Loss of Intimacy for 36 years

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have been married to my UBPDW for 44 years, and she stopped all intimacy 36 years ago.  I am codependent and discovered her BPD, and my Codependence two years ago.  I finally with my Ts advice wrote the following letter.

Dear:xx

     I am writing you this letter because I need to let you know my feelings.  I am hoping to find some positive way to improve our interactions and communications.  It seems that every time I attempt to discuss any issue with you, regarding our relationship, your emotions are triggered and further communication becomes impossible.  I have been frustrated by this failure to communicate so many times in the past.  I believe that you must be feeling similar frustrations.

   For a long time I have felt lost, alone, and unloved.  I am only human, and I do need Intimacy in the relationship with my Wife.  This lack of intimacy hurts me and is breaking my heart.  Many nights I cannot sleep because I just cannot clear my mind of thoughts of being so alone even though you are right next to me.  I feel that I have allowed this situation to exist for far too long.  I do love you and have asked you if you love me, and your answer was, “I don’t know.”  The way this feels to me is after 44 years of marriage, the actual answer is, “No!”  “I don’t know.” is an unacceptable answer after being together this long.  The only acceptable answer is yes, or no.

   This situation is intolerable, and unacceptable to me. 

You’re Loving Husband,

Her reaction to this was to blame me, as I expected, and projected it onto me, playing Victim.  A week later after silent treatment she acts like nothing ever happened and ignores it going on as before.  Does anyone have any comments?  Thank You,

Art

[artman.1]

I have been married to my UBPDW for 44 years, and she stopped all intimacy 36 years ago.  I am codependent and discovered her BPD, and my Codependence two years ago.  I finally with my Ts advice wrote the following letter.

Dear:xx

     I am writing you this letter because I need to let you know my feelings.  I am hoping to find some positive way to improve our interactions and communications.  It seems that every time I attempt to discuss any issue with you, regarding our relationship, your emotions are triggered and further communication becomes impossible.  I have been frustrated by this failure to communicate so many times in the past.  I believe that you must be feeling similar frustrations.

   For a long time I have felt lost, alone, and unloved.  I am only human, and I do need Intimacy in the relationship with my Wife.  This lack of intimacy hurts me and is breaking my heart.  Many nights I cannot sleep because I just cannot clear my mind of thoughts of being so alone even though you are right next to me.  I feel that I have allowed this situation to exist for far too long.  I do love you and have asked you if you love me, and your answer was, “I don’t know.”  The way this feels to me is after 44 years of marriage, the actual answer is, “No!”  “I don’t know.” is an unacceptable answer after being together this long.  The only acceptable answer is yes, or no.

   This situation is intolerable, and unacceptable to me. 

You’re Loving Husband,

Her reaction to this was to blame me, as I expected, and projected it onto me, playing Victim.  A week later after silent treatment she acts like nothing ever happened and ignores it going on as before.  Does anyone have any comments?  Thank You,

Art

[4now]

What a beautiful letter.  It expressed what I have been feeling in the past couple of years of my marriage.  I can't imagine how it must feel after so many years.  Kudos to you for expressing yourself in such a clear, concise and constructive way.  I was almost moved to think about writing a similar letter,  until I read your end result.  I am sorry it didn't work out as planned. 

Could you bring it up again?  What does your T say about her ignoring it? 

[artman.1]

4now,

     My T felt I would get the same as how it turned out.  I was not surprised either. Since I am a Codependent and am having trouble with the issues of a separation, plus my being in this Relationship for so very long, i am being very slow arriving at a final solution for my lonliness and missing marriage.  It is so very hard to continue in a totally loveless marriage that I have to essentially take care of my wife as if she were a child.  She has trouble with the simplest of things, except shopping.  She is not out of control with spending, but the shopping for groceries, and her needs around the home and her clothes is her best ability.  I tend to do the rest and with much complaining about my inadequacy.

     During my marriage, I had to find a life of my own to escape the continuous rages.  I attended night school most nights except weekends and fridays.  I, now have completed more than 500 credit hours of college courses, have an Electrical Engineering and Nuclear Engineering degrees, with a Professional Engineer's License and a Journeyman Electrician's license.  Now that I am ready to retire soon, I need to come to grips with my long lost marriage.

     I continue to work on myself towards recovery from Codependence, by attending weekly CODA meetings, and Therapist appointments.  I read most nights and study Codependent tendancies to help me understand my own behaviors so I can work on them.

Art

[blecker]

   This situation is intolerable, and unacceptable to me. 

Well Art, you seem very accomplished.

Your codependency has had a silver lining. Some do, most don't. In any case, you have written a nice letter that should have been sent decades ago.

