Obligation

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I'm trying to explore why this is so strong in me and where it comes from. I certainly don't remember my parents acting through a sense of obligation or teaching me overtly to do so. We were non religious and I don't remember any covert messages that I 'should' act in a certain way.

I'm guessing there is something deeper that I can't quite reach. I'm struggling with obligation as I practice getting to know people here and there. You can't get to know people immediately and, after getting to know them a little I may decide I don't want to be friends or date them. But I feel obliged to continue anyway, unless they do something to offend. The more time that passes the less I feel able to get out. It's ridiculous! I definitely feel more obligated with men than I do with women but it is there with both. I think it has something to do with people being attracted to me.

Why should the fact that people are attracted to me make me feel obligated? I think there is something in there about the fact that I consciously dress and groom myself to appear attractive. I listen well to people, not because I am consciously wanting to attract them, but because I find what makes people tick fascinating. And if they aren't fascinating I can just zone out until I can get away. People don't know that's what I'm doing, they just keep on talking about themselves.

I have a voice in me somewhere that says, if I made the effort to be attractive, and to listen well to people, and the person then likes me, I should follow through by being a friend to the person. If I'm going to make an effort to be nice why am I upset when people like me.

That's really twisted though. I want to be able to get to know people knowing that I can get out. It's getting me in a bit of a mess!

[maria1]

I'm trying to explore why this is so strong in me and where it comes from. I certainly don't remember my parents acting through a sense of obligation or teaching me overtly to do so. We were non religious and I don't remember any covert messages that I 'should' act in a certain way.

I'm guessing there is something deeper that I can't quite reach. I'm struggling with obligation as I practice getting to know people here and there. You can't get to know people immediately and, after getting to know them a little I may decide I don't want to be friends or date them. But I feel obliged to continue anyway, unless they do something to offend. The more time that passes the less I feel able to get out. It's ridiculous! I definitely feel more obligated with men than I do with women but it is there with both. I think it has something to do with people being attracted to me.

Why should the fact that people are attracted to me make me feel obligated? I think there is something in there about the fact that I consciously dress and groom myself to appear attractive. I listen well to people, not because I am consciously wanting to attract them, but because I find what makes people tick fascinating. And if they aren't fascinating I can just zone out until I can get away. People don't know that's what I'm doing, they just keep on talking about themselves.

I have a voice in me somewhere that says, if I made the effort to be attractive, and to listen well to people, and the person then likes me, I should follow through by being a friend to the person. If I'm going to make an effort to be nice why am I upset when people like me.

That's really twisted though. I want to be able to get to know people knowing that I can get out. It's getting me in a bit of a mess!

[zaqsert]

Hi maria1,

Really interesting questions.  I wonder if there might be a couple of different things going on here.

The first might be:  Why do you give these people your attention in the first place?

It may just be that you find what makes people tick fascinating.  You listen to see if theirs is one of those fascinating stories.  Do you think there might be another reason too?  In my case, for most of my life I've wanted to please people and not upset them, so that's something I need to continue to work on as I focus more on me.  I wonder what you feel draws you in in the first place.

The second thing that comes to mind is something called escalation of commitment:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

Wikipedia describes it as "the phenomenon where people justify increased investment in a decision, based on the cumulative prior investment, despite new evidence suggesting that the cost, starting today, of continuing the decision outweighs the expected benefit".

Most of us or (I don't mean to go black and white here but... .  ) perhaps all of us are susceptible to escalation of commitment.  Say you decide to start paying attention to someone.  Then you find they're really uninteresting.  But you committed to listening in the first place, so you feel like maybe you should pay attention to them for just a bit longer.  Well, now you've committed to yourself that you will pay attention to them not once, but twice.  Could it have been so wrong to have made that decision twice already?  Nah, paying attention to them just a bit more seems like the right thing to do, yet again.  And the cycle continues.

In the organizational behavior class where I first learned this, the point was that by being aware of this cognitive bias, we could allow ourselves to step back and realize that the decision to continue "investing" (in your case investing in the relationship) may not have been a rational decision.  Then we could be more likely to allow ourselves to come to a new, different, and more rational decision that would help us get out of the vicious cycle.

I'm not sure if this applies to your situation.  Just wanted to share the observations in case they help.

[maria1]

Thanks Zaqsert

I am thinking of people I may know vaguely already, or meet and we naturally get to know each other better OR people I am consciously getting to know through OK Cupid.

So there is something that appeals to me in the first place. If there isn't I don't engage with them. If they do something obviously bonkers I just block them- I don't feel bad about that. But if I just don't feel we are a good match as I get to know more about them I find it hard to disengage; I feel I have misled them by 'making' them like me.

I don't think it's escalation of commitment. It is fear of upsetting them. It is fear of hurting them. But why should I believe that I am going to upset them by just deciding to go? They will cope, they are grown ups.

I have this terrible fear of impacting negatively anywhere. I don't like to ask for help because it will eat into somebody else's time. I don't like to 'put people out'. I think this must all come back to not being noticed in my FOO and seeing the impact my brother's disordered behaviour had on my parents and me. I hated that he could act the way he did and seem to have zero awareness that his behaviour had an effect on those around him. He would play loud music all night, leave a mess everywhere he went, drink all my father's wine, take stuff whenever he wanted etc. etc.

