Inability to stay in relationship

[MaybeSo]

My ex who I have been having limited contact with, though moving closer in last few months (intimacy, yikes)  has been going to his dark side in the last month,  depressed, antsy, out of sorts, unhappy at work, morose, snarky... .   and admitted last night he wants to sell his business and just travel on his motorcyle for five years, and admitted he wants to see other people (though has awareness that this is just a pattern he has done over and over and dating doesn't solve his problems).  So I said I support him in whatever he needs to do.  

He then wanted to share with me in what ways he has grown dissatisfied with me (so I can know what his needs are and work better to meet them)  and he is saying he can't make a commitment to me because

1) I didn't get the new  timing belt on my car adjusted in a timely fashion

2) he is irritated that I am taking care of some last minute tax paperwork for my ederly mother having recieved a call from her tax preparer on Friday (I was suppose to know or anticipate my help would be needed prior to the call somehow?)

3) and he's bored and stagnant because I'm not efferevescent enough for him.

4) Oh, and he is very disappointed in how I handled my marriage settlement agreement, I negotiated a 50k settlement down  from 70k settlement with my ex husband (posted about his here in a thread about a month ago) and thinks it was a loser move on my part to not insist on the 70k settlement.

He said this stuff is important to him and it bothers him deeply. He wants more (than me).  So I said "go get more, then.  My experience for years now is that you always become dissatisfied with me w/n 6 to 9 months and when we become close, so go find "more" somewhere else. You will not find it here.  I cannot make you happy, I support you in finding your own happiness."  I said I  support you in your efforts, whatever makes you happy, sweetheart.  But I've jumped over many, many hoops in my years knowing you in an effort to make you feel more sastified with me long term, and sooner or later, it's just something else. So, Rock on with your bad self, sweetheart, but I'm not going to try to talk you out of doing what you need to do.  Go find more somewhere else."  

He felt unheard of course, he wants me to hear his complaints about me so I can try harder to meet his needs.  He feels I don't do this.  I have done this in the past, but  it just hasn't fixed anything, and I won't keep picking up the same rope.    

I got sucked into that hurt and angry, fearful place for about 10 minutes, the one where I swing between finding his issues with me to be ridiculously nitpicky, mean spirited red herrings... .   and my own childhood fears that he is right, no one will ever really love me because I am not good enough.

I asked him incredulously... .   are you really implying or saying that you could love me and commit to me if I just had my timing belt adjusted sooner? THAT is what you turly feel prevents you from making a commitment to me? It's THAT important to you that you would ruin an otherwise perfectly good relationship over it?  He said YES!  And I said I'm sorry sweety but I think that is  just BULL!  BULL!  And how sad that this would be what keeps you from being content in a relationship.  This is not about a timing belt! This is about two people that cannot and will not stay in relationship, and will not and cannot stay in intimacy.  

He cannot stay in relationshp with me, even after 8 years of therapy.  And I clearly continue to have my own issues with intimacy in continuing to associate with men who cannot and will not show up and stay connected in relationship with me.  My dad couldn't (nice guy, but always leaves) and my ex-husband couldn't (nice guy but too busy rescuing the entire world and cultivating his image as a professional martry to even really know me) and neither can my ex who has BPD and always needs to exit once we get close and settle into something good that resembles a normal relationship.

This is NOT about a timing belt. Such bull!

Again, not surprised.  

What would it even be like to date someone who actually had the capacity to stay in relationship with me?   Would it just freak me out?  Would I move away from such a person because it would seem so weird if they kept showing up emotionally instead of doing the whole push pull? Could I even do it or is it just so forigen to me at this point... .   and these emotinally unavailable guys are so known to me,  like dear old dad, they are just such well known comfortable shoes that I slip into... .   and I have so much expertise in navagating THESE waters,  that I  wonder if I would even know what to do with someone who actually could show up emotionally and stay in relationship?  I wonder.  I seem to gravitate to these men who are this exact way; they all have differnt styles on the surface but really, it's all just about not being  able to stay in relationship or intimacy.  So, I guess I don't know how to, either?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Maryiscontrary]

Yes, this does seem like bull ~. Like I have said elsewhere, I have to be a btch with very strong boundaries because of the trauma I have been through. I would say, don't let the door hit ya in the butt.

Come on... .   what BS... .   timing belt? He sounds like a baby looking for... .   mommy?