Does the engineer in you see that you have gotten your yes or no answer?

Now what? Another letter? Another therapy session?

What you do with your retirement years is totally up to you, not her, not me, not your therapist, or your lastest accomplishment. It is up to you.

As Nike says... .

[artman.1]

blecker,

     I would say my codependency has probably ruined my life for the most part.  I have never understood why I had such timidness and could not assert myself.  Since my enlightening about my problem, I have greatly improved and am working on me every day.  I learned how to establish Boundries and Limits for myself and stopped the rages a year ago.  I no longer accept Dysregulation from my UBPDW.  I immediately leave for the remainder of the day and either go upstairs or to 24 hr Fitness.  This has nearly stopped her rages completely.  I know it is good for her because she must self regulate and cope with her pain herself. 

     My major issue is that I need to overcome my own fears and low self esteem and strengthen my own contentment within myself.  Leaving without properly recovering from my own shortcomings will just become a recipe for my disaster, as I would probably find someone even worse than what I have now.  I realize I am a BPD magnet, and always have these darned codependent tendencies where I need to fix things I should have no business in.  My bottom line is I believe I am getting somewhere with my Codependency and have detached to the point where I don't even get so upset with her behaviors any more.

Art

[hithere]

Well, you have x amount of years left in this world, do you want to spend it being sad, abused and unloved?  Maybe figure out an exit plan and slowly implement it, I don't see how your life can be any worse... .

good luck

[blecker]

OK Art but remember we are what we eat.

[Clearmind]

artman, going forward we all need to know what we want and what we want to see happen - before laying it out in a letter.

I would be honest and say she will feel invalidated and you will not get the outcome you want - which is some open communication.

Art, what do want? You say you are co-dependent - what dynamic do you bring to this relationship? Do you think the lack of intimacy is the "actual" issue here?

[artman.1]

What I had trouble with for some time was the question, WHY!  Why did I allow all the abuse for so long, until I became clinically depressed?  Why did I stay true to someone who raged and refused all intimacy?  I could live without marrital sex, but no hugs, or even holding hands, and I allowed that?  Well, I finally figured it out.  My Father was an Alcoholic in the biggest way, and my Mother was a codependent and lived with his daily verbal abuse and bad behaviors.  I learned that was what a marriage was supposed to be, and I was my mother's care taker at about less than 11 years old and older.  I had little interaction with my parents because my Mom worked to support us, and focused on my Dad, while my Dad was Drunk and out of the picture all the time.  I was embarrassed to have friends over, and I was an only child, so I became very Codependent in the extremely Classical way.  I always tried to fix everything so I could be recognised and praised/loved?  All this background resulted in my life of abuse, trying to fix and be loved.

    Well with a BPD that will NEVER happen!

Art

[artman.1]

Clearmind,

     I have been doing a total evaluation of myself and life.  I can see why I am the way I am.  Yes, my greatest issue is with the abusive lack of intimacy.  Everyone needs some kind of love, that I never got.  I need at least some gesture of love from my WIFE.

Art

[Clearmind]

Oh I agree with you there artman - however the lack of intimacy is maybe not the cause - the cause is something much more complicated - the lack of intimacy is how the core issue is playing out.

Your wife likely fears intimacy - so you go in with a letter that states that the lack of intimacy is not acceptable - she will shut down - she will blame you. We each play a role and if you are indeed co-dependent and had an alcoholic parent - it is likely your communication skills need some brushing up on. I lived through a childhood with a father who is an alcoholic - I know the legacy they bring.

Before we even go down the road of sending a letter like this - can I ask you question - Have you at any stage validated your wife and asked if she is open to talking about a few things - to make things better for you both?

[artman.1]

I have been working on me for a little more than a year.  I spent the first year mostly focused on BPD understanding, to the point, my T was asking me questions.  I have, since done a total focus on Codependency and on me.  I am becoming happier with myself and my own behaviors.  I have detached with love, and more with compassion and understanding.  I wrote the letter expecting her to behave the way she did.  My T said my letter was perfect before I gave it to her.  My T is a BPD specialist and facilitates DBT therapy with BPDs.  Both my T and I were shure that my UBPDW would find some way to blame me, and attack me about my letter.  I just became that more detached.  I know abandonment, and lonliness is a fear of Codependents, and I know I suffer from that, but I am getting better, and happier with myself.  I am getting closer to loving myself more than others.  That is another learned trait of codependents.  Baby steps is about all I can expect of myself.

