Needing to Decide

[myself]

I need to decide if I am going to continue being in the relationship or not. I always choose to stay, and always end up being hurt. I've worked on myself, bettered myself, and it's helped. But the patterns keep spinning and she comes and goes, casting the blame while not taking responsisbility for her actions. Serious discussions are off the table because she won't be a part of them, so no real progress is made between us as far as dealing with the issues that come between us. I can only do so much from my side before running into the walls she puts up. I love her and keep trying, but am feeling wiped out. Like there's something better out there, something less stressful and frustrating at least. I don't chase after her when she leaves now, but do get sad and resentful that she's gone. It's not a healthy relationship this way, and it always ends up this way. It's hard to take her at her word, to count on plans that were made being followed through with, and even though I've learned about projection and not taking things so personally, some of the hurtful things she says do get in there and affect my self esteem. I feel I have to either resign myself to accepting that this is how it's going to be, or get out of the relationship and accept that for what it will be. Being without her seems like such a loss, but being with her seems like questionable gains. I'm balanced between two choices that are both right and wrong, feeling alone in this decision. I lean towards staying, but time is running out.

[elessar]

myself, feels like you wrote my own feelings. sorry to hear this buddy. is this diagnosed or undiagnosed? if she is not diagnosed and not getting treatment, you do know these patterns will repeat till the end of time, right... .  

it is hard to let go. i know. after all the $%^& we have taken, dealt with them patiently for so many years. it is hard. maybe the least you can do it draw boundaries. i still love my ex... .   i think i do... .   but i am trying not to be obsessed with her either. i have accepted that there are better things out there. and if something good comes along, i won't be begging my ex to get back together. it would be her loss (unless she gets married before that... .   )

i would say stay if she's making an effort to work on her issues. but if she's not... .   the cycle will never end. we all know that.

[patientandclear]

Hi, Myself.   

As you know, I can completely relate to the feeling that all the choices are bad ones.  You're right that even if your "practice" of being in this r/s is impeccable, there are always going to be inherent limits & there are also always going to be hurts, no matter how much you think you are prepared for them.  She will change her mind suddenly about how she feels and what she wants.  She will often treat you like an enemy, someone to be guarded against, when you are in fact a friend & someone she can trust.  I feel like that pattern intensifies over time, maybe because they have deposited more and more things they feel betrayed by in their memory bank.  Holding on to her will feel to her like a betrayal, letting her go will feel to her like a betrayal.  You are cast in the part of someone who disappoints and betrays her.  So inevitably, you will, even if requires projection for her to be able to tell herself that story.

Yet I know it is so frustrating and just so hard to accept.  I was reading some old emails from when my ex and I were first together, before anything went wrong.  He was so sincere, so hopeful, so reassuring, so excited.  Knowing that he meant all of that at the time, it is so hard to accept that we can never find our way back there -- that everything is now compromised by how well I know him, how much shame he feels, how he feels push impulses and I ask why or question what he chooses to do, and he has no good answer.  Our connection makes him feel bad -- a lot -- because he's messed up what was so good between us and now he keeps doing it.  I now really understand what 2010 and others mean when they say that we are their triggers.  I hate conceding that there is not much I can do about that.  My love for him, my understanding of him, my willingness to stand by him but also to let him go if he needs to go ... .   none of it fixes that.  He's afraid of me, even though I've done almost nothing, ever, to warrant that.

In a way I suppose he did me a favor by actually, physically, leaving town, and now by seemingly ending all forms of contact after I questioned his sudden, seemingly random decision to move to another city.  It would be even harder to walk away myself, I think.

You are seeing what this is and can be with clear eyes, Myself.  It hurts and it doesn't fix itself.  It should be better and different, but it isn't, despite all your efforts and your clear understanding & self-discipline.  The good news is, I think you are being completely realistic about the choices on offer.  You are not pretending that there isn't hurt in the offing either way.

I have a lot of confidence that you will make a good decision.  Believe in what you decide, when you do decide; it will be an excellent decision, because it is yours.  Give whatever effort you need to give to be sure you won't regret not having tried XYZPDQ.  But back your own decision, whatever it ends up being, as a loving act toward yourself and your partner.

