The phrase "toxic shame" does not make sense to me

[Maryiscontrary]

I really had a hard time understanding what this really was. It is like a slogan. I think what it means is when a person values their human real estate or personal domain, very poorly. Poor self worth so profound that it goes unprocessed.

I don't know. Toxic shame as a phrase just sounds so loaded and sensational.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Unhealthy or toxic shame can create a negative self image or self esteem, so your definition is accurate in that sense.  Toxic shame (the terminology) sounds sensational to me, too.  But I suspect they used those terms to get the point across.

Unhealthy or toxic shame is a learned feeling, I believe.  It can result from a parent telling a child they ought to be ashamed of something when that type of thinking is unnecessary and harmful.  Unhealthy shame tells me that I am bad.  It tells me that at my core I am bad and I am defective.

Healthy shame communicates to me that I have done something potentially harmful, and it is a natural feeling.  If I lie to cover up something, and then I admit to the truth later, I will most likely feel some healthy shame for my behavior.  It should work like an alarm, acting as a catalyst towards positive change.  I know healthy shame, I believe, by first understanding my values.  I maintain my value system by enforcing healthy boundaries. 

I am human, so I do not always follow my value system to the law.  When I fall short, the way towards growth is to recognize the value I crossed, forgive myself and move forward.  I may have done something 'bad', but that does not mean I am a bad person at my core.  It means I am a human being who is imperfect.  So, what is important for me is to know my value system and do my best to maintain it, and when I don't, to find the willingness to try again.  Some people just don't care, or do not know what their value system is.

The parent or person who passed on these negative feeling states probably had a distorted value system or a distorted image of themselves.  A big part of my recovery is finding my own value system and doing my best to live by that.  Another big part is to reject messages that I learned that I now realize caused unnecessary pain and disruptive feelings about who I am as a person. 

Toxic or unhealthy shame can keep people stuck in certain harmful behaviors.  They will keep acting out behaviors over and over again that ultimately cause them pain.  I believe much of this is done subconsciously until an awareness begins to take place, at least that has been the case with me.  Unhealthy shame tells me I am a bad person at my core, that I am defective.  If I believe I am defective at my core, then what is the use in trying to modify my behavior.  I am already unworthy.  There is a term in addiction called a shame cycle.  I screwed up again.  I am a bad person.  I might as well do it again.  Over and over.

If I know my value system and make an effort to adhere to that and to my boundaries, I am much less likely to experience the negative feeling states and consequent negative behaviors due to unhealthy shame.  I am more likely to accept myself as a worthwhile human being who is a good person at the core.  I believe at my core I am a good person, and I believe you are, too.

[MaybeSo]

Guilt: Feel bad about something I did wrong; temporary, provides information and motivation,  I can do better

(Toxic) Shame: The feeling that I am inherently bad or flawed; entrenched, non-productive, no way out

[seeking balance]

In the research data, shame directly  corresponds to eating disorders, addiction, aggression, & bullying - thus the toxic label.

Brene' Brown has done an incredible amount of research on this topic - she is truly an expert in this.  Her OWN interview and TED talks are very eye-opening.  Also, for me - I really like it because it is all data driven in both quantitative and qualitative research.

[Phoenix.Rising]

To be honest, I was unsure whether to use the term 'healthy shame'.  I'm aware there is argument as to whether or not shame can be healthy.  I find myself questioning this.  I initially thought about using the term guilt, instead.  I'm not convinced; however, that there is no such thing as healthy shame. 

Here are some useful quotes: 

"According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about and to feel guilty about actions that gain the approval of others." 

Tangney, JP; Miller Flicker Barlow (1996), "Are shame, guilt, and embarrassment distinct emotions?", Journal of Personal Social Psychology

"Similarly, Fossum and Mason say in their book Facing Shame that 'While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person.'"  (This sounds toxic or unhealthy to me. ~Phoenix.Rising)

Lewis, Helen B. (1971), Shame and guilt in neurosis, International University Press, New York

"Psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman concludes that 'Shame is an acutely self-conscious state in which the self is 'split,' imagining the self in the eyes of the other; by contrast, in guilt the self is unified.'"