     I have always focused on my dreams.  I started with a dream and when I attained that one I started a new dream, continually altering course little by little until I fulfilled that dream.  That is how I have been able to keep my own life going and taking care of me.  I am really fortunate that a great number of my wonderful dreams have been realized during my life.

Art

[Clearmind]

I get you have worked on you - thats great - however my dialogue with you is not about that - its more to do with helping you see that the underlying issue is not about intimacy. Its the underlying issue we all need to understand and work with our partners about. Forget the lack of intimacy for now artman - its not about that. I get its hard for you to not have intimacy with your wife.

Good open communication comes way before intimacy.

Not to disrespect your therapist - I am assuming you posted the note on the Undecided Board to gain some perspective from the members?

Before we even go down the road of sending a letter like this - can I ask you question - Have you at any stage validated your wife and asked if she is open to talking about a few things - to make things better for you both?

artman can you answer my question.

Both my T and I were shure that my UBPDW would find some way to blame me, and attack me about my letter.  I just became that more detached.  

I am confused by this statement – can you please explain.

[artman.1]

Clearmind,

    I do understand how my UBPDW fears intimacy.  She was totally abused as a child, with beatings and witnessing her alcoholic Dad beating her Mom.  Her Mom was an Alcoholic as well, and I believe she was BPD herself.  My UBPDWs Mom alienated the whole family and finally passed away all alone in a nursing Home in Yuma, AZ.  We were actually on our way to visit her Mom which we did at least every other year. Quite sad.  All my UBPDWs family are mixed up from their childhood.  Her older sister turned Lesbian after having a husband and two sons.  They grew up all messed up as well.  Her younger Sister who I believe has BPD, was married three times in about four years and had a daughter with her second H, and then caught AIDS because of all the bad choices she made with her sexual wants. She battles that to this day just to stay alive.  Her youngest brother has been in, and out of prison all his life.  Haven't heard from him in years.  My UBPDW is probably the best.  

    During our 43rd wedding anniversery at a real nice resturant, I talked to her in a very loving and validating way about how much I loved her, and she interrupted me to accuse me of Cheating on her.  I have never done that, and she is my one and only.  I realized that was Projection.  I am sure I had made her feel guilty and ashamed so to cope, she projected what she had done in the past.  She is not aware I saw her cheating, as I followed her that night and she did not know I was there watching her in our car with another guy.  I stayed because of our three sons who were at that time 3, 4, & 5 years old.  They are successful and happy with their own families today.  I must believe I was at least a big part of that success.

    Now, I am just working on me and aiming towards my next dream of finding happiness.

Art

[artman.1]

Claermind,

     Good open Communication!  She cannot commnuicate about anything but simple non threatening things that have nothing to do with Intimacy.  I did establish my boundries and stopped the raging.  I never communicated the boundries as these are mine and for my protection.  I just up and left when she started, so after three times, on the fourth, she said, "if I say that, you will leave." and stopped raging.  I wish I had known about boundries 40 years ago.  Yes, I care about her, but I have detached so much now that she has a hard time getting to me.  I validate her all the time, and can see her moods, and understand her coping mechanisms.  Well I must go to Aqua and work out... .  

Art

[artman.1]

Clearmind,

    Quote: Both my T and I were shure that my UBPDW would find some way to blame me, and attack me about my letter.  I just became that more detached.       I am confused by this statement – can you please explain.

    I was discussing the letter with my T, and she asked me what I expected.  My answer was that she would reject me and blame, which are classical BPD modes of behavior when confronted with their behaviors.  My first attempt was to use  validation, dearman, and set.  My T said I was being way to soft and to be assertive.  She said write the letter from my heart and forget all the communication techniques.  I re-wrote the letter and that one she liked and you have read it above.  I posted the letter to see what kind of response I would get.  I have never written a letter to her before except when I was in the navy on the submarine I was on overseas.  My T agreed that as a BPD, she would probably not give me the result I wanted.  She did think my letter would affix my needs in my UBPDWs mind.  I decided to give it some time.  Within a week she seemed back to normal.  I have at least noticed a little more concern from her if I skip the eavening meal because she was getting grumpy and heading towards dysregulation.  She never acted concerned about any discomfort I have ever endured before.  

    Is it possible that she may be thinking about the letter and attempting in her twisted way to show some kind of love?  I'm not really sure, but she may be afraid I may leave after she blew the letter off into my face.  I must say that I am seriously considering leaving and am just not quite ready yet.  I know others would chastise me for being slow to make up my mind, but it is just not that easy with all her health issues, and the length we have been married.  Since I am essentially alone now, I am not afraid to leave, but I feel some responsibility for the results of my actions.  I fear the results would not be good for either of us.  It is hard to weigh my needs against the unknown possibilities and probabilities. Additionally, how much love is a 66 year old man going to obtain after a separation?  I cannot believe that I have been successful at managing a $200 million construction contract with several hundred workers, and cannot even manage my own marriage. At least I can still work and make a reasonably good living for myself, and I can contract out in the consulting Engineering field.

