How to approach uBPDw about parenting issue

[zaqsert]

Hi All,

I would like to ask for some help with how to approach my uBPDw with two things that she does to our D2 pretty consistently.

1. Unrealistic expectations

Sometimes they are age-inappropriate expectations.  Other times they are just the way that my uBPDw wants things done.  The most recent example was when the two of them were doing a puzzle together.  uBPDw says "Put these two pieces together, then put them in the puzzle."  D2 just takes on piece and tries to put it directly into the puzzle.  This exchange repeats another two times.  Then uBPDw says "If you won't listen to me then I don't want to do this with you any more."  D2 tries again.  uBPDw says "That's it", gets up, and goes somewhere else.  D2 then asks me "What happened?"

Later, alone with D2, I brought up the puzzle incident.  She looked sad, looked away, and said "Mommy got mad at me."  I tried to explain that her mommy getting mad was not her fault.

2. Inappropriate anger and yelling

D2 drank some water, then decided to dribble a mouthful of water down her shirt and onto the floor.  uBPDw yelled at her to stop, then continued angrily asking her why she did it, that if she does it again she will only be able to eat or drink at the table, that she needs to show us she is responsible, and that we just can't trust her.  I gave uBPDw an eyebrows-raised look, and she stopped.  A minute or so later she said she needed some time alone and went to another room.  I was afraid she would then blow up at me for the look, but so far so good.


In the past week or two I feel that I am fortunate that a 4-month phase of being painted black over everything seems to have ended.  But although I am no longer feeling the daily attacks and seem to be ignoring periodic baits, I am not sure how to address these issues without sparking another BPD-style high-conflict mess at home.

I want to protect my D2 as much as I possibly can.  And if there's any chance of getting uBPDw to tone down what to me feels like emotional abuse of our D2, I really want that too.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

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[Mara2]

I wish I had recognized things as abuse when we were all younger.  A lot of pain has passed through this family because I was unaware of what was going on.  So good for you!

The best thing I have been able to do for my kids is to reassure them that someone else's anger is not their fault.  At 2, this is most difficult.  Hug her, love her and tell her she is your princess.  Your strong support will be her port in the storm.  My dad was for me and it made all the difference. 

[yeeter]

Number one.  Make sure your daughter knows that she is loved.  I tell each of mine every single day (or 112 times a day as I was once told), " I love you and I will always love you"

Over the years, thus has made an impact and I bet they remember it the rest of their lives.

How to intervene is tricky.  Making sure your daughter knows she did nothing wrong is a great piece.  Distraction.  Redirection.  And sometimes direct intervention/challenging are needed (direct challenge is a last resort, because it undermines the parenting authority and she might even make it worse just to prove a point)

What works one time might not work the next.  For me, it's a constant trying, learning, adjusting, etc.  No one thing but a number of different things all coming at it from different angles.

But I do firmly believe, that by being there for your daughter it will make a huge difference in her life.   

[Randi Kreger]

I suggest communicating about serious, difficult issues in m. therapy. Marital therapy doesn't have to be about fixing you two. It can be about learning better communication skills. I also recommend it for your daughter.

[zaqsert]

Thanks, all, for your responses!

Mara2 -

Thanks, although I have to say it was probably more luck than anything else to have come across BPD and start understanding it recently.  It finally helped me to start putting things into context, which has made it much easier to start acting on.

yeeter -

I'll definitely continue to tell her "I love you" as many times a day as I possibly can.  And ever since I saw your reply, I started adding on the "... . and I will always love you".  Now that I have intervened, discreetly, it helped me realize that I can continue to try to intervene if I really need to when it happens again.  I see what you mean about trying, learning, adjusting, etc.

Randi -

I will find a way to bring it up in one our our next marital therapy sessions.  Now that our relationship has swung back to a better place in the past few weeks, I'm hoping we can work on learning better communication skills.

When you say you also recommend it for my daughter, do you mean working on issues of our daughter in our marital therapy or therapy for my daughter?  She is 2.

While I'm at it, I just wanted to send you too a huge thank you!  Earlier this year when I stumbled on learning about BPD, I found lots of great information here on bpdfamily.com (I continue to appreciate what the community does here every day!), and then I read SWOE.  It was incredibly helpful.  Then I continued on through the workbook.  And finally, since my wife had been threatening so much, I read Splitting too, just in case, although I am still hoping not to need to use any of it.

