Is ours the only BPD mom who tries to hide it from the kids?

[sanemom]

Just wondering--I see story after story where the kids see their BPD parents raging at the other parent, but DH's BPD ex is very careful to hide her viciousness towards DH away from the kids.  She usually uses email to be nasty to him.  She DOES tell the kids all about court, but I am sure she makes DH the instigator and her the poor innocent victim.  I am sure the kids do not totally understand why DH avoids engaging in dialogue with her--they do not see the ugliness she spews back at him because she emails it.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if they could see this mess.  Occasionally, when it has directly impacted them, we have let them know about the attacks, but that has only been about 5% of the time.  I actually think they believe us though--not sure they used to, but I think they have heard her be ugly with her other ex husbands so they probably get it on some level.

She does everything she can to make them think she is a good mom--makes all kinds of empty promises, lets them do what they want (as long as she doesn't have to put herself out for it), etc.  Because of this, we sometimes do "put them in the middle" to arrange things (they are teens though).  For instance, if the kids want to stay an hour later at our house to do something, DH has them ask her because then she will say yes to make them happy.  If he makes the request, she gets nasty to him.

[mamachelle]

sanemom,

I find it interesting that she is hiding from the kids. My guess is that she is embarrassed by her behavior and also that she thinks your H and she are operating in an alternative realty that only they know about. She is obviously more aware of her actions than many BPDmoms. I guess it is a bit of a blessing in that respect except you feel crazy... .  

My experience with BPDmom was that she was horrfied when she found out that my NonH had shared her abusive, nasty, texts with me early on in our marriage. Some were about me. She was upset , angry and embarrased when she found out.

My SS10 has BPD traits and he went ballistic when he thought I might have told his afterschool counselors how he acts at home-- I am friends with a person that does know his afterschool counselors and see her regularly.

I think pwBPD think they are acting in a bubble sometimes. Strange.  I doubt though that BPD mom can sustain this.  But I've seen stranger things... .  

mamachelle

[motherof1yearold]

It is actually a better thing that she hides her viciousness from the children.

[david]

My xBPDw used to rage at me through emails. I stopped engaging a few years ago to these kinds of emails. She had the kids convinced, in the beginning, that I was the problem. I stayed focused on the kids needs and eventually her true colors came out and they could see. I noticed as the boys got older she attacked them. I think it was a control thing and she did not know how to deal with kids expressing themselves when they disagreed with her. Our S14 gets the brunt of her anger when they are with her. Lately, she has been yelling at our S9. He is at the age where he is questioning things more and speaking up more. This is not sitting well with her. They are learning to "pick their battles" with her.

[DreamGirl]

My stepkids' Mama tends to only yell in person. She's pretty good unless she has a boyfriend around, then she gets brave and "nasty" as you put it. When they can't seem to get along, most of their phone calls go to voicemail.

The don't email at all.  My husband won't - he's not a computer guy.  

I'm all about email-only communication for parents in high-conflict. It allows for cooling down periods and well thought out responses. It also eliminates the face to face arguing. Only downfall is that I think it sometimes gives each parent a certain bravery that you wouldn't say in person. It also takes away tone and facial expressions along with the human aspect of relationships.

I think it is terribly important to reduce the parental conflict in our children's life. By any means necessary. Some need to have email only and little interaction where others, like my husband have learned communication skills (like SET) to keep the situation neutralized. You have to find the right fit and not be attached to the nastiness.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if they could see this mess.

Easier for who? Them? You? Both?

Every parenting book out there says not to argue in front of the children. She's actually doing the right thing by keeping out of earshot of the kids.

All the kids want is to be out of the middle. To be able to love both parents without judgement or having to pick sides. They won't ever see her the way you do. She's their Mama and they will love her for it.  

None of us can truly protect our children from who we are authentically. An alcoholic can hide their drinking but can't hide being drunk. Their mama suffers from a mental illness and acting vicious towards your husband is only one circumstance surrounding her disorder (not regulating anger/black and white thinking). It surely manifests itself in so many other ways - her not holding down employment, jumping from boyfriend to boyfriend, being SuperMom one day and neglectful the next.

They'll have a lifetime of dealing with their Mama.

I know it's frustating with the empty promises and the mask of the Super Mom. I've come to realize that my stepkids' Mama really does just live her life by how she feels. The empty promises aren't a manipulation - I think she believes that she will do what she says she's going to do in that moment. i.e. She'll tell the girls they are going on a grand vacation, but then can't afford it.  

The girls know not to be attached to those promises. It saves them from disappointment. I don't need to remind them nor do I need to save them from it. They also get to love her anyways even though they've realized she's kinda full of it when she comes up with her grand plans... . to buy them a new car, a new wardrobe, take them to DisneyLand, or whatever in-the-moment concoction she comes up with.