Maybe the real problem with you is the same problem I had... .   didn't thow the louts out fast enough. Rather than an undefined character flaw you think you have, maybe it's the churn and burn rate has to be increased. What do you think?

[Phoenix.Rising]

MaybeSo,  Your post resonated with me.  After I would experience intimacy with my ex, she would inevitably find what seemed to be mostly insignificant reasons to push away.  At first, she would not even tell me what it was that was bothering her, but when I pressed her later on, she would say things that, in my mind, and I think most healthy people's minds, would not be deal breakers in serious relationships.  Most of them were things that could be changed or modified or accepted as differences, and so on. 

The point it that I think they find anything to justify them pushing away.  No, it does not make sense what he said about your timing belt.  But if it was not the timing belt, it would have been something else.  It is frustrating as all get out.  But I applaud you for sticking up for yourself and telling him you couldn't offer him that.  That is true growth.  I don't see this as being about you or anything you need to change about yourself. 

If you jump through that hoop, there will be another one, and another one, and another one... .

I'm sorry you are hurting, but good job on being good to you!  Your courage gives me strength and hope.

[MaybeSo]

I have to be a btch with very strong boundaries because of the trauma I have been through

If I made better choices in partner selection (easier said than done, cause I'm obviously accustomed to the same old same old emotionally unavailable guy)... .   would I really need to have my dukes up all the time?  I don't think I'd have to have my dukes up if I chose better, right?

If you jump through that hoop, there will be another one, and another one, and another one... .

Yes, I agree... .   it's sticky though because I am a person who wants to 'work on' relationship if it's really working on relationship... .   but I don't want to just keep chasing the unattainable, which with this man, I feel that's what it's about.  I also think he was feeling shame about his darkness, and he couldn't just leave with my support of him finding his own happiness, he had to throw in how I have failed him, with the implication being if I'd not failed him in these ways... .   he'd be a happier man and willing to have me in his life.  So, he felt shame, and he had to make sure I was also struggling with shame feelings coming up in me before he left... .   and I started to go there, then checked myself.  I don't have to meet his every need for him to be happy, it's not even possible, and I don't want the job.

[hithere]

and these emotinally unavailable guys

I think you are minimizing what is wrong with him, whether it is BPD or some other issues - from  your description this ex is big-time trouble.

I don't think I'd have to have my dukes up if I chose better, right?

No you wouldn't... .   in a normal relationship you but your love and energy towards making a good life and enjoying your time together.  When I think of all the time I wasted on stupid arguments and overall negative experiences with my BPDex it is sad.

Are you in therapy? Perhaps you could get to the root of these bad decisions by talking to a professional.

[Maryiscontrary]

I am not religious at all, but Cloud and Townsend have a nice list for what makes a safe person. They are experts is the field of boundaries, so the religious overtone does not bother me personally.

Also the "hoops" thing Phoenix is talking about. This is extremely important.


"When John (Townsend) and I asked people to describe a “safe person” to us, they gave us these descriptions:

A person who accepts me just like I am.

A person who loves me no matter how I am being or what I do.

A person whose influence develops my ability to love and be responsible.

Someone who creates love and good works within me.

Someone who gives me an opportunity to grow.

Someone who increases love within me.

Someone I can be myself around.

Someone who allows me to be on the outside what I am on the inside.

Someone who helps me to deny myself for others and God.

Someone who allows me to become the “me” that God intended.

Someone who helps me become the “me” God sees in me.

Someone whose life touches mine and leaves me better for it.

Someone who touches my life and draws me closer to who God created me to be.

Someone who helps me be like Christ.

Someone who helps me love others more."

[heartandwhole]

What would it even be like to date someone who actually had the capacity to stay in relationship with me?   Would it just freak me out?  Would I move away from such a person because it would seem so weird if they kept showing up emotionally instead of doing the whole push pull? Could I even do it or is it just so forigen to me at this point... .   and these emotinally unavailable guys are so known to me,  like dear old dad, they are just such well known comfortable shoes that I slip into... .   and I have so much expertise in navagating THESE waters,  that I  wonder if I would even know what to do with someone who actually could show up emotionally and stay in relationship?  I wonder.  I seem to gravitate to these men who are this exact way; they all have differnt styles on the surface but really, it's all just about not being  able to stay in relationship or intimacy.  So, I guess I don't know how to, either?