[zaqsert]

My T recently recommended a series of books by the Gesell Institute of Child Development.  She said that even though she had studied child development professionally, when she had her own child it helped her tremendously.  I found them by the author Louise Bates Ames.  I started reading one, and it looks very good.

My wife was the one who recommended that we learn more about what to expect at this stage of our daughter's life.  Now I hope that she follows through and reads it, either with me or on her own.

[Blazing Star]

My wife was the one who recommended that we learn more about what to expect at this stage of our daughter's life.  Now I hope that she follows through and reads it, either with me or on her own.

This is great! You could approach/frame it as a 'learning together' thing. This is what I do, I will read some good advice in a parenting book that I think my partner would really benefit from hearing and I will tell him but apply it to myself, like tell a story (doesn't have to be true) about a time I did the opposite and how I can see doing it this new way might help, and I say it in a tone that is "hey I have just had a  , let me share it with you, how cool is this, I could do things differently"... .  

So you could find an example about age appropriateness and tell a story of when you got annoyed with D2 when she couldn't tidy up/wash her hands properly/etc and how frustrating that was, but it makes you feel much less frustrated when you realise she is actually too young to do those things herself.

"hhhmmm, and I guess it probably didn't feel too good for D2 when I gave her things that she couldn't do... .   Hey! you know what, I might try to give her really really simple tasks that she can easily manage, bc then she will feel good about herself, I really don't want her to have self-esteem issues like X (my sister, our friend's child, myself etc)".

Re the inapppriate anger and yelling, we have had this too.

I think it is never too young to talk about feelings.

"wow, mummy seems a bit angry, it's good she went to calm down" (My partner now gives himself a time out to self soothe, which is huge and much better than staying and raging, the fact that she shows this restraint is great).

You can also model good coping, deep breaths when mom rages. Nonverbal comfort if she storms off "Hey feel like a hug?" ( - to D2). Detachment etc.

Finally I have talked about these before, a great resource for talking about feelings is "The Bear Feeling Cards". Picture cards that you can spread out and use to talk and give names and make sense of feelings. We have these and a few other things in our "Calm Down Basket" - intended for our D4, but has some grown up calm down tools in it too - bell for mindfulness, grownup mandala colouring book etc.

Hope that helps.

Love Blazing Star

[yeeter]

The other text that I found very helpful as a dual use, was "Parent Effectiveness Training", or PET.

I dont remember the author.  But the early parts of the book focus on each individual (child or parent) OWNING their own stuff.  That is, its not the parents responsibility to own a childs emotions - the child needs to learn to work through them as a natural part of growing up, and the parent can support them on this.

This then cascaded directly into the interactions with my wife.  Same lessons apply.  Getting her to practice this with the kids has helped in the moment for her owning her own stuff (and just like they shouldnt project their emotions on mom, mom shouldnt project her emotions on the kids)

Any little bit of awareness helps... .  

[zaqsert]

Blazing Star - Great suggestions!  Thanks!  I found The Bear Cards on Amazon and will order them soon.

Yeeter - Thanks too for the PET suggestion!  Found that online too.

Well, I'm still three days away from our next marital therapy session and things blew up at home.  I'm hoping it will blow over by morning, but only time will tell.

While I was making breakfast I overheard my uBPDw get angry at our D2 for squeezing out too much glitter glue on a piece of paper.  By the time I got to them, my wife said "I give up" and "I'm not spending another dime on her if she's going to waste things like that".  By the time I got there, I chose to ignore the comments.

Later, my wife gave D2 a bath.  As I was outside the bathroom getting things ready to take D2 out of the bath, I hear my wife saying:

  - Don't drink the bathwater.  I said don't drink the bathwater!  You're going to get sick!

  (a very short while later... .   )

  - Do you want to get sick?  Fine, if you want to get sick, go ahead and drink the bathwater.  I give up!  Go ahead, drink the bathwater.

Having had my wife complain, even rage, that I undermine her parenting (almost all cases totally unfounded, but that's beside the point), I didn't intervene at first.  Then, after hearing the last comments, I stepped in and asked my wife if she wanted anything.  She said "Just take her out."  As soon as I walked in, my D2 was slightly crying and started reaching out to me, and my wife was leaning back with her "I'm emotionally unavailable to you" look.

As I took D2 out and was drying her off, it felt to me as if my wife started bullying D2, repeatedly asking ":)o you want to tell daddy what you did?"  And when D2 said no, following up with telling me (again) what had happened.  In a calm voice I just said "Please don't drink the bathwater, it can be bad for you" once or maybe twice.  Meanwhile, trying to dry off D2 as fast as possible so that I could get us out of there.

