An About-face - how to proceed?

[arabella]

Was going to post this in the old thread I had going, but this is sort of a new thing so... .  

This morning I tentatively broached the subject of the looming separation (he moves out in 3 days). I say I think we need to discuss what's going on and how we're going to handle it. H agrees (that was already an improvement over prior attempts at conversation). So then H tells me that he's thinking we're going to have a 'therapeutic separation' and trying to fix things. Dating each other while having some space to work on our issues and trying to improve our r/s. He has never even hinted at this line of thinking before. I asked if he was excited about the move, getting his own place... .  He said he's just ambivalent now, can't be bothered to really organize moving because he doesn't really care about it. Okay, up until now he's been saying he feels 'claustrophobic' and was desperate to get away. what the heck? Wait, it gets better... .  

THEN he said that the trip overseas to see the GF was a mistake. He thinks it wasn't good for our r/s and he shouldn't have gone. Bear in mind I had said nothing about the trip, I didn't even hint at the GF issue. So, umm... .   I am currently patting myself on the back for not just blurting out, "Well obviously you friggin' idiot!" All I said was, "umm, well, at least you got to see country x, the pictures are nice" (Sorry, not very validating, but I was taken so off-guard on that one!)

So this is all nice and everything but... .  is the other shoe going to drop? I'm bewildered. And nervous.

Some of you may recall that I had said H had been acting differently of late. More his old, stable, 'normal' self. I was thinking maybe the new meds had kicked in and were helping. Right. So maybe this is part of that? Maybe I'm taking too much out of this because it's what I wanted to hear? I'm so confused. Thoughts please? Anyone? Anything?

Also, I am going to take this break in the clouds though to re-open the idea of couples therapy for us. If he agrees, I have two options for Ts. One is a BPD specialist but he's more into treating individuals rather than couples (but he will do couples counselling - I asked). He seems very knowledgable about BPD and is aware of the challenges. My insurance won't cover him so I'd have to pay out of pocket and H is really worried about money right now. Option 2 specializes in solutions-based couples T. He has a lot of experience and says he is confident dealing with pwBPD or other personality disorders (again, I asked). He is into healing the r/s dynamic rather than treating the people separately. He worked for a number of years in a psych hospital and now also acts as a clinical supervisor for other therapists. My insurance will cover all of his fees. So, the question: which would you chose and why? Any insight will help me make a decision so just toss out ideas if you have them!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maria1]

Hi Arabella

OK you said thoughts- anything, anyone! So my thoughts, honestly and from somebody who recognises me in you and recognises my BPDex in your husband. I also could see my ex and I getting back together just in the way you describe happened 10 years ago and then fast forward 10 years and I'm just where you are now.

So... . my thoughts are that he instinctively feels you withdrawing and he is readjusting the picture to offer you a new framework that will stop him from losing you. Because he wants his new life but he doesn't want to lose you. You are his rock and he needs to keep you there somehow. And it would work beautifully for both of you in a way, except he is living with his girlfriend and really thinks he can keep that from you?

My ex did something similar. I can't compare our situations properly because we had only been together 10 months but, toward the end of our r/s he started to become slightly nasty toward me. It was after we'd got incredibly close and I'd gone away for a few days. He began to test me, push me, wear me out. I started to feel there was something really wrong. BUT I didn't say anything to him. His response was to dump me but say we had to stay best friends and insist he saw me just as much, we just wouldn't sleep together. He had another woman lined up for a relationship but that didn't work out and he just became more and more dysregulated. I don't think he counted on me finding out about the girlfriend.

He wants to keep hold of you and he wants to play with her. I am afraid I have nothing to offer in terms of advice as I'm not a good stayer. I wish you strength and I'm really feeling for you here and admiring you so much 

[Grey Kitty]

  Way to not JADE or do an I-told-you-so, I-knew-better-but-didn't-tell-you-so!

 Sorry to hear that everything has been so crazy lately... .  This is incredibly better than before... .  but as they say... .  It wouldn't take much to clear that bar!