This resonates so much with me, too, MaybeSo!  One of my fears is that I've become too adept at jumping through hoops and working so hard at relationships, that if a truly available man came along now, I wouldn't know what to do with him.  On the other hand, I think I've decided that at this point I'd rather be alone than a hoop-jumper and a bull___ taker - can't do it anymore!

I agree with PhoenixRising, if it hadn't been the timing belt (huh?) it would have been something else.  And it will probably be something else later, unfortunately.  Good for you for standing up for yourself.    I think we sometimes forget that we have so much to offer, just by being ourselves.  I mean, there are people out there who would love to be part of our lives, and present for us,  just because we are. 

At least that's what my T says    I'm still working on accepting that... .  

[MaybeSo]

Are you in therapy? Perhaps you could get to the root of these bad decisions by talking to a professional.

Ha HA HA!

This made me chuckle... .  

yes yes... .   I've have a psychologist I've worked with for about 8 years now myself!  This stuff, it doesn't just go away fast. And,  It is really only through this very challenging r/s with my ex with BPD and N traits... .   that I've really seen in all its glory how my own codepenence and lack of self worth and dysfunction has played out in my life.  I also do not mean to imply the men in my life have offered nothing of good or substance in my life,  or that the men I have chosen to love have been all bad... .   it's so so much more complex than that, each man I mentioned,  even with all his own issues,  has certainly brought things of great value to my life that I am grateful for.  But they aren't really able to be present in relationship.

I have a rich and full life, I do not feel like a victim, but I am just still learning.

I will probably never ever really solve all of this in one lifetime.  And that's ok.  

I'm not minimizing what is wrong with him, I have a pretty sound understanding of his issues; and I'm understanding my own more and more all the time, too.  I just don't have time to write all of it... .   I've been on here for about 5 years now, so many readers have seen so much of my story already anyway, these days I try to keep it short if I can, just the readers digest version, you know.  I geuss that could seem like minimizing his issues.  He's not really big-time trouble to me anymore (he was in the beginning because I didn't understand what he was doing and took his stuff peronsally and was very injured for a long time)  but, these days,  I take care of myself and know who he is,  and he is definately not able to stay in relationship or in intimacy.  None of it surprises me anymore.

On the other hand, I think I've decided that at this point I'd rather be alone than a hoop-jumper and a bull___ taker - can't do it anymore!

Me too!

These lists (below)  are always interesting to me when I think about it from the perspective of the other; in this case, I certainly do not offer all of these things to MY ex w/ BPD.  So, I'm really not a safe person for him, either.

A person who accepts me just like I am. (I accept who he is, but I don't tolerate some of his stuff... .   and I don't think he feels accepted for who he is on some level, otherwise, why can't I just accept he has issues with me and leave it at that? )  

A person who loves me no matter how I am being or what I do. (I dont' do this for my ex; he gets nasty and mean and starts wanting to see other women, and I show him the door, so I do not offer him this degree of acceptance, so I am not really a safe person for him!)

A person whose influence develops my ability to love and be responsible. (He is wanting me to be more responsbile, that's why he was upset about the car and stuff, he sees those things as me not taking responsbility for myself)

Someone who creates love and good works within me.

Someone who gives me an opportunity to grow.

Someone who increases love within me.

Someone I can be myself around.

Someone who allows me to be on the outside what I am on the inside. (I don't think I always make this easy for him... .   )

Someone who helps me to deny myself for others and God.

Someone who allows me to become the “me” that God intended.

Someone who helps me become the “me” God sees in me.

Someone whose life touches mine and leaves me better for it. (I guess we have both done this for eachother in a way)

Someone who touches my life and draws me closer to who God created me to be.

Someone who helps me be like Christ.

Someone who helps me love others more."

     

[seeking balance]

What would it even be like to date someone who actually had the capacity to stay in relationship with me?   Would it just freak me out?  Would I move away from such a person because it would seem so weird if they kept showing up emotionally instead of doing the whole push pull? Could I even do it or is it just so forigen to me at this point... .   and these emotinally unavailable guys are so known to me,  like dear old dad, they are just such well known comfortable shoes that I slip into... .   and I have so much expertise in navagating THESE waters,  that I  wonder if I would even know what to do with someone who actually could show up emotionally and stay in relationship?  I wonder.  I seem to gravitate to these men who are this exact way; they all have differnt styles on the surface but really, it's all just about not being  able to stay in relationship or intimacy.  So, I guess I don't know how to, either?

