Healthy arguing

[DesertChild]

I realized that though I've seen it, my idea of healthy arguing is kind of skewed... .  (Still working on redefining boundaries back to a healthy level). Especially after years of seeing destructive arguing.

So, uhh... .  are there steps to arguing in a relationship that are healthy? I kinda feel clueless here... .  

[arabella]

I've seen recommendations for the book, 'High Conflict Couple', on here many times. Have you taken a look at that resource?

Perhaps you could explain what happens when you argue that you find to be unhealthy and we can give you some feedback on how to change the dynamic?

[P.F.Change]

(cross-posted)

What a great topic. I think it will be a good discussion.  

My parents fought a lot. Yelling, cursing, name-calling, slamming... .  all unhealthy. They were each "in it to win it," without any care or concern for the other. If there was "arguing" it was to prove how RIGHT one was and how utterly stupid the other must be.

My DH and I disagree. We discuss. But I do not think in the 15 years we have known each other that we have ever "argued" in the way my parents did. We care about each other and are willing to hear each other's points of view, validate each other's feelings, and arrive at a solution together. We are on the same team. I once saw an interview of an old couple who had been married something like 60 years. They were asked for the secret. The husband said, "We always hold hands when we fight." My DH and I don't always literally do that (thouh we have a time or two), but that is the spirit of our relationship. We are each committed to be partners and friends, even when we are completely at odds about an issue. Even when we are hurt or angry. We will not be enemies.

So I guess for me some important things to bring to any discussion about a disagreement would be:

1)respect

2)validation

3)compassion

4)honesty

5)team spirit

And any time I feel unable to respond with those, it is time to take a break and continue later.

I think we have some really great workshops here that are helpful with this stuff... .  the ones on validation (SET, etc.) and taking a time-out come immediately to mind.

I love that you are asking questions like this.   It is important to find ways to learn the skills we weren't taught.

Wishing you peace,

PF

[AnotherPhoenix]

 ,

I found a link to "Rules for Fair Fighting" on the Think about It Portion at the top of these web pages: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

They are very good.

AnotherPheonix   

[DesertChild]

I've seen recommendations for the book, 'High Conflict Couple', on here many times. Have you taken a look at that resource?

Perhaps you could explain what happens when you argue that you find to be unhealthy and we can give you some feedback on how to change the dynamic?

Thank you.

From what I know, when I was little I used to hear my (then) parents screaming at each other. I have a memory of the door open and I was peaking through while my brother was playing. Explosive arguing.

However, my adoptive parents argued differently. (and they think it's normal)

They would argue, then my mom would play to win. If she didn't get her way she'd play passive aggressive. Then she'd nag for weeks. My Dad, through his codependency would refuse to give into her nagging and would sometimes get visibly upset. But he knew if he caved, she'd try to control him on something else.

Unlike my the other parents, it was a cold war. Ignore it and it will get better, address it and it will get worse. It was constant. And I often watched them not listen to each other. Which led to them bickering. I straight once told them (Because it was driving me nuts) "Just acknowledge what the other person said first!" Of course I got a lecture out of it. (But ya know, I was still learning boundaries)

(cross-posted)

What a great topic. I think it will be a good discussion.  

My parents fought a lot. Yelling, cursing, name-calling, slamming... .  all unhealthy. They were each "in it to win it," without any care or concern for the other. If there was "arguing" it was to prove how RIGHT one was and how utterly stupid the other must be.

My DH and I disagree. We discuss. But I do not think in the 15 years we have known each other that we have ever "argued" in the way my parents did. We care about each other and are willing to hear each other's points of view, validate each other's feelings, and arrive at a solution together. We are on the same team. I once saw an interview of an old couple who had been married something like 60 years. They were asked for the secret. The husband said, "We always hold hands when we fight." My DH and I don't always literally do that (thouh we have a time or two), but that is the spirit of our relationship. We are each committed to be partners and friends, even when we are completely at odds about an issue. Even when we are hurt or angry. We will not be enemies.

So I guess for me some important things to bring to any discussion about a disagreement would be:

1)respect

2)validation

3)compassion

4)honesty

5)team spirit

And any time I feel unable to respond with those, it is time to take a break and continue later.

I think we have some really great workshops here that are helpful with this stuff... .  the ones on validation (SET, etc.) and taking a time-out come immediately to mind.

I love that you are asking questions like this.   It is important to find ways to learn the skills we weren't taught.

Wishing you peace,

PF

Thank you.

My mom once was watching my Aunt (My mom's sister(=) and my Dad argue. They actually came to a compromise and she was visibly distressed by this. I was watching with my brother on the stairs through the slats of the banister. It was the first time I'd seen a conflict resolve in a constructive way and there wasn't a bomb left behind. It resonated. (I think I also said in a childish voice that I hated to watch them fighting... .  why did they have to fight?)

But I don't have much faith I could get out of that cycle if I were to be in a relationship. I've seen people argue outside of my family, but inside of my family it's always like a ticking time bomb. And outside of my family, I don't even recognize the disagreement... .  (which means my idea of when to set boundaries is off?)

I realized today there were times that people looked visibly concerned for me and ASKED/or tried to protect me and I was unfazed because I didn't think it was that bad and still let it slide (which should have been a signal... .  but I was slow on the uptake). I think part of it is growing up in an environment where conflict was the norm. So I'd like to recognize that break earlier AND learn to argue healthy as well. Because I can't recognize the lower levels of it, I think that's part of my issue too... .  I wait too long to set a boundary because I don't recognize the boundary was broken. But I should not let it slide for so long... .  so I need to redefine personal mental space in my mind so my boundaries do protect me. I'd like to learn that, which isn't wallowing... .  