But by the end of it, my wife got angry at me, saying she felt totally unsupported.  I support the "no drinking bathwater" lesson.  But I cannot support displays of anger, severe disappointment, emotional withdrawal or abandonment, extremes (e.g., "always", "never again", bullying, or shaming.

Later, we were trying to get D2 to stay in her bed and sleep.  My wife said "When you get up we'll do some fun things.  (pause)  But you have to stay in bed."  Then my D2 responded "No".  So my wife follows up with "Oh, you don't want to do fun things?"  I should have just said something like "I think she was just saying 'no' to staying in bed."  But annoyance got the best of me and I said "You know her 'no' was not about the fun stuff, right?  My wife got up, said "I've had it with you.  You're such an expert, you deal with her!"  And she stormed off.

I am looking forward to the couples session in a few days and will have to keep myself as grounded as possible in the meantime.  And I felt the need to vent.  If you read all the way to here, thanks!

[yeeter]

I'm not an expert - all I can offer is that it's going to be a regular occurance and what works one time won't necessarily work the next time.  So read the moment.

Sure you might undermine her parenting a little.  Oh well, don't JADE about it though, and do it anyway (just my opinion)

Any time I can get some deflection in the moment, by jumping in as you did in a calm way is a great approach.  If your wife can see you getting results with a different approach she is more likely to be ok with it.

Then as the kids get older they will test with you more on what's reasonable.  My son came out to my workshop yesterday and told me mom was in a really bad mood so he was hanging out with me a while.  I went in and encouraged the other two to come out as well, which they did.  That way everyone got a break.

And after something like the water drinking / bullying, I am sure to tell the child that I love them and give them a hug.  Just because they won't get the affection from mom at the moment, so I want them to know they are loved and accepted, even if mom is upset at them.  Often times the hug I get in return is a big one... .   You can tell they want the emotional support in the moment.

Then certain things I just took over, to help avoid activities that are likely to trigger.  More work, but it helps.

[yeeter]

JADE:

Justify

Argue

Defend

Explain

Remembering not to get sucked into this helps reduce the conflict tremendously, and also trains myself to feel ok with my own judgment (even though I make lots of mistakes and dong know everything - avoiding getting sucked into the defensive dynamic has helped).  

You will find a lot in the lessons about JADE.  :)efinitely one to read up on.  (SET makes a good compliment to JADE).  The tools do work/help.    

[zaqsert]

Thanks, yeeter .  I really appreciate your support!     

[Wanda]

i raised my children with my husband who i beleive has BPD, and he isn't even the father not easy, but i always told my kids that their step dad has a problem that isn't theirs, they aren't responcible for the yelling or his actions. that he has a condition due to his drinking days.

I also would reinforce what i said over and over, and always give them hugs you are doing great!

i taught them the tools and skills they used this in their lifes as well.

they to this day but one doesn't know about BPD, my daughter does due to she found one of my books and asked.  SHe is the closet to my husband and he is close to her she was only 2 when he came into her life. she is now 21 and we have a grandaughter we have alot of the time.

[Blazing Star]

But by the end of it, my wife got angry at me, saying she felt totally unsupported.  I support the "no drinking bathwater" lesson.  But I cannot support displays of anger, severe disappointment, emotional withdrawal or abandonment, extremes (e.g., "always", "never again", bullying, or shaming.

This is so familiar to me. It is Challenging, not wanting to fuel the undermining stance, but also wanting to protect your child.

I try to remind myself that he doesn't know any better, that this is coming from a place of His stuff, not my daughters, and like Yeeter says, I read the moment. Some moments I will step right in and stop the bullying/shaming or whatever it is. Other moments I will stand back, give my daughter reassurance, and choose to address it later, or some other way with my partner.

Another thing that helped us, was in a parenting book I read recently (have been reading a few - the one escapes me!). But it had an exercise in it where the parent is asked to go back and think about how your parents responded to you. Eg my partner feels triggered when she cries in frustration, I suggested we go back and look at how we were treated when we cried in frustration, how we felt etc. I guess it is about bringing awareness to our own feelings - sounds like the PET book might help here, I am going to look into that one too.

