trying to pretend i'm withholding the kids

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My husband rarely tries to see the kids and almost never takes any responsibility for them, but now that we are separated, he keeps sending me emails saying i'm withholding them from him.  i guess he is trying to make the case that that's why he hasn't been involved at all.  i keep having to respond to this by saying it's not true, just in case he tries to use it.  very frustrating.  and he has kicked it up to harassment by calling me over and over and over and over, saying it's about the kids, then yelling at me when i talk to him.  ugh.  i told my lawyer, but what can she really do?  she doesn't want me to get a restraining order because that just gives him incentive to lie and try to get back at me somehow... .  but i feel trapped! i was prevented from doing my work on tuesday because of the incessant calls and texts. no matter how much i document, i wonder if i can really prove all this nonsense and what else i should be doing. 

[momtara]

My husband rarely tries to see the kids and almost never takes any responsibility for them, but now that we are separated, he keeps sending me emails saying i'm withholding them from him.  i guess he is trying to make the case that that's why he hasn't been involved at all.  i keep having to respond to this by saying it's not true, just in case he tries to use it.  very frustrating.  and he has kicked it up to harassment by calling me over and over and over and over, saying it's about the kids, then yelling at me when i talk to him.  ugh.  i told my lawyer, but what can she really do?  she doesn't want me to get a restraining order because that just gives him incentive to lie and try to get back at me somehow... .  but i feel trapped! i was prevented from doing my work on tuesday because of the incessant calls and texts. no matter how much i document, i wonder if i can really prove all this nonsense and what else i should be doing. 

[DreamGirl]

My husband was a "divorce-activated" Dad. While he was married, he wasn't really present and where he became so much more active once he got a divorce.

Schedules really help parenting time disagreements. Is there a schedule that you could both come up with for the time being?

Every other weekend?  

[motherof1yearold]

Hey I don't know if you made up that term or what DreamGirl but that describes my ex BPD husband! Thanks haha!

So my ex was a , so called, divorce activated Dad, as dreamgirl put it, and he actually DID withhold my child for 30 full days after exhibiting behavior like you just described.

MAKE SURE you get the upper hand here. File for an emergency motion if possible. Children are unfortunately great weapons.

-speaking from experience here-

[Forward2free]

Regardless of what your L says, you need to set strong boundaries so that your ex doesn't continue his war path.

In my experience, N/BPDxh didn't improve on his own, it did take a stint in a psych ward and a protection order. Initially I didn't take one out because I thought it would make him worse and I put up with the tirade of hate and anger for 5+ years. All this while he moved out, lived his life, new girlfriends, dropped in to the house when he felt like it and called me to blame me almost constantly for keeping the kids from him. I wish I had done it sooner.

Will it get worse before it gets better, maybe. But as you would know, nothing that you do or do not do will change your H behavior for the better. He is the only one in control of that.

Can you change your phone number? Maybe set a boundary of a time that he can call, ie. between 6pm and 7pm on X day'/s per week. Tell him that calls outside of that time will not be answered. If it is an emergency, is there a friend of family member that he can call to pass a message to you?

Ask your L to demand that all correspondence be in writing only.

As DG suggested, set a schedule for visiting the children. Ask your L to come up with something that you are happy with.

[livednlearned]

My ex does the same, and for the most part, it seems to be a typical BPD formula.

1. Make wild accusations about "withholding" or "parental alienation"

2. Meanwhile, do the exact thing you are accusing the other parent of doing

3. When other parent bends over backwards to make children available, accuse them of only pretending to share the kids

4. Do not request additional time with the kids, despite making accusations that that's what you want

Once a court order with visitation is established, it will get easier. When will you find out about temporary orders for custody?

Have you already filed for temporary custody with a visitation schedule?

You can also send him an email that says: Please do not contact me by phone. I will not respond to phone messages. If you need to reach me, email me only about matters pertaining to the children, and I will get back to you within 24 hours. If there is an emergency, text message me.

[momtara]

I wish I had gotten a restraining order when this was going on a few days ago.  I guess I still can. 

I am very unnerved by this latest episode.

It frustrates me that hubby had no interest in helping with the kids, and is now trying to make the case that it's because I wouldn't LET him!

