What is going on?/Just call me JADE/Face2Palm

[GustheDog]

Yes, the online recent gal.  This: "I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with dating a married woman and send her on her way".

This is a put down after making contact and asking her about her separation. 

Explain separation.

I'm separated.

Ewww, I don't date separated people.

What the hay?

She made contact with me initially.  I inquired regarding her status.  I received a reply that confirmed my suspicions and which resultantly crosses one of my boundaries.  My plan is to politely reply that I hope she finds what she's looking for but that I'm not comfortable with her situation.

What would be your approach?

[kahnighit]

Gus,

I totally get the letter and the what the heck realization that "I may be doomed to repeat this!"

To those that think ill of the letter: I've got an entire folder of letters just like those.  For me they are penned really as a last ditch effort to be heard.  Face-to-face talks were circular conversations where all the side-stepping, shifting focus, emotional deregulation and any other knee-jerk automatic manipulations were put into play by the BPDother.  "The Letter" is the only way in which one can express themselves without being forced through the verbal obstacle course that is a confrontation with a BPD.  No interruptions mean I can finally carry a point/thought/argument through to its conclusion.  

I have an even bigger folder of such letters which were never sent.  I, just this week, penned a 3000 word diatribe to my exBPD on the heels of me breaking NC when she contacted me with a text saying "Congratulations, you were right."  Much like that conversation itself; sending that letter will gain me nothing.  Likewise it's folly to think it's going to have any effect on her.  Someone said in a different thread "the disorder always wins."  It's arrogance on my part if I believe my words, no matter how finely crafted, are going to break through.  I'm also setting myself up for a letdown.  

So I write them.  At the time with the mindset of venting and probably with a bit of hope I'll be heard.  Gus said he's in the conflict management field.  Well he can attest to the fact that the first thing you do with anyone who's upset for whatever reason is let them know they are heard.  It's human nature.  "I'm pissed," is always followed with "let me tell you why."  Now if we were dealing with normal people maybe these letters would have some effect.  Except, if we were dealing with normal people these letters would never have needed to be written in the first place.  Since they are written to a BPD they, in all likelyhood, won't have an effect.  Well not the one intended anyway.  They'll probably be seen through some sort of "look at all the effort put in.  he still cares," attention/affirmation filter.  Anyway, they don't get sent.  I'm not going to add fuel, they don't deserve to know my mind and it won't have the initial intended effect anyway.

But writing them is therapeutic for me.  It's a release and it's also a way to sort out the chaos.  Sorting out that chaos is just impossible in real time with them.  It gives me perspective and it helps to put the anger on the page.  It's kind of a transference as it's less I'm carrying with me.

Speaking of anger... .  Gus and RJ both commented on it. I posted previously here that it had consumed me.  it still does to varying degrees.  The upside of it, if you can call it that, is that the two conversations I've had with my ex over the last month that anger has kept me safe.  It is a defense mechanism which deflected every attempt by her to dish out some FOG.  "I know you better than anyone," she says.  "what's the worth of being known by the morally reprehensible?" I respond.  While I fully admit that anger is no healthy way to live it is, for me, a necessary buffer while the degree to which I care wanes.  I hope that once I no longer care and have fully moved on with my life that anger towards her will disappear or at least transform into pity.

Gus, you're clearly intelligent, self aware and articulate.  Unfortunately for you/us I identify with your struggles.  To an uncanny degree.  God I hope you work through these cause if you can maybe so can I.  Seriously, reading your posts compels me to want to have a beer with you, trade war stories and/or concoct some sort of master plan to beat our woes.

[GustheDog]

Thanks for the thoughtful message, kahnighit.

I'm likewise aware that the letters have no constructive impact, at least with respect to getting through to the pwBPD.  Really, they serve only to confirm for her that I am a bad man.  But, for me, like you said, they are therapeutic.  *I* know I've got the logic right - *I* know what I'm saying is truth.  It's the same reason I made a timeline of my BPD r/s - another means of papering the facts.  I'm right, she's not, and if she doesn't want to live here in reality then she can go be miserable alone.

[Rose Tiger]

My bad, for some reason I thought you contacted her first.  Her contacting you, then you had every right to ask.  Sorry about that. 

Yes, the online recent gal.  This: "I'm going to tell her that I don't feel comfortable with dating a married woman and send her on her way".

This is a put down after making contact and asking her about her separation. 

Explain separation.

I'm separated.

Ewww, I don't date separated people.

What the hay?

She made contact with me initially.  I inquired regarding her status.  I received a reply that confirmed my suspicions and which resultantly crosses one of my boundaries.  My plan is to politely reply that I hope she finds what she's looking for but that I'm not comfortable with her situation.

What would be your approach?

[just me.]

People - the email was INTENDED to be offensive.  I was INTENTIONALLY being a giant pr*ck.

I would also note that this was the final piece of correspondence that followed countless attempts to approach this woman and have a warm, caring, and open discussion with her.  That does not suddenly make a nasty, insulting email "okay," but it certainly wasn't my first shot across the bow.

It wasn't a nice thing to do, and I never maintained that it was.  I posted it here because I felt it was important to share just how angry these invalidating behaviors make me.  I didn't post it here to defend or justify it.

For what it's worth - I understood the intention, and I didn't actually think you were being a giant pr*ck.