Well, thought #1 about therapists: Sometimes you have to go for a session or two and figure out if it is going to work or not. I've done it with my wife on three occasions. First time, we had a recommendation for a great T and it was very helpful (Very old wise guy, probably dead by the next time). Years later, we went lookin gagain. First one triggered my wife BADLY. (didn't go back) Second one we both agreed wasn't going to push us to do anything. (And later a friend confirmed that he did nothing over more sessions for her!) The third was very helpful. (She then changed jobs/moved/something, so we couldn't go back a year or two later.) Most recently we then found another T, and got some good stuff from her too. If you whatever you choose, you may need a "Plan B."

Thought #2: I know I've seen a workshop on the problems doing couples therapy with a pwBPD before... .  but I can't find it now. What I remember is that many have found it to be ineffective... .  although there are exceptions, myself being one.

Something like DBT for him would probably be much more effective, but that is a whole 'nuther can of worms.

My last thought is that same sort of caution you gave yourself earlier--The roller coaster isn't in the scary part of the ride anymore. But that doesn't mean he's left the circus! It is so hard to know anything for sure.

GK

[iluminati]

Reading the details and following along from the last thread, it looks like he got nailed dead to rights, and is now trying to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.  He's picked up on the fact that you want out, and now he wants to talk.  I can't tell you whether to accept him back or not.  That's ultimately your call.  You do have to realize that the ball is in your court.

Here is what I would do.  I would mention the BPD specialist, full stop.  I've seen regular therapists deal with pwBPD.  Forget the situation being like being a knife to a gun fight.  It's more like bringing a knife to a war complete with fighter jets and intercontinental ballistic missiles.  Unless you have some sort of fetish for watching therapists screw up, or having our wonderful for-profit insurance system get drained for money, I wouldn't bother with the regular therapist.  It would be a waste of everyone's time.

Also, I second the idea that marriage counseling is not a good idea.  If your husband has no idea of who he is, how can he arrive at a compromise?  In order to compromise, you need to have two separate parties with different agendas.  Your husband, with his unstable sense of self, isn't one of those parties.  It's not going to work out. 

By the way, are you getting help for yourself?  Have you gotten any in the past?  It would help.  And to answer your question from a previous thread, it isn't that coping mechanisms are bad per se.  It's just that some are healthier that others.  Pay attention to when he wants to step out.  Notice a pattern?  Think about it.

[Blazing Star]

Is this the winds of change or just a cycle? A tough one!   

It is true that rarely does couple counseling work for pwBPD. We tried many, we are both seeing our own Ts now, have for the past 2 years, when things are good they are great, but I am still not sure we would be ready for couples counseling yet. Does he see his own T?

It is your choice though, and an important one, so like Grey Kitty suggests, I would arrange to see both for a session or two and go with your gut on it.

Let us know how it goes!

Love Blazing Star

[arabella]

Thanks for the replies, guys/ladies - much appreciated!

I have read a few threads (and I think that workshop you mentioned, GK) about couples counselling with pwBPD, so I do see what you're saying. I'm rather wary myself. I guess that's why I haven't just jumped on into it. I'm not entirely sure what I'm hoping to get out of it, but my H's P thinks we should do it. So that's sort of put the idea in H's mind that we have to. In another thread I discussed how my H's P is a bit of an idiot who unfortunately really doesn't understand BPD. And that's all the therapy H has been getting up until now.  He was starting to look into getting into a local BPD out patient treatment clinic here, but then he dysregulated and that went out the window. I'm going to gently nudge him in that direction again but it's a major commitment and the waiting list is very long (they said it could be over a year to wait).

Part of the thing with this 'new' H that I'm seeing is that it's not just directed at me (which would be highly suspicious). He's suddenly sleeping better, seeing friends again, taking up his old hobbies, laughing at jokes, etc. So it's not just him 'pulling', I don't think? But maybe that's just what I want to believe? I don't necessarily trust my judgement. It's making things difficult to navigate since I don't really know who/what I'm dealing with!

So here's the thing, when H is his 'normal' self he doesn't really meet the diagnostic criteria for BPD. He's really quite stable and reasonable, able to compromise, etc. If I didn't know about BPD and didn't have the warnings ringing in my head, I would have happily gone off to see a couples T with no hesitation. I don't know how similar others' situations are to my own so it's hard to compare and predict. Also, I can't tell if I'm going to T with BPDh or with recoveringH - it makes a difference because one of them is, well, classic BPD, and the other is very much not.

