because of the way they have treated me". Our son tells my wife that DIL was "very offended by the questioning of her excitement about the wedding."

We want to have a discussion with DIL to resolve these issues before they fester. Our son tells us that he does not advise it "because she wants war!" And war it was. She raged at us for 90 minutes and most times appeared to be talking to someone else. After all, we had not really spent much time with her and were just getting to know her. Her rage all centered on how I make her feel ("horrible, you always made me feel horrible".

We left their home and cut our visit short as her behavior appeared to us to be a type of breakdown and was something we had no experience with.

Our son was very apologetic, called us daily for the balance of the week.

I read a book titled "Put it Down (Forgive so you can be Forgiven) and we decided to attend their wedding due to the fact that if we did not attend, our son would have no one other than his best man and one groomsman attend. His side of the chapel would have been empty. We brought friends, aunts, cousins with spouses etc. It was definitely an olive branch.

We gave them generous wedding gifts and I danced with the bride at the reception. She had been passively rude up to that point (not introducing us to her family etc.), so I told her during the dance, "we just want to wipe the slate clean so we can move forward as a family, can you do that?" She said yes.

In October we received the phone call that we were going to be grandparents. My wife reached out to her by telephone and text to congratulate her. There was no response.

We questioned our son about why she did not respond to her MIL. His response was that she was just being stubborn.

At Christmas we sent a Christmas box with gifts for her, him and them. They went to her grandparents for Thankgiving and Christmas. No gifts were received from them, but we got a very nice card from our son.

After the New Year we provided our son with a ticket for him to visit for a few days. He told us that he wanted to discuss the "heartbreaking" situation with his wife. Bottom Line-DIL wants an apology from me . As our son has been with us virtually all of the time we have spent with our DIL, I asked him what the apology should be for. He did not have and answer but we all agreed that to ask what the apology for would not be beneficial.

My wife and I went to a family therapist/psychologist and told our story. She introduced us to BPD based upon the contingency that as long as what we told her was factual, it was a distinct possibility.

We love our son dearly, I decided the best olive branch I could offer was a heartfelt letter.

The letter is as follows:

I know I am not your favorite person, but believe me most of us do not put our in-laws in our favorite persons list. And that is OK!

I meant what I said when we had our brief dance at the wedding reception, I only want to wipe the slate clean and go forward as a family.

I want to cut to the chase and just let you know that any slighting or insult to you from me was definitely not intentional, nor was I aware that an insult was made. If my person (i.e. who I am) offended you, please accept my apology. But realize I cannot change who I am.

I meant what I said that night, all who asked what we thought of you only had one heartfelt response, "we think she is terrific:"

Life is tough many times, we don't as people always know how to handle all that confronts us.

Speaking for me, I just want you to know that there is nothing from  my side that cannot be overcome. In fact, it is all ancient history as far as I am concerned. We want to move forward and look forward to being grandparents and having a relationship with you.

(Son's name) is so excited about his new MOS and being a Dad, we just want to share in your new family's joy.

Can we be friends or at least folks that can spend some time together?

We would like that very much!

End of letter.

One week later they called us, I was informed by my son that in his opinion the letter was condescending/ selfish and as if it was addressed to an adolescent by a life coach.

DIL then started her rage. "I don't like you!, I don't like you" in a wailing voice is how she started. She informed me that during the Labor Day 2011 visit she could have "taken my face off". The F-bombs were flying. The repeated cries of " I was never good enough" and it is no longer about you dude (me). It is about me (DIL). Another 90 minutes where we tried to reason and of course made no progress.

Our son re-iterated that they are a team and soon to be a team of 3. She repeated that actions have consequences implying that unless I comply with her request for a better apology, we will not meet our grandson.

I had a solo session with the psychologist subsequent to the rage. She has advised that NC is mandatory with the DIL and the grandson who is expected in June.

Our son has not contacted us for the last 5 weeks since the call. Previously we had weekly calls at a minimum. Prior to our visit in late June, the calls were 2-3 times per week. We were very close.