It's the antidote to the PA tactics - not to show that she's the problem - but just to show them it doesn't have to be the way mom wants it to be. Show them that they don't have to have anything to do with the problems between mom and dad. They don't have to pick sides.

-DG

[sanemom]

I think it is terribly important to reduce the parental conflict in our children's life. By any means necessary. Some need to have email only and little interaction where others, like my husband have learned communication skills (like SET) to keep the situation neutralized. You have to find the right fit and not be attached to the nastiness.

Sometimes I think it would be easier if they could see this mess.

Easier for who? Them? You? Both?

Every parenting book out there says not to argue in front of the children. She's actually doing the right thing by keeping out of earshot of the kids.

All the kids want is to be out of the middle. To be able to love both parents without judgement or having to pick sides. They won't ever see her the way you do. She's their Mama and they will love her for it.  

I know it's frustating with the empty promises and the mask of the Super Mom. I've come to realize that my stepkids' Mama really does just live her life by how she feels. The empty promises aren't a manipulation - I think she believes that she will do what she says she's going to do in that moment. i.e. She'll tell the girls they are going on a grand vacation, but then can't afford it.  

The girls know not to be attached to those promises. It saves them from disappointment. I don't need to remind them nor do I need to save them from it. They also get to love her anyways even though they've realized she's kinda full of it when she comes up with her grand plans... . to buy them a new car, a new wardrobe, take them to DisneyLand, or whatever in-the-moment concoction she comes up with.

It's the antidote to the PA tactics - not to show that she's the problem - but just to show them it doesn't have to be the way mom wants it to be. Show them that they don't have to have anything to do with the problems between mom and dad. They don't have to pick sides.

-DG

That's just it--I don't think that DSS15 knows not to be attached to her promises--he seems to get his hopes up every single time.  It would be easier to deal with if I didn't see the excitement in his eyes in anticipation of his big birthday gift he will never get.

When I say it would be easier, I guess I mean if they knew a little of what their mom did what what they tell her, they may not feed the beast as often... .  but I think DSS12 is getting that anyway.  DSS12 said he wanted to call his mom when he was upset one time because his dad hadn't come in to nurture him, and he didn't because then "Mom will say you are a bad dad" so I guess he gets it--I don't think DSS15 gets it, though.

[DreamGirl]

In your SS12's situation, I would have let him call his mom. I might have said, "that's OK that mom thinks that, do you think that?" When he answers "No" then you let him know that's what counts.

"Feed the beast"

as in the confrontation between parents?

In your SS12's situation, I would have let him call his mom. I might have said, "that's OK that mom thinks that, do you think that?" When he answers "No" then you let him know that's what counts.

"Feed the beast" as in the confrontation between parents?

What happens if he never "gets it"?

I mean what happens if he continues to think that his mom is the best mom ever?

Then, what do you do? Prove to him that she's not?

I just don't think it's their responsibility, as children, to keep the conflict between parents to a minimum. They just aren't equipped in doing that. I get not letting them triangulate between parents, but to expect them to not cause drama isn't really fair to them. It's their own practice in learning to walk on eggshells.

-DG

[sanemom]

In your SS12's situation, I would have let him call his mom. I might have said, "that's OK that mom thinks that, do you think that?" When he answers "No" then you let him know that's what counts.

"Feed the beast"

as in the confrontation between parents?

What happens if he never "gets it"?

I mean what happens if he continues to think that his mom is the best mom ever?

Then, what do you do? Prove to him that she's not?

In your SS12's situation, I would have let him call his mom. I might have said, "that's OK that mom thinks that, do you think that?" When he answers "No" then you let him know that's what counts.

"Feed the beast" as in the confrontation between parents?

What happens if he never "gets it"?

I mean what happens if he continues to think that his mom is the best mom ever?

Then, what do you do? Prove to him that she's not?

I just don't think it's their responsibility, as children, to keep the conflict between parents to a minimum. They just aren't equipped in doing that. I get not letting them triangulate between parents, but to expect them to not cause drama isn't really fair to them. It's their own practice in learning to walk on eggshells.

-DG

In that situation, we had no idea he was thinking that until weeks after the event when he told the counselor.  He has his own cell phone--he most certainly could have called his mom.  I am betting he didn't want to because HE didn't want to hear his mom talk about what a horrible dad his dad is--I believe that was the point he was trying to get across to the counselor. 

Just thinking/processing out loud here--don't they need to learn how to navigate a relationship with mom (especially as teens)?  The situation I am thinking where they "fed the beast" was one where DSS15 let BM know that he had found a gun in our house in a place he wasn't supposed to be--he didn't let us know he found it.  There is no ammo anywhere in the house, it was not illegal, and the gun was my DH's gun from childhood.  Suddenly, we get threatened by BPD mom with prosecution for a crime.  We are spending money on lawyers to make sure we are ok and protected legally.  It is ridiculous.  I do think at 15 he needs to learn to figure out who are "safe people" he can trust and who are not "safe people", even if that means that his BPD mom is not a "safe person" to share certain things with.  I did not have a disordered parent, and those were valuable lessons for me in general in terms of who can be trusted with personal information and who could not. 