The thing with the BPD guy is that I'm not sure I can afford enough sessions to make it effective. Plus, he was very focussed on teaching me coping skills while working separately to help H but kept saying he didn't think H would keep going so just to focus on myself. This isn't really the goal if I'm looking for couples counselling, even though I completely understand where he's coming from. He said he very rarely deals with couples since the pwBPD almost never agrees to to it (fair enough). My main worry with the other guy (that I have insurance for) is what Illuminati said about taking a knife into a war zone. But then, it's not much of a war zone when H is feeling well... .  But I don't want to blow my chances here... .  

Oh, and as far as I can tell, the GF isn't going to be coming back from overseas in the immediate future. I want to ask about this and how he's feeling about things now (as opposed to a few weeks ago) but... .  I'm too scared. I'm afraid he'll dysregulate. I know it's eggshells. I know I need to know what's going on. I'm just not sure how to best approach something we've already fought over?

[Grey Kitty]

Thought #1: You don't have "just one shot at therapy." If you decide you want to try it and your H agrees to try it, you see what happens. If it doesn't help, then you are somewhere near square one... .  and you can consider therapy later, with a different therapist.

It might be a little harder to talk your H into it a second time... .  but whatever happens, that is a new problem, a new opportunity anyhow. Saying to yourself "This is my only chance" just raises the stakes for yourself without helping anything.


Thought #2: The form of spontaneous remission of BPD that you are wondering about is pretty rare. But as you did see it from your H 10 years ago, It don't think it should be ruled out. If this is remission, conventional couples T sounds better again.

What sort of signs were there last time he went into remission?

Thought #3: He is moving out in a couple days, and you are still figuring out what that is going to look like.

I normally don't suggest "wait around and see what happens" on these boards, but in this case, a week from now, you will know a lot more about the landscape. So you may be better able to choose.

... .  when it comes to asking about his current/latest status with his GF... .  I don't expect wait and see to be your friend there. I think you better brave some eggshells. Think about how to bring it up with him though--Validation or other tools will be critical if he is BPDh today. They shouldn't cause any ill effects with recoveringH; in fact they are likely to help there too.

Hope this helps!

[jedicloak]

I have a thought to offer as I have been on this journey a LONG while and have been down the counseling road forever and a day. I think we can agree BPD is a chronic, long term personality disorder. It's the way the person is and how they get along in the world.

Yes, it's possible they can recognize that their way of coping isn't getting them what they want. Yes, it's possible medication can help their symptoms stabilize their moods (and behaviors).

My understanding of what a pwBPD would need to do to be a more individuated person includes a few options to gain/define their identity, their values, etc. Lots of therapy with DBT to manage their wild moods, CBT to challenge their thinking, AA or some sort of 12 step program to get honest and have accountability and do the very hard work of facing their fear (denial).

Otherwise, couples therapy remains a scenario of putting Band-Aids on severed limbs (the pwBPD has the severed limb). They can't effectively do couples therapy because they honestly have no idea what they want, except for their internal pain to stop and they will try anything (again and again and again) to fill them up (in this case, maintain the status quo of keeping this "r/s" going, such as it is). But as someone on these boards mentioned, they are an emotional black hole. Until they resolve that issue (which has nothing to do with their SO), then nothing lasting will happen... .  in my experience. 

The severed limb which is still bleeding must be addressed adequately before healing can begin... .  or else they just bleed on you.

[iluminati]

If I'm reading you correctly, I'm seeing exactly 3 things:

1) Your H's Pdoc being pretty much useless.

2) The BPD expert saying that you should focus on coping skills.

3) Your uncertainty that the new standard psychotherapist will treat your husband well.

So you have the regular therapist angling for your insurance money, while the specialist is telling you to work on yourself, knowing good and hell well it could cost him business.

I'll put it to you like this.  If you regular internist swore your heart was fine, but an out-of-network cardiologist who didn't have your business said your heart was in major trouble, who would you listen to?