They are going to be relocated by the military shortly after the baby is born. The psychologist is concerned about post birth depression and possible psychosis.

Should I advise my son of the seriousness of this situation, or cross my fingers and let the chips fall where they may.

While we are very sad about the situation, we do recognize that there is nothing that we can do... .  but maybe there is something that he can do with some good guidance that will make the situation better for himself and his son.

Sorry for the length, but this is the place where I think I can get some good input and assistance.

[doubleAries]

hello NeedAdvice, and 

I am so sorry to hear this story--it sounds very difficult for you and your family!

All of us here have someone in our lives with BPD, so we do understand the emotional roller coaster you find yourself on. While I agree with the therapist you sought counsel from that your DIL sounds like a BPD, I do not necessarily agree that NC is your only recourse.

It does sound like you have bent over backwards to accomodate and make DIL feel welcome--and I am sure it absolutely puzzling for you why this has not worked. Well, it hasn't worked because she's BPD.

I would urge you to learn all you can about the disorder (we have lots of excellent resources here for that purpose--videos, articles, workshops, chat groups) and understand that you need to be there for your son as this progresses. But also understand that she will be putting immense pressure on him from the other end to help her justify her rage as being outside herself, not inside. And if he does not, he will be more miserable than if he does.

here's a video that can help you start the process Video-Tools to Reduce Conflict with a person suffering from BPD

And here's an article that could help in understanding what you are dealing with BPD: What is it? How can I tell?

This one should be useful in the near future What is the story on "Grandparents' Rights?

Anytime you log on to this site, you can click on "resources and downloads" and "articles" to read more.

I'm sure more folks will be chiming in soon, with more info and ideas.

Best of luck to you, and hope to hear more from you soon.

doubleAries

[Surnia]

   Needadvice

Also a warm welcome from my side!

I feel so sorry, you are really in a difficult situation, instead of just being happy about your future grand child!

I think you did what you could right now. Great you have support from a family therapist.

I agree with doubleAries about reading about BPD. I would however not discuss it with your son. Looks like he tends to take her side at the moment, so he we would probably not be open and mentioning BPD could make all worse.

Do you have other children?

Please keep in touch, Needadvice!

Surnia

[catnap]

  NeedAdvice

Just wanted to drop by and welcome you to bpdfamily.com. . .your situation is very similar to the one my son was in two years ago (BPD (w/NPD traits)gf and their new baby). I remember how awful it felt to be accused of things that I never did or have my words/intentions twisted.  The more I learned about BPD the easier it was to understand my son's actions/words.  Much of what he said and did during that time was based on protecting himself.  

Please keep posting. . .it does help.

catnap

[doubleAries]

When a family member has BPD, the illness can negatively everyone in the family system, including children, siblings, and in-laws. Senior members on the [L5]  Coping and Healing from a BPD Parent, Sibling, or Inlaw board are experienced with and can help you with setting boundaries, finding relief from FOG, encouraging self-care, improving your handling of relationships impacted by your BPD relative, and pursuing a path of recovery from traumatic experiences. The validation, information, and support will give you strength on your journey.

And don't forget--we have a wealth of informational material written by the leading experts in the field. Feel free to make posts, ask questions, and learn. Welcome!

doubleAries

[NeedAdvice]

Not much input here.

I guess the consensus is to let the chips fall where they may.

My major concern is that DIL will experience postpartum depression which will exacerbate the situation that our son will have to deal with.

The "take your face off" desire is a desire to cause major physical harm to another human being. Our therapist sees this as a very serious indication of the depth of her illness.

I have read some articles concerning new BPD moms. Some are validated by their role as a mother and enjoy the attention that the new baby brings to them. Others are inconvenienced by the baby and resent the lost sleep etc. and all the new requirements that an infant brings into a new mom's life.

Is this condition one that the afflicted do not get any help until there is a major event that forces them to seek therapy?

Do we just cross our fingers and pray that there is no major event coming?

[Kwamina]

Is this condition one that the afflicted do not get any help until there is a major event that forces them to seek therapy?

