Lying

[hellokitty4]

I caught my BPD friend lying... .   I'm not even sure why she had to lie.  On a regular day we would be in touch either by phone or by text.  The whole week she was calling me and texting me a lot. Thursday she called me 5 times. Yesterday I sent her a text at around 8am.  I didn't get a response until 10:00 saying she was busy. Understood. In the afternoon around 2p I sent her a text just to check in. She didn't respond until 4:30 saying she didn't have her phone... .   total b.s. because her phone is attached to her hip especially while her kids are in school. I had a feeling she was with another friend which is totally fine but why lie?  This morning she immediately sensed that something was different with me. I told her that I honestly thought she was with so-and-so. She said no I went to dinner with my husband. I said "no during the day" and then her face changed. Up to last night she was acting like she wasn't lying... .   it is so stupid to lie about something like that. 

I stayed away all day but this afternoon I called her... .   no answer. I sent her a text telling her maybe we should talk to clear things up. She responded but not to address her lying and brought up some thing that had nothing to do with it. And as usual blaming me.  Somehow it all got turned around and I did her wrong. I just said "Yes you're right, I shouldn't have said those things. I apologize for all of it." I don't expect to hear back from her. And I'm leaving her alone.

She couldn't even address her wrongdoing even when she was caught in a lie. Do they all lie? And how do you guys handle the lying? It's a boundary to me. Should I tell her or should I just let it go.  She lies to everyone... .   her mom, her dad, her husband, her friend of 20 years, and basically lives in a web of lies.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[yeeter]

She couldn't even address her wrongdoing even when she was caught in a lie. Do they all lie? And how do you guys handle the lying? It's a boundary to me. Should I tell her or should I just let it go.  She lies to everyone... .   her mom, her dad, her husband, her friend of 20 years, and basically lives in a web of lies.

Sounds like you know her.  This is good.

At the same time you state that lying is a boundary for you.  Given she is prove to lying (pervasively, you army the only one.  Sounds like it's just part of who she is), what type of boundary is it for you?

[bluebasket321]

Hi hellokitty4,

I know what you're talking about -- am going through a similar situation with my friend (who also has her phone attached at the hip but will make stories about not being able to check it for 2 days, for example.)

Most of the time when I know she's lying I try to figure out what feeling it might be trying to conceal. Sometimes I can figure it out easily but other times I can't. When she tells little white lies or exaggerates things a bit, I don't mind that much.  But when she makes up lies to avoid taking responsibility for something, I get really annoyed.

For example, one time she was out late clubbing and called me saying she was going to come over to my house, so I waited up for her.  It was getting later and later but she would call at intervals and assure me that she was coming so I stayed up waiting even though I was tired.  At around 5am, she sent me a message saying, "Oh, I see your light is out, I guess you fell asleep" obviously implying that she was outside my house.  Since I was still awake and my light was on, I was confused. I checked outside but she wasn't there. Sent her a text saying, "I'm still awake, what are you talking about?" and got no reply.  I called her but she didn't pick up.

If she had simply told me, "Sorry, change of plans" I would have been annoyed for the inconvenience. But to inconvenience me and then tell such a boldfaced lie about it is a total insult to my intelligence. When I asked her about it later, she told me a million other little lies (it sounded like a random list of excuses, there was no coherence to them). I'm a forgiving person, if she had just said, "I'm sorry I screwed up" that would have been enough for me.

That's just one example.  This type of scenario plays itself out on a smaller scale all the time, from her saying she didn't receive messages or emails, to saying she's injured when it isn't true.

I agree with what you say about this being a boundary issue, but the whole boundary thing can be so confusing for me.   

I’m really interested in knowing how to respond to these lies.  Up until now, I have just ignored them, changing the subject.  But I’m starting to feel that’s letting her off the hook too easy.

Am interested in swapping ideas with you!

[hellokitty4]

bluebasket321, are we talking about the same friend? I couldn't help asking that.

The lying gets to me because I have been accused of lying or hiding so many times. I never thought she would lie to me. No wonder she always told me that I should always believe her because "she doesn't lie." Liars will always be liars because to them that is their truth? She actually can rant and rave and still be able to keep the same story and the same lie. Must be something they master. Although one cannot really call it a lie because she's not really lying, she's omitting the information. So how can you even approach it as a lie? In my BPD's case, I was in contact with her by text that day. She had vague answers. I always wondered why she just couldn't straight out tell me. It's as if she wants to hide it. Yet if I had asked her directly she would have accused me of wanting to know everything.