[arabella]

Excellent input, GK - I needed that! So, your thoughts:

#1 - good reminder. You're right, I probably shouldn't take such a fatalistic approach. I guess I'm just worried that if it goes badly H will get his back up and be resistant to doing anything further. And I really really don't want it to put him off getting his own individual T. I'll have an easier time convincing him to do couples T though and then I'm hoping that T suggests individual T for H (so it's not just me saying it to 'manipulate him'

#2 - so the remission thing, yes... .  I think that's what Blazing Star was questioning too. Is it truly a change or just a brief pull phase? I don't think it's spontaneous, it coincides very neatly with the recent change in medication and the expected window to see results from that particular drug. Last time I wasn't around as much when he went into remission (he'd already moved out) but the mood shift is similar, I think: less agitated/irritable, more patient/calm, more energetic, general reasonableness... .  And a sudden realization that things he previously thought we 'necessary' (moving out, dumping me, isolating himself, etc) were, in fact, big mistakes. A total change of mind about large issues - e.g. last time he dumped the gf, decided she was nuts (she was actually), started apologizing, wanted to hang out more, stopped getting angry with me over things, etc.

Another odd thing, if someone wants to venture an opinion: each time he dysregulated he suddenly tried to renew his r/s with his FOO. When he's stable he avoids them as much as possible because he knows they're extremely unhealthy to be around (father is NPD, sister is diagnosed bipolar/BPD). When he's dysregulated he becomes convinced that they aren't that bad and that anyone who says otherwise is trying to isolate him.

#3 - Trying to be patient. Patience sometimes seems like eggshells but I don't want to get ahead of myself here. You may be right that waiting to see might be the best bet. As re the GF... .  I'm not sure what I need to ask, I think that's a lot of the problem. He doesn't want to discuss it now so he is purposely vague unless I ask pointed questions. You can see how this gets tense. I may test out the waters again tomorrow though (too tired for a good conversation tonight so I know better than to try).

[arabella]

If I'm reading you correctly, I'm seeing exactly 3 things:

1) Your H's Pdoc being pretty much useless.

2) The BPD expert saying that you should focus on coping skills.

3) Your uncertainty that the new standard psychotherapist will treat your husband well.

So you have the regular therapist angling for your insurance money, while the specialist is telling you to work on yourself, knowing good and hell well it could cost him business.

I'll put it to you like this.  If you regular internist swore your heart was fine, but an out-of-network cardiologist who didn't have your business said your heart was in major trouble, who would you listen to?

1) Yes.

2) Yes. But, while I know I have problems, I have other supports in place and my coping skills are not my main concern at this point.

3) Yes.

Oddly, the couples T thinks I will be paying out of pocket and the BPD guy thinks I have insurance. They came to these conclusions on their own (prob b/c I contacted them directly rather than through a network and the BPD guy is with a clinic that sees a lot of wealthier clients who prob usually have insurance - just a guess though).

Based on your example... .  I'd probably ask for details from each and also get a third opinion.

[arabella]

Jedicloak - agreed. He needs individual therapy, no doubt there. This band-aid is sort of a 'what to do in the meantime approach'. I guess I'm looking at it as a band-aid or bridge for our r/s until he can get in to see a good BPD T on his own. Part of the problem is convincing him that the problem is not r/s specific and that he actually needs individual T. So I'm hoping doing the couples thing will make him feel we've done something 'new' for our r/s and show him I'm willing to work too, it's not just him, and I'm also hoping that the couples T we see will tell us both to get individual T. I figure this is pretty much guaranteed unless the person is a complete idiot - but I don't rule out finding a complete idiot as we already have H's P.

Question: does this make sense or am I just making excuses? I don't want to be sitting here in denial, but I don't want to over dramatize it all either.

[iluminati]

Question: does this make sense or am I just making excuses? I don't want to be sitting here in denial, but I don't want to over dramatize it all either.

I can't speak for Jedicloak, but from my perspective, yes, you're making excuses.  So let's say you worked on your coping skills.  Tell me the worse thing that would happen.

[connect]

Hi arabella

just wanted to say that my bf displays the same traits with his FOO. He really has no respect for his mother and avoids her, he says she is weak and manipulative. He becomes very agitated after seeing her even if both him and her are both calm and have a good day. When he is disregulated though he runs straight to her. I have never understood this either!