Do we just cross our fingers and pray that there is no major event coming?

In my experience even a major event won’t necessarily ‘force’ people with BPD to seek help because in their minds there’s nothing wrong with them. They often actually seem to think their behavior is normal and acceptable and when someone says otherwise, they call that person crazy. I don’t believe we should just cross our fingers and pray that there won’t be any major events coming. Past behavior is a strong indicator of future behavior and when dealing with people with BPD, you should often expect the worst especially when they’re dealing with stress. The birth of a child will definitely be very stressful. You should prepare as well as you can for dealing with her so when she does misbehave you’ll be as ready as you can be to deal with this. If we just hope and pray we leave all power in their hands, if they behave normally we’re all right but if they misbehave we’re in trouble. We can’t control people with BPD but we can control ourselves so I think it’s better to focus on how we can change the way we deal with the situation and change the way we interact with and react to them.

[doubleAries]

Well what kind of input are you looking for, needadvice? We've given you lots of articles to read, resources to peruse, and support.

If what you are looking for is how to control your DIL and make her act the way you would prefer, sorry--there isn't a way to do that. I understand your frustration--all of us here do. But the fact of the matter is you cannot control here, you cannot force her to seek treatment, and you cannot wedge her and your son apart.

If she becomes physically abusive with your son, you could call the police. But this could cause problems with your son, if he is on the path of "trying to keep the peace" by walking on eggshells. If she becomes physically abusive with the baby, you can call the police and social services to investigate. I wouldn't count on this causing her to seek treatment, however. And it may infuriate your son as well.

Your son has gotten himself caught up in this whirlwind, and only he can extract himself. You can speak with him about it, but that's about it. Your relationship with him could possibly bring him to "see the light", but it may also severely strain the relationship. You've already tried speaking with her, and you see where it has gotten you. Until your son makes an escape or persuades her to seek treatment (which is not an overnight thing, unfortunately) there is very little you can do except chage the way you relate with her. I am NOT recommending you kowtow to her. But the methods of communication you are using now obviously aren't working. I know it is confusing--these are excellent and generaous communication skills you are employing. IF she were not BPD!

You are now entering an arena you have not encountered before. It is going to be difficult. There are no magic answers. You cannot change her, you cannot fix her, and you cannot extract your son against his will. She will require him to back her up in all this, so she can more easily believe that her rage is coming from outside herself (including from you) not inside, and that she is justified in her out of control emotions. And because of the situation, your son is very likely to accomodate her, out of FOG (Fear, Obligation, and Guilt). What you CAN do, is protect yourself. Here is one the first and important tools for that Boundaries Tools of Respect

you're not simply just letting the chips fall where they may--you don't have much control or choice in the matter. If you are able to exhibit strong boundaries with her, your son can observe and learn to do it to. This is pretty much the only thing you can do unless for some very unlikely reason, she decides to seek and participate in DBT treatment. Sorry. But we're here to support you as best we can through all this, and give pointers we've learned.

doubleAries

[NeedAdvice]

doubleAries,

Thank you for your response, it is the type of input that I am looking for.

You are validating from a personal perspective what I have been reading on this site. I have learned here that I cannot help her and now accept that for my own peace of mind she simply cannot be a part of our lives. Wish it was different but my wife and I understand the relevance of The Serenity Prayer when it comes to this unfortunate situation.

We live 1,000 miles away from our son (which makes it even stranger from the perspective of DIL's pre-occupation with me), so we will basically only know what is going on with their family via communication from our son.

We hope and pray that our son can return to Kansas and seek advice, but for the interim he is in the Land of Oz as he tries to cope with the situation with his wife.

Thanks again and thanks to all who support this board.

[louise 716]

Needadvice,

My heart goes out to you and your wife.  Reading your post was almost like rewriting our situation with the exception, thank goodness, my son (almost the same age as yours) and his wife have not had children yet ... .  and as much as my children have blessed my life ... .  I honestly hope and pray my son and his wife never have children.  Their relationship, like that of your son and DIL is just too toxic.  We have been dealing with this situation for a little over 5 years. Not perhaps as long as some people, but long enough.

