More codependent dynamics...

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have a problem, not stemming from my ex w/BPD…but a historic issue that has to be settled with my ex husband from 20 years ago.

Our relationship was not volatile like with my ex w/BPD.  If anything, I see us as two very codependent people, both bending over backwards in ways that are not very healthy.  In the end, I gave up…I wanted him to make our family more of priority, and his need to rescue the world and look like a hero at all times (he’s in the medical field) took its toll on the relationship.   I felt so guilty trying to get him to change and re-assess his priorities, and after a while,  I couldn’t stand feeling guilty any longer…he was always so over extended with others, doing good deeds, and my pleas for him to rein it in made me feel like I was saying don’t be a nice person…and I felt like I was bad person or selfish,  AND yet, I was not getting basic needs met in the relationship, and I finally suggested we go our separate ways, and so we divorced amicably 15 years ago and co-parented our daughter together in a very agreeable and friendly manner ever since.  I have always felt such guilt about the ending of this relationship…such guilt in divorcing such a good man.  He was a good man…but in a way, I never felt I ever even really knew him.

 

Anyhow…15 years ago we both put together a Marriage Settlement Agreement with an attorney/ mediator that only works with amicable couples who don’t want to spend money fighting or being adversarial…but want to reach fair and equitable divorce agreements regarding money, property, time with kids, etc. We signed this MSA over 15 years ago in joint agreement.   I thought all was well and good.

Over the years, I have agreed to forgo some of the monies set aside for me in the MSA with the understanding that at some point, the home we own together will either be sold or one of us will buy the other one out of the home…and at that point, any monies due can be ‘squared up’ then.

He is 10 years older than I am, he had his master’s in a medical profession when we married and was on his way to establishing his practice which is now a booming business, and he was a landlord that had invested in multiple properties before we married, too, and he did that with gifted money etc., from god parents.  He does well.  I have always worked, but came into the marriage with no assets though I did have a 4 yr. college degree, but I only recently paid my way through a masters’ program that will position me for a more secure professional career.

When the economy tanked in 06-07…the job I had worked at for years and paid well, dried up. I was in the middle of my master’s program.  I worked elsewhere, but was making nowhere near what I use to make. I warned my ex H that if this continued I may have to leave the house as I couldn’t afford the mortgage payments any longer unless I got another good paying job. A year went by, and I was still limping along with a lesser paying job…and supplementing my income with my own savings. I suggested I stop the hemorrhaging by having him move into the house we both owned, and taking over the mortgage, and I’d move out and share a rental with a friend and bring down my overhead.  He agreed, and we went along for two years that way.

After two years, he announced to me that he wanted to move his new gf into the home we own together, and start making major remodeling improvements on the house.  I had my reservations, but agreed that it was fine to move her in as long as he buys me out of my interest in the house and we settle our MSA before he puts any money into improvements.  He agreed.

He moved his gf in, and he and I started hashing out on paper a buy-out and doing the math for a settlement. 

But, instead of buying me out first, w/n a couple of months of his new gf moving in, they started tearing up the house and spent  easily $30,000 on improvements, new kitchen, all new hard wood floors, tore down a wall and changed the entire lay out of the home…major home improvements.  I was beside myself…I asked how he could just move forward with spending all this money on a home I still have ½ interest in w/out buying me out first as he agreed?  Long story short, he said he didn’t have the money to buy me out and I’d have to wait until he did…it’s now been 4 years.

 

I’ve literally been begging him for four years now to settle with me and buy out my interest in the home, and settle the MSA, roughly $50,000.  He recently made even more outside improvements to the home, all new professional exterior paint job and new landscape.  And still he puts me off over and over over again…if I get forceful, assertive, or angry in my requests…he tells me I need to calm down…he has a never ending  OCD-type preoccupation with the details of any and every tiny little expense that he may be owed over the last 15 years (you can just imagine 15 years of paperwork and all with his detailed accounting) …and the list keeps growing.

 

We met with the mediator to wrap this up last year…after I had to threaten to bring suit if he wouldn’t work with me on this…and when we left the mediators office, we had a plan and it was going to be wrapped up.  That was last year!  Now I’m back to begging him to wrap this up again, and he has yet another growing list of OCD expenses he thinks I owe him over the last two years (the MSA is only good until my daughter is 18, she’s now 21, it doesn’t even apply anymore)…it just never ends.  Plus, he has questioned every single provision of our MSA had so for 4 years now I’ve been justifying, defending and explain a MSA that we both agreed to 15 years ago,  as though he was totally ignorant or unaware or somehow taken advantage of now all these years later…when it’s now time to square up on itI heard NO complaints about any concerns with the MSA until it became a reality that we need to square up and that means paying me the balance owed….after all my debts are paid and accounted for… of $55,000.