X

[arabella]

I can't speak for Jedicloak, but from my perspective, yes, you're making excuses.  So let's say you worked on your coping skills.  Tell me the worse thing that would happen.

Sorry, Illuminati, I didn't mean for that question to be directed just at jedicloak!

I AM working on my coping skills (quite a bit actually). I've got books, I've joined a local support group, I come here, etc. I just can't afford to pay that T's fees just for learning coping skills for myself. I'm currently unemployed and I really, truly, can't afford that when I can teach myself those skills in other ways. I need the limited money I have for couples T and/or H's individual T (unless I give up on one of those).

[arabella]

Hi arabella

just wanted to say that my bf displays the same traits with his FOO. He really has no respect for his mother and avoids her, he says she is weak and manipulative. He becomes very agitated after seeing her even if both him and her are both calm and have a good day. When he is disregulated though he runs straight to her. I have never understood this either!

X

So maybe it is a symptom of the BPD. It's so odd. Maybe a reversion to childhood or something? It doesn't matter the 'whys' of it I guess, but it does confuse me. And, of course, his FOO compounds the problems and they know how to push every button.

[iluminati]

I can't speak for Jedicloak, but from my perspective, yes, you're making excuses.  So let's say you worked on your coping skills.  Tell me the worse thing that would happen.

Sorry, Illuminati, I didn't mean for that question to be directed just at jedicloak!

I AM working on my coping skills (quite a bit actually). I've got books, I've joined a local support group, I come here, etc. I just can't afford to pay that T's fees just for learning coping skills for myself. I'm currently unemployed and I really, truly, can't afford that when I can teach myself those skills in other ways. I need the limited money I have for couples T and/or H's individual T (unless I give up on one of those).

You're ducking the question.  I know, because I paid for therapy while unemployed before.  So, what would happen if a therapist taught you coping skills?

[arabella]

I suppose I don't know what you mean, Illuminati. Or, I do, but I'm not sure where you're going with it? I've answered below, but I may have missed the point.

Literally what would happen? Either I would learn something new and that would be nice to add to my arsenal (though tbh I'm not sure how much more I need for myself in terms of BPD specific interaction - I think I need more just for my own issues); or I wouldn't and then I would be extremely pissed off that I wasted my time and money and be very frustrated (and without money to boot). So the worst would be the latter scenario.

[Grey Kitty]

I can't say what iluminati means... .  but I do see one glaring issue in this thread:

You are asking about couples therapy... .  But the actual reason for you and your H to be in couples T isn't clearly stated.

You have mentioned that you hope the couples T would say that you both need individual T.

You have acknowledged that BPD specialist T thinks you need to work on coping skills. (mostly individual)

I'm pretty sure you want your H to have individual T, even if I don't remember you saying it in this thread.

How would you prioritize  the three kinds of T right now? Individual for Arabella, Individual for your H, and Couples?

[Blazing Star]

So here's the thing, when H is his 'normal' self he doesn't really meet the diagnostic criteria for BPD. He's really quite stable and reasonable, able to compromise, etc. If I didn't know about BPD and didn't have the warnings ringing in my head, I would have happily gone off to see a couples T with no hesitation. I don't know how similar others' situations are to my own so it's hard to compare and predict. Also, I can't tell if I'm going to T with BPDh or with recoveringH - it makes a difference because one of them is, well, classic BPD, and the other is very much not.

Oh, and as far as I can tell, the GF isn't going to be coming back from overseas in the immediate future. I want to ask about this and how he's feeling about things now (as opposed to a few weeks ago) but... .  I'm too scared. I'm afraid he'll dysregulate. I know it's eggshells. I know I need to know what's going on. I'm just not sure how to best approach something we've already fought over?

Mine is similar, when he is good things are normal and it is great. However we do cycle, his moods go up and down. He is quite capable of being rational and even empathetic when not in BPDland, and wouldn't fit the criteria. However the moment he gets triggered it starts to slide back to BPDland. So I guess that would be my fear, I don't think it can be so easily switched on and off, I do think the skills like DBT are necessary for recovery. I don't think it is a matter of either BPD or Normal, rather it is which one is running the show at the moment.

