How to deal with the lashing out and BPDH's worst symptom(s)

[MammaMia]

Is this a legal separation?  Have you filed for divorce?  

Regardless, your financial agreements should be in writing.  It does not matter if he is angry and playing games or splitting you black, that does not excuse him from his legal responsibilities toward his family.  

You may wish to consult an attorney.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Is this a legal separation?  Have you filed for divorce?  

Regardless, your financial agreements should be in writing.  It does not matter if he is angry and playing games or splitting you black, that does not excuse him from his legal responsibilities toward his family.  

You may wish to consult an attorney.

I have an attorney.  He says it takes time to get an order of support.  First H has a month to list all expenses, provide bank statements, provide income info, and then the info goes to a judge to determine an order of support.  The courts are "backed up" and H knows that. 

[MammaMia]

That is good news.   I am glad to hear you have an advocate working to help you.

Hang in there.

[SadWifeofBPD]

H: did you pay the X bill as promised.

Me: No, because I never promised to pay that bill. You promised to pay all bills. H: We're supposed to share the bills.

Me: No, that's not true. You earn much, much more than I do (H is a very high earner). My earnings, as you know, go straight to paying for our vacation home. There is little leftover money, not even enough to pay for all of my expenses.

 H: Well, I can't pay all the bills because (some very lame and untrue reason).

 Me: you're supposed to pay bills first before you incur non-essential expenses. I've already paid for all of the vacation home bills - its mortgage, electricity bill, cable, and internet. I've also paid for the cell phone bill, the electric bill, all of my expenses, and our son's rent (while in college) and his recent doctor bills and Rxs.)

 H: STFU

just saying "no" would not have stopped anything.  H makes a huge deal about imagined promises.  If I had just said, "no", he would have gone on and on about how I'm a "liar" because I "promised" to pay that bill and didn't. 

H has some hang-up about perceived promises.  Not only does he imagine ones that never happened, but he'll also take a casual statement like, "This weekend I'd like to clean-out my closet" as some kind of promise.  I have long-learned to never make casual statements like that anymore because if something serious comes up (illness, other family obligation, etc) that prevents me from doing that thing, H will still think I've broken a promise and rage about it.

His black and white thinking doesn't allow him to reason that if I get sick, then I can't do X.  However, if some friends had this situatiion, H would be able to understand.  He just views everything I do (or don't do) as some kind of reflection on him. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

No is great place to stop because you got looped into a circular argument with the JADE, then your busy justifying why you can't pay for stuff - he knows this,

That's the point, he doesn't "know this."  I have found that time and time again he doesn't "know," "remember," or "understand," various things.  Before I knew that he'd been drinking excessively at night after I'd go to sleep and that his sleeping pills also affect his memory, I thought he had early onset Dementia or Alzheimer's because his memory had gotten so bad. 

Now, I know not to engage in any kind of "back and forth" with him when he's upset or raging, because he won't "hear" me at all. Seriously he won't.  He once called, my son answered, H didn't realize it was my son, H started raging, my son kept saying, ":)ad, this is (Boy's name)." over and over, but my H never heard him.  H kept raging at "me", but our son was on the phone. 

H truly is like a two year old having a tantrum.

However, I've found that if he sends me an email with a short questions (such as, "did you pay X bill" as promised), I can usually write a couple of sentences that back up my position and that's often ok.  It's especially helpful if I can include a "blurb" from a previous email that backs up my action or non-action.

BTW... .   for many years, I've tried to communicate by email a LOT (or texting) so that there is a record of "conversations," "agreements," etc.   (I have an app that emails every text.)  Doing this has "saved me" many times.  I especially do this with any future plans (dinner invitations, children's events, etc.  I got tired of H saying, "you didn't tell me about X"  So, I started emailing him and in the email, I always put some kind of question in it that he has to respond to so that I can also later prove that he did see the email.  This has saved me many, many times. 

[MammaMia]

sadwife

He is really sick.  It is like beating your head against the wall to talk to him.  Written communication is a good idea, and not talking to him would be even better... .   but that is not realistic. 

When my son does this, I just listen.  Do not say a word until he is done.  Then I give a yes or no or, I will look into it answer and keep any response VERY brief and simple.  It is futile to argue and/or justify. Then, get off the phone as quickly as possible.  I have hung up on him on occasion but a simple.  "sorry, I have to go" works.  If he calls back do not answer the phone.  That may force him to e-mail or text. Since he has already vented, he may not bother to call back... .   that is what he wanted to do and he accomplished that. 