I have mentally tortured myself over this for the last 4 years…did I trick him into something?  No.  Is the MSA unfair?  No, it was very reasonable and we both made contributions and it was a give and take we both agreed to.  Am I a bad person for insisting he close his agreements with me?  I truly feel like I’m stuck in some kind of Alice in Wonderland alternate universe with him.  Anytime I try to communicate about  it  with him, it just gets all confused and turns into a big circular argument…I mean, we don’t yell at each other, but it’s circular nonetheless.  It’s crazy-making.   It’s how I felt when I was married to him.  In the marriage, I eventually just gave up and divorced him.  I was basically saying…I give!   And I feel he’s expecting me to eventually just walk away from this, too…so that he doesn’t have to buy me out at all…he will just wear me down.   But…I really took a hit since 2007…I truly cannot afford to just be cavalier and walk away from this buy-out.

   

I’m making one more request that he settle this with the help of our mediator once and for all.  If he won’t…I feel I have two options.  1) take him to court  2) walk away from the whole thing

I can’t believe that after all this time, and in using a mediator to avoid just this kind of thing…I may have to actually take my ex H to court to get this resolved.  I hate being in this position.  I hate it.  I am back to having to feel like a bad person if I take care of myself with this man.   He knows I would do anything to avoid taking legal action against him, and he seems to feel like he’s being victimized.  Meanwhile, he keeps my money, and he has a thriving business, investment properties, well over $100,000 in one IRA that I know about.  He prides himself on being the most Ghandi like, self-sacrificing, saint of a man that has ever lived.  I don’t need a saint, I just want us to honor our agreements. 

People close to me are so frustrated that I have let this go on for four years and can’t understand why I just didn’t hire an attorney to advocate on my behalf and put some teeth into it.  They point out, it would likely be done and over with quickly if I’d just say enough, and hire an attorney and quit all this nonsense.  But I then feel too guilty to go after him that way, I keep thinking we can work this out…but…the clock is ticking…while I’m trying to start over again financially after this recession…he and his gf just live in my home and keep spending money on improvements.

 

I feel like I’m really being tested here…like I’m really going to have to bite the bullet and stick up for myself and hire an attorney.   Then I get this horribly anxious feeling and become wracked with guilt when I think about actually doing that.  My daughter seems to idealize her father, like he’s a saint.  My daughter also doesn’t like the new gf who has taken over house for the last 4 years…my daughter has tried everything to be friendly and warm, but this gf is just cold and odd…I think the gf suffers from depression.  So now my daughter feels uncomfortable in her own home…and she is constantly worried about her dad…because she thinks his gf is not a nice person.

God... .  does this stuff ever end?  Do I have to actually take my ex H to court to break out of this cycle? I know I'm part of the problem... .  I'm contributing to this.  I know I am.   

[MaybeSo]

I have a problem, not stemming from my ex w/BPD…but a historic issue that has to be settled with my ex husband from 20 years ago.

Our relationship was not volatile like with my ex w/BPD.  If anything, I see us as two very codependent people, both bending over backwards in ways that are not very healthy.  In the end, I gave up…I wanted him to make our family more of priority, and his need to rescue the world and look like a hero at all times (he’s in the medical field) took its toll on the relationship.   I felt so guilty trying to get him to change and re-assess his priorities, and after a while,  I couldn’t stand feeling guilty any longer…he was always so over extended with others, doing good deeds, and my pleas for him to rein it in made me feel like I was saying don’t be a nice person…and I felt like I was bad person or selfish,  AND yet, I was not getting basic needs met in the relationship, and I finally suggested we go our separate ways, and so we divorced amicably 15 years ago and co-parented our daughter together in a very agreeable and friendly manner ever since.  I have always felt such guilt about the ending of this relationship…such guilt in divorcing such a good man.  He was a good man…but in a way, I never felt I ever even really knew him.

 

Anyhow…15 years ago we both put together a Marriage Settlement Agreement with an attorney/ mediator that only works with amicable couples who don’t want to spend money fighting or being adversarial…but want to reach fair and equitable divorce agreements regarding money, property, time with kids, etc. We signed this MSA over 15 years ago in joint agreement.   I thought all was well and good.

Over the years, I have agreed to forgo some of the monies set aside for me in the MSA with the understanding that at some point, the home we own together will either be sold or one of us will buy the other one out of the home…and at that point, any monies due can be ‘squared up’ then.

He is 10 years older than I am, he had his master’s in a medical profession when we married and was on his way to establishing his practice which is now a booming business, and he was a landlord that had invested in multiple properties before we married, too, and he did that with gifted money etc., from god parents.  He does well.  I have always worked, but came into the marriage with no assets though I did have a 4 yr. college degree, but I only recently paid my way through a masters’ program that will position me for a more secure professional career.