,

I found a link to "Rules for Fair Fighting" on the Think about It Portion at the top of these web pages: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

They are very good.

AnotherPheonix   

Thank you. I'll check it out.

[P.F.Change]

Do you think you have trouble identifying or being aware of what you are feeling? Because that is really common for those of us with BPD parents--we survived by repressing and denying. I know I have had to do tons of work in this area and still have a ways to go.

You mention wanting to know sooner when a boundary is crossed. Anytime I feel angry or scared, feel hot in the face or have a rapid heartbeat, that is a good indicator for me to look at what is bothering me. Do you know what some of your boundaries are? What kind of situation might make you feel cross? What situations concern your friends before you think about whether you need to be concerned?

Is there anything else you want to work on or talk through here?

PF

[DesertChild]

Do you think you have trouble identifying or being aware of what you are feeling? Because that is really common for those of us with BPD parents--we survived by repressing and denying. I know I have had to do tons of work in this area and still have a ways to go.

You mention wanting to know sooner when a boundary is crossed. Anytime I feel angry or scared, feel hot in the face or have a rapid heartbeat, that is a good indicator for me to look at what is bothering me. Do you know what some of your boundaries are? What kind of situation might make you feel cross? What situations concern your friends before you think about whether you need to be concerned?

Is there anything else you want to work on or talk through here?

PF

It's more like desensitized to the level.

Let's put it this way... .  

You know how drug dependency works? If a person starts a drug, and gets addicted, to reach the same high, they need to take a larger dosage. Then a larger dosage, so that eventually the smaller dosage doesn't phaze them at all.

It's more like I'm experiencing the smaller dosages, people around me are getting visibly upset because they know a boundary has been crossed, but I didn't even realize it, because I'm probably thinking, "This is nothing." Which is horrible. My annoyed is probably someone else's angry. (I'm not addicted to arguing, BTW, but you get what I mean?)

So if I want to protect myself I need to be aware that I have the smaller dosage being thrown at me in the first place, which will help me protect my boundaries and also prevent my suddenly realizing it's gone way too far.

I know I shouldn't gage myself against other people, but I'd like to protect my boundaries earlier and better, especially in stressful situations and not default to codependency thinking. (Which is they must be having a bad day and justifying their actions) which should still not be an excuse. You can respect a person's feelings and still protect your boundaries. (I know that cognitively, but in practice it's not so easy.)

In another words, I'm getting angry too late in the game. I should have gotten angry earlier... .  and firmly set the boundary. But I'm so desensitized to arguing and conflict that I can't even seem to spot it and by that time the other person is used to it. I'm trying to narrow it down more, but it's still difficult to know where. My gage is obviously broken.

[arabella]

So, basically, you think that your tolerance for other people's poor behaviour is too high? If that's the case, it may be that your boundaries are simply not clear enough in your own mind. In order to effectively defend a boundary you need to know exactly what it looks like. It could well be that it isn't your tolerance level that needs adjusting (I'm not sure how you could even do that) but rather that you need to be more clear, within yourself, as to what your boundaries really are in order to be able to recognize when they are being crossed. i.e. What does the breaking of the boundary actually look like? Where is the line in the sand for you? What do warning signs/behaviours look like? And, bear in mind, that your boundaries do not have to look anything like someone else's boundaries - perhaps yours are set at a different point on the scale.

Could you give an example of a boundary you have that has caused this sort of trouble for you in the past? At what point did you think you should have recognized a breaking point but didn't, and at what point did you finally see the problem?

[P.F.Change]

Could you give an example of a boundary you have that has caused this sort of trouble for you in the past? At what point did you think you should have recognized a breaking point but didn't, and at what point did you finally see the problem?

Good questions. Any specific examples?

PF

[waverider]

I can have healthy arguments/debates now

I learned the tools of leaving extreme dysregulation, and disengaging once it starts to become a go nowhere discussion. Also avoid conflict about irrelevant issues and needing to be right.

As a result of these, conflict became less and my partner stopped being constantly at paranoid battle stations expecting incoming conflict at any time. This gives a time frame from triggering to escalation, prior to this every trigger went straight to escalation. This time frame is the safe "arguing zone'.

Add to this my new confidence in being able to detect and defuse things when they are going sour, and of course the leaving safety switch, means I am less afraid of conflict.

I just make sure if there is to be a conflict, it needs to something important, timing has to be right and of my choosing, when she is in a good mood and I have an out path if necc. Eg not in the car reacting to some snappy thing she has just said (bad mood + no escape= disaster). Compared to early in the day when she is in a calmer mood and I can go disappear and find something else to do if necessary. Keep what you want to say short and to the point and dont bandwagon any other issues onto the back of it (that is harder than it sounds). Say it once, allow them the right to respond without you then hammering on it again, you have said your piece, they heard it, to just then try and reinforce it just directly invalidates what they just said>>heading towards escalation

[Grey Kitty]

Here is one healthy way to improve an argument that I've found with my wife. (Actually I think she found it)

When you find your partner getting worked up and angry... . ask them what they are afraid of.

Or when you find yourself getting worked up... . ask yourself the same question.

Often these (unspoken) fears drive us into someplace we don't want to go. And if we look for the root fears and talk about them, we've often found that our disagreement isn't that intractable. Usually I'm wanting X because I'm afraid of A, while my wife is wanting Y because she is afraid of B. When we put A and B onto the table, we can figure out that Z will work for both of us... . after we'd gotten worked up arguing about X vs Y