how to deal with upheaval?

[jedicloak]

Hi again,

I'm still quite new, but I have been reading many of the resources - but there are a lot of them and it will take time to get through them. Without getting into a whole long story, my wife is back East with her folks for a few weeks (because I needed time away from her). I have a very specific question.

When my wife is in the midst of an emotional storm (about whatever) and she is desperate for attention/reassurance/comfort - so much so that I'll get multiple phone calls, emails, texts if I am away from her... .   and I no longer want to be involved in her storms... .   is it acceptable to say, "I'm very sorry you're having a hard time! I love you and very much care about you, but I will not be swept up into your problem. It hurts me. I recommend you go to a meeting, call your counselor, go for a walk, listen to music."

I want to redefine the way we conduct our relationship, and I no longer want to have a "problem relationship", where we spend a LOT of our time together discussing her emotional/behavioral/dissociative challenges/issues. I don't mind spending time with her when she's happy and positive, but after 8 years of BPD/PTSD and DID - I'm burnt out on dealing with her "issues."

So again I ask, is it acceptable to say that? My books on codependency tell me I need to be honest and take care of myself. Is this a way to do that? Thank you,

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[HarmKrakow]

Is it acceptable? My dear dear man, it's not just acceptable, it's even normal! How about that! 

[jedicloak]

I needed to hear that. Why is that? What is wrong with me that I need a stranger online to tell me "heck ya say that - it's normal to say that - it's abnormal to be swept into chaos."

BUT, I feel if I say this, it's making light of the emotional pain she's in - that's the catch. I DO NOT want to be swept into her storm, but at the same time I want to acknowledge she's in pain (and tell her good luck solving that issue)... .   does what I wrote in my proposed email cover it?

Geez, look at me... .   I'm still asking for permission to take care of myself... .   ugh!

[WalrusGumboot]

jedicloak, in my case, saying that would have backfired. I was her husband, and I don't want to help her when she is having problems, and only talk to her when she's happy? How could I say I care about her and turn around and say I don't want to get "swept up" when she is having difficulty? What kind of husband am I?   (I'm not criticizing what you wrote or your good intentions - I am just sharing how my exBPDw would have responded).

I would have had to phrase it more like "I cannot discuss this problem with you when you are this way. It is hurtful to me. I recommend you cool down first by taking a walk yada yada yada, and we can talk about it when when you are calm."

Just my 2 cents.

[jrx]

I agree that it's normal --- 8 years for you? I've done 3 and I'm already sick of her bull~. (Sorry, I'm punchy right now. I promise I'm nicer than that.) At this point, you're her therapist. And if you're not experiencing her issues, you're talking with her about them. You have every right to be burnt out.

Separately, it seems like you're validating her by acknowledging her pain. I've heard that's good. I've also heard that disengaging until she's become calmer is a valid and healthy strategy.

Telling her what to do is a trap I've fallen into hundreds of times. I never seem to learn that it's invalidating to her because (in bizarro English) I've told her what she's doing now is stupid, that she's stupid for not having thought of it, and that the world would be better if she were run over by a truck. Beyond that, I don't have skills to share with you about this. You can have plenty of empathy though.

[causticdork]

Of course it's acceptable to us, but we don't have BPD.  If I had said that to my ex back when we were together she would have lost her mind on me though.  I used to tell her that all I asked was for her to tell me what she wanted when she was upset.  Sometimes she wanted to be left alone and sometimes she wanted me to stay and hold her, but she gave no indication as to which one it was she wanted, and if I guessed wrong she thought it meant I never loved her at all.  If I asked her what she wanted it meant I didn't care and never made her feel safe or comforted, and then she'd start comparing me to other people she'd dated who were better at reading her insane signals. 

Obviously my own attempts to cope with a BPD partner failed and I wound up ending the relationship, but I found the best way to handle stuff like this with my own partner was to have these conversations when everything was fairly mellow.  When she was in a decent mood or even in apology mode realizing how unfair she'd been I would discuss with her how we could better handle these situations so they didn't turn into huge fights over absolutely nothing.  Some of the techniques we came up with helped, some got forgotten in the heat of the moment, and a few of them made things worse, but the only way we could make changes and have civil discussions was when we had them during neutral times.  Trying to talk logically to someone in the midst of a BPD breakdown is pointless. 

[jedicloak]

Trying to talk logically to someone in the midst of a BPD breakdown is pointless. 

I thank you for all the feedback - please keep it coming - it all helps me. I liked this comment because it definitely rings true in my experience. It's like trying to talk at a hurricane... .   pointless.

[HarmKrakow]

Trying to talk logically to someone in the midst of a BPD breakdown is pointless. 

I thank you for all the feedback - please keep it coming - it all helps me. I liked this comment because it definitely rings true in my experience. It's like trying to talk at a hurricane... .   pointless.

Talking to someone with BPD is per definition pointless. He'll support the Lakers today, tomorrow the Yankees and the day after the Bulls or some other sports team. You can't use your own logical sense with someone like that who is so ill.

[jedicloak]

The BPDw is back East visiting her folks at my insistence because I needed time away from her. She was supposed to stay until August... .   she's sick of it there and is coming back at the end of this month... .   even though I don't want her too and have clearly, and numerous times said I need space to get healthy and deal with my codependency issues & she needs to figure out how to get happy - because she wasn't happy here either.