When the economy tanked in 06-07…the job I had worked at for years and paid well, dried up. I was in the middle of my master’s program.  I worked elsewhere, but was making nowhere near what I use to make. I warned my ex H that if this continued I may have to leave the house as I couldn’t afford the mortgage payments any longer unless I got another good paying job. A year went by, and I was still limping along with a lesser paying job…and supplementing my income with my own savings. I suggested I stop the hemorrhaging by having him move into the house we both owned, and taking over the mortgage, and I’d move out and share a rental with a friend and bring down my overhead.  He agreed, and we went along for two years that way.

After two years, he announced to me that he wanted to move his new gf into the home we own together, and start making major remodeling improvements on the house.  I had my reservations, but agreed that it was fine to move her in as long as he buys me out of my interest in the house and we settle our MSA before he puts any money into improvements.  He agreed.

He moved his gf in, and he and I started hashing out on paper a buy-out and doing the math for a settlement. 

But, instead of buying me out first, w/n a couple of months of his new gf moving in, they started tearing up the house and spent  easily $30,000 on improvements, new kitchen, all new hard wood floors, tore down a wall and changed the entire lay out of the home…major home improvements.  I was beside myself…I asked how he could just move forward with spending all this money on a home I still have ½ interest in w/out buying me out first as he agreed?  Long story short, he said he didn’t have the money to buy me out and I’d have to wait until he did…it’s now been 4 years.

 

I’ve literally been begging him for four years now to settle with me and buy out my interest in the home, and settle the MSA, roughly $50,000.  He recently made even more outside improvements to the home, all new professional exterior paint job and new landscape.  And still he puts me off over and over over again…if I get forceful, assertive, or angry in my requests…he tells me I need to calm down…he has a never ending  OCD-type preoccupation with the details of any and every tiny little expense that he may be owed over the last 15 years (you can just imagine 15 years of paperwork and all with his detailed accounting) …and the list keeps growing.

 

We met with the mediator to wrap this up last year…after I had to threaten to bring suit if he wouldn’t work with me on this…and when we left the mediators office, we had a plan and it was going to be wrapped up.  That was last year!  Now I’m back to begging him to wrap this up again, and he has yet another growing list of OCD expenses he thinks I owe him over the last two years (the MSA is only good until my daughter is 18, she’s now 21, it doesn’t even apply anymore)…it just never ends.  Plus, he has questioned every single provision of our MSA had so for 4 years now I’ve been justifying, defending and explain a MSA that we both agreed to 15 years ago,  as though he was totally ignorant or unaware or somehow taken advantage of now all these years later…when it’s now time to square up on itI heard NO complaints about any concerns with the MSA until it became a reality that we need to square up and that means paying me the balance owed….after all my debts are paid and accounted for… of $55,000.

I have mentally tortured myself over this for the last 4 years…did I trick him into something?  No.  Is the MSA unfair?  No, it was very reasonable and we both made contributions and it was a give and take we both agreed to.  Am I a bad person for insisting he close his agreements with me?  I truly feel like I’m stuck in some kind of Alice in Wonderland alternate universe with him.  Anytime I try to communicate about  it  with him, it just gets all confused and turns into a big circular argument…I mean, we don’t yell at each other, but it’s circular nonetheless.  It’s crazy-making.   It’s how I felt when I was married to him.  In the marriage, I eventually just gave up and divorced him.  I was basically saying…I give!   And I feel he’s expecting me to eventually just walk away from this, too…so that he doesn’t have to buy me out at all…he will just wear me down.   But…I really took a hit since 2007…I truly cannot afford to just be cavalier and walk away from this buy-out.

   

I’m making one more request that he settle this with the help of our mediator once and for all.  If he won’t…I feel I have two options.  1) take him to court  2) walk away from the whole thing

I can’t believe that after all this time, and in using a mediator to avoid just this kind of thing…I may have to actually take my ex H to court to get this resolved.  I hate being in this position.  I hate it.  I am back to having to feel like a bad person if I take care of myself with this man.   He knows I would do anything to avoid taking legal action against him, and he seems to feel like he’s being victimized.  Meanwhile, he keeps my money, and he has a thriving business, investment properties, well over $100,000 in one IRA that I know about.  He prides himself on being the most Ghandi like, self-sacrificing, saint of a man that has ever lived.  I don’t need a saint, I just want us to honor our agreements. 

People close to me are so frustrated that I have let this go on for four years and can’t understand why I just didn’t hire an attorney to advocate on my behalf and put some teeth into it.  They point out, it would likely be done and over with quickly if I’d just say enough, and hire an attorney and quit all this nonsense.  But I then feel too guilty to go after him that way, I keep thinking we can work this out…but…the clock is ticking…while I’m trying to start over again financially after this recession…he and his gf just live in my home and keep spending money on improvements.

 

I feel like I’m really being tested here…like I’m really going to have to bite the bullet and stick up for myself and hire an attorney.   Then I get this horribly anxious feeling and become wracked with guilt when I think about actually doing that.  My daughter seems to idealize her father, like he’s a saint.  My daughter also doesn’t like the new gf who has taken over house for the last 4 years…my daughter has tried everything to be friendly and warm, but this gf is just cold and odd…I think the gf suffers from depression.  So now my daughter feels uncomfortable in her own home…and she is constantly worried about her dad…because she thinks his gf is not a nice person.

