Emails and Update

[MammaMia]

You are doing the right thing.  Absolutely.

[Forward2free]

None of this is easy but you will find as others have said too, that you're reactions will be better as time goes on. The journey to start listening to your inner voice after shutting it down for so many years is really hard. You will probably constantly question how doing X might cause Y, P or 3 - but no one can guess how the N/BPD person will react.

Think about your area of influence and act comfortably within that - you know what's right and what needs to be done.

Don't overthink what might happen. It causes so much pain and the possibilities really are endless.

Trust yourself.

If you don't trust your L, or are questioning the response, have an open chat with her about how you feel and where you think their might be gaps, ask her to explain her point of view. If you haven't already, get a copy of the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder [Bill Eddy Author] and share it with your L.

Education is key. And breathing, don't forget to breathe and try and find some peace in the chaos.

[sad but wiser]

Sparkle, it is okay to protect yourself and one of your major responsibilities to protect your children.  It isn't your fault that you are between a rock and a hard place with him.  I'm sure you would have preferred a happy, stable home.

[Mind]

Yay-- I finally have them! After a very long, exhausting  week, the children are now with me! I picked them up today. They were so excited to see me. 

So of course there was a part that didn't go so great. My L advised me to ask H  for our home safe. He took it. He texted me accusing me that I took them. We went over this a month ago and he said he moved them before his surgery. When the girls ran out, he gave me their bags and handed me my papers. He told me I can't have the kids papers because he has legal rights! I simply disengaged immediately... .   he was clearly mad at me.

I am more at ease tonight for sure.

[sad but wiser]

I'm so relieved for you!  You must feel like having a dance party!  Or sleeping well for the first time in several days.

Yep, when my H moved, the first thing he wanted to take was ALL of our paperwork.  Realizing this, I grabbed my files out of the file cabinet and hid them.  So I have my paperwork and most of the kids' stuff.  I also, not by my planning it, have some other, vital paperwork that I needed to prove ownership of certain assets and that he has a BS and can support himself.  God is good!

[MammaMia]

Sparkle

Awesome!  hug your babies tight tonight.  I will bet they are happy to be home with their Mommy.

Was he served with the OOP today?  I would seriously encourage you to change the locks on your doors for added protection.  

I hope you get some well-deserved rest, you and the girls must be exhausted. 

[Forward2free]

I'm thrilled for you Sparkle!

My cynical side always questions whether the N/BPDxh wants the kids out of spite/perceived fairness, but because they don't have the skills to parent and haven't done it before, maybe they can't cope?

Guess we'll likely never know the reasons, but so happy the kids are back with you.

Take care and goodluck with the next steps too.

[livednlearned]

That's great news -- what a relief. Do they seem to be doing ok? How are you doing?

About the kids papers. There isn't a pressing need for them right away, is there? I'm guessing that you mean birth certificates, SSN, and passports?

For now, maybe you can ask him for copies, and then during your custody settlement, if you get sole legal custody or primary guardianship, make it explicit that you should be awarded the originals.

[mamachelle]

Yay!     

[Mind]

It was very much a HUGE relief for me!  The kids are doing wonderful!  I'm doing better and slept a little better last night. Although we were up pretty late,. My oldest keeps saying how good it is to see me.  My youngest is too young to really understand it all but she was so happy too.   

It's not urgent at all. With the papers it's the SS cards, title, I believe the deed to the house, my vehicle title, and of course the bonds for the girls that he's accusing me of taking.  I'm just learning about how this all works so I'm not going to worry about it right now.  It's just the whole theory behind it as to why he's keeeping it, to show his control and how unreasonable he is.  So the affadavit was dropped off yesterday and hopefully I will hear today.   I'm not sure when or if he will be served the second OoP.   This is a complete affadavit that is requesting different things including the OoP. Maybe that would happen next week?  I was told if I am granted occupancy of the house I could change the locks then.

Kormilda - that is so true with him.  He hasn't shown much parenting behavior before the D began. Now all of a sudden he's pretending to be this incredibly awesome new father.  I doubt it will last.

MamaM - yes, I am very exhausted. I really haven't slept well in a very long time with him in the house.  Once the locks are changed I think things will be much better for me as we move forward.