This is a form of verbal abuse that is so common in BPD.  Remember... .   others can only do to us what we allow them to do.  Set boundaries for communication and do not argue with him or justify.  Defer him to your lawyer on legal matters.  That is what you have one for. 

Believe me, I know how frustrating this is.  For your H it is a control issue.  He should not be drinking alcohol when taking sleeping pills.  That can be a dangerous combination.  I am convinced BPD does include memory issues... .   sometimes they seem to recall only what works in their favor.  They have selective memory. Sometimes they believe they have told us things they have not but can remember minute details of something that happened 30 years ago. 

Stop being so nice to him.  You set the rules and then be firm about enforcing them.

[GreenMango]

I'm for setting those boundaries Mammamia suggested.  It's what you allow.

Him: did you pay ... .  

You: No we agreed to blank.

Him: nasty accusations

You: we can talk when its respectful.  I've got to go.  (hang up)

If verbal doesn't work ( I get it its really hard when it gets all twisted up like this and turns circular ) go to written its easier to keep it on point.

He knows he's pushing , he's knows he's lashing out - does he know why or psych issues behind it? No.  Does he care or realize that its unreasonable or hurtful? Probably not.  Addicts can be really self-centered.  He knows it feels good to let it out on you though.

Setting these boundaries isnt about hurting him.  It's about you doing what you need to do to clean up your end if the street to make a calmer life for yourself if you can't leave.  The beauty in it is you start to control your environment - its less at the whim of an alcoholic mentally ill person. You can't let a person like this lead your life. 

[SadWifeofBPD]

sadwife

He is really sick.  It is like beating your head against the wall to talk to him.  Written communication is a good idea, and not talking to him would be even better... .   but that is not realistic. 

When my son does this, I just listen.  Do not say a word until he is done.  Then I give a yes or no or, I will look into it answer and keep any response VERY brief and simple.  It is futile to argue and/or justify. Then, get off the phone as quickly as possible.  I have hung up on him on occasion but a simple.  "sorry, I have to go" works.  If he calls back do not answer the phone.  That may force him to e-mail or text. Since he has already vented, he may not bother to call back... .   that is what he wanted to do and he accomplished that. 

This is a form of verbal abuse that is so common in BPD.  Remember... .   others can only do to us what we allow them to do.  Set boundaries for communication and do not argue with him or justify.  Defer him to your lawyer on legal matters.  That is what you have one for. 

Believe me, I know how frustrating this is.  For your H it is a control issue.  He should not be drinking alcohol when taking sleeping pills.  That can be a dangerous combination.  I am convinced BPD does include memory issues... .   sometimes they seem to recall only what works in their favor.  They have selective memory. Sometimes they believe they have told us things they have not but can remember minute details of something that happened 30 years ago. 

Stop being so nice to him.  You set the rules and then be firm about enforcing them.

Yes, he is really sick.  My kida and I have said that many, many times.  We're frustrated by the fact that his relatives have not hardly seen any of this, and they are naively providing emotional support for him (they live several states away).  The fact that they don't know the truth, and they have a natural desire to "support their brother," they have been giving him some VERY bad advice.  I get some comfort from knowing that at some point, they'll be the frequent target of his rages and then they'll be smacked into reality.

When we're on the phone, H does NOT EVER tolerate me saying, "I have to go."  When cell phones first became popular, H bought me one.  At first I was flattered.  But, I quickly learned that he bought it so that I'd be available to him all the time.  So, if he called, and I was at the cashier at the supermarket and not able to talk, he'd get angry if I said, "I'm at the cashier, I have to call you back."  He'd say, "I got you that phone so I can reach you when I need you."  I told him if that's the case, I don't want the phone.  He also gets upset if while we're on the phone (and just chatting, nothing important) and an important call comes thru, and I say, "X is calling, I need to take that call." 

The drinking and the alcohol will likely always be his "go to" solution to go to sleep.  He gets himself too wired during the day with various crap that he "needs" the pills and booze to fall asleep. 

I do prefer written conversations (emails, texts) because then there is a record.  However, if H is upset, then he won't read my response because he doesn't want to find out that he's wrong.

I really don't see a solution to this.  The handwriting seems to be on the wall.  H sent a text to our older son last night.  Son ignored it and I'm sure H is going to rage about that and blame me. 

I'm for setting those boundaries Mammamia suggested.  It's what you allow.

Him: did you pay ... .  

You: No we agreed to blank.

Him: nasty accusations

You: we can talk when its respectful.  I've got to go.  (hang up)

If verbal doesn't work ( I get it its really hard when it gets all twisted up like this and turns circular ) go to written its easier to keep it on point.