If somebody were to see some of the things that I said to my ex, they could easily say "yuck, nobody should ever say things like that!"  I know plenty of her friends would hear that I had told her that I thought something was "wrong" with her, and the canned response is "How mean!  How awful!  You don't deserve to be told that!  What a meanie!  Poor you needing to deal with someone like that!"

It becomes circular, of course... .  and the eventual validation that they "earn" through their cruelty by receiving evidence to establish their victim-hood is one of the unbearable frustrations that we deal with her in detachment.

If somebody does absolutely everything possible to hurt, destroy, and betray you, then I think it is entirely reasonable to state a case in your defense.  If that defense reveals some of your own anger, then I'm inclined to think that's okay.  Maybe sending these letters doesn't really "help", but it's still a symbol of you being honest with yourself and your feelings.

Anyway... .  yeah... .  you're getting no negative judgment from me.  I think the forum would benefit from us being able to share these types of moments freely.  Like so many other things shared here, seeing the similarity in our feelings and experiences is therapeutic in these cases as well.

[Newton]

ermmmm... .  read what justme. said... .  often 

[GustheDog]

Rose Tiger - No worries.

just me & Newton - Thanks.  I agree with all of the above.  It's just such a sinister dynamic - but, in time, all future rescuers will learn the truth.

I can honestly say that, placed in the same situation, I'd write and send the same email.  It was mean, but I'm also not ashamed of it.

The key piece, I think, is knowing enough about prevention to never be in that situation again in the first place.

[Maryiscontrary]

Gus, let me sum up what I am seeing.

1. You want to be heard, and you do not feel like you are being heard.

2. You are lonely and you want to connect.

These are perfectly valid feelings. But as a person who can wield a vicious pen myself, whenever I have wrote these letters, I was never heard, and I never connected, and it jarred my nervous system greatly. I am just talking from experience. I never got what I wanted dressing people down, even if they richly deserved it.

And Gus, I scare the hell out of people. Even when I am not doing anything. So knowing this, I am learning not to lash out. I mean, what if my eloquent words sent a depressed person over then edge and they killed themselves? I don't want that responsibility on my head. I just don't lash out like I used to. I dont want to harm others.

Stay focused on this.  Stay on this. Really get this figured out. It will attenuate over time.

[GustheDog]

Gus, let me sum up what I am seeing.

1. You want to be heard, and you do not feel like you are being heard.

2. You are lonely and you want to connect.

These are perfectly valid feelings. But as a person who can wield a vicious pen myself, whenever I have wrote these letters, I was never heard, and I never connected, and it jarred my nervous system greatly. I am just talking from experience. I never got what I wanted dressing people down, even if they richly deserved it.

And Gus, I scare the hell out of people. Even when I am not doing anything. So knowing this, I am learning not to lash out. I mean, what if my eloquent words sent a depressed person over then edge and they killed themselves? I don't want that responsibility on my head. I just don't lash out like I used to. I dont want to harm others.

Stay focused on this.  Stay on this. Really get this figured out. It will attenuate over time.

Fair points, Mary.  As with everything else in the wake of this experience, much introspection and self-evaluation is in order here.  I'll be considering all perspectives as I move forward.

Why do you perceive that you scare people?

[just me.]

Back to your original point, though, Gus... .

When did you actually learn about BPD and connect this to your relationships?  It wasn't until after this last one, right?

[Maryiscontrary]

Gus, I am extremely ambitious and no BS person. And assertive. And pretty technical. Most women are not like this and this scares a lot of insecure people. Top it off with being a little eccentric. And the ability to out argue and out maneuver. For instance, My bulldog attorney and I collaborate as partners in this divorce. I look up statues and loopholes. I help her build the case. I am not an attorney.

I have been told that I am a bulldozer.

If a person realizes that they just are not going to control me, then it's fine. But this is often just not the case.

[GustheDog]

Back to your original point, though, Gus... .

When did you actually learn about BPD and connect this to your relationships?  It wasn't until after this last one, right?

That is correct.  The relationship that led me to discovering BPD and these boards lasted from spring 2010 through fall 2012.  That's the one that did me in.

It also made me see the pattern.  I'm very thankful to now be able to recognize this, but it's also rather unsettling - i.e., to realize that I have probably never had a romantic encounter of any appreciable duration with a mentally/emotionally healthy woman.  On the upside, I can take it easy on myself.  I'm quite accustomed to people (from FOO onward) telling me things are my fault and that I am bad or wrong or messed up.  I have issues, yes, but not the sort that these people have imputed to me and which I've accepted for so long.  I can't tell you how liberating that feels.

[GustheDog]

Gus, I am extremely ambitious and no BS person. And assertive. And pretty technical. Most women are not like this and this scares a lot of insecure people. Top it off with being a little eccentric. And the ability to out argue and out maneuver. For instance, My bulldog attorney and I collaborate as partners in this divorce. I look up statues and loopholes. I help her build the case. I am not an attorney.

I have been told that I am a bulldozer.

If a person realizes that they just are not going to control me, then it's fine. But this is often just not the case.

These traits you mention - I can relate.  I'm also eccentric and a bit of a polymath (both things once celebrated by exBPD later used to situate me on the Austism spectrum as a devaluing measure).

I wonder, though, is it possible that when you encounter men in whom some of your own traits are prominent that you are likely to be concerned that they are NPD?

[Maryiscontrary]

Dear Gus,

Not really. I will admit and apologize if I cause a problem, but understand, there are very, very few women who are like this, so I stick out. The problem is not mine.

I do greatly value people with shared values.