Letting go of the life I never had

[Kwamina]

Accepting the past is something I still struggle with a lot. I often think about how my life would have been if my childhood had been different. I find it very hard to accept how my uBPD mother affected me mentally and emotionally. I was too young to have the necessary coping skills that could have protected me and as a result I suffered from anxiety and slid into a depression when I was just 12 years old. The depression changed everything for me, everything I did became much harder. I really wasn't myself for a very long time and living with my uBPD mother made it impossible to heal. I only managed to escape from her clutches a few years ago and have ever since been working on healing myself.

I've not only been thinking but dreaming about the life I never had too lately, dreams about people that got away, lost friendships and relationships. When I wake up I feel a mixture of sadness about the things that have passed me by but also a sense of resignation. One of the things my mother never wanted was for me to have contact with other people and she unfortunately was very successful in isolating me and making me self-isolate. What hurts me the most is the consequences of my mother's behavior, how it affected and changed me as a person. It feels like I was under some sort of spell. The way I interacted with others was completely tainted by the way I was treated at home. I realize I can't change the past but the losses still hurt me. It's like awakening from a bad dream only to realize the nightmare of the past was real and can't be changed which makes me feel powerless all over again. I'm working on changing my present life, but accepting and letting go of my past life ain't easy.

[healinghome]

I hear you and feel that pain too.     i'm so sorry that you are feeling bad.

One of the things my mother never wanted was for me to have contact with other people and she unfortunately was very successful in isolating me and making me self-isolate

it knocks the trust out of us, eh?  its such a brave thing to do to confront this pain and seek healing.  kudos for getting this far    and give yourself a big hug from those who want you to heal and see the good in you. x

[skelly_bean]

"I realize I can't change the past but the losses still hurt me. It's like awakening from a bad dream only to realize the nightmare of the past was real and can't be changed which makes me feel powerless all over again."

I hear you Kwamina... . I'm so sorry you are going through this. It is so hard. I look back on my life and think about the years that were stolen from me, that I spent being abused when I should have spent focusing on making friends, doing homework, doing hobbies, etc. it makes me feel extremely sad and sometimes really bitter. But one thing that helps me feel better is recognizing that my life isn't "over". I have a painting I made on my fridge that says "keep looking forward". It reminds me that I've got a future to focus on too.

They took a lot from us, but this is the point where we are free and get to decide how we spend our time, and can even learn how to treat ourselves the way we wish we were treated. After tough therapy I get myself a small bouquet of mums, or a little cupcake. I imagine that if I had a dream mom she would get me a small gift to lift the mood after a hard therapy session.

I hope you are treating yourself with a lot of kindness and love right now.

[Mandaryn]

Big hugs to you--I have felt this same way, realizing what never was.  I came across a quote from one of the Bronte sisters the other day that seemed to help as I've been doing quite a bit of looking back lately.  It was, "I avoid looking forward or backward, and try to keep looking upward."  When I'm overwhelmed with the past and the future, I look away to (as they would say in AA) my higher power.  Doesn't always work, but I keep trying.

[cleotokos]

"I realize I can't change the past but the losses still hurt me. It's like awakening from a bad dream only to realize the nightmare of the past was real and can't be changed which makes me feel powerless all over again."

After tough therapy I get myself a small bouquet of mums, or a little cupcake. I imagine that if I had a dream mom she would get me a small gift to lift the mood after a hard therapy session.

skelly_bean, I can really relate to this. I'm wondering if you or anyone else here knows the feeling of mothering or parenting yourself? At some point I began to feel like I raised myself. I had to teach myself the difference between right and wrong, show myself kindness, motivate myself, learn how to treat others properly, how to behave in social situations (still struggle with that) etc. I even had a cat that sort of felt like my mother, as weird as that may sound. But she loved me deeply and unconditionally and I knew she would never hurt me. Can anyone else relate?