I do think the above conversation is much better.  I do prefer using written because it can work better, but I've also found that when H is too upset, he will refuse to read my responses because he doesn't want to learn that he was wrong.  He prides himself on his memory (which is very good when it comes to sports trivia, or entertainment trivia, but his memory is awful when it comes to events that involve us. 

He knows he's pushing , he's knows he's lashing out - does he know why or psych issues behind it? No.  Does he care or realize that its unreasonable or hurtful? Probably not.  Addicts can be really self-centered.  He knows it feels good to let it out on you though.

Setting these boundaries isnt about hurting him.  It's about you doing what you need to do to clean up your end if the street to make a calmer life for yourself if you can't leave.  The beauty in it is you start to control your environment - its less at the whim of an alcoholic mentally ill person. You can't let a person like this lead your life. 

He says he's hurtful because I deserve it.     He says that I frustrate him and therefore I deserve this.  That's why it's so nice to live apart from him. 

[GreenMango]

I do prefer written conversations (emails, texts) because then there is a record. However, if H is upset, then he won't read my response because he doesn't want to find out that he's wrong.

My guess is he knows.

It may be time to consider if its more important to be happy or to be right.

It looks like pointing out his errors hasn't made things better.  It seems to be fueling more problems.  Do you want to try a different approach?*


*it doesn't cure the alcoholism or pd traits, but it may bring the conflict down.

[SadWifeofBPD]

I do prefer written conversations (emails, texts) because then there is a record. However, if H is upset, then he won't read my response because he doesn't want to find out that he's wrong.

My guess is he knows.

It may be time to consider if its more important to be happy or to be right.

It looks like pointing out his errors hasn't made things better.  It seems to be fueling more problems.  Do you want to try a different approach?*


*it doesn't cure the alcoholism or pd traits, but it may bring the conflict down.

Believe me, I don't try to be "right" unless there's a serious consequence if a correction isn't made.  If there's an approach that won't have a different, but equally awful negative consequence, then fine.

However, there's this negative consequence that happens when H is allowed to believe that he's right even when he's not.  He doesn't just "leave it at that."  If he's been allowed to believe that he's right, then he'll use that as a "I was right about this, you were wrong" assault for weeks/months later.  Imagine how annoying it is for me to listen to "I was right and you were wrong" over and over again about an issue where I was really right but chose not to press the point. 

Years ago, H's therapist told him not to do that, but H continues.  H's therapist also told him that if I apologize for something, to take it as a "gift" and say no more.  H is unable to do that.  When I'm wrong about something and I apologize, then H can't just accept that.  He'll ether insist that I'm not really sorry, or he'll keep bringing it up for years and years (in another post I mentioned that my H still brings up a minor mistake I made over 20 years ago about a famous quote.  He brings it up at least every few months in a very cruel way.  Frankly, I find it funny that he has to go back 20 years and bring up a very minor mistake.

He's even told his current therapist this very old, minor mistake and yet she's still not "clued in" that he has BPD?  That's another story, but it is a frustration of mine that his current T is such a nurturing marshmallow who wouldn't confront him if her life depended on it. 

I'm really starting to think that his case is so severe that there aren't any techniques that would work with him.  As long as he's drinking along with BPD, he just doesn't have any self-control when it comes to me.  For awhile, I probably was allowing this to happen because I thought that if he took his frustrations out on me, he wouldn't do it at his job (and lose his job).   Now, that he hasn't had me to be the target of his rages, I imagine that he's a ticking time bomb and going to go "off" on someone at some point.

[rosannadanna]

Reading this thread made me think of the "Why don't you/yes, but" game that Earic Berne talks about in his book, Games People Play.

Your last post especially reminded me of what I used to hear when I did parenting work in my job.  The parent would shoot down all my suggestions and ultimately say "I have tried all of that and it doesn't work on my kid.  Nothing is going to work with my kid."

But wait, I have more two cents to add!   It also sounds like you have scapegoated yourself all these years in fear that your husband would show his butt publically and maybe lose his job/status.  I know my mother did this with my Bipolar father b/c she was constantly worried he would leave yet another job.

This is an opportunity for you to start disegaging from this familiar dynamic you have developed with this alcoholic, immature, vengeful a$$hat, but it probably feels unfamiliar.  That's understandable, but if you stick with it, it will mean emotional freedom for you and that is soo worth it. 

We are here for you.

Good luck and take care

[SadWifeofBPD]

Reading this thread made me think of the "Why don't you/yes, but" game that Earic Berne talks about in his book, Games People Play.