SBW - yes!  We love dance parties!  It was so great to finally get them back.

Question: What items should he be taking?  He can still get into the house and he is taking things. I noticed he took the table his parents bought the kids.  Should I start making a list of items I notice are gone?  Some of the stuff I don't care about. 

[ForeverDad]

Take photos or videos of the entire house, including contents of drawers and cabinets, ASAP.  You do need to document and track in case that information is noteworthy later.

Accept that some stuff is gone or disappearing.  Yes, it's a shame that he took the children's table.  Yes, it's partly a statement to you that he can do what he wants, but I figure he'll claim his parents bought it and he took it so that the kids can use it when with him.  Hard to counter that.  You'll have to decide where to pick and choose your battles, not everything can be challenged or is that crucial.

Meanwhile determine which sentimental items are most important to you and transfer them to a safe location he can't access until you get better security.  Secure or make copies of legal documents and account records.

Kormilda - that is so true with him.  He hasn't shown much parenting behavior before the D began. Now all of a sudden he's pretending to be this incredibly awesome new father.  I doubt it will last.

This is typical, it's an exaggerated emphasis of the human tendency to want to put our best foot forward.  A mask of seeming normalcy, involvement and concern.  In time it will falter and fade but for now he has to put on a show for family, public, court and his own neediness to control.

[MammaMia]

Sparkle

Ask your L what he is legally able to take and how to safeguard your personal belongings.  He will definitely need his

clothes, etc. and is entitled to them.

You just do not want to come home and find your house empty.  I really would change the locks as soon as legally possible.

That may sound paranoid... .   but better to be safe than sorry.

[livednlearned]

I don't want to sound like a total cowboy here -- I'm actually a rule follower in most of my life, to a fault.

But there is this weird area in family law where things are legal, and you must do those things or else you face consequences. Then there are things that are legal, and people don't follow those rules at all, and somehow everything seems to work out just fine.

If it is your safety -- changing the locks -- and he is taking stuff out of your house, then ask the L  "When people in my situation have changed the locks before being told they could by the court, what were the consequences?" Find out if your L thinks the court will tolerate your desire to feel safe, even though you don't have legal permission.

My L never told me it was ok to take half of everything, but she told me in other ways that it was common, and she indicated that the courts just shrug and get you to do a financial affadavit. He will have to account for the stuff he has taken, but it will only be given Craig's list value. Something that cost you $1000 will be valued at $100, for example.

When I was at your point in my separation from N/BPDx, everything I did felt aggressive and radical. Now I look at those actions and see them more clearly as reasonable, strategic, and smart actions that helped me take care of my own interests, which included what was best for S11. It was radical for me to hide with S11, and it was very radical to re-enter our home and take half of the furniture. I didn't even get a slap on the wrist for that.

Always good to check with your L, of course. 

[ForeverDad]

Livednlearned has a point.  The old family court saying does make sense in a way - Those misbehaving seldom get consequences and those behaving well seldom get credit.  A corollary is, It's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.

What that means is that except for some gross actions and certain technicalities a lot happens in family court cases that never gets much of a reaction from the court.  So the question is, do you feel the need and ability to be the slightly misbehaving one in this limited aspect?

The problem is that we generally don't know what courts really care about or react strongly to.  That's where a lawyer comes in, they can generally think like a judge does or has had experience in the past whether a certain action will trigger a judicial reaction or consequence.

Due to the minimal amount of data that the courts want to put on the record (appeals of court decisions generally can only reference what's on the record) it is evident the courts want the divorce to end without a clear winner or clear loser.  Hence they don't like to point fingers unless they really have to.

In your case, if (1) your spouse is not staying there anymore and (2) you've got fears about your spouse, it's not unreasonable to change the locks before getting the pending paperwork rubberstamped by the courts.  I won't say that it's right or wrong, you can decide, with or without your lawyer's input.

What might happen if you do change the locks?

• Spouse may break in anyway. (not nice, keep the 911 number handy)



• Spouse may have his lawyer protest. (may not go far since spouse isn't living there any more)



• Court may order you to give spouse a key.