When I called her out on her lying by omission, somehow it got turned around and I was raged at and still at minimal contact right now. I imagine she realized that I now know that she lied to me when she calmed down and doesn't know how to approach the issue so she'll just hope I don't bring it up. Like a child... .   "oh if mommy doesn't bring it up, maybe she forgot about it. I better be good and quiet for a few days and hope she doesn't bring it up again."   So what do we do about their lying? I have ignored it just like you have but at some point I think it will eat us up. When I see her face to face again, and if she is in a normal mood, I plan to tell her that she doesn't have to hide anything. To just say it as it is because for all she knows, I wouldn't even ask. Like probably most BPDs she lies to protect herself and not to spare me from the truth.

I will let you know if I come up with ideas. I hope some other experienced folks can chime in... .  

[waverider]

My partner tells white lies constantly with absolutely no reason to at times. It has been ingrained as a result of being ashamed of who she is, what she does, and generally totally invalidated by her family her whole life. No amount of validating and reassuring will stop this, it can be lessened but not eliminated. Its like trying to get someone to loose their accent.

It is born out of insecurity defensiveness rather than malice in our case.

I have finally come to accept this as an impediment to a point that I almost find it quaint rather than resenting it. Frustrating at times, but I can read it like an open book now and it has few serious ill effects.

[bluebasket321]

I agree that lying is a part of BPD that we have to radically accept, but I think we also have to accept that lying has consequences as well.

For example, normally if someone told me one of their relatives had just passed away, I would naturally respond with sympathy and try to be there for them. Now, lets say my BP friend says it (maybe in the context of explaining why she flaked out about something) – suddenly I’m in a bind; if I just ignore it, I appear to be an insensitive person. If I go along with it, I’m allowing it to serve as an excuse for something else which makes me feel very resentful. I could simply say, “I don’t believe you”, but that would be opening the door for a BP rage.

The latest incident of this kind with my BP friend was last week.  I had just returned from a 2 week vacation and was looking forward to seeing her on Tuesday, our usual night out.  I sent her a text in the afternoon asking “Are you free tonight?” and she didn’t reply until the following day late at night, saying: “Hey sorry, no I wasn’t I fell and hurt my knee. Was in pain, didn’t feel like going out so I checked in early and left my phone in the car til today evening. How you been?”

I was really annoyed because she’s done this kind of thing a lot (not responded to messages regarding plans and then made excuses afterwards) and we’ve even talked about it so I was pretty miffed that it was happening again.

I wasn’t sure what to do:

(a) ignore the lie completely, and say something like “I’m fine, just enjoying the nice weather” without mentioning her knee.

(b) say, “Riiiiight, sure you did” which would no doubt put her on the defensive.

(c) try to be up front and say, “Look it’s ok, you can just say you were in a bad mood and didn’t feel like meeting up”, which would probably also put her on the defensive.

(d) respond as if I believed her: “Oh no! Is everything ok?"

I think I’ve tried all these responses at one time or another. Doing (a) is pretty easy, even if it makes me seem callous but I feel that it might encourage the same behavior. 

What I ultimately responded was, “Sounds horrible, it must have been a really serious injury to put you out like that. I guess you'll be out of commission for awhile. Take it easy and let me know if you need anything" (i.e. if you’re really injured you can’t go out for a long time, so I probably won’t see you for awhile).

I don’t know if she read it that way, but she responded:

“Yup sorry as you said will be outta commission” (which I read as, ‘Ok, fine with me!’)

Not sure if all this rambling makes any sense, but just needed to get it off my chest!

[hellokitty4]

bluebasket321 I swear my BPD and your BPD are the same person!

Her response to you would have been okay until she got to the "left my phone in the car til today evening... . "  Really? If she's like my BPD, her cellphone is her lifeline... .   texts, phone calls, and FB  so hard to believe that they're suddenly careless about their phones. My BPD sleeps with her phone!  I am not attached to my cellphone yet I rarely forget my cell phone.  I don't think they understand that their lying has consequences... .   and usually those consequences have something to do with punishing us nonBPDs. It's passive-aggressive behaviour.

Just think if you left your phone overnight in your car, what do you think would happen?

Ha!

[bluebasket321]

, I wonder if they’d get along if they met – would sure be interesting to witness!