Maybe you don't really want a stable relationship - I mean, that's ok if you don't... .   is it possible these relationships make you happy?

You have been in T a long time, so you know all the information on self worth and accepting less than... .   it is all true.  You also know how to change it, doing it is difficult indeed.

If I take your words at face value - you know what this relationship is, you don't feel like a victim and you are likely not safe for him either.

IF all this is true - what's wrong this being what it is? 

[MaybeSo]

IF all this is true - what's wrong this being what it is?  

Well, It is just disapointing I guess. That we can't be in relationship after all these years, and that I've not managed to be in a stable r/s after all these years.

Like many on here, I feel the desire to be in a long term stable relationship, but what I have manifested in my life is not that.

Maybe I just don't know how or don't want it badly enough, maybe I really am no better at it (intimacy) than he is.  Maybe a more secure person would just hear his concerns and agree, oh, yea, I could be more responsbile about those things, yup.  

I'm not manifesting what it is I say I want (a stable relationship)... .   so, maybe I really don't want it nearly as much as I 'think' I do.  If I don't really want a stable relationship... .   I guess I've done a very good job at meeting my own needs, cause this isn't really a stable relationship and never has been.  

I geuss there is nothing wrong with it, it's just disapointing. And if I really don't want a stable r/s I wish that it was more in my awareness so that it felt in alignment with what I manifest... .   I still have longings for a stable relationship, if I don't really want that, I would like the longings for that to abate.  If I don't really want a stable relationship, why do I long for it?  

[seeking balance]

MaybeSo,

I have a deep respect for you - the work you do on these boards.

So, do you want to kinda vent and work through this on your own or do you want a little SB tough love?  Your call and I respect whichever you choose.

Peace,

SB

[MaybeSo]

Seeking Balance, yes, I am open to some tough love, I suspect it may mirror much of my own thoughts... .  

I get I choose this.  I get it's a repition compulsion.  I get I can choose to do what I want.  I see I do get something out of this less than stable relationships.  I suspect I may not be all that avialable for intimacy, either... .  

So, given that... .   fire away... .  

[Maryiscontrary]

I second that. I am spending more time here than anywhere ever, because I am practicing to get this monkey off my back. I mean, the life I have attempted to cultivate is basically a self designed sanitarium. Very few moving parts. Seriously, as much as I had lost in these sat few years, it was either do the Henry david Thoreau thing, or off myself via carbon monoxide, which I could arrange with surgical precision. I had to get rid of the nightmares. I have to work on the paranoia. I had to stop smoking. And I had to stop the desire to put a gun to my head. And I had to stop the desire to put a gun to other peoples head. Yes, pacifist bohemian homicidal me.

I absolutely cannot take any more sh!t in my relationships. What is it going to take for you? Do want to end up like I did? Do you really, really want to end up dissociating 12 hours a day? Like Gina Louise, my ex was a gifted man who became very, very dangerous because he did NOTdeal will HIS trauma. Do you want to push yourself until you snap?

Let me tell you A MAN celebrates his woman,  and works hard to make day to day life for her a little less crappy. Any other man is a baby looking for mommy SOB. you are just one giant nipple to these louts. And just to be fair... .   it is the same the other way around when nice guys get jacked around.

[Phoenix.Rising]

This: 

I don't have to meet his every need for him to be happy, it's not even possible, and I don't want the job.

It's also interesting what you said about maybe not even wanting a 'healthy' relationship.  These patterns are very ingrained in me as well.  I have been in recovery circles for over 20 years, but really just started addressing the relationship end of it in the past several years.  Yes, it almost seems insurmountable to change at times. 

Sometimes I wonder if I will end up trying to partner with someone with similar issues again, but approach it from a different angle.  I really don't want that, though.  Gosh, I really don't.  The push-pull is just too much. 

The characteristics of a healthy relationship listed on from Maryiscontrary's post sound very nice to me, especially the part about accepting each other for who we are.  I don't want to have to pretend to be something I am not and continue to bend and contort myself to please someone.  It was killing me.

Best of luck to you, MaybeSo.   

[seeking balance]

I am open to some tough love, I suspect it may mirror much of my own thoughts... .  