[ForeverDad]

I wish I had gotten a restraining order when this was going on a few days ago.  I guess I still can.

The longer you wait, the harder it gets.  Have you reported it to the police yet?  That will help, having a report in hand, in case your courts are closed until Monday.  Some places even have arrangements where the police can write up a 'no contact' order effective for long enough to follow it up in the courts a few days later.

[hadenoughtoo]

I set the ringtone for my ex to silent, if he did not have our son then there was no chance that he needed to speak to me because there was an emergency . That meant there was no reason for him to call or for me to answer.

They get us trained to respond and it takes time to break that urge to pacify them.

[momtara]

Well, in a new angle, he claims he came by today to pick up the kids, and I wasn't there!  Then he created some emails, backdated them, and sent them all to me, saying "I'm coming to pick up the kids tomorrow at 1."  I never got ANYTHING from him saying that. 

I feel like a judge is going to think we are both crazy, because how can you know who to believe?

I need to talk to a new lawyer.

[ForeverDad]

Backdated emails... .  Emails are typically displayed with simple headers.  Emails also contain data for "full headers" which include the data documenting when sent from the sender's email provider and when received by the recipient's email provider.  In other words, by selecting the display option for full headers you can probably prove he sent late or time-faked emails by printing them out with Full Headers displayed.  If it really becomes an issue in court.

[momtara]

Ooh, good idea!  But he is just pasting them into new emails, so it's not like he's re-forwarding the originals.  Still, all those things are good to know.

Who would even think someone would go that far?  It's mind blowing.

And now all the emails I have showing what's really going on... .  may seem invalid because they could be made up.

But here's a punchline... .  

He just sent me an email saying, "Are you mad at me?"

[momtara]

Oh, I did file police reports on Tuesday evening and then Friday morning.  So I'm good there.  They don't prove anything, but they can't hurt.

[ForeverDad]

Cut-n-paste doesn't prove a thing.

There may be good reason to ask the court to order a structured email system such as OFW - Our Family Wizard - which documents email communications in high conflict parenting.

[livednlearned]

Your ex sounds like he isn't very computer savvy -- if, like FD says, you can see the headers, and that does not match what he *cut and paste* into something else, then you can show that he is tampering with emails in order to make you look bad. One or two instances of him doing that probably won't get the courts attention, but if he does it repeatedly, and you can show that there is a pattern of him doing it, that will diminish his credibility in the eyes of the judge. Even if he is only doing it to intimidate you ( as opposed to trick the court ), it looks suspicious. There are no good reasons why someone would do what he is doing.

Don't tell your H that you're comparing his backdated *emails* to the originals, just collect them and make note of what he is doing. And be prepared to explain how this stuff works to your lawyer so he or she can explain to the judge what is happening. Even though we pay a lot of money for the lawyers, there is still a ton of work you need to do so your L can make sense of it and present it as evidence.

I've had to teach my lawyer a lot about how technology works -- it's to your advantage to learn this stuff because it's the kind of thing that might swing the "he said she said" your way.

[momtara]

How would I have originals?  All I have are the fake ones he cut and pasted into a new email and sent to me.  I'd have to get into his account to really find out when they were sent.  I think.

[Forward2free]

You won't have the originals and it will be hard to prove - all you can do is log all of the emails you do receive, but he is trying to paint you black and playing a mean game.

Make sure you respond to his email and state that you have not ever received the previous XX emails sent X and X and ask him to forward the originals to you for your records. The forward won't actually show much, but it will make him think twice about it, and perhaps calling his bluff will help.

[livednlearned]

How would I have originals?  All I have are the fake ones he cut and pasted into a new email and sent to me.  I'd have to get into his account to really find out when they were sent.  I think.

Also, you can have your L subpoena the original emails with headers that show the time and date stamp. It's part of the "discovery" process when you're preparing for a hearing or deposition.

It's really hard to see this stuff when you're in it, but when your ex does things that are dishonest, it's actually a gift to you. It's an Achilles heel for BPD sufferers -- they alter the facts to fit the feeling (emotional reasoning), which isn't how the rest of the world functions. When the lying is mild, we feel worried that the court won't see through our spouses. But when the lying is blatant, and can be proven, it gives us something concrete to work with. If it comes to light that your H is doctoring emails and trying to fit the facts to his own reality, and he's willing to play that game in court, he's in for a surprise.