I sort of have an idea of what a loving mom would do in certain situations. I get mad and sad that I never had that.

[Mandaryn]

Cleotokos, we seem to have much in common--I also had the feeling that I raised myself in many ways.  Thankful to find that I'm not alone and not crazy as I once thought.

[Louise7777]

Hey Kwamina!

I believe all of us with BPD parents or relatives feel that way somehow. You cant change the past, but of course you are free now and can do whatever you want. Also, you are a sensitive and sensible person, willing to change and improve yourself. Thats a great quality, dont underestimate it! 

[Kwamina]

Thanks for all your kind responses! Years ago I wrote a poem titled 'Robbed', it was about all the things that had been stolen from me growing up. This was many years before I had even heard of BPD but it was clear to me that my childhood didn't make any sense at all.

Now that I have learned so much about BPD, when looking back I really see how vulnerable I was back then and how much control my mother had over me. I too feel like I had to raise myself in many ways, this was very difficult. I was playing the role of kid, my own parent and often a parent to my mother too. This was way too much for me to handle. Pets can be very loving, I had two parrots and they really did love and trust me unconditionally so I can relate to what cleotokos said about his catmother  Dreams can take you to special places, I dream about the people I've lost but I also still have dreams about my two parrots. It's been ten years since the last one of them died but they still comfort me in my dreams

I try to focus on the present as much as I can but sometimes my mind wonders back in time. I've actually found it much easier to accept the fact that my mother is most likely BPD then to accept all those lost years. I lived with my mother for nearly 30 years, the last 20 of them I lived alone with her. My siblings are much older than me and at the time I didn't realize it but they just left me with her knowing very well that there's something seriously wrong with her. The burden of taking care of her was placed solely on my shoulders, only problem I was still just a kid. They just pretended like they didn't really know what was going on, but they knew very well.

I'm hurting now yet am also very aware that I'm doing much better than before. When I was really depressed (before my escape) every little thing I did was a huge struggle but things have changed since then. Living with my mother really felt like being improsoned but now that I'm finally out and I don't have that constant negative energy around me, it's much easier to heal. Thanks again for your support!

[healinghome]

when we have a personality disordered (or both) parent I think comes with the territory that we brought ourselves up.  I think that is one of the deceitful things I struggle with now.  that to those unaware of BPD, we had parents and were a 'normal' family.  the denial of others when I tried to explain to them the violence and chaos in my home made me sick.  but the act my parents put on for others was such a betrayal and lie to have to live with on a daily basis.

i'm pushing 40yrs old and still learning social and personal lessons I should have been taught as a child, which I get painfully embarrassed about.

the last 20 of them I lived alone with her. My siblings are much older than me and at the time I didn't realize it but they just left me with her knowing very well that there's something seriously wrong with her. The burden of taking care of her was placed solely on my shoulders, only problem I was still just a kid. They just pretended like they didn't really know what was going on, but they knew very well.

pd's create such 'fight or flight' behaviour in the rest of the family.  I have 2 sisters (both BPD also) who i'm nc with.  the behaviour they took on was to copy our parents.  they didn't know any different.  i'm sorry to hear that your siblings knew better and yet did nothing.  it impacts the betrayal even more.   

[skelly_bean]

I'm wondering if you or anyone else here knows the feeling of mothering or parenting yourself?

Cleotokos, yes I can definitely relate. Funnily I actually had characters in my head that would pop up to do some mothering for me. Which sounds crazy I know, but I had a loving sassy black lady mother that would comfort me, and I had a fake poet character that would tell me I was better than the way I was treated... . So if you think your cat-mom story is weird, you're in good company

I stayed very far away from drugs and alcohol as a teenager even though my mother and stepfather offered to share them frequently because the parental part of me "raising" me disapproved a lot.

And as for parrots, my mom basically bought out a whole pet store of birds for some reason. My best friends growing up as a young child was a cockatoo named Pages, and a yellow-headed amazon parrot named Cleo (funnily... . now I think about it).