It is such a balance between protecting your children, and also maintaining what there is of your own relationship! For me it works best if I treat it gently. My partner knows that aggression directed at the children is a dealbreaker for me, and the other stuff, for now, I am going the "Let's educate ourselves" path. There is history of mental illness in my family, and my partner knows he hasn't been well, so I talk passionately about wanting to do all we can to give our children the tools so they can handle whatever life throws at him. So I try to not make it all about him and the way he is parenting, I share the load if I can.

Keep us posted!

Love Blazing Star

[zaqsert]

Thanks, all.  Very helpful.

Blazing Star, this seems really interesting and relevant to my situation:

Another thing that helped us, was in a parenting book I read recently (have been reading a few - the one escapes me!). But it had an exercise in it where the parent is asked to go back and think about how your parents responded to you.

My wife had a uBPD mom and I had a uNPD dad.  We've talked in the past about how we want raise our D2 in a much better environment than we grew up in, so this may make it easier to try this approach.

Yeeter, I thought of you today and what you wrote:

And after something like the water drinking / bullying, I am sure to tell the child that I love them and give them a hug.  Just because they won't get the affection from mom at the moment, so I want them to know they are loved and accepted, even if mom is upset at them.  Often times the hug I get in return is a big one... .   You can tell they want the emotional support in the moment.

My uBPDw got angry and gave our D2 a little lecture over something that I felt was so minor that I had not even thought of it as an issue.  A few minutes later I asked my wife something simple and innocuous, and she responded in a very annoyed tone.

Right after that, my D2 started asking "Wha' happened?"  I was on my way to another room, my D2 came with me, and she asked again.  I squatted down to her height and asked her:

   Me:  What happened with what?

   D2:  What happened with mommy?

   Me:  She seems to be in a grumpy mood.  I'm not really sure why.  But it's not your fault.

   Me:  (I put my arms out and said) Come here... .  

My D2 came right in for a hug.  I gave her a hug.  And she gave me a huge hug back.

I think this was the first time my daughter approached me in a situation like this.  I may feel stressed right now, even with some physical signs of being on edge because I feel that my wife has been particularly easy to trigger in the past few days.  But this interaction with my D2 made my day!  I hope she continues to feel comfortable talking with me and letting me know what she's feeling.

I also hope I am approaching what I say to D2 about my wife's behavior in the right way.  I want to help my daughter, but also want to be careful not to put down her mom behind her mom's back, and certainly don't want to cause any alienation.

[zaqsert]

We had our marital therapy session.  The first part ended up including my wife talking about how I need to learn not to let our problems keep me from being able to focus on other things, my work in particular.  It feels like she wants me to learn to split like she seems to, but I can't.

Then by the time we got to the topic of child discipline, it was really close to the end of the session.  She brought up how I undermine what she does with our daughter (at least according to her).  With only a few minutes left, I validated and didn't get into any more of it.  I'll save the rest for next week.

One day later, my wife saw me disciplining our D2 for something that she did.  After a minute she left.  A few minutes later I went to check in with her.  It turns out she was really angry at me for supposedly letting our D2 get away with anything.  How do I interpret that?  I gave D2 warnings and reasonable consequences, followed through with hem, and gave her a few chances to be successful.  But I did not get angry, walk out with no additional chances, emotionally withdraw, tell her I'm giving up on her... .  

So I've been painted black again.

[Blazing Star]

One day later, my wife saw me disciplining our D2 for something that she did.  After a minute she left.  A few minutes later I went to check in with her.  It turns out she was really angry at me for supposedly letting our D2 get away with anything.  How do I interpret that?  I gave D2 warnings and reasonable consequences, followed through with hem, and gave her a few chances to be successful.  But I did not get angry, walk out with no additional chances, emotionally withdraw, tell her I'm giving up on her... .  

I wonder if she has some kind of jealousy stuff going on here? Jealous of the attention D2 gets from you, that she never got from her parents? Or just finding it hard to share you?

My partner is similar, he gets angry and then just throws out "Well whatever, You deal with it then, but you will end up with a child who walks all over you etc"

I wonder what would happen if you just lightly validated in these situations, and gave your wife a bit of extra attention? ("Oh really? Is that how it felt to you, oh honey I am sorry you feel that way, it is hard this parenting game isn't it! Hey I was thinking how about taking some time off from the parenting trip, lets rent a movie tonight, and I will make us my famous icecream sundaes". To just kind of change the energy a bit. And then used the calm times to talk about parenting ideas (as if the two are in no way related) - does that make sense? I know it could backfire, and may depend on her, for me an approach like this sometimes works.