God... .  does this stuff ever end?  Do I have to actually take my ex H to court to break out of this cycle? I know I'm part of the problem... .  I'm contributing to this.  I know I am.   

[Maryiscontrary]

Again, I want to disclose that I likely do not have the emotional processing abilities that you do, so this is my humble opinion. I have to set boundaries real hard and fast so that I will not devestate myself with crappy humans.

Go to an attorney and have him write a nice letter to your ex. I was too at one time docile, but not anymore. He is not listening to you, so you must wake him up with a loving slap to the testicles.

This person is screwing you around, and he is playing into the deep codependent schema thing you have. He seems narcissistic, with his preoccupation with looking so saintly. Again, this is clearly ass whole behavior, and he does not want to LISTEN to you.

[Maryiscontrary]

Here is what I would say,

"Sweetheart, I know you have been busy with the house, and are probably overwhelmed. But I want to settle for my half of the asset tomorrow. What time tomorrow is good for you to meet at Starbucks?

... .  blah blah blad from him

Oh, you don't have time? Well, darling, I have tried to resolve this with you for 6 months, and I ask that you make time tomorrow, honey.

... .  yackity yak from him... .  

Oh, so you aren't available. Well, do we need to handle this the attorney, pumpkin. I will need to work with you through an attorney, unfortunately, because I need to get this settle tomorrow, snukums.

...

... Ok, this is how I would do it. Just lovingly and compassionately go straight for the jugular.

[MaybeSo]

I was too at one time docile, but not anymore.

Yes, I thought I'd made a lot of improvement, but I see that I'm still very easily drawn to this kind of internal processing.

Many have told me, get a attorney to write the letter. In their opinion, the minute he gets a letter from an attorney that means business... .  this will get resovled very quickly.  If I have to pay a attorney to advocate for me, the MSA stipulates my ex is responsible for the attorneys fees.  I'm told this alone will likely bring this to a conclusion very quickly.

Insert Quote

Here is what I would say,

"Sweetheart, I know you have been busy with the house, and are probably overwhelmed. But I want to settle for my half of the asset tomorrow. What time tomorrow is good for you to meet at Starbucks?

... .  blah blah blad from him

Oh, you don't have time? Well, darling, I have tried to resolve this with you for 6 months, and I ask that you make time tomorrow, honey.

... .  yackity yak from him... .  

Oh, so you aren't available. Well, do we need to handle this the attorney, pumpkin. I will need to work with you through an attorney, unfortunately, because I need to get this settle tomorrow, snukums.

...

... Ok, this is how I would do it. Just lovingly and compassionately go straight for the jugular.

This is hysterical. It at least helps to laugh about it... .  

If I just move forward, it will feel so good to have it done once and for all. And, I will also have to sit with my own feelings... .  guilt, fear, whatever once it's done... .  and by letting this go on and on... .  I'm avoiding those feelings.   

[MaybeSo]

MaybeSO, I'm so sorry you are going through this. You sound like a kind and compassionate person who doesn't want to hurt someone you care about.  I have to agree with Maryiscontrary, it sounds like he's taking advantage of you.  It is in our coD tendencies to want to smooth things over and take the nice way out.  Unfortunately he's not thinking of your best interest nor your daughter's for that matter. 

When I divorced my uNPDh 12 years ago, I too wanted to be kind, I agreed to use the same lawyer as my exH, fast forward to now and I'm still struggling to make ends meet.  He's a millionaire.  He did support my children, I will never complain about that, but I supported them too and they spent most of their time with me, I raised them.  But just like you I didn't want to ruffle feathers or hurt someone I had cared about.  I wanted to try to take the positive way out but then we're in danger of not taking care of ourselves at their expense.  I'm not a gold digger, I didn't want to take him for all he's worth but it would've been nice to have something to show from the union that was ours together.  I supported him throughout our marriage, you did for your husband as well, it doesn't make us selfish that we would like to be treated with a little respect in the end.

You deserve this MaybeSo, it is your right.  Please seek an attorney's opinion and know that you are doing the right thing for yourself and your daughter.  One of the things that I'm starting to see in my own life is that when my own children see me stand for myself and fight if necessary, they learn that they too have the right to stand up for what they believe in.  I want them to be confident, kind people with strong opinions, I don't want them to suffer with the coD demons I have.  You have my support!

Faith, thank you for your support, I truly appreciate it.  I'm also embarassed. Reading my post over is very telling... .  and it's embarassing.   I'm acting like a victim. Oh look how I've been treated, what to do? what to do? What to do?  Well... .  be a normal grown up person and take care of your business... .  stay nice, but just wrap it up!  I've hand wrung for four years over this. I keep complaining that he's forced me to beg.  No, he hasn't. I chose to beg.  I could have hired an atty to get this done as soon as it was clear he was going to stall but keep making improvements on the house.  I'm embarrased how I've handled this.