I would spend lots of time chatting with them. They would tell me their stories (if you have a parrot you know that they can grumble about something animatedly for a long time) and I would tell them mine. We didn't really need to understand each other, we just chatted.

Anyways, yes. I think for some of us, an instinct kicks in and we end up parenting ourselves the way we imagine we should be parented.

ah the life of a child with a BPD parent. 

[cleotokos]

skelly_bean, I think your characters are adorable, I guess we had to comfort ourselves in whatever way we could. I think my mom knows in some way that she left me feeling motherless. When my cat died, she told me a story about somebody else whose cat had died and some spiritual healer telling the person the cat was their mother. I don't remember the story properly, but it was a dramatic revelation that the cat was their mother when she told it. How's this for strange coincidence - my cat was named Cleo, Cleotokos was a nickname I had for her.

[Kwamina]

when we have a personality disordered (or both) parent I think comes with the territory that we brought ourselves up.  I think that is one of the deceitful things I struggle with now.  that to those unaware of BPD, we had parents and were a 'normal' family.  the denial of others when I tried to explain to them the violence and chaos in my home made me sick.  but the act my parents put on for others was such a betrayal and lie to have to live with on a daily basis.

Hi again healinghome2!

This fakeness is something I really hated about my mother and uBPD sister. My brother's behavior was also very problematic, but he wasn't fake about it. This fakeness also made me realize that allthough there's something seriously wrong with them, they aren't crazy. They know what they do, when they do it and most importantly to whom they do it. I read an article once about how some doctors don't see BPD as an illness but more like a 'mutant' personality for lack of a better word. To them BPD's aren't sick or crazy, this is just the way they are and they know what they're doing. It's like they're a different type of human being, I tend to agree with them. I basically see my mom and sis as humanoid but not really human.

[healinghome]

This fakeness is something I really hated about my mother and uBPD sister. My brother's behavior was also very problematic, but he wasn't fake about it. This fakeness also made me realize that allthough there's something seriously wrong with them, they aren't crazy. They know what they do, when they do it and most importantly to whom they do it. I read an article once about how some doctors don't see BPD as an illness but more like a 'mutant' personality for lack of a better word. To them BPD's aren't sick or crazy, this is just the way they are and they know what they're doing. It's like they're a different type of human being, I tend to agree with them. I basically see my mom and sis as humanoid but not really human.

hey kwamina    I 'get' the irritation with fakeness.  I find the word 'crazy' too dismissive.  I believe in cause and effect, so crazy is just random, as if its just out there on its own.  i feel it can seem like that because we only get snap-shots of each others lives, but to the person living it, their behaviour makes sense to them and if we are able to take the time to understand the others journey, it makes better sense.  i agree that BPD's know what they are doing, but i'm not sure they remember why they are doing it.  so the mutated personality is the result from a neglectful and/or abusive childhood, that they refuse to allow themselves to revisit because of the pain it involves. 

human to me means being centred in our own journey but being able to relate to the journey of others without losing ourselves and our journey.  its the heros solitary journey we take and it takes courage to walk.  BPD's don't do that, so human appears distant from them.  i hope at some point they embrace that, because we all deserve healing.

[cleotokos]

so the mutated personality is the result from a neglectful and/or abusive childhood, that they refuse to allow themselves to revisit because of the pain it involves. 