[Phoenix.Rising]

She will change her mind suddenly about how she feels and what she wants.  She will often treat you like an enemy, someone to be guarded against, when you are in fact a friend & someone she can trust.  I feel like that pattern intensifies over time, maybe because they have deposited more and more things they feel betrayed by in their memory bank.  Holding on to her will feel to her like a betrayal, letting her go will feel to her like a betrayal.  You are cast in the part of someone who disappoints and betrays her.  So inevitably, you will, even if requires projection for her to be able to tell herself that story.

I believe P&C's words are the truth of the situation with these relationships, unless some serious work is done on changing the overall dynamics.  I understand why this decision is so difficult.  I understand if you decide to stay.  I understand if you decide to leave.  I don't think either choice is right or wrong.  Both choices are worthy of my respect.  Both are difficult.

My question to you is, are you willing to change yourself to the degree where her casting blame will not interfere with your self-worth?  Are you able to practice radical acceptance with her?  Are you able to be her emotional caregiver?  I think this is what it takes to succeed in these relationships.  You have to detach emotionally to a large extent. 

In my situation, I realized I was not in a place to offer this to her.  I was too entrenched in my own codependency and unhealthy addiction.  And she was not willing to work on herself.  I believe it is still possible in some cases to be successful in staying even if the pwBPD does not want to change, but you have to implement very strong boundaries and practice mindfulness.  She will not give you the consistency you crave.  You know this.  Are you willing to change YOU to the extent necessary to be with her?  Are you able to stay without being a trigger for her or enabling her?  This is not about her, it's about you.  I support you in whatever you decide.

[seeking balance]

Hey Myself,

I was wondering what you were up to.

At the end of the day, Phoenix.Rising hit the nail on the head... .   radical acceptance is the key.

The quotes below are very real and very much the relationship you have - that's ok, just accept it for what it is and take care of you in the parts in between.

the patterns keep spinning and she comes and goes, casting the blame while not taking responsisbility for her actions.

Serious discussions are off the table because she won't be a part of them, so no real progress is made between us as far as dealing with the issues that come between us. 

I love her and keep trying, but am feeling wiped out.

what are you doing besides here to recharge your batteries?  do you have hobbies, friends, etc?

Like there's something better out there, something less stressful and frustrating at least.

not really relevant since you are in love with her, right?

I don't chase after her when she leaves now,

but do get sad and resentful that she's gone.

that is normal, how do you go about processing this?

It's not a healthy relationship this way, and it always ends up this way.

nope, neither party would be considered the poster child for healthy... .   but, so what?

this is your relationship - the good with the bad... .   how can you learn to accept her bad parts because all of it is her and all of it is you.

I feel I have to either resign myself to accepting that this is how it's going to be, or get out of the relationship and accept that for what it will be.

BINGO - this is it... .   there have to be some good or you wouldn't go back, right?  Maybe you need to focus on the good stuff?

Being without her seems like such a loss, but being with her seems like questionable gains. I'm balanced between two choices that are both right and wrong, feeling alone in this decision. I lean towards staying, but time is running out.

Why is time running out?

[myself]

Thanks for the replies, you all make sense and it's helpful to read through your comments. I've been working on accepting things as they are, to not feel such despair when she's gone as I used to, to not take things so personally. It seems like time is running out because life only goes so far, and as much as I love her I don't know how long I can continue taking two steps forwards with her and then almost two steps back.

I do focus on the good stuff, and that is what has kept me from ending it with her, because we do share the best connection and good times I've ever known. When we're together and getting along, that is. When she keeps herself away, and won't talk, is when things fall apart the most for me. I've learned to accept that she leaves, and that the more calm I am the sooner she may return. Taking care of my own pains, even those caused by her. We often talk about, plan, and work towards being together more. The sudden erasing of that goes against my heart. Keeping my emotions in check so much goes against who I really am. She says she meets me more than halfway but is also the one who comes and goes, there's no consistency that can be counted on.

When she blames me, I know what's mine and what's not. I do my best to not take on what's not. She's the one who holds me to it, who holds the grudges, who disappears. We all know this story. It comes down to how much can I take, how much should I take, and why even have to consider any of that if it really is a healthy relationship I should be staying in. I keep staying. She keeps leaving, then coming back, then leaving. We're supposed to be loving partners, living together, being a family. When we are, we really are. When we're not, it undercuts everything we've shared.

A detached relationship isn't what I'm looking for. I'd rather be close.

[seeking balance]

A detached relationship isn't what I'm looking for. I'd rather be close.

Well, this is it with an untreated pwBPD - when you have ended it in the past, why did you go back?

