restraining order or no?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Husband has been harassing me by phone all week. now he threatened to take our kids out of day care tomorrow and put them in a new one. We are going thru a divorce but haven't put a custody agreement in place yet. I had a restraining order against him last year, dropped it in exchange for him to be out of the house.

He also did some other harassing things this weekend. I am this close to getting the restraining order, but part of me is concerned because someday he will have our children alone, and I don't want him to always be paranoid about restraining orders because he could take his anxieties & anger toward me out on the kids.  But... . he is making it impossible to function. Yet, I am holding off... . I should just go get one right now.  I keep waiting for him to call again, come by, etc... . and I can't relax.  These sorts of threats are very unnerving and interfere with everything.

Are there alternatives to a restraining order? Like have my lawyer file an emergency order for custody?

[momtara]

Husband has been harassing me by phone all week. now he threatened to take our kids out of day care tomorrow and put them in a new one. We are going thru a divorce but haven't put a custody agreement in place yet. I had a restraining order against him last year, dropped it in exchange for him to be out of the house.

He also did some other harassing things this weekend. I am this close to getting the restraining order, but part of me is concerned because someday he will have our children alone, and I don't want him to always be paranoid about restraining orders because he could take his anxieties & anger toward me out on the kids.  But... . he is making it impossible to function. Yet, I am holding off... . I should just go get one right now.  I keep waiting for him to call again, come by, etc... . and I can't relax.  These sorts of threats are very unnerving and interfere with everything.

Are there alternatives to a restraining order? Like have my lawyer file an emergency order for custody?

[Forward2free]

What do the DV centers say in your area? Have you spoken with any one from a shelter? Daycare centres cannot stop a parent from taking children without a protection order or court order permitting it.

As mentioned earlier, I put up with the threats and abuse for years longer than I should have out of fear. I didn't believe that a protective order would work and I truly believed it would cause him to hurt me and the kids without care or fear of what would happen to him.

He did rage and go on the rampage, but I protected my kids, moved in with my parents, was already speaking with the authorities and counsellors and tried to get the best footing I could to be ready.

How long do you think you can live like this, on high alert? Who/what else in your life is suffering because of it? Are you doing what's best for your situation, or what's easiest? Do you really think that doing nothing is the right answer?

Sorry for the tough questions. I was on a board to save my marriage and I couldn't understand for the life of me why I wanted to save what I had gotten used to. Turns out, it was so much worse than I thought. LnL's analogy of the frog in boiling water is spot on. I am so thankful that there were other people willing to tell me what they thought, even when I didn't agree with them. Those people saved my life, and the life of my children.

[arabella]

If he is threatening to remove the children from daycare and you are fearing that he will take out his frustration/anxiety/anger on your kids (now or in the future) then you NEED a custody order NOW. You can't predict his reactions but you can protect your kids - and that should be your primary concern (and it sounds like it is). I would call your lawyer and discuss the situation, find out what your legal options are, then take your lawyer's advice and do what needs to be done immediately. What happens if he takes the kids out of daycare and disappears with them? And how traumatized might they be if they are constantly being pulled out of familiar environments? You need legal protection in place so that, at the very least, you'll have something to show the police in the event they need to become involved.

I'm so sorry you're going through this - hang in there! 

[French Prof]

Like others I put up with years of abuse and didn't realise how bad it was until I refused to let him come back home and went for a protection order. It gave me and my children the respite we needed to get stronger, It was the only way to protect my children. Do you want to take any risks if he is harassing you he won't stop and there 's nothing you can do if you don't have a protection order. It was hard but it showed the children that what was going on wasn't normal amd you need peace to deal with an already extremely stressful situation. My heart goes to you but as others are saying you have to protect yourself and the children and there is so much one person can take.

[livednlearned]

Good advice from others -- and like Kormilda suggested, it's a good idea to call your DV center. If it's a good center, they will not only now how things work in your area, they'll know the best judges, good Ls, who can help you, etc.

Every state is different, and so are many counties, but you should be able to get an emergency custody hearing on the calendar no matter where you are. File first, too, if you can, so that you aren't on the defensive.

I worried about the same thing with my ex -- that he would hurt S11 in order to hurt me. But he seems to be idealizing S11, which presents it's own psychological problems, but is better than direct abuse.

