An About-face - how to proceed?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Arabella,

Great that you talked to your H, sounds like you did really well there!   

So, people are always saying that a healthy r/s is like two trees standing beside each other - each firmly rooted and growing on its own, but the branches are entwined at the top. What I'm aiming for here is sharing some fertilizer and trying to prune my own branches without accidentally cutting off some of his. It's a little gnarly up there though... .  

It is beautiful that you want to share the fertilizer, and try not to cut his branches as you deal with your own. And what a great observation that it is a little gnarly (emeshed) up there.

How would it feel to gently pull back so the branches that are untangled get a chance to move apart?

How would it feel to not worry about cutting his ones off, as your ones are numero uno?

How would it feel to take all the fertilizer for yourself and let him worry about finding his own?

No right or wrong answers here, just opportunity to explore.

Also the c word has been thrown around a little here, how are you with that? Have you done much reading on codependency? I remember when it was first mentioned to me, I was surprised and offended, but dug a little deeper and whoa, can o' worms!

I don't like it, and feel like it is my cross to carry at the moment while I work on it. Before I knew about it I used to joke that I wasn't in a relationship, rather I was in an entanglement - oh if only I knew how true that was!

Keep up the good work arabella!

Love Blazing Star

[Blazing Star]

Arabella,

Great that you talked to your H, sounds like you did really well there!   

So, people are always saying that a healthy r/s is like two trees standing beside each other - each firmly rooted and growing on its own, but the branches are entwined at the top. What I'm aiming for here is sharing some fertilizer and trying to prune my own branches without accidentally cutting off some of his. It's a little gnarly up there though... .  

It is beautiful that you want to share the fertilizer, and try not to cut his branches as you deal with your own. And what a great observation that it is a little gnarly (emeshed) up there.

How would it feel to gently pull back so the branches that are untangled get a chance to move apart?

How would it feel to not worry about cutting his ones off, as your ones are numero uno?

How would it feel to take all the fertilizer for yourself and let him worry about finding his own?

No right or wrong answers here, just opportunity to explore.

Also the c word has been thrown around a little here, how are you with that? Have you done much reading on codependency? I remember when it was first mentioned to me, I was surprised and offended, but dug a little deeper and whoa, can o' worms!

I don't like it, and feel like it is my cross to carry at the moment while I work on it. Before I knew about it I used to joke that I wasn't in a relationship, rather I was in an entanglement - oh if only I knew how true that was!

Keep up the good work arabella!

Love Blazing Star

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[arabella]

I'm back! Sorry for going MIA there... .  Sometimes real life shows up all at once demanding attention.

Grey Kitty - thank you anyway! Hehe! And as to your question re what I want him to change... .  I want him to stop projecting his lack of trust in himself onto me. i.e. He doesn't trust his own decision-making (probably for good reason right now) but instead of acknowledging that he says that I am trying to manipulate him. I know this is a BPD issue. I know many of the problems we experience as a couple stem from the BPD. I want him to educate himself about BPD and begin working to treat it. I want him to be open to suggestions re his behaviour, even if he ultimately rejects them, rather than dismissing every suggestion out of hand. I want him to begin to develop healthier ways of coping with his emotional states rather than acting on impulse and taking drastic immediate action.

Jedicloak - for me different boundaries and needs have different consequences. Most of them are not 'deal breakers' but rather, attachment breakers, meaning that I need to take a step (or two or three) back. If a need is truly that, a need (rather than, say, a strong want), then you aren't being "too difficult". If you need it, you need it. Full stop. It's a deal breaker. I think whether you tell her the consequences up front depends very much on the situation. For deal breakers I think some forewarning is fair, but it could depend on the circumstances. Could you give an example maybe? As for things like stopping her medication... .  It's not the medication that's the issue, is it? It's the dysregulation. So perhaps your boundary there is: I will not stay in a r/s with someone who is completely emotionally dysregulated and not actively working with all of the tools at her disposal in order to correct it. What do you think?

Blazing Star - as always, you ask some great questions! I enjoy your challenges immensely as I think they really make me evaluate and examine my own thinking. Thank you.

I am not so good at not having other trees around. I get cold and lonely. I like having intertwined branches but I have found that the tangles make me feel bad about myself. I am testing the move further away to see where the 'sweet spot' is! Cutting his errant twigs makes me nervous. Good point there. But I was speaking to someone today about that very thing and I think I've realized that it's inevitable and necessary - it just can't be helped and I need to prune! I am gobbling more fertilizer. The thing with fertilizer though is that it tends to seep outward and sharing is sort of inevitable. I know I sometimes get some of his too when he is able to go out and get his own (which he does).

I've been doing a lot of reading and work on the codep issue. I was pretty determined to have something of my own to work on (hello? control issues much? ) so I wasn't so resistant to the suggestion. I did find that I started to overdo it for awhile. I was becoming convinced that it was ALL me. The codep was ingrained to the point where I had no confidence in my own judgement. I figured everyone else was right - that I was in denial, that I just wanted more control, that I was needy, that everything was motivated by my own selfish codep needs, etc. A few days ago I had a  and realized that no, I do in fact have a brain in my head. I get to determine what is codependent and what is just ME. I get to determine what is healthy for ME. I am finally starting to accept my own conclusions and reject opinions that don't feel right for me or my circumstances. It's quite liberating!

[Grey Kitty]

I'm loving the tree analogy here! Especially because even though my wife isn't throwing BPD issues at me, I do feel that we still have branches that are tangled up in ways that still aren't quite "right."