I agree, it’s about punishing.  Because if it was just a question of not wanting to hang out, she could just as easily have answered the text and said she couldn’t make it, instead of waiting a day and a half to say a word. But I guess she got some gratification out of leaving me hanging like that, especially knowing it upset me. I think that when I act unfazed in these situations it annoys het, but at least then she can always accuse me of ‘not caring’…

[hellokitty4]

it is always something, isn't it?

I am actually considering going NC. Not only so I can have a break but also for an attempt to make her realize her mistakes all through the years and for her to realize that I was the friend who stood by her when no one was there yet I am also the friend she took for granted  and took things out on. She never acts this way with her other friends and blames me for making her act or react the way she does with me.  This will also be my time to enjoy the things I love to do and spend some time with other friends who have stuck with me through all this.

I'm actually kind of fed up already. I do want to have some sort of face-to-face with her. This friendship either has to change or end. I cannot always be the one adapting. Sadly because on the surface she looks happy, while I wear my heart on my sleeves, people will think that there is something wrong with me and not with her. I don't care anymore.

[waverider]

In these cases I take the reasons given as unnecessary information that I dont need to know, so it makes no difference what the excuse is. If they simply didn't do what ever simply because they didn't feel like it then that is ok, but I also accept that they would feel that was not an acceptable excuse as they would not accept that from others, so the embellish. Conversely when you have a logical excuse for not doing something they dont believe you as they expect others to lie just as they do, because they are no different to everyone else... .

Even regular folks tell these kinds of white lies, pwBPD just seem to get stuck in the mind set that you either do XYZ or you have an extreme excuse not to, little or weak reasons not to fall into that grey area, and they dont function in the grey.

[bluebasket321]

Hellokitty4,

I have considered going NC, but I want to make sure it’s really what I want first since it’s not something I would want to go back on. If this were a romantic relationship I definitely would have broken it off a long time ago, but somehow since it’s a friendship I don’t feel as comfortable doing so.

Is your friend in any kind of treatment for BPD or is she unaware that she has a problem?  I had a session with AJ Mahari, who told me the relationship dynamic would probably stay the same unless she were getting treatment (which she isn’t).

Waverider, that’s an interesting explanation about why the lies might be so extreme – I never really thought about it tying in with the black-and-white thinking.

[motherof1yearold]

My ex BPD partner lies to the point of gaslighting me. I'm honestly not sure how to handle it besides knowing what I KNOW.

My BPD friend (who is open about her BPD) has told me she lies about things she doesn't have to lie about . She doesn't know why but she has brought it up on her own on several occasions.  I know she has lied to me before... . I just distance myself.

[haliewa1]

My issue with the BPDexgf was she would lie by omission then tell me I didn't ask her that question when she would admit she lied.  I told her I now understand the rules of the game that I need to ask the question the right way.  She wouldn't admit that but I knew it got to her.  Also, she is 48 years-old, never been married or had children.  She has had a long time to develop her talent of lying!

[waverider]

My ex BPD partner lies to the point of gaslighting me. I'm honestly not sure how to handle it besides knowing what I KNOW.

Given this is your ex there is little chance you will change that now. What level of interaction do you have with your ex and how does it affect your life to a degree that you need to address it?

There has been discussions between staff here as to whether gaslighting (pop culture term from the movie) is really an accurate description of this behavior and can in fact be misleading. The original source depicts a sane mind using systematic intent to brainwash for criminal purposes. Whereas with pwBPD it is more often a defensive mechanism to escape "detection"

[VeryFree]

Lying, manipulating, lying again.

Yes been there with my stbxw.

She lied about all sort of things, from former boyfriends to householdtasks. The first I noticed her lying was early in our r/s: the first year. I noticed my history-tab in my internetbrowser was on, while I didn't use it. Looking further in the history and elsewhere in my computer I discovered it was used, while I was at work.

No problem of course, so I asked: did you have problems with your computer? No she said, why? Because you used mine. I didn't. Even when I showed her the history she still denied. Even when I suggested to change the locks of our house, because probably strangers entered to sniff around my computer she didn't want to tell the thruths.

Dozens of those incidents happened. Prove or no prove: didn't mind.

At a certain moment I videotaped my office when I was away (FLEAS!) and she entered it every time, sniffing around, going through my drawers, paperwork, computer and so on. When I confronted her with this the argument was about my taping my own office. Not about her going through my private things. (looking back she probably was right, but the fleas were everywhere!).