Your L will request the original emails and most likely your ex will say he no longer has them. But it will have an effect -- your L will tell the courts that ex did not produce documents for discovery, and your ex will stop creating fake emails to intimidate you. That's my guess for what might happen. 

[DreamGirl]

It's hard not to get worked up in these situations.

It sounds like he's trying to build a case in Parental Alienation.

You're stating that he's alienated himself (by not partaking in the parenting while you were married) and he's stating that it's your doing that he's not been allowed to be a parent.

He also sounds like he's wanting to stay in this back and forth with you arguing about the kids and schedules.

It's important to shift focus on the kids. Always.

It's also important that kids are able to have both parents in their life. They deserve that much - even when the other parent is disordered. Minimizing the risks involved of having a disordered parent is what our job is as part of the non-disordered parenting duo. Sometimes that means limiting the time (like in LnL's situtation) and sometimes that means limiting contact/conflict between parents and implementing parallel parenting while having to share custody.

momtara, I can sense your anxiety. Being anxious is part of this, really normal actually, but it's also important that we make knowledge based decisions, not emotion based ones. Getting out of a marriage and subsequently divorcing someone who is personality disordered can really take it's toll on a person - it can be extremely difficult and defeating to deal with. Would you consider getting a therapist to possibly help you in this?

Also, I really like the idea that you get a temporary hearing as soon as possible to determine some sort of schedule that is enforceable and doesn't leave a whole lot of room for discussion.

It's important for the kids to have schedules during this time, they need to start routines in knowing when they are going to be with the other parent. This is a very stressful time for them and it really helps them when you have a calendar that shows them where they are going to be and when.

My advice is to figure out what you think is best (every other weekend with Dad?) and start implementing it and file for that to be the parenting time agreement.

The best way to show the courts that you are not alienating your child from the other parent is to show them that you are willing to foster the child's relationship with the other parent.

The court takes into account, when awarding custody, the ability of a parent to foster the relationship with the other parent. It's important.

-DreamGirl  

[momtara]

Well said, Dreamgirl.  Excellent advice.  Thank you.

I get all worried based on my husband's threats, and for no good reason.  He threatened to come take our kids out of day care today, but never did.  And my L said that's illegal anyhow.

Thanks to everyone for responding - it's really good stress relief to read this board.

Also, regarding original emails, he'd still have to print them out, so he could still just print out made up emails.  I think the only way to see them in their original state is to look at them in his account, in his out box.  Hopefully it won't come to all of that anyway.

[livednlearned]

Well said, Dreamgirl.  Excellent advice.  Thank you.

I get all worried based on my husband's threats, and for no good reason.  He threatened to come take our kids out of day care today, but never did.  And my L said that's illegal anyhow.

Thanks to everyone for responding - it's really good stress relief to read this board.

Also, regarding original emails, he'd still have to print them out, so he could still just print out made up emails.  I think the only way to see them in their original state is to look at them in his account, in his out box.  Hopefully it won't come to all of that anyway.

The emails are written to you, aren't they? So wouldn't you have copies with different time stamps?

It still stands that if he is tampering with the emails to make them tell a story, and that story isn't true -- if he gets caught in court doing that, then he can say good-bye to his credibility with everything else. If you subpoena the originals, and he doctors that evidence, he's going to hand you a prize. But my guess is that he is doing this mostly to intimidate you.

[Forward2free]

It sounds to me like he is writing Momtara an email, but adding previous FWD emails in the text below. It looks like there is an email chain of correspondence, but Momtara has only received it for the first time? My ex used to doctor my emails in the forwarded responses to me, but stopped when I showed him that my original was different.

Momtara - I think that's what you mean?

[momtara]

He is sending me an email and including what he SAYS is an original of one he sent me earlier, but he just made it up.  And yes, he is adding fake time stamps etc.

The plot thickens.  My lawyer said that his lawyer wants to file an order to show cause because I denied him visitation!  It's all a setup.  But my lawyer says it'll be hard for me to prove my side and will look really bad for me.  So we have to sign some kind of agreement with him.

Just freaking ridiculous.  Anyone been in this situation?