Arabella, I understand your reluctance to prune your H's branches. Maybe you can "train" them into another direction by tying a rope around them down to a stake in the ground and pulling them out of yours? That image feels a little different than lopping something off.

I really love the concept that fertilizer spreads around naturally. I know that my choices to fertilize myself and become healthier did seem to give my wife room to grow better too!

Then there are the changes you want in your H. They sound like a tall order! I see a few possibilities:

1. Perhaps he will notice that his impulsive drastic action didn't work out so well, and that this is a pattern. If so, maybe he'll ask you for help?

2. You could work on letting go of some of your expectations of him.

3. There is an article and/or a workshop on how to get a pwBPD into DBT or other treatment. It is a difficult and risky undertaking, and worth some research and thought. Actually getting his mental health treated by somebody better qualified than his GP does sound like a good idea... .  but it is harder work than just saying "H, you need better help"

Helping a loved one with BPD seek treatment

TOOLS: "Getting" someone to see a therapist or to get into treatment

You cannot control the person's decision to see a therapist or get into treatment. Put yourself into the other person's place - no one likes to be told what to do or that they need help. So if the approach wouldn't be palatable to you, it probably won't be something the person with BPD will be receptive to either. There are 4 techniques that come from motivational interviewing that may help: Express Empathy; Develop Discrepancy; Roll with Resistance; Support Self-Efficacy       

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76633.0

I think you could use a combination of #2 and #3... .  #1 isn't gonna go anyplace until your H asks for help there.

[arabella]

Train the branches... .  Hmm... . yes... .  

Thank you for those links, GK - I was looking for something along those lines! Especially useful to read right now as we are heading to a T appointment this afternoon and I wasn't sure what to focus on. I think I will mostly be listening for clues as to what my H thinks the problems are (which is probably the best strategy in any event, even for couples not dealing with BPD). Hopefully this will lead us down the right path.

1. I doubt he'll ask me for help outright. He may bounce ideas for himself off of me at some point. That could be a bit of a wait though as he's just starting to regain his own equilibrium. This is okay, I am patient and I know he needs some time to calm down.

2. Oh, that list? Not expectations. Those are wants. I know I might not get what I want but that doesn't stop me from asking (at least on here where it's safe). It's not a perfect world, but those can be long term goals or ideas and they don't have to be fulfilled in their entirety right now. I may decide later that I need all of the list, but for now it's not that critical. One step at a time.

3. I wish it were his GP. It's his psych - a specialist. Makes it harder. On the upside, H doesn't really respect the guy either and he's not local to us. Hoping that I can prompt a switch by playing off the location factor (i.e. get a referral to someone more local, and more experienced in treating BPD!)

So nervous about the T appointment... .  wish me luck!

[NewWays]

arabella... .  

I also struggled with this and early on was very ignorant about the elements and impact of BPD.  Early on in our marriage (8 Years) my dBPDw was diagnosed with BPD and due to other conditions that present with BPD was put on meds.  (Panic, anxiety, mild depression that all had been preceded by an eating disorder) that shortly after the regimen was started by her therapist, she abruptly stopped the meds, indicted her therapist had no idea what he was doing and that she was not going to continue to take medication that had some side effects that she was not going to put up with.

As our marriage clearly appeared to be ending, I tried one last approach that my therapist, who also treats BPD individuals, served up to me that I supported and understood.

I finally understood that moving forward for the ultimate improvement of the marriage takes the commitment and participation of both partners.  Since it was quickly pointed out that when a relationship or marriage begins, both parties are of a free will and want to move in that direction.  The reality further is that both partners decide to become a couple or married jointly…rather than one forcing the other to move into that classification…and much the same holds true to try and repair and improve a marriage as well.  There is a duality to both partners to want to work on improving.

So the last couple of years when I drew brand new boundaries, disengaged during the times of BPD behaviors and reactions,  left when the rage and chaos was spewing over and calmly communicated that I was going for a walk or was going out to not endure as I had in the past the wrath and that it was unacceptable.

This lack of me behaving like I had before and setting boundaries rather than just taking it, unfortunately caused my dBPDw to move into worse rage in less than a millisecond…and then became physically abusive by a left hook or two to my face, throwing books and bottles at me and taunting me when I threatened to call the police for her behavior she yanked the phone out of the wall and stuck it under her blouse.

At that point the writing was on the wall when the dialogue between the two of us related to why I was the cause her anger and that I needed to cease being the cause of her expected and justified reactions since her assessment that I had taken steps to be away from her more often for whatever reason, were the obvious truths and evidence that all this was my fault and her only option was divorce.

The night we sat at the table and I calmly told her that our next move had to be into comprehensive individual therapy first as the start or if she was not in agreement that she had to do what she thought was best and she advised me that divorce was the only option and has since filed for the same.

After doing some DBT research suggested by my therapist of a Dr. Marsha Linehan, the psychologist who developed DBT (…she had a terrible, painful and dangerous teenage period with BPD and now head up the University of Washington behavioral science school) I found Dr. Linehan said it best in a recent piece in the New York Times about a spouse getting help for BPD as a necessary element to help a fractured marriage with one spouse struggling with this disease…”if another person, your partner, your family member is an adult and does not see the need for getting help, it is their right to not do it.  Sorry!”

My experience…hope it helps.

I wish you peace on your path.

mrrlk

[hithere]

is the other shoe going to drop?

My guess is yes and it will drop hard.