[hellokitty4]

In these cases I take the reasons given as unnecessary information that I dont need to know, so it makes no difference what the excuse is. If they simply didn't do what ever simply because they didn't feel like it then that is ok, but I also accept that they would feel that was not an acceptable excuse as they would not accept that from others, so the embellish. Conversely when you have a logical excuse for not doing something they dont believe you as they expect others to lie just as they do, because they are no different to everyone else... .

My BPD went out with another friend. That isn't something that a non would lie about or even intentionally hide. She made up where she was at the time of our text exchanges. I didn't ask what she was doing. I merely sent a good morning text. The response to that text came 2 hours later. "good morning... .   sorry busy." I would have left it at that. But then a mutual friend asked me if I went shopping with my BPD and the other friend. When I asked BPD friend, she denied it. Why? Because she thinks I do the same... .   go out with other friends and not tell her. When I did go out with other friends and told her about it, she went on a big time rage about it. One would wonder why this is such a big deal... .   I myself wonder but I'm used to it now. She doesn't want me doing the same. A double standard. She doesn't want me getting ideas that I can do the same. She doesn't want anyone getting close to me. Although there are safe people.

We're not in Jr High and I am not putting up with her wanting me isolated anymore. I will deal with the lying... .   pick my battles.

[benny2]

Yes my pwBPD lies about alot of things. He recently confessed to me that his ex wife spent the weekend with him. I was so shocked that I totally blew it off because he actually came out and told me the truth. We are not in a serious relationship right now, so I really did not think I had the right to become angry about it, but the fact that he told me the truth was completely new for him. I don't think its the start of becoming an honest man, but I wanted to show him that its far better to tell the truth than lie.

[motherof1yearold]

My ex BPD partner lies to the point of gaslighting me. I'm honestly not sure how to handle it besides knowing what I KNOW.

Given this is your ex there is little chance you will change that now. What level of interaction do you have with your ex and how does it affect your life to a degree that you need to address it?

There has been discussions between staff here as to whether gaslighting (pop culture term from the movie) is really an accurate description of this behavior and can in fact be misleading. The original source depicts a sane mind using systematic intent to brainwash for criminal purposes. Whereas with pwBPD it is more often a defensive mechanism to escape "detection"

I agree with what you say about the term gas lighting. In my case it was a bit of a both , wanting me to think I am crazy and avoid detection. He wanted to change my perception of reality.

My contact with ex is all about parenting now, but the lying is a big problem . Example: My infant came back from his house with burned palms (looked like chemical burn or bad heat burn) so I asked him what had happened so I knew what ointment to apply to it. He replied back saying "that happened at YOUR house! And my parents and I have taken pictures and we will report you if you don't SHUT UP ! "

Also after relationship he stole some diamond and gold rings from me right in front of my face and denied it adamantly... .   also stole electronics and continues to tell me I "lost them" .  I have NO IDEA how to handle things like that.  At all.

[hellokitty4]

Is your friend in any kind of treatment for BPD or is she unaware that she has a problem?  I had a session with AJ Mahari, who told me the relationship dynamic would probably stay the same unless she were getting treatment (which she isn’t).

bluebasket321, my friend is undiagnosed but have definite BPD traits... .   down to how she says things... . similar to what I have read on this board. I can't stop nodding my head when reading about others here. Anything I do or say at a time when she's dysregulated, I am her target. I don't even have to open my mouth... .   I get the brunt of it. I imagine her husband used to be her target. He once told me "welcome to my world" of course at the time I did not know what he meant.

She often would say "I want to go back to normal." That leads me to believe that she is aware that there is a problem. She has thyroid issues and Graves' disease and is prone to depression so she believes her mood swings are caused by them. She is irrational and often do not know what she wants. She pushes me away and blames me for it and given some space she pulls me back in. She wants the closeness yet when we get close she subconsciously or consciously does something to create an issue. She wants me close but not too close. Too confusing. And childish in so many ways. Projecting is a big time issue. I have also mastered reading between the lines and understanding how she chooses to express things. For example, she won't tell me where she is but she will post a picture on FB to let me know. Or she saw a movie and instead of just in passing telling me she saw a movie, she will "Like" the movie's page She will "Like" a quote to send a message to me. The odd thing is when I "like" a quote she thinks I'm sending a message to her.  It is all about her.

Somewhere in all this is a very good person [hard to believe], compassionate, giving and loving. I'm glad I got to know the real her before I became her trigger. She comes back to her real self and then starts BPD traits shortly. And no one but me knows about it. I wish someday that if this friendship ends, my parting gift to her is to tell her to seek treatment... .   if not for her, for her kids and the next friend who gets close to her.