Art

[Clearmind]

Hi artman - the tools help us get our point across without escalating conflict. If your plan is to not use the tools to insight conflict, in order to have the thought of "Oh well, there she goes, all crazy, I feel OK with leaving now" then you are attempting to poke the lion.

Artman, you are an intelligent man, who has a world ahead of him - you are the same age as my mom and she dates some very nice kind folks.

If you wish to leave, please do it in it a healthy way - for you and her.

If you wish to stay, please consider using the communication tools open to you.

[KateCat]

If you wish to leave, please do it in it a healthy way - for you and her.

If you wish to stay, please consider using the communication tools open to you.

Artman,

I'm your age, and I endorse what Clearmind is suggesting to you. It is likely that your therapist does too, and that the therapist is trying to help you make a choice. (It's less likely that the therapist is trying to get your wife to change in some fundamental way. The letter was perhaps "for you," in the therapist's mind, no?)

If others who have been reading your posts over time are as I have, then they may have been wondering, as I have been, "Will Artman ever be able to make a decision?" In my opinion, the act of making a decision is the act that begins to break the disease of codependency.

Making a decision is probably also the kindest thing you can do for your wife.

[artman.1]

I have tried and tried to use the communication tools.  I have worked so very hard to communicate with her, but her barriers are very high and she has, I believe, become so accustom to controlling me that the changes I have made within myself have set her off.  If my attempt gets into the areas of any serious issue that she is uncomfortable with, she shuts down, and communication is stopped.  I am sure some of this is on me, but I have been unsuccessful.  I guess some can live without love from their spouse, but I am so tired of that I just am at a loss.  She will allow me to hug her sometimes for a few seconds and always hangs her arms down at her sides, then twists away.  Mostly she tells me to leave her alone and not touch her before I even get within a few feet away.  She does that even when I had no intention of touching her.  This feels terrible to me, making me feel that she is totally sickened by my presence.

Art

[artman.1]

Furthermore, she treats me as a servant.  She demands constant vigilence to provide her with whatever she desires.  Water, food, whatever.  I have detached such that I no longer am available for her as a servant.  It has developed into a situation where I am considering going on vacation on my own, so I can get a break.  My biggest problem is I have trained her in the past to expect things that I should not have provided.  It always goes one way, and never in my favor.  I asked her to get me a glass of water a while back and if looks were deadly, I would have passed away immediately.  She refused.  When she does fix a meal, which is maybe once per week, she sets her place and I come to the bar or table and go get my own dishes for myself to eat with.  I never treat her that way.  You can see this has developed into a very dysfunctional Relationship.

Art

[blecker]

 You can see this has developed into a very dysfunctional Relationship.

Yes Art, it seems it has.

The issue in front of you is what are you going to do about it.

It is unlikely you will change her unless she wishes changing.

Does your therapist recommend that you leave the relationship?

[SunflowerFields]

Sounds to me like you are both paralyzed by fear

Fear of being alone (in her case)

Fear of not being able to find someone else - and thus being alone (in your case)

As long you are paralyzed by fear and let it determine your course of action, nothing will change

The only way to break through fears is to confront them head on

Do you think you have what it takes to confront your fear?

[artman.1]

Yes!  I can confront my fears.  There is more than fears that paralyze me.  Well, I guess these are all fears, but a lot more than being alone.  Alone is the smallest part.  I really do not fear that I cannot find someone else, but if I can find a better Relationship than I have. (I do not want to jump from the frying pan into the fire.)  I am lucky that I have good health.  She, unfortunately does not.  I am lucky that I could work and provide myself a very good living.  She, unfortunately does not.  She has had a part time job in the past for about 10 years, but totally unskilled type work, and has not worked for about 15 years.  My retirement and my Soc. Security is all we have after I retire.  If split, would place both of us in a low income situation.  I must hope the court would split our assets evenly.  Then we have, although minor at this time in our lives, our family relationships with our three sons and grandchildren. 

     It is just not so easy to break up after 45 years.  It has not always been bad and not totally bad right now.  I still care for her, but that does not really go both ways.  As you can see, this is a lot more complicated than first considered.

Art

[KateCat]

I must hope the court would split our assets evenly. 