I get I choose this.  I get it's a repition compulsion.  I get I can choose to do what I want.  I see I do get something out of this less than stable relationships.  I suspect I may not be all that avialable for intimacy, either... .  

So, given that... .   fire away... .  

Oh, I have no doubt your thoughts are correct - my question to you is this... .   are you willing to risk completely being alone and rebuilding yourself without a backup relationship and not settling to achieve your goal of a stable relationship?

The BPD relationship - nope, you likely don't really get to have him as your stability - you know the disorder, you know the recovery process, I think you have read The Buddha and the Borderline which shows first hand the push/pull even with being considered recovered.

Now, I am going to ask you this - does he know you are 100% pot committed and want a real, stable relationship?  These exact words, that you are willing to do the hard, he do DBT, the family DBT - all of it?  If you have not put yourself out there to let him choose all of this, well - maybe it is worth the risk... .   I dunno.

I can only give you what I am experiencing and how I am somewhat imperfectly walking down this path.  My good friend made a joke a few years ago when someone asked my type - "crazy, arrogant, smart".  GULP - the think is, that is my type I am initially attracted too.  Then, I justify and look for only the good parts and am shocked when it doesn't work out!

Over the last year, I have dated & ended things after about 6 weeks with 2 of these.  Yep, I was attracted, yep, I started to see the patterns and it was gut wrenching for me to pull away when nothing bad had happened yet.  I mean, I doubted myself (thank God for my best friend processing over and over with me), and the loneliness felt from ending them - not really even like my divorce, I mean gut wrenching which made no logical sense to me.

The point is -the only way we change is by changing... .   and it is frigging hard.  It opens up our deepest, darkest parts - and sometimes we go backwards... .   but I fundamentally believe if I consistently change my patterns, I will find a kind, consistent person attractive.  If I change my energy, eventually my energy of attraction will change.

So, I ask you - if you keep doing the same thing over and over - how do you think it is going to change?  The thing is, you already know the answers here... .  

Since you know them, what is it that you want in a stable relationship?  What do you think is going to be different than what you have?  Is it realistic of you to think this?  Stability comes boredom at times, are you ok with that?  

Is it possible that instability is giving you a sense of control on the predictable?  :)oes this seem safe to you?

[Maryiscontrary]

And basically you are changing your habits, you are building countless electrical lines and connections in your nervous system. That is a lot of tissues building, which is a lot of protein synthesis. It's a he'll of a lot of work. And you also have to tear down old neural connective pathways as well. It's remodelling tissue, pruning and growth.

This is what makes change so hard.

But  I don't think the situation you just decscribed with your ex is healthy, either.

[MaybeSo]

Oh, I have no doubt your thoughts are correct - my question to you is this... .   are you willing to risk completely being alone and rebuilding yourself without a backup relationship and not settling to achieve your goal of a stable relationship?

[i]I already did this.  He bullied my out of the house in 2011. Since then I've moved 3x, bought my own house, finished my masters program internship and continue on with my life.  I do not wait for him to become stable for me to become stable, I have put a lot of time and focus on my own life, it's the only way I could ever have even risked being in even limited contact with him again. [/i]

As for acheiving a goal of a stable relationship, I just don't know how I really feel about it right now; Honestly,  I seem to long for it. But, honestly, right now, is meeting a new man so I can have a long term relationship my #1 priority?  No.  I'm embarking on a new career, I have a new home... .   I have good freinds, I think I rather focus on those things right now, but, if someone nice came along in an organic manner (NO ONLINE DATING)... .   yea, I hope one day I can have that.

The BPD relationship - nope, you likely don't really get to have him as your stability - you know the disorder, you know the recovery process, I think you have read The Buddha and the Borderline which shows first hand the push/pull even with being considered recovered.

Now, I am going to ask you this - does he know you are 100% pot committed and want a real, stable relationship?  These exact words, that you are willing to do the hard, he do DBT, the family DBT - all of it?  If you have not put yourself out there to let him choose all of this, well - maybe it is worth the risk... .   I dunno.

I hear you.  He does work with a  :)BT therapist already, and also another therapist too.  And I work with my own.  I dont' know about family DBT etc.,.  We've been down the BPD label before, he doesn't like identifying with it; he identifies with having an attachment disorder, and that's about it.  He knows his T has training with DBT, but I have been soundly admonished for LABELING him in the past.  So, I don't even want to go down that road.  His therapy is his business.  I guess I don't want to get invovled in this therapy or make it have something to do with me; I do my own T, he does his.  If we got to where we could work with a skilled DBT couples cx, that could be beneficial I think, but I we tried couples cx 2x before and it was a bust.