So, there's a lot of talk about this. My mom claims that her parents were emotionally neglectful. However, it is a fact that you cannot trust her perception of events and interactions between people. She believes she is being attacked when she is not, thinks certain people are "out to get" her, etc etc. She claims her dad was a "latent pedophile". I asked her why she thought this and what that meant and it really came down to "pedophile vibes" she got from him and the way she felt in certain situations. Nothing he ever said or did to her, she told me a few things and while they may have been odd (ie she said her dad had a dream where she was dancing to some music with a boy in a laundromat, and he told her about it and said "don't you ever embarrass me like that!", I'm not sure where she gets the pedophile angle. Every couple of months we would go and spend a long weekend with my grandparents and I tell you, "latent pedophile" was definitely NOT my experience of my grandfather and I was really shocked when she started telling me this. It amounts to her believing he had pedophilic thoughts in his head that he never acted on in any way, but the experiences she's told me of just don't tell me the same thing as her brain is telling her. I've seen many interactions between her and others where she thinks that people's facial expressions or the "way" they say things to her are indicative of things I don't necessarily see in the same way. So, these people think that we and others are being abusive to them when we are not. How can we really know if anybody, ever, has been abusive to them just because they say so? How has it been proven that abuse has caused this disorder? Self-reports from BPD people, I don't think, can be relied on for this.

[skelly_bean]

So, these people think that we and others are being abusive to them when we are not. How can we really know if anybody, ever, has been abusive to them just because they say so? How has it been proven that abuse has caused this disorder? Self-reports from BPD people, I don't think, can be relied on for this.

Cleotokos, referring to your post above, that is sweet about your cat and that she was so important that you still use her name as a handle

I guess the scary thing about BPD for me is that a lot of it is imaginary abuse, but they seem to experience it as abuse. My mother is "sick" with some illness 99% of the time, and I know that can't be true - but she seems to experience it as if it were true.

I can't believe that this disorder even exists! A disorder that makes you feel like you're constantly being attacked, abandoned and ALSO a disorder that prevents you from acknowledging any problem with yourself at all so you refuse to get help.

Awful!

[cleotokos]

I guess the scary thing about BPD for me is that a lot of it is imaginary abuse, but they seem to experience it as abuse. My mother is "sick" with some illness 99% of the time, and I know that can't be true - but she seems to experience it as if it were true.

I know it makes no difference to the victim of abuse whether it really happened or not - the result is the same as if it did as long as they believe it did. However, there is a section here for parents dealing with BPD children and there is a lot on here about BPD being caused by abuse. I haven't read the section for parents but I wonder how they are stigmatized by this idea, and I wonder how we can really know that abuse is such a factor?

[Louise7777]

Well, they only make up stories that make them look like victims or martyrs. Aint that nice? 

[Kwamina]

I know it makes no difference to the victim of abuse whether it really happened or not - the result is the same as if it did as long as they believe it did. However, there is a section here for parents dealing with BPD children and there is a lot on here about BPD being caused by abuse. I haven't read the section for parents but I wonder how they are stigmatized by this idea, and I wonder how we can really know that abuse is such a factor?

You've made a very good point here about the origins of the disorder. When I look at my own mother and sister they as far as I know were never abused in any way like how your mother claims she was abused. They were both spoiled rotten though and that has greatly contributed to their huge entitlement issues. I once told my sister that she has no respect for anyone and thinks she can do whatever she wants and get away with it. She denied it of course, played the role of victim like she always does to get away with things. My mother and sister weren't spoiled in a material sense, but they were in a psychological sense. They were both made to believe that they were very special and this led them to believe that they were better than other people and everything should be about them.

My mother's always talking about her own mother who died when my mother was in her mid to late twenties. My mother's attitude in many ways can be described as “I don't have a mother so now nobody gets a mother, ___ these kids of mine!”. Except her first child of course, my oldest sister, 'cause she was the golden child. However the way my mother treated my oldest sis has had huge consequences, she was never disciplined when acting out and has never learned to respect others' boundaries and now she's become a BPD too. Being raised like this in fact constitutes a form of abuse, but it's not what comes to our mind first when thinking about abuse. When you're spoiled rotten you're just not raised right and aren't prepared to deal with how things work in the real world.