[Thunderstruck]

No, D8's uBPDmom rages on her just like she rages on everyone else. D8 will tell everyone around that "My mom yells a lot". D8 has said that her mom will be yelling so loud that the neighbors come and knock on the door. The old neighbors told SO that all they heard was yelling and crying coming from the house.

I think it helps us with the parental alienation because D8 knows her mom is angry with most people, not just me and her dad in particular.

[mamachelle]

Hi sanemom,

It's funny because, BPDbioMom in my case loves guns. Her family always take my SS out shooting when they go visit. That's another story for another day... .  

So, I guess what I am reading into this is that both of your SS have learned to keep secrets and be selective in their information sharing.

They are teen and pre-teen and pretty much wired to trust their mom.

If you share your concerns that they should feel safe talking to you first that is the best you can do.

Believe me, they are well aware of their mom's issues. They live with her, they deal with her inconsistencies and anger all the time.

They are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

That is a key concept in DBT and it should help you feel better that there really is not much you can do to protect them from her at this point except what you are doing by operating transparently, honestly, and with as much love and structure as you can.

Mamachelle

[sanemom]

So, I guess what I am reading into this is that both of your SS have learned to keep secrets and be selective in their information sharing.

They are teen and pre-teen and pretty much wired to trust their mom.

If you share your concerns that they should feel safe talking to you first that is the best you can do.

Believe me, they are well aware of their mom's issues. They live with her, they deal with her inconsistencies and anger all the time.

They are doing the best they can under the circumstances.

That is a key concept in DBT and it should help you feel better that there really is not much you can do to protect them from her at this point except what you are doing by operating transparently, honestly, and with as much love and structure as you can.

Mamachelle

Well, they don't live with her--they only are with her 1st, 3rd, and 5th weekend, but I think they are finally beginning to understand.  Ironically, the 12 year old understands more than the 15 year old.  I don't think she is one who rages in front of the kids... .  she is more the waif type who rages through emails.

[mamachelle]

Hey sanemom,

I think it just takes time and being disappointed over and over. But still you just can't expect them to ever 'get it' like you do. Kids just want to believe that mom will be ok. They probably also worry a lot about her. My 3SS do.

The kids are exposed to strange behaviors for sure. And waif, becomes queen, becomes... .    these personalities are interchangeable and it is hard for us Nons to understand who have not had a parent like that. I had a Smom that was UNPD and she could shift and snap pretty quickly. If Biomom is telling them about court cases, promising presents, promising checks in the mail, moving around, only having them on a few weekends, all that adds up to things not being quite right at all. They get that. Most of the other kids they know probably live with their mom. I am in the same boat with my SS and it is hard sometimes for me to grock that I am their primary caretaking mama even though I am stepmama.

I have seen and heard from my DH memories--- and the kids now-- how their mom acts in private and it never ceases to make me concerned and uneasy.  I think if your boys are good kids and staying out of trouble for the most part then that is half the battle.


mamachelle

[Pidge]

No, not the only BPD mom.

My husband's ex UBPD is usually much better with the kids (ages 16-23) than with us. With the kids, her biggest issue seems to be that her feelings and needs are more important than what is best for the kids, but she seems to believe that she is "protecting" the kids. Kids walk on eggshells with her, not wanting her to be unhappy. With my H and more recently me, she can be downright mean and vindictive.

I want the kids to love their mom, and respect her, and spend as much time with her as they want, while also having boundaries about who's feelings they are responsible for (their own).

I think you struggle with a similar question I do, which is, how to show respect for mom with the kids(no badmouthing ever!), while also validating their own experiences with things that are... . off. And not really wanting her to be the prime role model for how to be in the world, since her worldview leads to so much pain.

I'd love to know how other parents balance those things. Two things that I've said to them so far are "Your mom is a big girl, you can let her handle her own feelings." And "Everyone you know, including me, is a combination of role model and cautionary tale. It is your job to figure out which part is which."

[paxfamilia]

"My experience with BPDmom was that she was horrified when she found out that my NonH had shared her abusive, nasty, texts with me early on in our marriage. Some were about me. She was upset , angry and embarrassed when she found out. "

That may be your experience, but maybe it's just a wrong interpretation.  Angry, yes. Embarrassed, no.  I do not think BPs are capable of shame, nor empathy.  Those things require a moral code, and they were invalidated/confused so much as kids, they don't have those things.  They are capable of feeling 'attacked' in lieu of feeling shame, but I don't think they feel embarrassed by getting caught in their bad behavior; they don't have that developed of a conscience, because if they did, they wouldn't be BP.