We have an apt here. I'm currently unemployed looking for work and she rarely works because of her emotional/anxiety/BPD issues. After 8 years of dealing with her "issues" - I'm working on me and I'm not ready to make a decision about divorce right now - but I find the distance is a welcome pleasure and I'm happy she's not here... .   email and phone calls is perfect level of communication. She won't take no for an answer and leaves me in a VERY difficult spot.

Ugh.

My counselor reminds me I have options... .   I can leave and stay somewhere else. I can set firm boundaries and get an accountability partner to help me maintain them. Neither option is great. I'm happy being separated by space right now. Anyone have thoughts on this or ideas I haven't thought of?

[arabella]

She won't take no for an answer and leaves me in a VERY difficult spot.

***

My counselor reminds me I have options... .   I can leave and stay somewhere else. I can set firm boundaries and get an accountability partner to help me maintain them. Neither option is great. I'm happy being separated by space right now. Anyone have thoughts on this or ideas I haven't thought of?

What do you mean she won't take no for an answer? What exactly is the question? If it's whether she can move back in with you, I don't see how she has a choice. Unless her name is on the lease, in which case she has just as much right to be there as you do. If that's the case, and your boundary is "I will not live with you right now" and she is insisting on moving back in to the apt, then you need to move. Why do you not like the options your counselor suggests? (I'm just trying to understand, so bear with me here!)

Also, reading back through this thread, it occurs to me that you may be feeding into a bit of Munchausen syndrome. Maybe not at a clinical level or whatever, but you get the idea. Basically, you've established a pattern whereby your W gets your attention, support, and affection via being ill. She has a crisis, you 'feed' her. No crisis, no communication. So she has more meltdowns or 'emergencies' (she's probably not doing this on purpose, it's likely subconscious). So, not only do you need to stop getting sucked in for the sake of your own health, you need to stop in order for her to get better too. Plus, be supportive, loving, attentive, etc. when she is NOT having a crisis - then direct her elsewhere when she is. Perhaps this will help?

[jedicloak]

Basically, you've established a pattern whereby your W gets your attention, support, and affection via being ill. She has a crisis, you 'feed' her. No crisis, no communication. So she has more meltdowns or 'emergencies' (she's probably not doing this on purpose, it's likely subconscious). So, not only do you need to stop getting sucked in for the sake of your own health, you need to stop in order for her to get better too. Plus, be supportive, loving, attentive, etc. when she is NOT having a crisis - then direct her elsewhere when she is.

That is an interesting observation. I will need to step back and take an honest look at that. Thanks for your viewpoint!

[Grey Kitty]

Hi, I just found this thread a bit late into the conversation, and I thought I'd throw in my $.02 aimed at your original question:

is it acceptable to say, "I'm very sorry you're having a hard time! I love you and very much care about you, but I will not be swept up into your problem. It hurts me. I recommend you go to a meeting, call your counselor, go for a walk, listen to music."

I wouldn't use the word "acceptable" first off--that's a judgement call, and you two obviously have different judgement regarding that, and have very little chance of coming to an easy agreement. I will answer instead what would be a healthy relationship dynamic regarding this issue... .  

Here's how I see it:

1. She is your wife, and you are in a relationship with her because you love her and care about her, and so her problems should matter to you and be received with compassion.

2. She is not mentally healthy, so she dumps emotional crap on you beyond your capacity to take it.

I see a fine line, and this statement would be splattering both sides of it. Not caring about her problems isn't healthy. Letting her dump on you (to your detriment) isn't healthy either.

Rejecting her isn't going to work for her, and as a pwBPD, she would be hyper-sensitive to rejection.

instead I'd look to see if there is something in her behavior that I wanted to set a boundary with. (Does she start raging/ranting after a while?)

The other thing I would try is to get out of the situation each time because I need to at that time, rather than trying to get her to stop the whole pattern. Here are some example scripts/ideas:

"I am too worked up to talk to you about this right now. I'll discuss it more with you when I have calmed down."

If you need to take some time out, consider setting a time limit, and sticking to it. Say "I will be back in 20 minutes" or 2 hours or whatever. Then DO come back on time. If things go out of hand again, you can leave again, perhaps for longer... .   being clear about how long you are going to be unavailable helps with the fear of abandonment.

With phone calls / txts / emails, you can still do something like that, and if you say you won't be there for 20 minutes, don't answer (or even read) them for that long.

These are tools you can use to protect yourself from being overrun/overwhelmed with her issues when you can't deal with them without completely rejecting her.

FYI, the "I recommend you ... .   " part at the end is invalidating--It really is up to her to figure it out, and nobody likes being told what to do... .   especially by somebody who is currently rejecting them. When you are stepping out, I wouldn't try to give her "help" on your way out. These ideas might be helpful for her at another time... .   but they won't be well received at that time.

Hope this helps you some!

GK

[Chosen]

jedicloak,

I'm not in a position to advise you, but let's say I send my uBPDh the stuff you planned to say, it would cause a storm.  My H has strong abandonment fears, and this would just confirm his fears that I would desert him when he needs me.  Remember, when they are having some sort of emotional storm, it's all about them.  You can be at a low point in your life, you can be ill, you can feel unable to handle it all... .  they will not care.  If you don't tend to them, you are deserting them. 

I can't think of the exact words you could say now, but I guess the best way is to let her know you want to be there for her, you are there, even though you may not know what to say or do.  Then I guess you're already telling her you are not leaving, and you have "warned" her that you are just there to listen and not give advise or whatever, because you simply can't.  This may not please her, but I consider it a kind of middle ground, where you can't be blamed for desertion and not caring, but you're not putting yourself into the position of a rescuer.