[cleotokos]

Kwamina, interestingly, I perceived that my mother was indulged in a way by her parents. I remember her having one of her screaming fits at my grandmother, who just went about her business in the kitchen almost as if nothing abnormal was going on. My mom then broke down into sobs and apologized for yelling at her. It was totally insane. My grandma just seemed calm and collected through the whole thing. Maybe my mom was trying to get through to her, emotionally, and never felt she could or something? But I don't remember my grandfather intervening or anything. She always portrayed them as these awful people who blamed her for a lot of things. They took her to a therapist when she was a child (I'm guessing due to her psychotic rages?) and I know she felt very stigmatized by this and like they had betrayed her and tried to make her feel like she was crazy when it was really them that were crazy (so she says). If she acted the way she did when I was growing up when she was a child (and why would I assume she didn't) then obviously any good parents would be taking her to therapy!

I remember my grandparents helped my uncle buy a house. It's not like they were rich people, but they probably helped with the down payment or something. I don't know the details. He had a young family and had always worked his whole life, and is nothing like my mom. My mom on the other hand went on welfare when I was 4 and never got off it. I understand there are challenges to being a single mom, but there are many questionable choices she's made that contributed to her inability to secure a job for the rest of her life. She threw a FIT that they were helping her brother and not her. In the end they bought her a house in the crappy small town with no jobs that she wanted to live in, and rented it to her for next to nothing. So they caved to her demands. There were many more such incidents over the years. All my life I saw her bully and intimidate people with her rages, and manipulate with the waif behaviour, and it worked for her.

[XL]

This is interesting, almost something I feel guilty thinking. My mother's family was abused/traumatized. Their father left, and their mother had a huge breakdown. I can see their point, and was lead to grow up sorry for all of them.

HOWEVER, I am wondering if my mother was also spoiled in addition to the abuse. I think my grandmother did all the work, and my grandfather threw money at problems. She thinks she's above certain things; work, cleaning, budgeting, exercise, etc. Even applying for public benefits ("too much work". She has real sense of privilege and doesn't like limits. She has a real tendency to avoid responsibility and focus on "fun" or "pretty" things.  Now I'm wondering if my grandparents over-indulged their kids. She just has no sense of resiliency either. She refuses to move on from any set back, refuses to take control of her own happiness or destiny, refuses to help herself. Sometimes the line between disabled and spoiled gets very blurry.

I used to think the little things (refusing to figure out electronics, etc) were pleas for companionship, but I'm kind of thinking she'd be totally baffled by these things if she were alone. She's just willfully lazy on some things. It's not helplessness; it's laziness.

[skelly_bean]

Wow, yeah my mother's story is similar. She talks about how awful her childhood was, but once my great aunt told me "Your mother was so spoiled! She never had to do anything growing up."

She has abandonment issues, I'm guessing. Her mother left her when she was a baby and my grandpa was blind so he could only take care of her part-time. My grandmother raised her though, and she still had a father who loved her and spent a lot of time with her.

She was definitely "enabled" by my grandfather though, in a big way. He never admitted there was anything wrong with her, even when she is at her worst. She just begged for money from him (a blind man who spent his whole life working and saving!) and he would cave.

I know she's not the worst person out there, and that it's her disorder that causes her to be the way she is, but it's so hard to know what's the "disorder" and what is just a willfully lazy, cruel, narcissistic person. 

[cleotokos]