I, too, understand you not wanting to be discovered on here. The thought of them discovering me writing here sends shivers  up my spine. 

Until just a few months ago, I honestly thought I was dealing with young rational people who just needed some guidance. One day when I was venting to a friend she told me to look up borderline personality disorder and narcissism. BINGO! HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. From what I have observed through the years, DIL is a narcissist and son with combat PTSD also has adopted some of her ways.  All these years I thought I was dealing with rational people ... .  no wonder whatever we did didn't work.  I now know, like you are aware, we are dealing with irrational people.

It hurts when our children used to call us regularly and now ... .  rarely if at all.  And the rarely if at all is not because their lives are full ... .  it's because they are angry with us. I look at the family photos we have of him when he was a baby/boy ... and I think "where did that boy go?" We work hard to raise a family who supports one another and then one of our kids makes a choice to bring a sick one into the mix and the whole applecart gets upset.  It effects everything!

My son is a veteran - so like your situation, I understand the military component.  Years ago we got a "she's a part of my life if you don't except her I won't talk to you" type of email. When that happened I was heartbroken and  wrote a very lengthy e mail talking about "emotional blackmail."  Over the years we have been asked to apologize for transgressions ... .  asked to apologize over and over.  We have tried that.  Been there. Done that.  Two years ago he tried blacklisting us. We obliged.  Then when his wife had a minor medical episode and we didn't respond they were mad and hurt. Our feeling is we were either "in" or "out" - you can't have it both ways when it benefits you. So we still are "paying" for that transgression. A few months ago we got another email telling us until we all acknowledge what happened he wasn't going to talk to us. And he hasn't.  I did call him a week ago and surprisingly he picked up.  I just told him I was thinking about him and loved him. That was the extent of our approx 45 second phone call.

Like you, the only way we know what is happening in their lives is what my son would tell us (or by happenstance a "sighting" and since he isn't talking to us, we won't get info from him.  Several months ago he blocked all of us from any social media ... .  so we get nothing from that venue. Our son is not an only child so this behavior has had various effects on all the family members. I've been trying to tell his siblings there's a mental health component involved that we weren't aware of before.

I think I read in your initial post you and your wife have sought out a therapist. My husband and I have never gone to therapy, but we have started be/c of this situation. Honestly, I can't say I'm getting tons of "take aways" out of the therapy BUT the validation that it is not what we have done is extremely helpful. I printed off the latest email from a few months ago and showed the therapist.  The look on her face while she read it ... .  took a huge load off. 

You stated they live 1000 miles away.  As you know, with the military you can be stationed anywhere. Our son and DIL at one point were stationed overseas. Distance didn't matter. We would get the hurtful emails stirring up the pot from 1000's of miles away.  One of my children quite awhile back said to me, "Mom, I feel kind of bad saying this ... but I think it would be better if they just moved back to xyz country." I said I completely understand, but distance doesn't matter for people like this (other than the fact they can't just pop over) ... .  they stir up the pot with hurtful e mails.  Currently in our situation, son and DIL live local but the grapevine says DIL took a job in her field about 2 hours away. Son is still in school and grapevine also says he has now has a local part time seasonal job.

Over the years I have tried responding with what I thought were helpful e mails. Then when that didn't work, I tried ignoring his hurtful e mails and writing a week or two later just a brief trivial type of e mail just to keep communication open. Then I got an email back that said "you just can't ignore the situation and pretend nothing happened" type of e mail.  This last time in Dec and Jan when there were Facebook posts ... .  I chose to completely ignore those posts and vowed to never read her facebook wall again. Said nothing. Did nothing.  Ignored completely. What did I get ... .  that email about "you just can't ignore the situation and pretend nothing happened."

Thankfully, we don't get regular hurtful emails.  If that were to happen, I'll just do what I did when I had a situation several years ago ... .  make an email "rule" that moves all email from such and such a person to a separate email folder.  Then it is more of a CHOICE to read that e mail.  I would have to consciously open up that email.