Your state (which is also mine) is a community property state, but it is not a "pure community property state," such as California, in the sense that it has a series of criteria by which the court attempts to establish an "equitable distribution." You would need to consult with a family law attorney regarding your particular circumstances, but a distribution of community property with a 60%/40% split in her favor would not be too unlikely in the case of a very long marriage, with both parties having reached retirement age.

Deciding not to divorce for just this reason could be a very reasonable choice. If you can look at the financial realities and make your choice, one way or the other, it might take pressure off both you and your wife as you move forward.

[Louise7777]

Furthermore, she treats me as a servant.  She demands constant vigilence to provide her with whatever she desires.  Water, food, whatever.  I have detached such that I no longer am available for her as a servant.  

Art

Artman, Im very sorry to see you have been through all that. I have 2 BPD´s in my family, one of them is married for 50 years and treats her husband the exact same way (as a servant).

I think you hit the point when you said you trainned her to have her desires fullfilled. Thats what I have seen also in my family. People give in and they are never happy, they keep on asking for more, until everyone around is exahusted. And if you say no, prepare yourself for a child´s tantrum! For me its still unbearable, I just have to leave and go NC.

I really cant give you advice, sorry, but I think you are in the right way since at least now you can see the entire picture. And thats a BIG thing! Wish you all the best and keep us posted.

[artman.1]

I must hope the court would split our assets evenly.

Your state (which is also mine) is a community property state, but it is not a "pure community property state," such as California, in the sense that it has a series of criteria by which the court attempts to establish an "equitable distribution." You would need to consult with a family law attorney regarding your particular circumstances, but a distribution of community property with a 60%/40% split in her favor would not be too unlikely in the case of a very long marriage, with both parties having reached retirement age.

Deciding not to divorce for just this reason could be a very reasonable choice. If you can look at the financial realities and make your choice, one way or the other, it might take pressure off both you and your wife as you move forward.

Wow!  If that is true for this State, then I would have to work for the remainder of my life if I want to be able to eat meat and see a doctor once in a while.  That would suck.  I can see what I may have done to myself.

Art

[Louise7777]

On a more practical approach, it would be wise to see a lawyer. Divorce is not an easy thing, and dividing assets can be a problem, but maybe its the price to pay for your own peace of mind.

[KateCat]

It's not easy, as cristina points out, but make sure you know about all the benefits we seniors are eligible for, married or single. For instance, the fact that your wife--whether she is still your wife or turns into your ex-wife--will be due her own social security check each month. To maximize that check, she can claim her benefits based on her long-term marriage to you. Her check does not reduce your check in any way. Divorce does not impact her check or your check. (If, for instance, your monthly ss check is for $2,000, she will also get her own check, for $1,000.) Add medicare, reduced property taxes for retirees, housing assistance for low-income seniors, if your wife should one day need it. Eventually you may find all these things add up to more financial ease than you can now imagine.

It's a great idea to see a financial advisor and to run the numbers. Whether you stay or you go, it will be helpful and probably reassuring information.

[Louise7777]

Came to my mind that you can also dettach yourself from the situation in your mind at first. I read abt it somewhere, maybe its in "deciding to stay" board.

I believe it will give you some relief to be there, living together, but mentally you are out. It will prepare you to take a decision. It includes to move on with your life, meaning going after your interests, taking a course, finding a hobby, travelling with friends, whatever you find possible and appropriate for your case.

I take it back, you are not a servant, you are a slave. Servants at least have something in return, while with a BPD... . Thats from my experience, the 2 BPDs in my family use others as slaves and still its never enough for them. They play the blame card on people and I feel you have a lot of guilt going on, like you are responsible for her well-being! Im not saying leave her and never talk to her again, but seems to me you care more abt her than abt yourself... . Is your T helping you in that?

[lockedout]

I was luckily only married for 4 1/2 years, but the dynamic was about the same. When I (Yes, I) was going to marriage counseling, our therapist mention one other patient he had that had been booted out of the bedroom for the past 25 year. For me it had only been several months at the time and this was one of several wake-up calls. Without it,  I could have ended up right where you are.

You also mention in one post how you want to work on yourself and improve until you can leave. You can't start to heal until you leave. When we get burned, we get away from what's burning us and run it under cold water. Then we dress the wound.

You obviously have a lot of anger and regret for the lost years. But you also raised three kids that seem to be doing quite well and you self-medicated through education. Not drinking, drugs, sex addiction, turning into a horrible person, or sticking a gun in your mouth. Feel you feelings then learn to forgive yourself and see the good that came out of the 44 years. Look at the years you have left, not the ones that that passed.  Worry about the legal/financial stuff later. You may (and probably will) end up with less but you'll be enjoying them on your terms, not hers.