Herman, Judith Lewis (2007), "Shattered Shame States and their Repair", The John Bowlby Memorial Lecture

[seeking balance]

To be honest, I was unsure whether to use the term 'healthy shame'.  I'm aware there is argument as to whether or not shame can be healthy.  I find myself questioning this.  I initially thought about using the term guilt, instead.  I'm not convinced; however, that there is no such thing as healthy shame. 

Guilt is healthy, shame is lethal according to the research from Brown.

She used this example:  you go out on a work night and get drunk feeling horrible and unproductive the next day at work.

Shame says, "I suck, I am a failure, I am stupid"

Guilt says, "That was a stupid thing to do - next time I won't do that"

Also, she says that with children, shame - parents won't hear about and guilt comes with (her words) a rightful indignation for getting "called out" and parents will hear about it - which is a good thing.

OWN network has 2 hours of interviews with her - it was all fascinating. 

[Maryiscontrary]

Is it really shame, or is it unprocessed data? I know that when I can process it, my own self hate lessens. I think a person feels shame when they have soft underbellies or weakness they can't hide. Inadequate. Not up to snuf. Failure. Those sorts of feelings. I don't know if I get that concept through the phrase "toxic shame".

[sheepdog]

Is it really shame, or is it unprocessed data? I know that when I can process it, my own self hate lessens. I think a person feels shame when they have soft underbellies or weakness they can't hide. Inadequate. Not up to snuf. Failure. Those sorts of feelings. I don't know if I get that concept through the phrase "toxic shame".

Mary, I had never heard that phrase either but when my therapist said it to me, I looked it up.  I don't know if I'm permitted to share links but I stumbled across this article:  www.breakingthecycles.com/blog/2012/11/02/shame-the-core-of-addiction-and-codependency/ .  And I related to virtually all of it.

I'm not sure what you meant by 'soft underbellies' but I have to admit that it kind of got my back up for a second.  I don't believe I have a soft underbelly or that I am a weak person.  But a failure - yes.  Thinking I am a mistake just by existing - yes. 

I don't think it is sensational.  I think it is real.  As someone else said, "Healthy shame or guilt is 'I made a mistake.'  Toxic shame is 'I AM a mistake.'"  I think the word toxic is used because it is there - constantly.  Always.  That feeling is constantly there.

[Finished]

The way my therapist explained it to me is like this ... .  

Think of Shame on a scale of 1 - 10.

1 = Lowest Level of Shame (Easily dealt with. Doesn't hinder behavior or thought patterns. Like being ashamed of walking off with a pen at the grocery store)

5 = Average Shame (Harder to deal with. Causes us to think differently. Maybe telling a lie to our best friend. We would feel bad about this. Then go confess. Change our behaviors. Learn a lesson. However, it doesn't stick with us in a negative way).

10 = Extreme Shame (Causes us to change behaviors - may affect sleep. Feelings over thoughts, actions, deeds that we either did or were done to us. These can be handled but only with much work and devotion.)

11 = Toxic Shame (Off the charts basically. It affects every aspect of our lives. Our thoughts, behaviors, actions are influenced and directed by how we feel. Accompanied by high levels of pain. It is such a deep seated level of Shame that it almost becomes a part of who we are. While we may recognize we are ashamed of something, someone with Toxic Shame may feel helpless to address the shame because they are convinced it is "Just who they are". In the mind of the person suffering from Toxic Shame addressing that shame is essentially the same as changing who they are as a person. Toxic Shame permeates that persons whole self.)

Everyone experiences shame in their lives. The intenseness of the shame is what differientiates Toxic Shame from other types of shame.

[jaird]

Might be related to self loathing, which my ex says she had. She was very uninhibited sexually, and would do anything to please me. We never did anything that both of us wanted to do, but I wonder if she didn't feel bad about it afterwards, though I had no idea that she did. I think her T put the idea in her head that she was self loathing.

[MaybeSo]

If you are watching the free Self Acceptance Project videos (I think Clearmind posted it originally)  #9 with Brene Brown, who researches the concepts of shame and empathy, gives probably the best explanation (and examples and consequences) of shame I've yet heard.  Her recording is #9 in the series.  It is WELL worth watching.

www.live.soundstrue.com/selfacceptance/event.php