[Maryiscontrary]

Here is the thing I am seeing. I am seeing a person, for whatever reason, does not think she deserves to protect her human real estate. Not your housing real estate, your human territory real estate. Why? Why the deference to the fake saint? He has no rights to trample on your real estate.


I had to distance myself from behaviors like that, and this included immediate family. These people have severe perceptual and empathetic failures, aka loose screws, and if a person subsidizes that, then it only perpetuates the dysfunction. You are hurting that person by allowing them to treat you doormatish. You are perpetuating a fantasy of theirs, that ignore the 9 billion pound elephant in the room.


So, it is ok to be assertive, it is the moral and right thing to do. You can tell yourself that when you experience the guilt and shame.

[maria1]

Hi Maybeso and others

I read your post yesterday but didn't have time to respond. I'm so glad the other posters have said what I wanted to say. My two penneth is- don't bother with the mediation again, go straight for the attorney- let him think what he thinks; he is doing what he's doing because he can and will as long s he gets away with it.

Your post really hit a chord for me because I have a similar situation in that I cannot confront a financial issue I think for same reasons of codependency. The father of my children  didn't pay me any child support until a year ago even though we have been split for 4 years. That's because we share the childcare of 2 kids 50/50 and I somehow went along with his view that he shouldn't pay anything even though the official maintenance calculator (UK) says he should pay me £250 a month. We  agreed on £100 6 months ago and then £150 more recently- I asked for more even more recently and he said he will try to as and when.

All my friends say I am not asking for enough. I struggle to make ends meet.

I saw ex's accounts for last year at a profit of £80k, he doesn't know I saw them; they come to my house still. Last week he told me his profits were £34k after tax as if he is badly off. I earn £35k before tax.

Anyway that's al just to illustrate that I can say to you just call your ex out with th attorney but I cannot do it to my ex. The repercussions against my children is what stops me. Please don't beat yourself up about this. Some people are really good at taking advantage of nice people like you and it isn't fair. You are trying to be fair and care about him and he is playing that against you.

Wish I could say it is cleverly as the others on here but all I can say really is:  IT ISN'T NICE. YOU ARE NICE. YOU ROCK. Look after you.

[maria1]

Maryiscontrary- just need to add that you ROCK too- fantastic advice

[P.F.Change]

You've made some good observations about yourself in this thread, MaybeSo. You have noticed your role in this getting dragged out... .  you know you are going to have to try a different strategy if you want a different result. Nothing wrong with that! What must hurt is that someone you trusted has turned out not to be so trustworthy. Next time I bet you will get all the legal stuff settled on paper first before entering agreements with anyone... .  even people who seem like friends. You are learning ways to better care for yourself. I think it's a lifelong process.

From what you write about your ExH, he seems to have a sense of entitlement and a need for admiration. He gaslights and manipulates you and is not able to hear other points of view. Hmm... .  

You already know how he responds to you being "nice." He will use you and use you some more. Try a new strategy. I think your idea to just go for the attorney this time is a good idea. (Also might not be a bad idea to review your copy of Splitting or share it with your L. Just in case.)

You are worried what your daughter will think. She's a grown up now... .  she can handle it. Daddy may need to be seen as perfect, but it is not your job to help him protect that image. Your job is to model for your daughter how to stand up for herself. If she gets to see that both of her parents are human beings, that's just a bonus.

Keep us posted on how things go.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[heartandwhole]

Hi MaybeSo,

I agree with everyone here - get the attorney, pronto    You have been more than accommodating with him, it's time to look out for YOUR best interests.  I know how hard it is to take action, to establish a boundary - these codependent tendencies are so tenacious, so please don't feel embarrassed about it, we have all been there (and I'm still there  )

Your wants and needs matter.  My T told me just today that having boundaries and consequences are perfectly compatible with being kind and empathic - leave the guilt behind and you go, girl!  

[Grey Kitty]

God... .  does this stuff ever end?  Do I have to actually take my ex H to court to break out of this cycle? I know I'm part of the problem... .  I'm contributing to this.  I know I am.   

I am kinda joining the crowd a bit late... .  but here's my take:

It sure sounds like you have to be willing to take him to court if you want this to be resolved on your schedule rather than at his whims, which seem to be waiting until it is dealt with in his will at this rate. You have asked nicely waaaaaaay to many times.

Let your attorney speak softly and carry a big stick for you.

[MaybeSo]

I struggle to make ends meet.