Over the years I have felt like one of those blow up plastic punching clowns ... .  punch me (those hurtful emails) and I go down for a bit, but then I pop back up.  Punch me again (another hurtful email) I go down, but I do come back up ... .  but not as far this time be/c now I am more guarded ... .  and so it goes.

I shed a lot of tears in the beginning, but those tears are few and far between now. It's still sad, but through the years I have come to realize there is nothing I can do to change this.  I have tried giving them the apologies they requested.  I have tried to change my behavior to whatever they requested. I have tried the "do nothing" approach. Nothing has worked. I have other children who love me and accept me for who I am and who need me. I can't keep putting energy into a relationship that will suck me dry. It's not fair to my husband nor my other children.  I'll welcome my son with open arms if he chooses to reconnect.

Someone on here responded to one of my posts saying something about the choice he is making to blacklist his family is not about choosing his wife over us ... .  it's about choosing to survive ... and somehow he thinks he has to push us out the door if he is going to survive.

Master manipulators. That's what they are.  Whatever we say/do ... .  don't say/don't do ... .  can and will be used against us.

[doubleAries]

Needadvice and louise716,

It may be helpful for each of you to read some of the information in resources and downloads and articles sections about relationships with pwBPD, so you understand what your sons are going through. If this is confusing and painful for you, imagine how it is for your sons, who have to live with these women!

I know this ALSO causes you more grief. That is not my intention. The point is for you to understand what you--and your sons--are up against, and so you understand why your sons react the way they do with you now, and alleviate some of your disappointment. They are also walking on eggshells, apologizing for things they didn't do or don't understand, and trying to placate their wives.

It is quite common for pwBPD or other personality disorders to isolate their "target" from his family and friends. Why? Here's one explanation from someone who actually has BPD BPD BEHAVIORS: Objectifying the Non-partner

Does any of this sound familiar?-- The Five Stages of Discovery for Family Members

Hang in there--it takes time, but you can learn to regain your sense of inner peace even though things aren't working out the preferred way... .  

doubleAries

[louise 716]

DoubleAries,

Thanks for the reply.

I know my son is the target. That has always been DH's and my concern ... .  with us now out of the picture N/BPD wife only has him to needle.  This needling combined with his combat PTSD ... .  not a good combo. If son's N/BPDwife has indeed taken the job a couple of hours away and they are not living together right now, I know that has to reduce some of the day to day pressure for him, for which we would be grateful. Naturally, we would love to fantasize that this time apart will also perhaps serve to have him "wake up and smell the coffee", but we are doubtful since he still hasn't reconnected with us. Years past, early in the marriage, son has verbalized to me it's emotionally exhausting to constantly have to validate her.  Having read some of the info re: what it's like for someone to be married to a BPD is another reason why I hope and pray they never have children.

DH and I have raised a brood of intelligent, strong individuals: Self thinkers, stubborn, hardheaded, i.e. strong willed. If we could figure out what brief sentence or two I could write or say re: "acknowledging what we did" I would do that. Son obviously needs to hear something, but I know it can't be anything "pat." I've been trying to educate son's siblings re: BPD and narcissism and telling them (other kids) son and BPDwife are not rational individuals. There is a mental health component. Everything we did/said in the past didn't work be/c we didn't know what we were dealing with.

We have not "cast aside" our son.  HE has chosen to not have contact with us and while I realize he feels it's for his own survival it can still be a heartbreak for me. "Heartbreak" for me doesn't mean I go around on a daily basis moaning and groaning about it ... .  "accept the things I cannot change."

We all still struggle with ... what about family events? There most likely will be a wedding of a sibling in a year or so. Sibling has to decide does said newlywed invite pouters to wedding? Son doesn't want contact ... .  newlywed to be, I guess, can't even share exciting news of impending wedding. What if ... .  there is a medical emergency or worse, death ... .  it's difficult enough to deal with those situations ... .  if we were to tell son then that whole drama gets brought into an already stressful situation.  That's not really fair to the others.