It's hard to know what a disordered stbx spouse will do, but there seems to be a high rate of cage rattling that goes on. My ex threatens all kinds of things, and follows through on very little of it. In fact, he seems to threaten to do the very thing he knows will prevent him from having S11 for any reasonable amount of time. After a while, you begin to see the pattern more clearly. They know what hurts you most, and they know where all your buttons and triggers are. Try to stay steady and think as calmly as possible -- remind yourself that he is trying to rattle you, and that that is his main goal, not actually taking care of the kids or spending loads of time with them. At least not in my case, and I suspect it tends to be that way for many of the male BPD sufferers. There is less social expectation that they are the primary caregivers, so they aren't as motivated to actually be a hands-on parent. They just want to scare you into thinking that's what they're going after.

[ForeverDad]

On the one hand, you don't want to needless trigger overreactions by doing whatever you want.

On the other hand, you do need to keep firm boundaries and you can't make decisions based solely upon trying to avoid conflict or threats.  Appeasement and dancing around the issues didn't work in the past and it won't work now.  The more you give in, the more an acting-out disordered person will push.

You need to find a balance between the two extremes.  Keep in mind that he always 'won' the disordered dance in the past since it turned out you didn't have much information nor know what to do.  With education, support and objective reasoning, you'll be able to make more informed and more confident decisions.

[momtara]

I've calmed down a bit.  It was just more crazy threats from him.  But last year, he actually made good on a threat.  He claimed I hit our son when I didn't.  So I have to not put anything past him.

I am going to meet with two new lawyers this week.  By all rights, I should get primary custody of these kids, but it seems like I may have to fight for it anyway.  Hubby wants to sit down and talk, but he tends to distort anything I say later... . I'll have to see if I can calm him down a bit.

Thanks, everyone, for your advice.

[newlymarried]

If you live in a single party consent state record your meeting with soon to be ex hubby.

[momtara]

Oh, I've got plenty o' recordings.  But that's good advice!

[livednlearned]

Hubby wants to sit down and talk, but he tends to distort anything I say later... . I'll have to see if I can calm him down a bit.

Do you need to sit down and talk to him? Once your start entering into this legal stuff, be very careful about what you do or say. He could be recording you, too, and you can take things out of context to use against you.

In my experience, by the time I was preparing for divorce, there was no conversation that could possibly make things better. I was split black and there was no going back. Plenty of manipulation going on, but nothing that was sincere.

[momtara]

That's kind of the problem - He wants to talk to me.  However, if we talk, he could manipulate what I say later, and if we make an agreement, it may not stick anyway.

So now we are going to get into a legal battle that costs us a lot of wasted money and in the end it will be the same.

[arabella]

Is family law mediation available where you are? If you aren't familiar, this is where each party has a lawyer but they collaborate to work out a legally binding agreement rather than battle in court. It is significantly less expensive than a confrontational court-based approach and much more reliable than just working it out privately. It also helps to preserve the goodwill between the parties involved. If this is something that is available, I recommend finding lawyers that are familiar with this approach and the process involved - it really is a niche unto its own and requires a specific skill set on the part of the professionals.

[Forward2free]

People with PD's cannot have reasonable discussions about the future and no good can possibly come from it. It's easy to think that doing what we have always done before will pacify or calm them down. This may not be the case and could place you in danger. What if he is manipulating you now?

I don't think meeting is a good idea. Ask him to email you instead and you will respond via email, that way you are both protected and have time to think through what you are saying and the consequences.

Mediation is certainly where these discussions should happen, Arabella is right.

[livednlearned]

Is family law mediation available where you are? If you aren't familiar, this is where each party has a lawyer but they collaborate to work out a legally binding agreement rather than battle in court. It is significantly less expensive than a confrontational court-based approach and much more reliable than just working it out privately. It also helps to preserve the goodwill between the parties involved. If this is something that is available, I recommend finding lawyers that are familiar with this approach and the process involved - it really is a niche unto its own and requires a specific skill set on the part of the professionals.

Collaborative law is not generally a good idea for high-conflict divorces. Not sure if this is what is being referred to here, but if it is, keep in mind that collaborative law practitioners agree by contract to not litigate. That means if you can't come to agreement, you have to start over with two brand new lawyers. New retainer, new lawyers, new case. And by then, your ex will know what your terms of negotiation are. Preserving goodwill is a dream I had to give up with my ex. Maybe others have different experiences, but if so, they don't seem to be posting here.

I did mediation and we managed to resolve 98% of it, but have been battling out custody for 2.5 years. So even if you resolve things 100% in a settlement, that unfortunately does not mean you're done.

[momtara]

No, I am not meeting with him.  We are sticking to email.  Thanks, everyone, for your input!  I didn't go with the restraining order (he's already out of the house anyhow) but I am staying at arms' length.  Although we do have two kids together, so we'll be co-parenting.