And re the GF question - I think this illustrates the above perfectly, you are saying he is in recovery, but that you know this will trigger him and he will dysregulate.

I know it can be scary when you have to ask questions. This feeling is one I have been working on with my own T. I think the timing - with him in good space is great - will work in your favour. If it were me I would sit down with him and say "Baby, there is something I want to ask you, and I am scared it will trigger you, you have been doing really well recently. I feel a lot of anxiousness around this, so please humour me. It seems like GF isn't going to be visiting for a while... .  "

Just thought as I didn't know how to finish the above - are you asking this for him or for you? Is it something you need to know, or something that you want to reach out and connect with him over?

If 1. "... .  and I would really like to know if she plans to"

If 2. "... .  and I am wondering how you are feeling about this. You know I care about you, I am aware that this could be upsetting for you, and I just want you to know that I am here if you want to talk about it".

Love Blazing Star

[iluminati]

I suppose I don't know what you mean, Illuminati. Or, I do, but I'm not sure where you're going with it? I've answered below, but I may have missed the point.

Literally what would happen? Either I would learn something new and that would be nice to add to my arsenal (though tbh I'm not sure how much more I need for myself in terms of BPD specific interaction - I think I need more just for my own issues); or I wouldn't and then I would be extremely pissed off that I wasted my time and money and be very frustrated (and without money to boot). So the worst would be the latter scenario.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have some serious doubts that therapy would help, and that the best way to help yourself is for your husband to get help, either through couples counseling or on his own.

If that isn't codependent, then I don't know what is.

It's obvious that your husband has issues.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be here right now.  Ultimately, you have to help yourself.  The only way you can help your husband get better is if you get yourself together.  Even then, he would have to sincerely want to go along, not do it because he's afraid of missing out on some benefit.  You need to go get help for yourself.  The fact that you seem to believe you can't be helped is a sign that you can be.  Doubts are a sign of self-awareness, and to a certain extent they are a good thing.  You need to focus on yourself and your issues.  Only then can you move forward.

[arabella]

Phew! Okay, I get it, I think. Let me see if I can clarify at all.

I can't say what iluminati means... .  but I do see one glaring issue in this thread:

You are asking about couples therapy... .  But the actual reason for you and your H to be in couples T isn't clearly stated.

You have mentioned that you hope the couples T would say that you both need individual T.

You have acknowledged that BPD specialist T thinks you need to work on coping skills. (mostly individual)

I'm pretty sure you want your H to have individual T, even if I don't remember you saying it in this thread.

How would you prioritize  the three kinds of T right now? Individual for Arabella, Individual for your H, and Couples?

Reason: H's P thinks we need it. Even if I don't agree that it will be helpful, H uses our lack of trying, since P recommended it, as a sign that I'm not committed to making things work. Plus, yes, I want another person, a professional, to suggest individual T to H so that he'll be more likely to go.

BPD specialist thinks I need coping skills. I think this is pretty basic for a T, right? I mean, who is going to recommend NOT having coping skills? Bear in mind I've never met this person and he made this recommendation during a 5 minute phone call. He did not ask if I was already seeing someone else and he assumed I knew nothing about BPD (that much was obvious from what he said). So this wasn't specific to me or my situation per se. If that makes any difference.

Priorities: I'd say T for H, T for me, T for us together. Why? Because I think I'm a slightly better position than H to self-help and self-learn and I am already further along in my own treatment than he is. I've also already had a few T sessions individually myself. I can get all the coping skills in the world, or solve any codependency issues I have, but that is only going to leave me on my own if he doesn't make some progress too. I know the couples T is lowest on the list but, for the reasons up above I'm considering it first.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have some serious doubts that therapy would help, and that the best way to help yourself is for your husband to get help, either through couples counseling or on his own.

If that isn't codependent, then I don't know what is.

It's obvious that your husband has issues.  Otherwise, you wouldn't be here right now.  Ultimately, you have to help yourself.  The only way you can help your husband get better is if you get yourself together.  Even then, he would have to sincerely want to go along, not do it because he's afraid of missing out on some benefit.  You need to go get help for yourself.  The fact that you seem to believe you can't be helped is a sign that you can be.  :)oubts are a sign of self-awareness, and to a certain extent they are a good thing.  You need to focus on yourself and your issues.  Only then can you move forward.