Your last post especially reminded me of what I used to hear when I did parenting work in my job.  The parent would shoot down all my suggestions and ultimately say "I have tried all of that and it doesn't work on my kid.  Nothing is going to work with my kid."

But wait, I have more two cents to add!   It also sounds like you have scapegoated yourself all these years in fear that your husband would show his butt publically and maybe lose his job/status.  I know my mother did this with my Bipolar father b/c she was constantly worried he would leave yet another job.

This is an opportunity for you to start disegaging from this familiar dynamic you have developed with this alcoholic, immature, vengeful a$$hat, but it probably feels unfamiliar.  That's understandable, but if you stick with it, it will mean emotional freedom for you and that is soo worth it. 

We are here for you.

Good luck and take care

It's funny that you should post this today because I had a similar conversation with my sister today (she's a T).  

We talked about how severe H's BPD and other issues are which is why many suggested ideas haven't worked.  

I know what you mean when you say that parents will often say that X method won't work with their child (and maybe they're right or maybe they're wrong).  I can see why it seems that I'm doing the same thing.  However, children are often more "bendable" while middle-aged adults, who have long-entrenched themselves in bad habits/behavior, may be less so.

H has so much pented-up anger (from job, from the death of his dad, and from his perceived major faults of mine when I'm painted black), that he reacts poorly no matter what is done.

For example:  We have seen at least 5 different therapists as a couple.  These are all trained T's and NONE of them could get H to behave (stop yelling) in their sessions.  They couldn't even "end" the sessions when they wanted to.  The last T told H that he (the T) was afraid of H.  Ever since that time, H has blamed me for that.  

Yes, I have protected his job, mostly because we have financial commitments (mortgages, college tuition, etc) that would fall apart without hs income.  My goal was always to get him to retirement and then make some permanent decisions.  However, ever since his drinking increased and he had an altercation with our younger son, I haven't been able to see much light at the end of the tunnel.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

H has so much pented-up anger (from job, from the death of his dad, and from his perceived major faults of mine when I'm painted black), that he reacts poorly no matter what is done.

The bolded part is the really crazy part.  When I'm painted White, I'm the best, smartest, most giving person/mother/wife in the world.  When I'm painted Black, I'm the most selfish person and the worst mom/wife in the world. 

[MammaMia]

Me too Sadwife... .   me too.  It totally sucks.

[SadWifeofBPD]

Me too Sadwife... .   me too.  It totally sucks.

so sorry that you're going thru this, too.  It's strange, isn't it.  When they're screaming that you're the worst _____, they don't seem to remember that they were saying that you're the best hit_ a day or so earlier.

Later, when H is calm, I'll ask him why he says that I'm the worst hit_, and he'll say, "Oh, you know I don't mean those things.  I'm just mad at the time." 

[GreenMango]

Since we were talking about how to deal with the lashing out... .   so where to from here?

What's your therapists input so far on how to deal with it?  Is it different than what Alanon recommends?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Since we were talking about how to deal with the lashing out... .   so where to from here?

What's your therapists input so far on how to deal with it?  Is it different than what Alanon recommends?

My therapist believes that H is beyond hope. She thinks his BPD with NPD traits is severe enough combined with alcoholism, his impulsivity, his "father issues" and his very lenient/indulgent mother that he'll never get better, he'll only get worse because he's so much in denial and really doesn't have a good grasp on reality. 

She thinks that if he truly got sober, really took his meds properly and had a serious T that knew how to properly confront, he might be a little better but never tolerable.  When she's blunt like that, it's hard not to accept that. 

[Want2know]

It's good to get feedback from your therapist to help make decisions on what course to take in life. 

Now that you have this information, are you ready to talk about what you can do to start making your life better?

[SadWifeofBPD]

Our older son has very limited contact with my H. (younger son has no contact).  Our older son feels that he needs to maintain this very limited contact because he thinks H would even treat me worse if there were no contact.   

H recently sent some texts to our older son that clearly indicate that H wants information about me... .  What I'm doing, where I'm living (I moved recently to avoid H's barging in unannounced), etc.  H wants this son to call him so that they can "talk".  Son and I are concerned that H really wants info about me. 

So far, son hasn't called H.  Son did send a short text saying that he's doing fine and that he'll call him sometime later (this was to buy time.)

Son doesn't want to be put in the middle.  he knows that he can't disclose where I'm living, but he knows if he flat out says, ":)ad, I can't tell you where mom is living," then he'll get furious and claim that son is "choosing sides" and that "your mom has turned you against me."