Shortly after I discovered this board I followed the link you mentioned re: the 5 stages. Thanks for pointing me in that direction again.

[swampped]

Dear Hurting In-Laws:  There certainly are a lot of us!  Our story is similar---and I won't belabor that point.  But DH and I have found great help from our local AlAnon group.  "The only requirement for membership is concern over the drinking of a friend or relative" which should include just about everybody on the planet, methinks.  At any rate the lessons from the Twelve Steps, the Serenity Prayer, and slogans and mostly the fellowship of other parents who are struggling with adult children who are following a painful path, are priceless.  I know I sound like a broken record on this one, but am not sure where dh and I would be without our weekly meetings.  You would be amazed at how many stories are out there---everyone has one---and how comforting it is to know you are not alone.   This board is also a lifesaver, but once in a while you just need a real hug.  I hope you can find some peace and serenity with this horrible BPD.      Swampped

[NeedAdvice]

Just an update.

Son and DIL moved, son is not allowed to give us their new address as they are "outside the gates" in military supplied housing.

Grandson was born in June, we are not allowed to visit.

DIL no longer works, student debt (with nothing to show for it) continues to accrue interest.

My only thought is to arrange an intervention involving DIL's birth mother, ex-partner and her maternal grandparents, but is it really worth the effort?

I do not think anything will chance her cruel and evil persona which is supported by our son.

Thoughts?

[NeedAdvice]

I meant to say "change her cruel and evil persona".

Also, my son who used to call me several times per week before meeting her has not called his family since July!

[NeedAdvice]

All of this sharing, and not a peep from the folks here.

Don't think that we really have a community of helpers.

No thoughts?

Really!

[NeedAdvice]

Just so folks know, when I initially posted our situation on this board I was maliciously attacked by "Woozy".

No contact from the moderators, my responses were deleted in addition to the attacks by "Woozy".

We are at the point of crisis here in our family.

Does anyone give a rat's ass?

[doubleAries]

we may not all be on at the same time you are. Doesn't mean we are malicious, or don't care, or that we aren't a "community of helpers". Doesn't seem like you may have read any of the numerous links to articles you were sent.

Once again, there is no "quick fix" for this situation, that will immediately make things more to your liking. In fact, avoiding "the point of crisis" may not even be the best thing. Sometimes it is exactly the crisis that makes things start to change.

Have you tried calling your son? You say he isn't calling you--but are you calling him? It's his family now. How this unravels is more in his hands than in yours.

I see obviously that you are reaching out for help, but am not clear on what kind of help you want. Unfortunately, there is no "magic formula" to fix the situation that any of us can offer you (especially that will make her--or anyone else--act the way you want them to). Many of us have sent links to help you cope better with the situation, but if you can't make her "act right", how can any of the rest of us?

I can tell you I am sorry for what you are going through, and that I understand and sympathize with the agony, but can't tell you how to change her or your son. Sorry.

[Pilpel]

NeedAdvice,

I haven't been on this board for awhile, and just read your story.  I see many similarities with my SIL.  (Although my SIL is Christian and would never express a desire to do bodily harm to anyone.)  But I could identify with several parts of your story.  When I first met my SIL, before they became engaged, I was delighted to meet the person who might marry my brother.  I tried to extend myself in friendship and I offered to help with their wedding, which they decided to do in a quick 3 month engagment.  I spent two days with her in an effort to help with the wedding.  I tried to be friendly, helpful and welcoming.  When she started to act weird and had tantrums in the car, I tried to keep going on, politely.  At the end of our two days together, I confronted her --"This should be a happy time, but you seem depressed."  This led to a full on rage, with her accusing me of being the cause of her bad mood.  I did everything wrong.  I was controlling when I tried to talk about details of my own wedding.  (That threw me, because when I was planning my own wedding I loved hearing details of how other people did theirs.)  If I asked her how she wanted to do things, I offended her by asking too many questions.  It was crazy.  I lost a lot of sleep over it.  I didn't want to go to the wedding, but I did to keep the peace.  (But I found out just last year that, even though she expressed no interest in any of my opinions or stories while trying to help her out, she now believes she felt forced into chosing a fancy wedding venue because she thought it was my idea.) (?)