My husband never takes the kids.  What happened last time is just a setup, and it looks like he can win even though I asked him a million times if he was taking the kids and never heard back.

[livednlearned]

He is sending me an email and including what he SAYS is an original of one he sent me earlier, but he just made it up.  And yes, he is adding fake time stamps etc.

The plot thickens.  My lawyer said that his lawyer wants to file an order to show cause because I denied him visitation!  It's all a setup.  But my lawyer says it'll be hard for me to prove my side and will look really bad for me.  So we have to sign some kind of agreement with him.

Just freaking ridiculous.  Anyone been in this situation?

My husband never takes the kids.  What happened last time is just a setup, and it looks like he can win even though I asked him a million times if he was taking the kids and never heard back.

Where is your L coming from? Does that mean that you asked verbally for H to take the kids and he never responded? So there is no paper trail?

What I'm wondering is whether your L has a clue how email works.

This makes no sense! Your L needs to defend you and say that H is making false allegations. And what is he saying you should agree to?

[sad but wiser]

Yes, a schedule.  Also, a neutral 3rd party to see to the pick-up/drop-off.  For instance, he picks child up from school, sitter, etc on certain days.  Or if you have a friend who will testify to his being there (or not) to pick the child up... .   Cell phone picture with date/time stamp?  Anything to show that you stuck to the schedule.

[momtara]

I asked him several times if he was going to take the kids last weekend.  didn't hear a THING back from him.  Then he claimed he came by and I wasn't around.  Then I said to him, "Well, why didn't you let me know you were coming?"  That's when he sent the fake emails that he claimed he had sent me before coming.

I feel like he is doing the same thing during our divorce that he did during our marriage - manipulating and controlling me.  He can just make this same claim every time, that I am "withholding the kids" even if I am waiting for him to come pick them up.  I can't prove it.  He can keep coming and then saying I didn't let him see the kids.

[ForeverDad]

Have you watched the 1944 movie Gaslight?  Persuasive, pressuring disinformation and invalidation.

Have you been (quietly) recording the times you've asked or offered?  Courts often ignore the "he said, she said" but if he claims he's being blocked then the court will likely step in and 'protect' his parental interests.

It sounds like he is trying to portray himself as a hapless victim blocked from his children.  Short circuit that strategy if possible.

[broken3]

Request all communication be done by text only.

Then there are no excuses.

[sad but wiser]

Momtara, it may be a shared male BPD trait to work on the wife's insecurity.  Mine likes to do that.  It took several years of marriage before I realized he was just playing mind games with me.  Make me feel insecure and I am more likely to give him his way.  Does your court system have family mediation services?  They could be very helpful in arranging a firm visiting schedule and such details as where the children are to be picked up and when.  Then, all you have to do is stick to the schedule like glue.  Make sure that there is a set time RANGE for pick up.  For instance, if he is more than 15 minutes late, the visit is cancelled.  This will keep you from being stuck for hours, waiting to see if he will show up.  If your kids are 13 years old or older, they can probably arrange when they wish to see him or if they wish to see him.  This little fact has been empowering for my daughter.

[livednlearned]

I asked him several times if he was going to take the kids last weekend.  didn't hear a THING back from him.  Then he claimed he came by and I wasn't around.  Then I said to him, "Well, why didn't you let me know you were coming?"  That's when he sent the fake emails that he claimed he had sent me before coming.

I feel like he is doing the same thing during our divorce that he did during our marriage - manipulating and controlling me.  He can just make this same claim every time, that I am "withholding the kids" even if I am waiting for him to come pick them up.  I can't prove it.  He can keep coming and then saying I didn't let him see the kids.

If he is going to continue faking these emails, you may also want to insist on using Our Family Wizard. Go into any mediation or conference making it very clear that his allegations are false and his emails have been doctored. Then make sure all communication takes place within OFW, with a time stamp, something that can be verified by both parties.

When you have these kinds of nutty situations, your task is to calmly but assertively point out that the allegation is false, and then come up with a solution. You need to consistently establish yourself as the problem solver, while he is the problem maker (and victim).

[DreamGirl]

When you have these kinds of nutty situations, your task is to calmly but assertively point out that the allegation is false, and then come up with a solution. You need to consistently establish yourself as the problem solver, while he is the problem maker (and victim).

Really good advice.