I can only give you what I am experiencing and how I am somewhat imperfectly walking down this path.  My good friend made a joke a few years ago when someone asked my type - "crazy, arrogant, smart".  GULP - the think is, that is my type I am initially attracted too.  Then, I justify and look for only the good parts and am shocked when it doesn't work out!

Over the last year, I have dated & ended things after about 6 weeks with 2 of these.  Yep, I was attracted, yep, I started to see the patterns and it was gut wrenching for me to pull away when nothing bad had happened yet.  I mean, I doubted myself (thank God for my best friend processing over and over with me), and the loneliness felt from ending them - not really even like my divorce, I mean gut wrenching which made no logical sense to me.

The point is -the only way we change is by changing... .   and it is frigging hard.  It opens up our deepest, darkest parts - and sometimes we go backwards... .   but I fundamentally believe if I consistently change my patterns, I will find a kind, consistent person attractive.  If I change my energy, eventually my energy of attraction will change.

Yes, I think you are correct.  I don't see much changing in the way of who I draw to my life if I keep doing the same tango I do with him.  Though, I think the tango with him has changed, for what it's worth. I'm not devestated. I don't feel I need him. I understand his limitations, though it can still have a sting of... .   oh yea... .   how disapointing, he can't do this. We RARELY argue or spar, nothing is really UGLY between us, it's just that he's not going to stay... .   he's doing what he does, and I accept that, too.  He doens't live with me, I have my own place, I make sure whatever mercurial stuff he has going on cannot greatly upset my own apple cart anymore.

So, I ask you - if you keep doing the same thing over and over - how do you think it is going to change?  The thing is, you already know the answers here... .  

Yup, I get it. I do like parts of him and enjoy some of his good qualities. But, I have remained very disengaged through this,  I don't feel floored or anything over this... .   I have said to my best freind, the pain of this in the past use to be devestating, now... .   it's just sort of a dull, annoying ache.  

Since you know them, what is it that you want in a stable relationship?  What do you think is going to be different than what you have?  Is it realistic of you to think this?  Stability comes boredom at times, are you ok with that?  

Yes I think I'm okay with boredom.  I like when my relationship with him is really calm and probably boring.  I think that's why he said I'm not efferevscent enough for him.  Ugh.  I think what concerns me is that as a woman, no matter how much I understand his stuff intellectutally and don't really take it personally anymore,  it still gets me in that soft, sore, self esteem place when he says things like that.  You aren't efferevescent enough.  Ouch.  I picture some model in a beer commercial when he says these things.  Wow, how does one become more efferevscent?  He's one of the moodiest SOBs I've ever met when he's not feeling good, and he wants ME to be more effing efferevscent?  Huh?

Is it possible that instability is giving you a sense of control on the predictable?  :)oes this seem safe to you?

Sure, yes, my dad came and went.  When he showed up, he was like a visiting rock star. Then he'd leave, then he's eventually show up again.  I see that I am adjusted to this at a very deep level; this is, in a weird way, what love feels like to me, what family relating feels like to me, what closeness feels like to me.  Your loved one comes, then he goes.  It's not stable, it's just whvery very familiar to me.

[seeking balance]

And basically you are changing your habits, you are building countless electrical lines and connections in your nervous system. That is a lot of tissues building, which is a lot of protein synthesis. It's a he'll of a lot of work. And you also have to tear down old neural connective pathways as well. It's remodelling tissue, pruning and growth.

yes, brain scans of pwBPD before dbt and after dbt prove this to be true.

As such, it will be true for us.

one of my favorite quotes about change:

"transformation without work and pain, without suffering, without a sense of loss is jut an illusion of true change."

[seeking balance]

How did you end up dating him again MaybeSo?

How do you even have room for a new, stable relationship with him an integral part of your life?  I mean, your are not single... .  

Could he just be "saying" he is leaving - you know, dysregulated and it will pass?  He says he's bored, so why not pick on you to start some drama?  Worked in the past, right?

You handled it well... .   honestly.

This post seems to have 2 themes for me:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated.