She's been a part of our family for 9 years.  She's on her 4th child.  I would say that she's gotten a little better.  Being married and having kids has settled her a little.  Though I've found that the difficulties we've had with her have spilled over to the kids.  She's as clueless about her kid's bad behavior and dealing with the consequences of their behavior as she is about her own.  We have used reflective listening to resolve conflicts and communicate with her, which is basically what is suggested in the Stop Walking on Eggshells book.  That's been the best method so far to communicating with her.  But no matter what, the narcissism is always there.  We've made some progress with relating to her through reflective listening.  But I still feel like our relationship with her and my brother is hanging in the balance.  It's very difficult to maintain a relationship with someone like this.  They suck the joy out of gatherings.  

Anyhow, sorry for going on and on.  I really am sorry you're dealing with this.  It's heartbreaking because it's your son.  And your grandchild.  And, it sounds like you're experiencing the similar relentless accusation.  It is JARRING to be constantly accused of doing and saying the wrong thing, when you know you were just being yourself and trying to get along.  

[NeedAdvice]

Well, I did read the articles and in fact read the book (Stop Walking on Eggshells).

I think the article that resonated the most was about the female BPD that seeks the male who has rescuer embedded in his code. That is the story of my son and his wife.

And yes, I have called him and requested that we have a 3 way conversation with his Mom and I.  No response from our son in regarding this request (3 weeks ago).

They post pictures of our grandson online, he looks woefully small and certainly does not resemble our kids at 6 months of age. They were growing and had mutiple chins and folds of fat to prepare themselves for getting active and walking at around 11 months.

DIL did not like feeding him as a newborn... .too painful to nurse and I have no idea what the solution to that "problem" was due to no communication.l

My fear is that the grandson has become an "inconvenient object"... .disturbing her preciousl sleep etc.

Again... .intervention?

Or, let the cards lie where they may?

[NeedAdvice]

Maybe Woozy runs the board!

Had high hopes for help here.

No longer, I will take my own gut directions.

IMHO you should take this site down... .no value... .no responses.

Why put us through false hopes for assistance?

The situations are real, the cute names and abbreviations with no responses are deplorable for those of us who are dealing with these folks only makes us more desperate.

Last post for me!

[Pilpel]

I have no idea who Woozy is.  Sorry you're getting harrassed.  What is Woozy saying to you that is harrassing?  When I joined this board several years ago, there was a cluster of regulars that were all very helpful and supportive.  Now I don't recognize a lot of the names. 

Just my two cents from what I've read, I think there is very little you can do in this situation.  I'm sorry.  It sounds like you had a very close relationshp with your son before all of this.  It must feel like you've lost him.  It looks like you've reached out and tried to keep a relationship.  And right now I think that's all you can do.  But I would be careful not to reach out too much.  You don't know for a fact if your grandchild is underweight because your DIL is not taking the right care of him.  It could be that he's naturally underweight.  If you try some kind of intervention and the child is just naturally thin, you will be turned into the bad person.  Also your son is married to her.  I would avoid talking to your son about your concerns about her.  It could make things worse.  Your DIL already thinks you're the bad guy.  BPDs have a way of flipping the good intentions of others around. 

It's hard to say how this will turn out for your son and grandchild.  From all the years of reading things on this board, some of these marriages end in divorce.  But some people who marry BPDs seem to be naturally passive rescuers, who don't mind the constant drama and conflict.  That's how my brother is.  Other people find the way my SIL acts very disturbing and it shakes people up.  But my brother is abnormally introverted, so I don't think he feels the social impact or the embarrassment that most people would experience in this sort of relationship.