I'm not trying to help myself by having my H get help. I'm trying to heal the r/s by having each of us get help. BUT I am already helping myself, have already had a few T sessions myself, and he is/has not. I can't be the only person responsible for the health of our marriage. I don't doubt that I can be helped, I do doubt that this particular T is the person to do that for me. He may be, but I'm not really confident about it. I also don't really just want help "coping" with my H - I want to be healthy not just "coping" along! And coping skills are not the same as working on codependency issues or other things that I think I may want to focus more on at this stage in the game.

*****

Does any of that make sense? I mean, I think I'm clear about where I'm at and where I want to go, but it sounds from the questions and comments here that I'm not really and that I've got it wrong. I'm working on my own issues already, so I'm now looking at what else might aid in the progress... .  No? Yes?

[arabella]

Mine is similar, when he is good things are normal and it is great. However we do cycle, his moods go up and down. He is quite capable of being rational and even empathetic when not in BPDland, and wouldn't fit the criteria. However the moment he gets triggered it starts to slide back to BPDland. So I guess that would be my fear, I don't think it can be so easily switched on and off, I do think the skills like DBT are necessary for recovery. I don't think it is a matter of either BPD or Normal, rather it is which one is running the show at the moment.

And re the GF question - I think this illustrates the above perfectly, you are saying he is in recovery, but that you know this will trigger him and he will dysregulate.

I know it can be scary when you have to ask questions. This feeling is one I have been working on with my own T. I think the timing - with him in good space is great - will work in your favour. If it were me I would sit down with him and say "Baby, there is something I want to ask you, and I am scared it will trigger you, you have been doing really well recently. I feel a lot of anxiousness around this, so please humour me. It seems like GF isn't going to be visiting for a while... .  "

Just thought as I didn't know how to finish the above - are you asking this for him or for you? Is it something you need to know, or something that you want to reach out and connect with him over?

If 1. "... .  and I would really like to know if she plans to"

If 2. "... .  and I am wondering how you are feeling about this. You know I care about you, I am aware that this could be upsetting for you, and I just want you to know that I am here if you want to talk about it".

Love Blazing Star

These are some good things to think about - thank you, Blazing Star!

You are right. The BPD is always there, it's just not necessarily running the show all the time. I think this is why I so want H to get individual T. He needs to learn the skills to deal with his own 'stuff' - DBT sounds like it would be ideal.

So took your advice and I sucked it up and asked about the GF and about our separation. He was maybe a little agitated, but not particularly so. He didn't dysregulate at all. Now he's saying it's a therapeutic separation and he thinks we're planning to see each other and get back to living together in the fall. He thinks I may change my mind and be happy on my own by then though (I didn't comment on this). I said I was worried GF would show up and not like this new plan. He said he doesn't know when/if GF might show up anyway. I said that must be frustrating. He said, "It would be if I cared that much." I said that it must be difficult with having her be away for so long and it dragging on. He said: "Yeah, well I can't see myself caring any more the more time goes by" and she's a "contradiction" and she "can't make up her mind about anything" and that he's "just sick of dealing with it." I just let it go because I had no idea what to say at that point.

So that's where it's at. Of course a therapeutic separation usually involves T. So I'm back to that.

[iluminati]

OK, I see where you're getting at.  I'm not saying have to see that therapist as much as you need to see a therapist.  Still, I do think you need to get help with your codependency.  The key is to clean up your side of the street before you deal with theirs.  I think the same should be true for your husband.

[arabella]

OK, I see where you're getting at.  I'm not saying have to see that therapist as much as you need to see a therapist.  Still, I do think you need to get help with your codependency.  The key is to clean up your side of the street before you deal with theirs.  I think the same should be true for your husband.

Sorry, Illuminati, I realized I left out that I had seen a T on my own... .  I edited my above post but I cross-posted with your reply! Confusing, aren't I?