Me too!  My income went way down since 2007 with the economy, then 2 years ago my bf with borderline traits,  kicked me out of our home with no warning... .  this was while I was a year into begging my ex husband to STOP spending money on improvements on my home with his new gf and buy me out!  I literally had to beg my ex husband to forward a portion of what was due me toward my buy-out... .  just to put a downpayment on and rent a teeny tiny little cottage when my BPD ex went bonkers... .  I mean, it was like 600 square feet... .  super small.  I was not upset about the cottage, it was my safe-haven, I don't need much, ... .  but I was upset that I was begging my ex husband for my own money while in a crises!   I have since had many days panicking that I don't have enough cash for gas to get to work, I'm looking under my car seat for quarters, there are times when I have had almost no cash for food at the end of a payperiod.   I lived on grapefruits shortly after moving because I had NO money for groceries, just some change... .  so I bought grapefruits and I ate crackers.  What I eventually did was move away from where I have lived for 20 years... .  and where my family and freinds are, and relocated to where I was working in my internship... .  it's an isolated area where the cost of living is much much lower... .  but that's because it's so isolated!   A lot of poor people live here.  Now I do, too.  It's gorgeous country, I love it, but it takes me farther away from my daughter and my former life!  Things are slowly turing around because now I'm finishing my internship and I'm getting more established, and I've been so frugal for 5 years now,  that I've been able to pay bills no matter what... .  and this has kept my credit rating up. Now, the fact that the economy went south etc. is NOT my ex husbands fault.  The fact that I was bullied out my home by my unstable ex bf is also NOT my ex husbands fault.  These are my life experiences, I don't want or expect him to rescue me.  But... .  he really should have bought me out 4 years ago when the gf moved in with him.  That was our agreement.  It pissed me off that he just blew off our agreement and forged ahead with remodeling the house, anyway.  God danm it!  I was literally holed up in a cottage begging him for my money while he and his gf were installing a new kitchen in my 3 bedroom home one town away!   Why didn't I just call an attorney then?  Who wouldn't have at least attempted to take action to protect their interest?

Here is the thing I am seeing. I am seeing a person, for whatever reason, does not think she deserves to protect her human real estate. Not your housing real estate, your human territory real estate. Why?

Yea.  I don't feel I deserve to protect my interests.  It is soo hard for to feel like I can fight for something or try to keep something that is valuable. Why?  Because I am afraid. Afraid of being seen as a bad person, pushy, a gold digger, unreasonable, shrill, mean, btchy.  Also, to be perfectly honest, my EX was the keeper of "THE RECORDS".  Because he was SOO anal and tracked everything... .  I didn't.  Now I see that, in being lax this way, I again wasn't taking very good care of myself, because what happened is... .  when it was time to sqaure all this up... .  he was like Ebinezer Scrooge... .  with his pointy nose and thick spectacles... .  going through reams of paper work... .  hmmm, let's see what you OWE ME... .  well, that put me in a one-down position of  fear and wondering... .  hmmm, yea, I wonder what he has on me?  I wonder what I do owe HIM? I think I know what I owe him? But, maybe I owe him much more than I thought?  I had a very good overall sense of exactly what I owed him... .  but he was Mr. Details, and I was more... .  yea... .  I think this will come out to about $50,000 when you buy me out.  I didn't have the DETAILED records to back all that up... .  and HE DID.  He tracked everything for 15 years!  He tracked stuff I didn't even know he was tracking!  I just basically kept stuff mostly in my head, and just some records, what I thought were big important things, I kept.   But he tracked EVERYTHING.   Month after month he would say... .  "OH, I have to check another ledger, Oh, I have to have my accountant examin that again, Oh, I have to go back and look and my checkbook from 2001-2005".  So, I was always afraid that if I got all uppty and hired an attorney, my ex would run into the courtroom with the big fat smoking gun... .  "LOOK, SHE borrowed $100,000 back in 2002 and just forgot about it... .  but I HAVE THE RECORDS  SEE!"   So, I was lazy about record keeping, and to his credit, he wasn't.  And that gave him a big one-up on me... .  and it was a big part of his excuse for taking FOUR YEARS now to hash all this out.  Again, in my learning curve, what that says to me is, HE was taking REALLY good care of his himself, and I was not... .   I was asleep at the wheel and not keeping detailed records.  That was not smart on my part. It kept me in a dependent, fearful state... .  and I did that to myself.  In the end, there were NO big surprises. he does owe me $55,000.   But his Scrooge routine really intimidated me, and it didn't have to be that way if I'd kept scrupulous, detailed records, too. This is why DEPENDENCY issues SUCK!

[Maryiscontrary]

Why?  Because I am afraid. Afraid of being seen as a bad person, pushy, a gold digger, unreasonable, shrill, mean, btchy.".


Lol... I am nothing but a shrew, according to the gaslighting chauvinistic men in my life. Lol. Do I seem like I am sorry for the narcissistic injuries caused  for the people who want to trample all over me? Yeh, right! Poor babies.

I mean, it is one thing if you use people, or are cruel. But no man will lay hands on my property without getting a swift beheading or impalment.

Men that want to basically steal from you, which he is doing, can go suck a bag of d... .  ks.