Like I've said before, I see some similarities between my SIL and how you describe your DIL.  But you're in the position of being pretty quickly blocked out of their lives.  My SIL wants us in her life.  And that produces a whole other set of difficulties.  Even with them in our lives, I miss the relationship I once had with my brother.  I have to be careful about what I say to him, because he's repeated things I've said to her, where I've questioned her mental health or advised him to drop some drama that his wife created with some mutual friends.  And then she completely twisted what he said into something else.  And apparently he never bothers to correct her even when he knows she's twisting facts around.  And from things that she's written to me, I've wondered if he's played into her drama because when she starts to attack me she start to talk about him in heroic terms.  Otherwise she treats him like he's incompetent.  If she told me she no longer wanted to see us again, I would have to say that she has caused so much stress in our lives that we would not consider it a bad thing at all. 

I wish you the best.  I am so sorry you're going through all of this.

[P.F.Change]

Hi, NeedAdvice. 

I am not sure if you will be reading this, or if you will truly stop visiting the site, but I will write anyway.

These message boards have many members who are able to offer peer-to-peer support. The community as a whole values each member's right to choose his own path. While we can offer our personal anecdotes and experience, no one here can tell you what is the best course of action for you. That is up to you to decide.

I hear you say you are feeling desperate, and that is understandable! I can only imagine how much it hurts not to be in contact with your son and grandchild. I assure you that members here do care about your situation. However, because we are simply individuals like you, with busy lives and schedules, there will be times when there is a lot of activity on the boards and other times when few members are checking in. Sometimes members have time to read but not to post. Most posts do receive at least one response within a period of 5-7 days. If you have made a post that has not gotten a response within that time frame, it may have been pushed further down the board by newer posts,  or otherwise the members active within that time frame have not felt able to contribute anything of value to the thread. It is not personal, and it does not mean that members don't want to support you. Sometimes, starting a new thread or asking a specific question will help get more responses.

If you feel your situation is urgent and you need an immediate response, a message board like this one may not be the best place to go. It would be better at those times to call a therapist or emergency hotline. Have you ever considered seeking professional advice from a trained therapist about ways to cope with your situation?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Let it Be]

Dear Need Advice,

      I was in a situation similar to yours that ended with my son's divorce from his BPD wife one year ago.  I can really feel your pain in the loss of your son.  We as a family were told during our son's marriage to the BPD that he had chosen her over us.   I don't think I have ever experienced anything as painful as this experience was mostly because my exdil was also trying to alienate me from a granddaughter that I had been very close to.  At the same time she was allowing my granddaughter and her own daughter to sleep in a room with dog poop covering the floor.  You would have never imagined the filth inside of the home if you saw this woman outside.  She is model perfect and wants to imagine herself as such and expects the world to see her as such.

      Our relationship with our son has not improved much since the end of the marriage.  Even though we now know he knows that she had some mental illness and that she mistreated his daughter.   I think the BPD's know how to pick men that have communication problems and then they also know how to put the knives in and twist so that any problems you may have had with the child become huge. 

     What I learned from this was that with grown children there is only a limited amount of influence you have.   My son knows we are here and when he decides to open up about the experience he had while married to this woman he will.  In the meantime I try to keep all avenues of communication open.  I try not to experience pain and rejection to the point that I then try to reject him.  I keep my communication as open as I can with my granddaughter without going through my son.   She is now almost 15 and I am now allowed to drive her to school daily as I did before the marriage to the BPD.   The exdil expected my granddaughter to walk to school no matter the weather.  I take her because I cherish that small amount of time with her. 

      Feel your pain and know that it is real.  Know that your fears are real.   Call your son and tell him you love him and that you trust in his ability to make decisions for himself and his child.  They may not be your decisions or even the right decisions but knowing that you trust him has to help him.  Don't blame yourself.  If you are like most parents you did the best you could and sometimes that included making mistakes.   Don't try to change who you are to please the daughter-in-law because nothing you could do would please her. It goes both ways and I don't see her doing anything to please you.  Don't buy into the consequences game.    I have discovered that consequences and boundaries are therapy words.  They are words people use who want distance not closeness. They are not loving words.  They are something that happens not something you say. 

Best of luck to your family.

MILofBPD  (ex now:)