I think you're right. We need to each clean up our own stuff. I can deal with me (of course), so now I'm trying to figure out the best approach to get him on the same page. I think I'm at least halfway there... .  now it's getting sticky. It is getting a lot easier now that he's more stable. I think Blazing Star is right that I should try to take advantage of this 'window' to gain some headway. I guess I just don't want to blow it!

[jedicloak]

We need to each clean up our own stuff. I can deal with me (of course), so now I'm trying to figure out the best approach to get him on the same page.

This sentence leads me to think about Melody Beatties' Codependent No More book - "we need to get about the business of running our own lives and let everyone else do the same."

He may not want to get on the same page or maybe he does... .  but ultimately, isn't it up to him to get there or not? I'm pretty sure we have no ability to get someone onto the page we want them on... .  yes? no?

[arabella]

This sentence leads me to think about Melody Beatties' Codependent No More book - "we need to get about the business of running our own lives and let everyone else do the same."

He may not want to get on the same page or maybe he does... .  but ultimately, isn't it up to him to get there or not? I'm pretty sure we have no ability to get someone onto the page we want them on... .  yes? no?

Yup! But a r/s is still two people. I can't do it alone. I can't force him onto the same page, but I do have to let him know what page I'm on and give him some options for joining me. I'm not a total narcissist either - it's not all about me. Plus, I will not feel good about how I handled myself if I don't do everything I can to give this r/s a fighting chance.

Perhaps the key here is that I AM getting on with my own business. I am running my life and taking care of my own stuff. I'm doing the work, going to the meetings, reading the literature, checking (and rechecking) my own behaviour, asking for constructive feedback, seeing a T, etc. I'm also trying to get a job, networking, reconnecting with friends, enjoying my hobbies, etc. And now I am looking at my r/s, as a big part of my life, and saying, "Hey bud, if you want this to work you are going to have to do some work too. This is what I need. This is how you can meet that need." But I need to know how to state the need and how to state how he can go about meeting it in a way that is easy for him to absorb and understand. Maybe that sounds like eggshells - I think it's more adapting my approach to be appropriate for my audience.

So, people are always saying that a healthy r/s is like two trees standing beside each other - each firmly rooted and growing on its own, but the branches are entwined at the top. What I'm aiming for here is sharing some fertilizer and trying to prune my own branches without accidentally cutting off some of his. It's a little gnarly up there though... .  

[Grey Kitty]

All the things you ARE doing to work on yourself sound great! 

Plus, I will not feel good about how I handled myself if I don't do everything I can to give this r/s a fighting chance.

That attitude is fantastic as well.

The catch is this--what you really want to do is everything effective you can do for the r/s. Yes, you want your H to be on the right page, and you want him to be on the same page as you. Can you tell him that in a way that isn't invalidating or controlling?

That was one of my big realizations: There were things that I wanted to say to my wife... .  that I was learning would have results more like the opposite of what I was asking for. In those cases, I was better off doing nothing than doing that.

Note: This is a way of thinking about it... .  I wish I had a clear course of action to recommend for you instead.

[Grey Kitty]

Arabella, I just realized that you had already said much of what I just posted, and now I realize two things:

1. I need to go to bed now.

2. Your need for your H to work on his own issues is still too abstract for me to offer something useful.

Can you come up with a more concrete version of what you want him to change?

[jedicloak]

Yup! But a r/s is still two people. I can't do it alone. I can't force him onto the same page, but I do have to let him know what page I'm on and give him some options for joining me.

... .  now I am saying, "Hey bud, if you want this to work you are going to have to do some work too. This is what I need. This is how you can meet that need." But I need to know how to state the need and how to state how he can go about meeting it in a way that is easy for him to absorb and understand.

I understand completely what you're saying! I am exactly in the same situation. I am wanting to present my needs, but I also realize I can't control her doing those things, SO I am trying to figure out what are the consequences going to be if she chooses not to meet my needs... .  ?

Is it a deal breaker? Should my needs be deal breakers? Am I being too difficult?

Do I state the consequences up front - that way she knows what the choice is?

Am I being too petty to have a desire to have a wife that contributes in someway to the finances  of the household, even if that means getting SSI or disability?

I say no. Is it too petty to ask her to not stop her medication when the result is severe emotional dysregulation?

I could go on and on here... .  would love thoughts of you all. Thank you.