[P.F.Change]

I was literally holed up in a cottage begging him for my money while he and his gf were installing a new kitchen in my 3 bedroom home one town away!   Why didn't I just call an attorney then?  Who wouldn't have at least attempted to take action to protect their interest?

I don't feel I deserve to protect my interests. It is soo hard for to feel like I can fight for something or try to keep something that is valuable. Why?  Because I am afraid. Afraid of being seen as a bad person, pushy, a gold digger, unreasonable, shrill, mean, btchy.

On the one hand, you say you feel you do not deserve to protect your interests. You seem to believe that if you do, you are bad, greedy, vindictive, aggressive, mean. Where does that belief come from? What would the difference be between someone who deserves to stand up for himself and someone who does not?

You also seem to be beating yourself up for not protecting your interests sooner. It's like you are going to criticize yourself whether you do or whether you don't... .  you're making a no-win scenario where you are bad no matter what. Do you know anyone else in your life who might have initially given you that message--maybe a parent?

You can't go back and change the past, but you can learn from it. Take what you learn and make different choices in the future.

FWIW, to me your ex doesn't sound as much like a Detail man as he does a Control man, MaybeSo. The details may just be the means.

  Wow, this is exactly the way I always felt with my uxNPDh!

Hmmm... .  

PF

[MaybeSo]

For me, this is still deep FOO stuff. My father has a good reputation, is a very likable guy, and I adored him. He also left us when I was 5 to be with the woman he had started an affair with; he was absent a good part of the time, his new gf was very borderline, so all of his time was spent coddling her. I never complained because I feared any complaint might result in loosing him completely. He and his crazy gf also sent the message to me and my sister that the reason she (the new gf) is so unhappy is our fault... .  if we were just... .  more... .  something... .  she would be nicer. Now, I realize, this woman is deeply insecure and has a lot of borderline traits. But as a kid, I thought I had the responsibility of navigating carefully around these adults for fear of being abandoned by them if I didn't ... .  So, I was a good sport and never complained. If you want to raise a co dependent child, you can use my upbringing as the model to follow.

I have wondered about NPD re my ex husband a lot. Here's the very confusing part. He is not a

rager, he wasn't a cheater, he was in many many ways such a good guy. Very well loved by all,

he has a lot of admirers, he is much more connected in large circles than I am or ever will be.

It's hard to consider someone NPD without some of the more overt, dramatic acting out. He's

very well contained... .  his affect is flat most of the time. I never felt I could make a strong

emotional connection with him, and I remember he almost never would maintain good eye

contact with me, even when being intimate, his eyes were always closed,  and he seemed totally

inside of himself and his experience, but  not connecting with me. His father was clinically

depressed on and off his whole childhood, he was the oldest and became the stand-in surrogate

dad to his younger sibs, and the surrogate husband to his mom. I would describe it as an emotionally incestuous environment. His father attempted suicide a lot, I know his childhood was

pretty traumatic. Yet, his family have this bigger than life image of the loving, close knit family,

everyone is very close and they have a image of being the greatest, most giving people. If you critique, you feel ashamed... ,like, maybe you are just jealous or are too screwed up to handle all this greatness.

[MaybeSo]

So, we met one last time with the mediator.

He clearly didn't want to, he prefers to 'negotiate' with me behind closed doors with no professional meddling.

I don't know how to feel about what happened. For me I'm just glad it's over... . well, almost over.

But I have a couple of close friends that have seen this go on for 4 years and they are going to see this as me allowing myself To get screwed.

He owed me 78k based on the MSA.

He was pushing for me to pay him back 1/2 down payment on the house bought 20 years ago

when I was a new mom, daughter was a baby. He is 10 years older than me, he had funds to

put down payment on a home for us, I was a new college grad, I didn't have money like that.

Paying him back for the down on the house was never part of the marriage settlement; he

started demanding that recently, said he it was a mistake that it wasn't in the MSA. I just think

it's crappy that providing a house for his wife and child is viewed as a business deal and he feels

victimized if I don't pay him back, mind you, I always worked, and I took over 100 per cent of

the mortgage when we split... Did that for 10 years. Still , in the meeting he just seemed

incredulous still that he wouldn't be paid off for that, so I agreed to it. I also agreed to 1/2 of

all my daughters college expenses past age 18, also not part of the MSA.

That brought me to 55k.

He then offered 45k cash, no waiting to sell the house etc.

This floored me because really, he could come up with 55k too, without selling the house. If he sells the house to pay me off, he is asking for thousands more from me to help pay 1/2 of repairs needed on roof, deck etc. The mediator pointed out that's not how it works, but you could tell he was just incredulous.

So, the 45k offer would get me out of all this b.s. With him but I've gone from 78 to 45 ... I know 1/2 the equity in the house for me is at least 50k alone.