XL, I hear where you're coming from. I too think my mom can be very lazy, and has given up various things in life due to the laziness to be bothered to figure them out. She had ample opportunity to educate herself before we were born and when we were in school. Her parents always helped her financially. She chose to do nothing to improve her life! She would just whine about how awful and depressing it was. She also never cleaned the house because she didn't want to "spend all my time" cleaning. Same reason for not wanting to work, she once said to me that work "takes too much of your LIFE". Lazy, lazy, LAZY! One time we were eating donuts at my house, and she struggled with closing the lid of the box and eventually just tossed it in my direction and went to eating her donut. Like "it's too hard, I can't be bothered, you do it!" What is up with that? Aargh. And the thing that REALLY gets to me lately is when I have my niece for a visit, my mother won't do anything to help take care of her. She won't change a diaper, if she sees her doing something she shouldn't she won't stop her, she won't entertain her in any way if I'm trying to cook dinner (she's 2 so she needs constant attention). She just acts like a "bystander", observing the situation almost as if she's not even there. You'd think she'd never been around children in her life instead of raising two. And it ties in with her almost parentifying me, making me "the boss", the one who has to make the decisions, so she can complain about it and have someone to blame later and make me feel as if I've dominated her and forced my will upon her. That's a whole other story. But anyway I asked her once why she doesn't really engage with my niece and she told me that her mother, as a role model for females, taught her that women should be meek and submissive. Now how does that even make ANY SENSE AT ALL since I am a female too? I just feel like she doesn't care an she's lazy and can't be bothered to put out effort. If she can get away with standing around and doing nothing, she'll do that.

[Kwamina]

HOWEVER, I am wondering if my mother was also spoiled in addition to the abuse. I think my grandmother did all the work, and my grandfather threw money at problems. She thinks she's above certain things; work, cleaning, budgeting, exercise, etc. Even applying for public benefits ("too much work". She has real sense of privilege and doesn't like limits. She has a real tendency to avoid responsibility and focus on "fun" or "pretty" things.  Now I'm wondering if my grandparents over-indulged their kids.

Yes XL, this definitely sounds like your mother was spoiled

She just has no sense of resiliency either. She refuses to move on from any set back, refuses to take control of her own happiness or destiny, refuses to help herself. Sometimes the line between disabled and spoiled gets very blurry.

This is true for my mother as well. She also extended this behavior to me, whenever something bad happened to me it was like she wanted me to stay stuck in that moment. She didn't allow me to move on from it. This is one of the main reasons why nowadays I don't share any important information with her. I know I can't trust her and when something bad happens she'll most likely make it worse if she knows about it. And when good things happen... .  she'll most likely try to ruin it or ruin my good mood.

I used to think the little things (refusing to figure out electronics, etc) were pleas for companionship, but I'm kind of thinking she'd be totally baffled by these things if she were alone. She's just willfully lazy on some things. It's not helplessness; it's laziness.

I understand what you mean here. They'll act like a Waif so you think they're really that helpless but often it's just a way to manipulate you in doing things for them. It's not that they can't do them themselves, often they haven't even tried. It's that they feel entitled to have someone else take care of them.

[Cordelia]

I don't know you guys, something about this doesn't feel right to me.  I totally had the same impression of my mom too (that she is just spoiled, entitled, and lazy), and that was when I was closer to her, so who knows maybe it's accurate, but my overwhelming impression of my mom today is someone who is overwhelmed and defeated by life, who lacks the inner strength or resilience, as you note, Kwamina, to overcome the tiniest hurdles or inconveniences, and who lacks the ability to focus and think, because she is so driven by a chaotic world of inner demons.  In more scientific terms, impaired executive function.  Symptomatic BPDs can't make decisions, can't focus, aren't able to identify reality, and flail about guided by instincts.  The same instincts that we all have, but are able to put into perspective better.  I really think it's a disability, not something that could be overcome with more willpower or better parenting.  Like any disability, BPD folks would probably do a lot better with support that's designed for their particular strengths and weaknesses, that challenges them appropriately while not asking too much, but it's not like they could just man up and stop being BPD.