2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner

Am I accurate in the themes, or am I misreading something?

[Phoenix.Rising]

Wow, how does one become more efferevscent?  He's one of the moodiest SOBs I've ever met when he's not feeling good, and he wants ME to be more effing efferevscent?  Huh?

Maybe he is projecting.

[MaybeSo]

How did you end up dating him again MaybeSo?

Ugh. Match.com.  

How do you even have room for a new, stable relationship with him an integral part of your life?  I mean, your are not single... .  

I am pretty busy, I guess dipping into something with him in some ways was easier than starting all over with someone new... .   I'm not sure I have the energy to actually start all over again right now... .   Maybe I'm just being lazy.

Could he just be "saying" he is leaving - you know, dysregulated and it will pass?  He says he's bored, so why not pick on you to start some drama?  Worked in the past, right?

You handled it well... .   honestly.

Yes, he is dysregulated.  Yes, so why not pick a fight?  Yes, it's worked in the past.  I'm not biting like before, I'm saying I support whatever he needs to do. I think that leaves him feeling very odd.

This post seems to have 2 themes for me:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated. YES

2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner  YES

Am I accurate in the themes, or am I misreading something?   YES, those are the two themes.

[MaybeSo]

Wow, how does one become more efferevscent?  He's one of the moodiest SOBs I've ever met when he's not feeling good, and he wants ME to be more effing efferevscent?  Huh?


Maybe he is projecting.

Yes.  Last time when he bullied me out of his house, he said having me in his life made his life feel cluttered and disorganized. 

Our house was lovely and well organized.

What he was describing was how he was feeling inside.

[seeking balance]

This post seems to have 2 themes for me:

1 - BPD partner and how to manage your feelings of worthiness while he is dysregulated. YES

ok... .   I really think this is better suited to the stayers, Steph, UFN, Briefcase, etc  would likely be experts on this. 

The thing is, I think this is basic self talk for you.  Remind yourself the facts of the disorder.  Remind yourself that you are worthy and his latest outburst is simply that - an outburst rooted in his BPD tendencies.  All dysregulated times, cycle back around... .   once that happens, use DEARMAN to communicate your needs.

Again, I am not in a BPD relationship and I am simply telling you what I know they do over there - I, personally, do not know that I would actively choose this kind of relationship again.  It is simply too much work for me.  I cannot say this on staying, but this is PI.

That said, you went back to him for a reason and with reasonable expectations - these relationships do work, they have moments like every other relationship - maybe a little bigger - but all relationships have issues.

If you are wanting to end the relationship, that is a whole different discussion.

2 - are you capable of attracting a more stable partner  YES

Am I accurate in the themes, or am I misreading something?   YES, those are the two themes.

This part and how you do it, kinda not important until you figure out the direction of the current relationship - wouldn't you say?

[OTH]

How did you end up dating him again MaybeSo?

Ugh. Match.com.  

Haha... .   I knew my ex for years before. We were casual friends. Then she moved to California and we became email friends. Then I moved to Washington and she came and visited and we had quite the romantic adventure. Then 6 months of flights. A magical long distance relationship. An engagement. She moved in with me. And... .   it all went downhill from there. We should have stayed a LDR.  

I knew another girl for a couple years. Always thought she was a bit crazy but she really took an interest in me and was very attractive. She lived with me for 4 years. She was better than my last exgf but when she did lose it she got angry. Scary kind of angry. She had a bad week and things were spiraling up. I packed a get out bag and left it in my car. She attacked me one day and I blocked her punches and maneuvered between her and the front door. She started insulting my manhood and daring me to punch her. I bolted out the door into my car and left my house at her mercy. I didn't come back until she was gone. She took all my furniture but wth I had my freedom. Oh God... .   I moved back into driving range of her area. She contacted me! Must be looking at my facebook page. She is married and with a child and wanted to meet up. Oh man.

Crazy gonna find a crazy magnet. Sorry... .   probably wasn't very helpful. Carry on.  

[seeking balance]

Crazy gonna find a crazy magnet.

OMG - I need to make that into a T-shirt!

Sorry for the quick hijack

[Phoenix.Rising]

Humor is appreciated and much needed... .    

With that, much  to you, MaybeSo!

[Suzn]

My friend, the fact you are bringing up your father in this makes me think you still have some work/grieving to do there. I think you were hurt, again. This is core stuff for you.