I'm thinking that son just needs to respond to such questions with: ":)ad, if you want to have a conversation about me and my life, then fine.  But, if the purpose of this phone call is to fish for information, then I'm going to have say good-bye."

[PDQuick]

I'm thinking that son just needs to respond to such questions with: ":)ad, if you want to have a conversation about me and my life, then fine.  But, if the purpose of this phone call is to fish for information, then I'm going to have say good-bye."

Communicating your message... .  isn't that putting him the middle. He's an adult, maybe it's best to let him decide what to say.  

Now that you have this information, are you ready to talk about what you can do to start making your life better?

You've vented a lot - and hopefully that has helped.  Want2Know is asking a good question.  Is it time to start disscussing how to build a bridge to a happier place?

[MammaMia]

Sadwife

This is called "triangulation (read definition)" and it is very common in BPD.  I have been there and it is not a good place to be.  Very stressful... .  very uncomfortable.  

Your son cannot mediate.  He needs to get out of the middle to avoid becoming a victim of your BPD H which will happen sooner or later.  He may want to refer your H to your lawyer for information or stay out of the discussion altogether.

[SadWifeofBPD]

It's good to get feedback from your therapist to help make decisions on what course to take in life.  

Now that you have this information, are you ready to talk about what you can do to start making your life better?

I have already started to make my life better.  I've gotten an apt and H will never know where it is.  I'm managing my business.  I'm taking a class that will lead to a new business venture.

He may want to refer your H to your lawyer for information or stay out of the discussion altogether.

Thankfully, lawyers can't give info.



As for the post that son would be communicating "my message," that's not true.  My son has voiced that it annoys him that H doesn't really seem interested in him, but just wants info.  So, if he were to say what I recommended, it would be "son's message." 

[Want2know]

As for the post that son would be communicating "my message," that's not true.  My son has voiced that it annoys him that H doesn't really seem interested in him, but just wants info.  So, if he were to say what I recommended, it would be "son's message." 

Having to parent your son with a partner you no longer want to be in a relationship with can be difficult.  That is understood.

Trying to be perhaps more of an impartial participant in their relationship might be more beneficial for all parties involved. 

My mom never spoke badly about my dad when they were divorcing or afterwards, even though I know she had major issues with him.  She even went to the extent of pointing out his good qualities when I was thinking he was a bad dad.  She took herself out of the equation, and was more impartial when I was venting about him to her.  She helped to keep me balanced instead of piling on with her own personal frustrations with him.

Is this something you are willing to do?

[MammaMia]

Sadwife

You are doing an excellent job of starting over and protecting yourself and your family.  You have come a long way.  I, for one, am very proud of you and what you are accomplishing. You are are laying the groundwork to be happy and successful on your own. 

Life will go on.  Move forward and look back only to remember how far you have come.  The future awaits.

The past is gone forever, the future is yet to be... .  today is the present ... .  it is a gift.

Love that.






   

[SadWifeofBPD]

As for the post that son would be communicating "my message," that's not true.  My son has voiced that it annoys him that H doesn't really seem interested in him, but just wants info.  So, if he were to say what I recommended, it would be "son's message."  

Having to parent your son with a partner you no longer want to be in a relationship with can be difficult.  That is understood.

Trying to be perhaps more of an impartial participant in their relationship might be more beneficial for all parties involved.  

My mom never spoke badly about my dad when they were divorcing or afterwards, even though I know she had major issues with him.  She even went to the extent of pointing out his good qualities when I was thinking he was a bad dad.  She took herself out of the equation, and was more impartial when I was venting about him to her.  She helped to keep me balanced instead of piling on with her own personal frustrations with him.

Is this something you are willing to do?

Since this child is nearly 24 and finishing his PhD, I'm not really parenting him anymore.  We're more like best friends.  

Since my children have both witnessed so many horrible parenting displays by their father, saying pleasant things about him (which I've done) can sound like saying "Hitler was nice to dogs."  It doesn't really balance out.  

[SadWifeofBPD]

Sadwife

You are doing an excellent job of starting over and protecting yourself and your family.  You have come a long way.  I, for one, am very proud of you and what you are accomplishing. You are are laying the groundwork to be happy and successful on your own. 

Life will go on.  Move forward and look back only to remember how far you have come.  The future awaits.

The past is gone forever, the future is yet to be... .  today is the present ... .  it is a gift.

Love that.

   

Thank you for your very kind words.  They are very much appreciated.  Yes, the future is a gift.  The fact that I have my adult children's 100% support is a gift.  I am a strong person and I'm able to do many things.  That is also a gift.  I have many blessings to be thankful for. 

{{{ hugs }}}