I think unfortunately that's a type of wishful thinking.  One they, I think, often share.  I think my mom blamed herself a lot for her failings in life, and was constantly assuring me (while in her Waify state) that she could and would "do better" (at what, was never specified).  But I think that is unfortunately a delusion she had, and one I bought into, that caused me a lot of pain and frustration.  I think it would have been so much healthier if she, or anyone in my FOO, was able to say, "Mom is a troubled person who is not likely to go on to have a lot of external accomplishments or really be able to be close to anyone, even us.  But she is an important member of our family and we accept her the way she is, even though we may get frustrated with her behavior."  Unfortunately my family was in such chaos that no one could summon that kind of detachment or compassion, everyone was tearing at each other to have their needs met, and now I feel it's too late to rebuild a relationship based on that kind of acceptance.  Too much hurt has been inflicted and the best thing we can do is go our separate ways wishing each other as well as we can.  But I think in an ideal world, the best, most enlightened perspective is that BPDs are troubled people, who cause a lot of damage especially to those closest to them, but who in fact are suffering people who didn't choose to be the way they are and are doing their best to handle their condition, even if their best isn't anywhere near good enough to meet the minimum requirements of their roles as parents and family members.  *shrug*

[Kwamina]

Hi Cordelia,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree with a lot of what you've said. BPD's indeed can't just man up and stop being BPD and they indeed didn't choose to be like this. It unfortunately is just they way they are, they're wired in a completely different way compared to most other people. Looking at my own situation I have noticed they do have a certain amount of control though, they aren't crazy (well not completely  ) and usually don't just act this way with everybody.

The point I was making earlier was that I believe spoiling a child in fact constitutes a form of abuse that can be very damaging to a child's development. I see this as one of the contributing factors that can lead to the development of a personality disorder later on. Some people may be borne BPD but I don't believe this goes for all of them. Not all spoiled kids will develop a PD but when I look at my own BPD relatives it's very clear to me that they were raised wrong, spoiled rotten in a psychological sense and this has led to huge entitlement issues and later possibly to BPD.

I'm sorry to hear your family life was so chaotic. That's one of the most painful aspects of BPD how it completely destroys the loving bonds between family-members or prevents these bonds from ever forming in the first place. Are you NC with your mother?

[isshebpd]

I wonder how much of BPD laziness is disassociation. I never understood my uBPDmom's trance until now. Even when her toddler nephew was cutting his fingers playing with the hole of an open Coke can, she just sat there watching. My wife took the can once she realized what was happening :P

When I was kid, I remember seeing her in a trance a lot. Sometimes while watching TV, other times just sitting there staring.

[Cordelia]

Looking at my own situation I have noticed they do have a certain amount of control though, they aren't crazy (well not completely  ) and usually don't just act this way with everybody.

True enough!  I have seen my mom flip on a dime from angry meltdown to sugary fake-happy voice when it suited her purposes.  Certainly they can control their behavior... .  I just suspect that she is working with a higher base degree of emotional chaos and lack of perspective than most of us.  I can get paranoid about people close to me, and start suspecting them of crazy things sometimes, you know?  And then I need to check my feelings out with someone who knows me well and I can trust.  But it's not an everyday thing.  I don't wake up every morning thinking the ones closest to me are just waiting for a chance to stab me in the back.  I suspect my mom did. 

The point I was making earlier was that I believe spoiling a child in fact constitutes a form of abuse that can be very damaging to a child's development. I see this as one of the contributing factors that can lead to the development of a personality disorder later on.

I got that, and to be honest maybe that's why the way the conversation was going bothered me.  I both disagree intellectually and am emotionally allergic to the idea of parents having that much power.  Obviously parents have a huge amount of power over their kids' development and can influence them for good or for ill.  But kids also bring their own personalities to the table, and once they're grown, their own decisions influence the way they'll develop further too.  It's certainly tough to get over an abusive childhood, whether the abuse takes the more typical form of being the target of rage and neglect, or being "spoiled" and not allowed to experience the consequences of their decisions, take risks that help them grow, have the independence they need to find out who they are, etc.  (I don't really want to get into what constitutes spoiling because that's so subjective - for a member of a farming family, city kids may seem spoiled because they don't have to work with animals; for someone from an extremely poor community, it might seem like being spoiling to encourage a child to go to a liberal arts college, etc.)  There are many ways to be affected by a parent's decisions when you were a child, and some are very hard to get over.  But I don't think a parent can cause a PD, anymore than they can cause autism (which used to be thought be caused by cold mothers, etc.), or other neurological abnormalities.  I think parents can help the child find positive ways to deal with the challenges they have, be they emotional, neurological, physical, or whatever, or they can exacerbate the problem by blaming and shaming the child, but either way they didn't create the child's emotional makeup (except maybe on a genetic level).  It's just my opinion - take it or leave it, I won't be upset either way! 