Notice the second point.  If he's not sleeping there any more, you may have de facto residency, though informal, not (yet) court ordered and spouse can contest it.  If you have the 'residency' even if not official then you could maintain that you can change the locks and not give him a key until a court states otherwise.

Notice too that it's unlikely for you to end up in jail for merely changing the locks.  Yes, spouse may call a locksmith, however a locksmith, if aware of the separation, would likely be unwilling to get in the middle of the conflict.  Yes, spouse may get the police involved.  The police will pressure you to lower your guard, they are after all trying to defuse the immediate situation.  All you have to do is say you don't feel safe with him entering unescorted (police offer "peace visits" for just such circumstances to collect personal items) and likely they won't push any more.  (IMHO as a non-professional and non-lawyer.)

[Mind]

I haven't heard anything yet regarding the order to show just cause. Yesterday he talked on the phone to the kids. He told my oldest that if she wants to come over she doesn't have to ask me for permission and she should call him and he will come and pick her up. That is crazy! So if this happens I am guessing I tell him no, the kids are to stay in their residence in order to stay consistent with my DV claim and the new order, correct?

He also was asking her a zillion questions. I could tell the reason behind it wasn't because he had a true interest. He said he will call every night at that time.

I also asked the DV center about the criminal charges. She said they could be coming from the police. I could call and see if its in relation to my report. If the OoP gets approved he would be given those papers as well.

At least we all slept in today after this week... .  

[livednlearned]

I haven't heard anything yet regarding the order to show just cause. Yesterday he talked on the phone to the kids. He told my oldest that if she wants to come over she doesn't have to ask me for permission and she should call him and he will come and pick her up. That is crazy! So if this happens I am guessing I tell him no, the kids are to stay in their residence in order to stay consistent with my DV claim and the new order, correct?

He also was asking her a zillion questions. I could tell the reason behind it wasn't because he had a true interest. He said he will call every night at that time.

I also asked the DV center about the criminal charges. She said they could be coming from the police. I could call and see if its in relation to my report. If the OoP gets approved he would be given those papers as well.

At least we all slept in today after this week... .  

It's very likely that the criminal charges are coming from the police -- it's different depending on where you live, but in some states, law enforcement presses criminal charges separate from what you may have filed. Many DV victims change their minds (sometimes they get recycled, sometimes they are too afraid), and in general law enforcement do not want to be called back to the same house for the same reason over and over and over again. So they file criminal charges and may call DV survivors to testify. In some jurisdictions, failure to testify on behalf of a criminal charge against your abuser can be considered a crime itself  :'(  It's very messed up. Not saying that will happen to you -- it's different everywhere. Unfortunately, DV is so common and law enforcement and the courts deal with it in different ways, sometimes begin aggressive about prosecuting it as a crime can endanger the DV victim even more. Especially if he or she is put in jail for not testifying.

Once you start looking closely at family law, you realize how blunt and unfair an instrument it is for resolving human conflict.

[sad but wiser]

Dear Sparkle - It is all about control... .   his need for it and your escape from it.  Keeping that in mind has helped me defuse many ugly situations with my ex.

[Mind]

Sadbutwiser- very true. I keep telling myself this- that essentially he is losing control. This evening he talked to the kids. He asked my oldest five times if she had a nice day, who we went out with, did we go out to lunch, did we go to dinner. C'mon, he is trying to find out what I'm doing with the kids. He has no interest in them. After he asked me if he could take them tomorrow. I told him I have plans. He threatened that he has legal rights and he's going to do something about it. I simply refused to engage.

[MammaMia]

Sparkle

Keep up the good work!  Do not engage... .   that is what lawyers are for.

[sad but wiser]

   Keep walking Sparkle.  You are at an interesting phase.  He hasn't really figured out that you have figured him out.  It can be fascinating to watch.

[livednlearned]

You are at an interesting phase.  He hasn't really figured out that you have figured him out.  It can be fascinating to watch.

That's so true. It's one of the parts of coparenting with a BPD ex that is so surreal. You are going to change, but he won't. And he won't understand that you have changed. Being so close to mental illness is fascinating, altho very tragic and said, too (goes without saying!). Made me very philosophical about what reality is and isn't.

[MammaMia]

Unfortunately BPD "reality" will never on the same level as ours.