It is more likely she is a higher functioning BP with sociopath traits (if not straight out socio-pathology).  The ones that hide it from others, and selectively pick when they choose to lose impulse control, do it on purpose, as a tactical fight.  They want to hide their craziness on purpose, and wage their 'silent' war on the one who spurned them.  They will use the kids as pawns in other ways to wage that war, but most likely not rage in front of them.  They will fight over visitation, school activities, extra curricular activities, etc.  And try to make the non seem unreasonable.  Or do the catch situation where the claim "I offered" but of course what they offered was totally not equal or unfair, but project the blame on you the NON.

What I do, most would think unethical, but then I want to win my kids away from splitting, denial, mental illness, etc.  If they are teens, show them the nasty emails.  I guarantee you those kids ALREADY know they are pawns in a fight, no matter HOW hard she has tried to 'be nice'.  I thinks it's easier for them to flat out know the truth, so when she does things to them (which she will and has), then they don't internalize it, wonder where the hell that is coming from, and They are not invalidated, which leads to depressions and BP stinking thinking.  You let kids keep being invalidated, they become BP.

[DreamGirl]

That may be your experience, but maybe it's just a wrong interpretation.  Angry, yes. Embarrased, no.  I do not think BPs are capable of shame, nor empathy.  Those things require a moral code, and they were invalidated/confused so much as kids, they don't have those things.  They are capable of feeling 'attacked' in lieu of feeling shame, but I dont' think they feel embarrassed by getting caught in their bad behavior; they don't have that developed of a conscience, because if they did, they wouldn't be BP.

It is more likely she is a higher functioning BP with sociopathic traits (if not straight out sociopathology).  The ones that hide it from others, and selectively pick when they choose to lose impulse control, do IT ON PURPOSE, as a tacital fight.  They want to hide their craziness on purpose, and wage their 'silent' war on the one who spurned them.  They will use the kids as pawns in other ways to wage that war, but most likely not rage in front of them.  They will fight over visitation, school activities, extra curricular activities, etc.  And try to make the non seem unreasonable.  Or do the catch situation where the claim "I offered" but of course what they offered was totaly not equal or unfair, but project the blame on you the NON.

I do think that sometimes a pwBPD can exhibit what feels like ASPD (sociopathy) to us - and where there certainly can be a cormobidity of ASPD with BPD (or histrionic or narcississtic or obsessive compulsive) - but it's only true of some individuals, not all who are suffering from BPD. One of my favorite quotes in Kreger's Stop Walking on Eggshells is "Just because you feel like you're being manipulated, doesn't mean it was the intent"

I love this description from our Resource Center on DIFFERENCES/COMORBIDITY: Borderline and Antisocial Personality Disorder:

Borderlines are not anti-social, they have a tremendous desire to bond with people.  Borderlines fear being alone.  They suffer annihilation fantasies and quickly try to find relief in the rewarding attachment to others.  Their intense fear of being alone causes impulsive attachments- but these are very deeply felt as significant- at least until the attachment becomes persecutorial, which it always does.  This is the crux of the disorder.  The sociopath persecutes others and relishes in his anti-social nature.  The Borderline actually grieves a badly internalized parental persecution.

The (Aspd) sociopath uses every opportunity to screw up and then elicit pity from others- as game play.  He uses pity to win- and he uses others as disposable commodities after they come to his rescue. He knows he is doing wrong and understands that he may get into trouble as it is a part of the game- which has him already factoring in a story for *why he deserves the pity* for when he gets caught.   This is a conscious manipulation that places the Aspd in a one-upmanship.  This also implies he has a sense of himself as smarter than others.  He also feels no remorse because he feels this is his due.

Borderlines don't think they are better than you- they *are* you. They choose other people to define their sense of self.  They are chameleons for attachment survival- not as con jobs.

Whatever you choose to send out to the World to define you- is picked up on and then mirrored back to you by the Borderline - to get your approval- and to bond with you. A sociopath could care less who you are and only whether or not you can be used.  A Borderline actually looks up to you.

Borderlines will retreat into detached protector mode when they are caught in omissions of truth. The detached protector mode does not have a clear understanding of the reasons why the behaviors are unsuitable which generally creates avoidance and passive aggression as defensive styles. The Sociopath knows why the behaviors are unsuitable and takes pride in the knowing.  

These kiddos DO have higher risk factors in their development. Absolutely. Studies have shown that having one mentally healthy (and grounded) parent reduces those risks by quite a bit. The courts and mental health professionals advise, as a constant, not to involve these children in the conflict between parents - because it's not going to help them. If one side is involving them, it's really important not to "prove" to them your side of the argument. Just to keep reinforcing the value of "you're allowed to love both parents. You don't need to pick a side."

-DreamGirl