Blazing Star, this seems really interesting and relevant to my situation:

Another thing that helped us, was in a parenting book I read recently (have been reading a few - the one escapes me!). But it had an exercise in it where the parent is asked to go back and think about how your parents responded to you.

My wife had a uBPD mom and I had a uNPD dad.  We've talked in the past about how we want raise our D2 in a much better environment than we grew up in, so this may make it easier to try this approach.

Yes this sounds like a great launch pad from which to begin talking about things - in that calm, nothing to do with what happened earlier space. I think the book may have been Heart to Heart Parenting, but I am not sure.

Great that your D2 came to you for a hug! Amazing that she is showing such perception, or rather able to express her perception - which i think is half the battle. Just awesome that the two of you are establishing a dialogue, and that she can talk to you about her feelings. I think that by keeping it general ("people get grumpy sometimes" and focusing D2 (not your fault, hug etc) you won't alienate. I think you dealt with it really well, you were honest (especially saying "I don't know why" and I loved that you said "seems grumpy", which to me shows that we all see things in different ways, it was fluid rather than fixed.

Sounds like you are doing great!

Hope you get to talk more in the next session!

Love Blazing Star

[yeeter]

One day later, my wife saw me disciplining our D2 for something that she did.  After a minute she left.  A few minutes later I went to check in with her.  It turns out she was really angry at me for supposedly letting our D2 get away with anything.  How do I interpret that?  I gave D2 warnings and reasonable consequences, followed through with hem, and gave her a few chances to be successful.  But I did not get angry, walk out with no additional chances, emotionally withdraw, tell her I'm giving up on her... .  

My advice:  Be strong in your own behavior.  Be clear, consistent.  Chart the course of how to behave and react (or not react) and set the standard.

Your wife is going to flail all over the place.  One day you will be black, another day white.  Validate, then put on your teflon jacket and let it all roll off your back.

If you can set clear, consistent direction - in time - she will likely adapt and the fluctuations you get from her will be less.

Your doing great with your daughter.  Keep it up.

[zaqsert]

I wonder if she has some kind of jealousy stuff going on here? Jealous of the attention D2 gets from you, that she never got from her parents? Or just finding it hard to share you?

My partner is similar, he gets angry and then just throws out "Well whatever, You deal with it then, but you will end up with a child who walks all over you etc"

That may very well be the case.  For over a year I've noticed that my wife will barely talk to me all day, but then suddenly she tries to draw me into conversations either when I am doing something with D2 or when we are putting D2 to bed (reading books, singing songs, hanging out with her for a few minutes before the final goodnight).  It probably doesn't help that I try to respect my time with D2, as I would with my wife if (or when) she spends time with me.  I'll engage some, so as not to blow her off, and often ask if we can pick it up again later, such as after D2 goes to bed.

Although, at the same time, my wife also often tries to get out of participating in D2's bedtime routine, often by suddenly finding something else that she just has to do instead, which is usually something that she had all day to do or could wait until after D2 is in bed.

I wonder what would happen if you just lightly validated in these situations, and gave your wife a bit of extra attention? ("Oh really? Is that how it felt to you, oh honey I am sorry you feel that way, it is hard this parenting game isn't it! Hey I was thinking how about taking some time off from the parenting trip, lets rent a movie tonight, and I will make us my famous icecream sundaes". To just kind of change the energy a bit. And then used the calm times to talk about parenting ideas (as if the two are in no way related) - does that make sense? I know it could backfire, and may depend on her, for me an approach like this sometimes works.

It does make sense.  I'll have to think about how to approach the validation with her.  As soon as something triggers her into a mood, it tends to be very hard to change that mood for a while.  It seems like it would be well worth my trying it though.  Worst case, I can't end up any worse off than I would be otherwise.

My advice:  Be strong in your own behavior.  Be clear, consistent.  Chart the course of how to behave and react (or not react) and set the standard.

Your wife is going to flail all over the place.  One day you will be black, another day white.  Validate, then put on your teflon jacket and let it all roll off your back.

If you can set clear, consistent direction - in time - she will likely adapt and the fluctuations you get from her will be less.

Good advice.

Thanks again!

[NonnyMouse]

This is a very upsetting situation. I empathize totally. My uBPDw behaves this way with our D2 (maybe it will get better after the Terrible Twos?). My w was treated very badly by her own mother, and I worry that our D will end up like her mother.

Also even if you can somehow defuse this situation, what happens when you are not around? Maybe just try to keep children undamaged until they get to school age and then hope that your w's influence will be less?