When I didn't answer the mediator told him... The reason she is not answering is because you keep lowering her amount, she already offered 55k which is giving you what you want, and you are still asking to lower it even more. He just looked at her and said "I know".  Very righteous. He truly came off as the victim, though the mediator obviously didn't see him that way. I felt extremely uncomfortable. I felt so upset, not about the money but what itcrepresents emotionally to me. Every push he makes, feels like hecis saying "you don't deserve any of this, you are so lucky I give you anything at all."

In the end I settled for 50k.

If any of his execution of this falls apart, or he reneges, I hire an Atty.

Omg, I rather get a root canal than ever discuss this with him again.

[maria1]

Maybeso

What an absolute ****** your ex is.

I think you did well. You are out and it is over. Your friends don't know what it's like to be subjected to his nastiness so try not to let them get to you. I had the same sort of stuff from my ex when he was incredulous I didn't equate taking on half the debt he left me with as just money off the value of the house I bought him out of. He refused to factor in the interest I would pay on the debt.

In the end I just couldn't cope with teh conversation or the arguing and know just what you mean when you say you'd rather get root canal than discuss this with him again. Hopefully your good friends are good enough to support you in this.

It's all swings and roundabouts and in my opinion what matters is that you walk out free of him without sinking to his level. That's what got me through. Money doesn't matter as much as integrity and you are worth millions of him on that score. Funnily enough I was just listening to Billy Bragg's new album as I read your post and the track came on ':)o unto others', so very apt.

[MaybeSo]

Maria, thank you!  

Considering who I was dealing with, I think I probably did alright. My instinct the whole 4 years was to just walk away completely, but I didn't. That's what I would have done in years past. So, I give myself credit for at least hanging in there and not walking away and requiring we do this with a professional. I know others would have taken it to court and ended this sooner, probably a very smart thing to do,  and probably with better results. But I still have to be true to myself and at least I hung in there.

Yes, do unto others. Very apropos.

[seeking balance]

Well done - you acted rationally and like an adult - and the best part is it is over.

There are times we must stand up for ourselves, and you did - cheers to you!

Peace,

SB

[Maryiscontrary]

You are seeing him for who he really is. Seriously sleazy and PD.

I am glad you are away from him. I am glad you are here.

[AnotherPhoenix]

  MayBeSo,

Way to go!

AnotherPheonix   

[MaybeSo]

Maryiscontrary, SeekingBalance, Another Pheonix and Maria, and all who have responded to this thread... .

Thank you for your support. I truly appreciate it and I am soo glad to be FINALLY ending this chapter!   

[GreenMango]

$55k is a lot of money.  Don't know how old you are but that's a retirement nest egg.  I hope he sticks with it.

If this gets any more squirrely with him an attorney to enforce the full letter of the contract seems quite reasonable to me.

This floored me because really, he could come up with 55k too, without selling the house. If he sells the house to pay me off, he is asking for thousands more from me to help pay 1/2 of repairs needed on roof, deck etc. The mediator pointed out that's not how it works, but you could tell he was just incredulous.

This is funny- not haha funny but slippery funny.

Check this out maybe for leverage to settle this since you two a have a binding legal contract which stipulates coownership on the property, 50-50 split equity and if you haven't signed anything on paperwork about the relenquishing any added value from renovations in the event of a sale pointing out the loss of his renovation investment may help shake this loose.

Keep watch out for any fanagling over having you put your portion of the renovation costs in and totally wierd right that would be close to $50k.   Renovations are great but unless its a sqft addition with increases in bedroom/bathroom #s, or increase in land, the high end renovations don't pencil like that.  They are done for comfort and longterm owner occupancy not geared towards realizing a tremendous increase in assessed value or seeing a huge return on investment immediately - in this market and unless its NYC proper, Georgetown, Santa Monica, London, etc I'd guess 5 years to break even minimum on a 100k interior renovation only.  A 40k kitchen and 10k in hardwood floors really doesn't equate to a 50k increase in assessed value dollar for dollar.  He might be surprised how little he gets out of it if he has to sell to pay you.

He can pay you the 55k or he can give fifty percent from the newly assessed value after renovations (which conveniently you didn't have to pay for) if it wasn't stipulated that you got a set dollar figure.  Check with your attorney you may be able to leverage his 100k loss of remodel investment to get your 55k (or actually 75k if you want to get sticky).

There's two ways to skin a cat.  This isn't being a jerk, its business.  And it sounds like his renovation has gotten costly and over extended.  Non married two party ownership on a property remodel can get really messy and most people have a business partnership in this instance.  Contracts are written for a reason and slide of hand when its convenient for someone is frowned upon.  You aren't doing anything wrong going after what is yours.

Id tie this up with an attorney anyways... . god forbid something happens with the renovations and the contractor liens the property.  Then you are on the hook for 50% of that too.  It sounds like he made a poor investment impulsively despite the fact he has net worth and refuses to pay you too.  Sometimes these situations turn into land rich/cash poor and he might be squeezed for cash.

[Maryiscontrary]

If you get enforcement, you can levy his accounts with a writ of execution.