What is different in you this time if you do end it?

[myself]

A detached relationship isn't what I'm looking for. I'd rather be close.

Well, this is it with an untreated pwBPD - when you have ended it in the past, why did you go back?

What is different in you this time if you do end it?

When we were apart in the past, I went back because of the love we share and the chance to make a life with someone I'm interested in, deeply care about, already went through so much with, and to follow through with promises. I've rarely been the one to walk away, but have had to do my best having been walked away from.

What would be different this time is more time has gone by, more good and bad times have been shared, the close times have seemed the closest we have ever felt, and I put that much more of my heart into it. I don't want to let her down or lose her. If I am the one who says it's over between us, it will really be over. So I need to decide if that is what I need to do. I understand I am her trigger. I find that she becomes my trigger, too. For the best of me and also the not so best. I'm pretty sure she's not going to change. I can see how the changes I am going through are changing me, my perspectives on my options, my ability to deal with my emotions going through whichever choice I make. If she wouldn't leave, and would face things while staying, things could work out well. The possibility is right there. We've all seen it. As it is, I have to accept that whether I stay or leave, there's pain, there's growth, there's love.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I find that she becomes my trigger, too. For the best of me and also the not so best.

This is one of the reasons I personally need to stay away from her.  She became a trigger for a side of me that I didn't like.  That is not to say that this was her fault.  I am responsible for my actions.

The dynamics had become such that there were forces at play greater than us, I believe.  That's not to say they were insurmountable, but very close to it.  Whatever it was had become more than I could handle, so I had to remove myself from the situation to get back to myself, if that makes sense.  I am still working on that.  If it's any consolation, I am much more at peace with myself now.  I do not know the dynamics of your situation, but they sound similar to what I was experiencing.  Why are you in anguish?  What do you need to change? 

[maria1]

Hi Myself

You've been in my thoughts, wondering how it was going. I'm so sorry there's pain for you right now.

If she wouldn't leave, and would face things while staying, things could work out well. The possibility is right there.

It isn't possible though. She will keep on leaving. There is no possibility of change in her.

I can't help thinking you are still chasing a hope of something that isn't possible. She keeps leaving and when she leaves it tears you up right?

Can you consider a future where she keeps leaving and you find a way of coping with that?

[myself]

Can you consider a future where she keeps leaving and you find a way of coping with that?

That's what I've been working on, in the present, doing better than I used to but it still causes a lot of upset. I expect the good times to stay good, and when she leaves I'm left feeling there isn't really a relationship (especially with her being so mean about it), so a lot of the good just gets washed down the drain. This is where the anguish that PhoenixRising mentions comes in. It's hard on me to get close with her again and she withdraws it all. Lately it's been more silent treatment from her, which usually leads to her anger being further unleashed so that's probably coming sometime soon. I saw my T this week and it seems I'm doing things as well as I can, but I don't know, I need to make a real choice for my life. The one I've been making, to stay together, seems to end up hurting more than helping. I don't want to leave her but may have to. Which sounds funny since she's already gone, and you're right, she's going to just keep leaving/coming back/leaving. I see that if any real change is going to occur, it will be up to me to do so. I wish my efforts would wind up with us working out our problems and having a healthy relationship but the odds are it won't happen because she doesn't put enough into this and I can't do it all alone. I've tried.

[maria1]

I'm sorry Myself 

It's more than just 60 / 40 odds against it working from what you say. Which means you have to weigh up the hurt against the good and I have to say it sounds like you are already feeling the pain is outweighing the good stuff.

And you know you will have to go through more pain to come out the other side too. I expect that feels unthinkable now with all you are already feeling.

I hope you stay with us whatever you decide. I know I am not just speaking for me when I say we care very much about you. You deserve a happy life 

[maria1]

Ps if you decide to leave I think you could maybe think about NC if you can. At least consider it as an option. You need space to look after you and you don't ever seem to really allow yourself that. Even when you decide to leave you end up putting her needs over yours because you love her. I think you need to love yourself more this time.

[turtle]

I always choose to stay, and always end up being hurt.

It's not a healthy relationship this way, and it always ends up this way.

myself  

I'm sorry you are feeling in limbo.  You've been in this place for a long time.  These statements above are definitive. You are using the word "always."  ALWAYS means EVERY time... .   not once in awhile... .   not occasionally... .   not sometimes.