I am NC with my mother, for a little over two years now.  This site has really helped me understand the nature of her problems, and to realize that they existed long before I came onto the scene, and that I am unlikely to change her through the persuasive tactics I developed as her child.  I am so far unable to accept her treatment of me when we are in touch, so I am not in touch with her.  I don't know if it's a sign of personal growth or an admission of my limitations, but either way, the truth is I can't manage it at this point.  Maybe someday... .  

[Cordelia]

When I was kid, I remember seeing her in a trance a lot. Sometimes while watching TV, other times just sitting there staring.

I remember this too!  Especially during mealtimes, when eating, she would just zone out.  So frustrating when I wanted her attention. 

[Kwamina]

I think it would have been so much healthier if she, or anyone in my FOO, was able to say, "Mom is a troubled person who is not likely to go on to have a lot of external accomplishments or really be able to be close to anyone, even us.  But she is an important member of our family and we accept her the way she is, even though we may get frustrated with her behavior."

Hi again Cordelia! I've been thinking about this part of your post a lot. This really would have made a huge difference growing up. My mother was basically unfit to raise children. If I had known then what I know now things would have been a little easier. It would still be difficult 'cause we indeed would still get frustrated by her behavior, but at least I would know what was wrong with her and how best to protect my own inner peace.

But I think in an ideal world, the best, most enlightened perspective is that BPDs are troubled people, who cause a lot of damage especially to those closest to them, but who in fact are suffering people who didn't choose to be the way they are and are doing their best to handle their condition, even if their best isn't anywhere near good enough to meet the minimum requirements of their roles as parents and family members. *shrug*

Very well said! They certainly are troubled people. What makes it difficult is that they often don't admit they have a problem, often don't even realize they do because in their mind they are normal and everybody else is crazy.

I am so far unable to accept her treatment of me when we are in touch, so I am not in touch with her. I don't know if it's a sign of personal growth or an admission of my limitations, but either way, the truth is I can't manage it at this point. Maybe someday... .  

I think it's probably a bit of both, to me admitting your limitations is a huge sign of personal growth. I have controlled contact with my mother now because I've also come to a point that I won't accept her mistreating me. I still see her and talk to her but I've distanced myself in many ways. Like I don't do Mother's Day anymore, last time I did was in 2010 and it was hell  I also don't share any important information with her.

[Kwamina]

I wonder how much of BPD laziness is disassociation. I never understood my uBPDmom's trance until now. Even when her toddler nephew was cutting his fingers playing with the hole of an open Coke can, she just sat there watching. My wife took the can once she realized what was happening :P

When I was kid, I remember seeing her in a trance a lot. Sometimes while watching TV, other times just sitting there staring.

I unfortunately have experienced this too. I've seen my mom in a trance-like state numerous times. I remember several times coming home from school or work and my mother would just sit on the couch staring in front of her. The television was switched off but yet she was still staring in front of her. I found this behavior very unsettling because it seemed like she just wasn't there at all. There were also times when I wasn't so sure if this was a real case of disassociation. Often when she had really misbehaved she would try to manipulate others and position herself as the victim instead of the aggressor. She would play the role of the heartbroken victim who just doesn't know what to do anymore and therefor would just sit on the couch staring in front of her. However before doing that she would first take the telephone off the hook so nobody could reach her and people would get worried.