In order to deal with them effectively, we need to think like them.  Anticipate and rationalize how they will react, and then tailor our response to try to avoid that reaction.

It is like living in two parallel worlds, isn't it?  Perhaps reality varies depending on how you view it

and interpret it.

[Mind]

Thank you for the wonderful words of encouragement!  I am very thankful for all of my friends here!

SBW -  Interesting comment.  Keep walking and moving forward is what I need to do. All of my energy that was put into him and trying to help him, fix him and that constant fight is now being put into myself.  I felt a bit of relief this weekend with him not near me.  I even felt a slight bit of empowerment which is new for me.   That's true.  He hasn't figured it out yet but this past weeked I can tell his energy changed.  Last night's conversation with the kids was more subdued.  He is trying to get the scoop as to what my every move is while he is losing control quickly.

I discovered he took the power cord to our tv. Another method of his to 'punish' me so I wouldn't be able to use it.  Too bad I already got a new one.  Still waiting to hear on the status of all of the paperwork.

[ForeverDad]

I discovered he took the power cord to our tv. Another method of his to 'punish' me so I wouldn't be able to use it.

This would be something good to use as an example of how the separation went down(hill).  Some of the people involved in your case won't be moved by his innuendos, insinuations, subtle retaliation, blaming, blame-shifting, bad-mouthing, ranting, raging, etc but hearing that he stooped to the taking the TV's power cord may get through to them.  Seemingly minor but very revealing.

[sad but wiser]

I discovered he took the power cord to our tv. Another method of his to 'punish' me so I wouldn't be able to use it. Too bad I already got a new one.

Thatagirl!  I changed my own spark plugs, air filter, oil and got my car smog checked - all without his input.  It passed!

He took the weed wacker.  I asked for it back and asked to borrow the chain saw.  Nice!

[Mind]

Sbw-- Wahoo! For a split second I felt a sense of empowerment.

Paperwork is still at the court. I followed up and it sounds like it was something administrative that is holding it up. My L told me not to discuss custody or make arrangements with him. He tried threatening me over the weekend and said he has legal rights. He texted me he's picking the kids up for an overnight this weekend. He told my oldest she doesn't have to ask me to go with him- that she can just call him and he'll pick her up! The anxiety started for me; she looked confused as to why she wouldn't ask me. He's completely putting her in the middle.

Ah... .   That's what's missing from our shed. The weed wacker! I knew it looked bare.

[VirtuousWoman]

During a divorce, it is extremely important to keep your sanity. Stay grounded. The ex-spouse will try to throw you off-guard to get you say something they can use against you later.

[sad but wiser]

Be calm when you ask for your tools back.  Regarding your kids, I received a really nice piece of advice from another member - stay calm and tell them you and their dad will work all of that out between you.  (even if you privately think it will end in shouting matches)

Being direct with my spouse about the things he says to the kids, in a calm way, has taken him by surprise.  I asked him if he had told the kids this or that.  He evaded. I asked again, pleasantly, more specifically.  He answered in a sideways manner.  I informed him that the things I was hearing were making me paranoid about him and explained that it wasn't helpful.  He claimed ignorance.  (this is not credible)  I allowed him to bow out gracefully, but the look on his face told me that he had to respect me.  It has been a long time since I saw that kind of respect on his face.

Of course your daughter has to obey you.  Be calm and pleasant and clear with her on that issue.  Your calm will give her peace.   

[Mind]

I'm making a list of items that have walked.  There are a few gifts he gave me that he took. That's for down the road.

SBW - that is great advice to let them know that he and I will work all of that out.  That will help with my oldest. I like that sense of staying calm about things. 

Last night he texted me that he is planning on picking up the kids this weekend for an overnight and returning them the next evening.  My L told me not to make any arrangements with him. Plus, having the DV claim and new OOP in the works, I have to keep consistent and firm. My intuition has been right on and I feel he is dangerous.  How do I respond to this text?

VW - yes, staying grounded is so important and I see how he tries to throw me off balance.  I believe he enjoys doing this.   

[MammaMia]

What did your lawyer say about changing the locks?  Do you have to wait until after he is served?

If you feel he is dangerous, do not let him near the children or yourself.