You say you are leaning toward staying yet you say it ALWAYS turns out the same.

I wish the best for you in your decision.  Limbo is paralyzing and that paralysis creeps into every area of your life.

You've grown, you've changed and perhaps - as painful as it is, you have now outgrown her.  What used to be acceptable to you, isn't acceptable anymore.  And really... .   should her behavior be acceptable to you?

As always... .   no matter what you decide, we are here for you!

turtle

[OTH]

^^^

Turtle!

There is an article on relationship recycling on this site. I know you have read it. Do you see yourself in it? If not. Why not?

[Cardinals in Flight]

Hello Myself!

I've been reading here and have been wanting to write to you for a few days now, just having trouble finding the words.  Because? I find myself (that would be me  ) in your shoes and wondering if I'm going to keep up this 'unship' that I've had with my BPDXg/f for over a year.  Make no mistake, I love her, she's a wonderful person with awesome traits. So am I.

I can't quite use the word "always" at this point, but I can say that, more often I'm finding me to be in the situation of needing a supportive, empathetic partner, and I'm without. She is, as has been described, empty.  She was not always empty, she made efforts to be an equal partner. There is no physical intimacy, but there definitely remains romantic undertones.  I've made no secret of how I feel for her.  I know she loves me too, the best she can.

I'm not clingy, I'm not needy, I'm just human, and I have real, reasonable, human needs and I'm continually finding them to be unmet.

She knows that I've grown since our romantic breakup.  I speak up, I state my needs and then say how I'm going to get them met.  If it's noticed? she doesn't say, but I am aware that she notices that I no longer accept everything she does or says without speaking up. 

Just wanted you to know that you aren't alone, or anyone else going through this limbo, or indecisive time.  I keep thinking there will be some event, a time that I will know in my gut that it's the time I need to completely sever the tie that binds.

Keep on, keeping on... .  

CiF

[myself]

Thank you all for the truths you've shared.

I've been thinking it through and through and through.

I see I'm probably going to have to let go.

What's really 'always' is that I deserve much better.

I keep waiting for her to make the choice.

The one to run towards and not away.

I need to make my own decisions.

Adjust the focus back to myself.

This is my life. I've been sharing it.

[maria1]

Thank you all for the truths you've shared.

I've been thinking it through and through and through.

I see I'm probably going to have to let go.

What's really 'always' is that I deserve much better.

I keep waiting for her to make the choice.

The one to run towards and not away.

I need to make my own decisions.

Adjust the focus back to myself.

This is my life. I've been sharing it.

Myself

These are very wise words. You are a very wise man. We are here for you. Please give yourself the best chance with this. Please put yourself first. This is going to be tough but we are here for you   

[myself]

Thank you maria very much. Your support means a lot.   and  for you, too.

Things have not been going well and that's mostly due to me not making the decision to really help myself find the best way through this. I still choose to stay with her, but she's saying she's ready to jump ship and go find someone else. Very negative. We've been in this place many times. Part of me holds onto hope, but most of me is worn down by it, needing to feel and see some real positive changes between us. Some stability.

It's a choice between being hurt being with her (if she can actually stay with me) and being hurt without her, should I be the one to decide that. I know how much I've personally put into this, how good of a person I've been with her. Part of me wants her to make the choice to leave (if that's what happens) to show that I was the one who stayed. To show her and myself. Does that make sense? It's such a serious matter, I can't give up. I tried. I walked as far away from this as I could, in my own ways, and end up back at the same crossroads again. I'm really struggling right now as far as what to do and how to do it. Reasoning doesn't work, being kind and calm doesn't work, taking most of it on myself doesn't work. It's supposed to be a partnership but I'm alone here. I don't even really know what it is she wants from me anymore, what her expectations are, her needs, her fears. They've all been mixed up and flipped around, it's so confusing. Without real communication between us how can we ever get to the bottom of this? If I'm the one who walks away, where do I walk to? It's leaving someone I'm in love with. Hard to do.

[maria1]

It sounds very much as though what you are wanting and needing right now is a rational and reasoned response from a person who is disordered. There's the crux. You love somebody who does not think and respond in the same way as you or I do.

So whatever you do it won't work. That's it. Whatever you do with this disorder it won't make her respond in the way you want her to. She is telling you she is ready to jump ship and find somebody else. That isn't loving you, not a partnership. That must hurt hugely.