You're looking for comfort right now which is perfectly normal. What are your resources for comfort? Of course you have us.  

I think you also may be disappointed that you are starting a new career and you would have liked to be able share that. You have big changes there. With these things going on, anyone would feel a little off balance.

[MaybeSo]

My friend, the fact you are bringing up your father in this makes me think you still have some work/grieving to do there. I think you were hurt, again. This is core stuff for you.

Yes. I've done much grieving regarding the old dad stuff in the last 2-3 years. You'd think I was about done by now. Guess not entirely, if ever. Sigh. 

[MaybeSo]

Let me tell you A MAN celebrates his woman,  and works hard to make day to day life for her a little less crappy. Any other man is a baby looking for mommy SOB. you are just one giant nipple to these louts. And just to be fair... .   it is the same the other way around when nice guys get jacked around.

There is some real truth to this.

I feel I am an expert in dealing with narcisstic men.

My father is a nice guy, but really, pretty codependent, narcisstic, and emotionally immature. And I love him. Have idealized him for many,  many years, even as he has let me and my siblings down over and over. This has set up a pattern of being with immature men who do really hurtful stuff and then thinking if I work hard enough it will get better and just feeling like that's what I can get, these kind of men.  Always earning their love.  If I can just get it right... .   then... .   then it will be fixed and they will love me.  I know there ARE men who ARE more grown up than the men I've been around all my life.  I know there must be some grown up men out there.  I wonder what they would think of me?  Would they even like me?  My freinds tell me men look at me a lot, and that I seem to not notice it.  My supervisor said I'm the only very attractive woman she knows that seems totally UNAWARE of the admiring glances and attention I get in public from men.  I do not take it in.  She notices it, and I don't. Why? What is that?  Attention from men, some of them no doubt maybe nice men,  makes me feel uncomfortable, why is that?

But put a man in front of me that wants to hold court, and I'm on it. He talks. I listen attentively and admiringly.    

This immature stuff from men,  and meeting their needs, this is what loving a man feels like to me.  I can be fiesty and stick up for myself, but I really can adore and labor tirelessly over a man who is really just immature.  I get way too mushy and sentimental and loving with men who really aren't grown-up and can be REAL JERKS to me in many core ways.  But all of them are at times really nice to me in some significant ways, too.  This only confuses the matter for me.  

But it always ends, it's not stable, it's just like the above, they need the nipple. My dad did not really parent me, he held court and allowed me to bask in the glory of his stories, his issues, his love life, his ups and downs and his coming and goings.   It's all about HIM. Always has been. I was the pefect mirroring object for my dad.  Always have been. If I'm not, he distances himself from me.  Just like my any man I've ever dated. All discussions are 98 % about HIM.  Same with my ex.  Maybe 2 % about me.  I can be neutral, happy or sexy... .   but if I'm anything else, sad, angry, perplexed, tired... .   etc, they don't want to know me AT ALL. This is the way of my people, this, it would seem is my normal, I am used to being around and loving immature, narcisstic, men. I'm good at it. I'm not proud of it, but I will say, I am good at it.  I listen and they talk talk talk talk about themselves. What do they want, what do they need, what they are happy about, what they are upset about, what I can do to make them happy, bla bla bla bla bla.  They in turn sometimes do really nice things for me until they get distracted and then theres nothing. They are not all bad, they are just not emotinally THERE and they are very young.  And they can be really hurtful and unreliable.  How my dad looks is always such a big deal to him, cause he's so handsome. He always needs a lot of validation.  My ex does too. Argh, so much work!  I'm really getting sick of these guys.    I do wonder what it's like to relate to a grown-up man who can show up and be like, a grown up man.  What is that like?  I've never really dated a grown up man.  I've dated professional, successful men. But they aren't really grown up.  

[Suzn]

He (your ex) triggered you. It's a trigger. How protected have you been from these prior to this reunion? I am finding that I can somewhat measure where I am in my processing/grieving by how quickly I recognize a trigger and how I react to it. The latter is a choice, that, I've learned, and it is not always easy. Oh boy, there have been a few times I wanted to revert back, then I tried the kicking myself really hard for thinking of reverting back... .   Be kind to yourself, you know your past, you're only human and you sound as though you're having growing pains. Trick question, how do you recognize a grown up? (Don't throw a shoe at me  )