[momtara]

yike - any advice?

i hope my custody battle doesn't go on for 2.5 years! 

[livednlearned]

yike - any advice?

i hope my custody battle doesn't go on for 2.5 years! 

BPD sufferers are all different, and our situations are all different (different judges, lawyers, courts) so 2.5 years might not apply in your situation, and my ex is an attorney, so this is an arena he is not intimidated by and he seems to like the negative attention. I would not agree to joint legal custody, which is making things drag on, and N/BPDx also had a psychotic episode last summer that temporarily took away much of his visitation schedule. That's why we're still in court. We agreed to an EOW + one overnight schedule, but it no longer applies. Now he wants it back.

Sigh.

[Forward2free]

I had court ordered mediation for property settlement - 2 separate rooms with our L doing the talking. Eventually resolved, less than I would have liked, but better in the long run.

Custody - ongoing since Oct 2009 when I applied for sole parental responsibility. Final orders in 2010 were in my favour. He took me back to court in 2011 for 50/50, ongoing, postponed till May this year. I will not consent to 50/50 and am fighting any overnights.

New family report next week.

LnL, I agree, it's a long road, and you have to pick your battles. A BPD L doesn't sound like a fair battle and I can only imagine the drama.

Momtara, there are some things worth fighting for. Choose those and be well prepared - these issues will cost more money and be more emotionally draining, but they are the most important. Accept what you can consent on if required and be willing to negotiate the things that don't matter as much.

It's tempting to want to fight it all, but I can't afford the money, time or emotional toll.

[Mind]

When I first started looking into this all, I too thought mediation would be the best way to go. After two times of him refusing to talk to me the times I had planned to tell him we need to do something about this marriage, I take it that was my firm sign.  He ended up filing first and seeing how he's acting now, there is no way talking would work.  He isn't capable of holding a calm conversation with me in my house let alone a calm, level-headed discussion about the children.

After, he told me, "I wish you would have come to me to talk to me about doing this through mediation."  Ha.   

[livednlearned]

I don't know what the norm is, but it seems like mediation is a crap shoot for many members here. My has very strong narcissistic traits, and I think we were able to mediate a lot of financial stuff because he wanted to look like big man on campus. When it came to physical custody of S11, he rolled over, but legal custody (which he perceived as having control of S11) was a different story.

You might be able to get some things done in mediation, but not all. And in some states or counties, it shows good faith that you tried to settle as much as you could between the two of you. But don't get discouraged if mediation ends badly. I can't remember who on bpdfamily.com has the signature, "This is a marathon, not a sprint" but that sentence is so true. For me, mediation was mile 5. It turned out to be an important point in the process, though, because N/BPDx is now not cooperating with things that he himself agreed to in the temporary order (that became permanent) from mediation 2 years ago. Judge doesn't like that one bit.

[momtara]

I am afraid of mediation because my husband wants to get back together with me.  I feel like if I say the wrong thing in mediation, it will make things worse.  Also, he has a habit of agreeing to something, then changing his mind later.  Since mediation is non-binding and confidential, it might end up wasted.  If he was rational, I'd like to sit down with him and talk stuff out.  I'm not sure I can do that, though.

[arabella]

It really depends on the type of mediation you do. It can be binding, depending on what you sign and if you agree to file the agreement with the court. A mediated agreement is quite often incorporated into the minutes of the separation agreement or divorce settlement. The reason you have a lawyer is so that you don't have to worry about saying the 'wrong' thing - your lawyer will be with you and will prepare you and guide you. Regardless, all of this is just speculation - you really need to speak with a lawyer and ask what your options are. A good lawyer will be able to answer these questions for you and deal with any concerns you have (as you've posted some excellent things to consider). If your lawyer can't answer your questions, or refuses to consider all of the options available - you need a new lawyer.

Hang in there!

[livednlearned]

Mediation also can take place in separate rooms. The mediator goes back and forth between both rooms, and you'll be in one of them with your L.

In my case, I also came in 15 min early so that N/BPDxh could not approach me before. We spent 9 hours in mediation and did not speak to each other once.

[GaGrl]

Mediation also can take place in separate rooms. The mediator goes back and forth between both rooms, and you'll be in one of them with your L.

In my case, I also came in 15 min early so that N/BPDxh could not approach me before. We spent 9 hours in mediation and did not speak to each other once.

I'm a mediator but work in corporate HR situations. I was trained to use separate rooms - I move back and forth between them. Definitely no need to feel the pressure of being in the same room.