You keep expecting it to be different. As you say without real communication between you how can you ever get to the bottom of this? You know the answer.

Why is leaving someone you are in love with so hard to do even when they are hurting you?

[myself]

I got into the habit of thinking things would change because at times they've seemed like they have changed. Or that I've changed and then expect the rest of it to also fall into better place. Which seems normal, but far from the reality. At times, I feel as if I'm the one with too many problems to have a relationship that lasts.

Being a trigger for each other precludes a constant state of being together. It's as if the better I get at dealing with this, the worse it becomes, as it's more for her to fight against. Which confounds me, knocks me off my balance, and adds more pains for both of us. The pain would be worth it to come out the other side intact, together.

She left, and it wrecked me. If I leave, it's a different kind of wreckage, including how she'll take me doing that. I know it will hurt her deeply, and she'll stay gone. Trust and friendship will completely vanish. That's a hard choice to make.

[maria1]

I suppose it will be a final choice. I get what you are saying. You love her, you don't want to hurt her. Hurting her is the last thing you want to do. So you try and stay in it but that doesn't seem to be the answer either.

People with attachment disorders cannot be in an intimate relationship. She cannot give you what you want from a relationship because she cannot do intimacy. the disorder will not let her. You cannot fix the disorder. So you cannot stay because she doesn't want you to. But she doesn't want you to leave. Push/ pull. Engulf/ abandon. No choice for you.

You've taken on board everything and more Myself. You've worked on you, worked on you and her, worked on her. There is nothing else to be done. The only choice now is to put you first. Because putting her first is destroying you in my opinion, slowly but surely, little by little. Over and over again.

I'm so sorry I can't say anything more positive. i really wish i could. The positive is that you can find yourself again. Just your screen name speaks volumes. My screen name is my mother's name. She died never having lived her life the way she wanted it to be. She was just about to begin finding herself when she became ill and died at the age of 45. Maybe that strength and that lesson is what will stop me from ever recycling with my ex. I hope so.

I see and feel strength in you Myself. You have SO much strength and clarity of thought. You have so much love to give. I wish I knew the best way we could help you right now x

[benny2]

Myself, when you say that you are getting broken down from it, that is exactly what is happening to me. I also have been going through the same thing. We lived together for awhile, it was a nightmare. Since then it has been this constant push/pull ordeal, never knowing where things stand because you do not dare bring up the subject and even if you do, you probably will not get an honest answer. I keep hoping also that things will change, but deep down I know it will just continue to be this constant back and forth thing. Like you said and I have said it many times, 2 steps forward and 2 behind. I have tried ending it, and keep giving it another chance even though I know we are going to end up in the same dark hole. Giving it up for good is so hard because #1 you love them, #2 they give you reason to believe there is hope, #3 they have been a part of your life for a long time. I have weighed the hurt between being with him and being without him and I think for myself being without him is much harder, but I am also getting worn out by it and think maybe the weight is shifting. I have been turning things around a bit by distancing myself. Not asking any questions pertaining to our relationship, not telling him I love him, kind of giving him the impression that I can take it or leave it. It has not only been helping me, but I think he sees it and it has him thinking. Yes it will hurt if he leaves again, but not nearly as much anymore. You can only be beaten down so many times before you just throw in the towel.

[OTH]

At times, I feel as if I'm the one with too many problems to have a relationship that lasts. 

We all seek our own level. I do believe this. I understand my issues far better now. Hopefully I will do better. I took over a year off and dated for a bit. I've taken another year off and have just been focusing on non romantic relationships. Change is hard. Some off my mistaken thinking is so obvious it makes me cringe.  

[maria1]

At times, I feel as if I'm the one with too many problems to have a relationship that lasts. 

We all seek our own level. I do believe this. I understand my issues far better now. Hopefully I will do better. I took over a year off and dated for a bit. I've taken another year off and have just been focusing on non romantic relationships. Change is hard. Some off my mistaken thinking is so obvious it makes me cringe.  

Nicely said OTH. I think a bit of dating is helping me see my issues in hard focus. That doesn't mean it makes it all your fault though Myself. Don't swing this all back onto you.

[Phoenix.Rising]

My suggestion to you is to Let Go. 

She told you what she wants: "jump ship and go find someone else".  I say, give it to her.

I understand you are hurting.  So is she.  I'm sorry, Myself.  There's a saying about beating a dead horse.  Does this apply?