Maybe I reacted to seeing that. He was 3 years older than me. Maybe I just didn't want to be like him so I over compensated and made sure NOTHING I did had a negative impact on people. It's a hard way to be, impossible obviously. 

[maria1]

Also I have this thing where I don't want to acknowledge that they like me. I hate my own narcissistic traits so much because my father's narcissism made him incredibly self centred. Who am I to think these people actually like me for me? That can't be right! Or maybe it is right? No you're too in love with yourself thinking that!

[fromheeltoheal]

I feel a sense of obligation too.  I've dug to find out why, and the core of it is my people pleaser identity; I naturally put other people's needs ahead of my own, and if someone is showing attraction or even interest I feel an obligation to meet their needs, many times ignoring or at least not acknowledging my own.

All of that has family of origin roots for me.  I grew up in a very emotionally cold, sterile, superficial environment, and learned to act certain ways that would gain approval, and avoid other ways that resulted in discipline of negative judgement, which was really denying big parts of who I am.  I still do that, and the area of focus today is getting selfish, not with the negative connotation, but in the sense of putting my needs first for a change, which is profound.

I'm still taking baby steps since it's new.  I walked right in to my r/s with my BPDex as a people pleaser, and as we know, that will get you royally screwed, which was actually the good news, because the pain caused me to look at my needs, healthy boundaries, showing up as a whole self.  Putting other people's needs ahead of my own, overcommitting and not setting limits leaves me completely exhausted and causes me to focus on disempowering beliefs.  Enough.  Grounded, centeredness, good boundaries, genuine connection; these things are available to us when we take care of ourselves first.

[maria1]

Thanks FHtH

There's something further down, below the codependency. I can see it's all part of that dynamic but I want to get to the real bottom of it, so that I can work to change this obligated feeling. It really gets me stuck. Other things in terms of boundaries and looking after myself I'm getting loads better with.

But I can't get over this feeling that if I've made people like me it's my fault. Something is blinking at me underneath this feeling and I can't get to what it is. I wasn't abused, I wasn't bullied. I was just slightly ignored and didn't get much positive affirmation. My brother got lots of attention for his negative behaviour; again, I think it's something to do with that.

[fromheeltoheal]

Interesting; I admire the digging you're doing.  My brother got lots of negative attention for his antics too, but I didn't envy it, and he's got major challenges he's going through around it.  I do what I can.

I'm curious why you consider it your 'fault' when someone likes you.  If you're showing up genuinely, and someone likes you for who you are, it would seem no one's at fault for anything.

[zaqsert]

FHtH, I've also recently started to feel that despite the hell that I've gone through with my uBPDw, I have her to thank for hitting a sort of bottom, realizing what I was doing, and starting to work on myself and go through what sounds like a similar journey to yours.

Maria1, your point about the effect from your FOO resonated with me.  Even growing up with a narcissistic father may have led you to not wanting to 'put people out' so as not to rock his boat and make him upset.  So here's another thought to try on for size... .  

My narcissistic father who turned out to be a con artist had quite an effect on me, even though I only spent about 1/4 of the year with him and he then disappeared for years when I was in my early teens.  For many, many years I found that I kept striving NOT to be like him.  But over the years, this and old coping mechanisms really got in the way of my life, both personally and professionally.

Much more recently, my T helped me realize and start accepting that some feelings (e.g., anger) and some desires (e.g., being interesting to others) are perfectly fine, healthy, and do not make me anything like my father.  His disordered self used these things in a very manipulative way, whereas healthy people also use them, just in a healthy way.

I even had a dream a few years ago where my father kept meddling in things that I was trying to do, until I finally turned to him and screamed "Shut the f*** up!"  It turns out that it was so strong that I actually screamed out that phrase in real life, waking up my wife, who then woke me up because she was afraid of what was going on and wanted to make sure I was ok.  Ever since that dream, in some situations I still think about that phrase to help me move past some of these emotional, irrational fears.  My T refers to it as a sort of mantra.

If this resonates with you at all, I wonder if it might help to name some of these feelings or desires that make you feel a bit like your father or brother.  Well, actually, I think you've started to do that, which is probably good.  Then maybe think about how a disordered person uses them vs. how a healthy person would use the exact same feelings or desires?

[tcevans78]

I wonder if you are attention-seeking?  And you either don't feel obligated to the person at all, rather you would have any attention vs none even when you don't feel that good about the person.  Or you are doing all the "right things" to attract people but you know it's only meant to be shallow/superficial and feel guilty you've led them on.

I don't mean this as a jab at you.  It just sounded like something I would do before: so that's why I made that particular correlation. 

[maria1]

I don't think it's attention seeking but I can't say for sure? I don't want the attention but I do want something and if we book it down is dell interaction attention? I just want to find some 'healthy' people. I find the attention thing tiresome and false these days after the BPD experience. I've certainly enjoyed the attention of Internet dating and all the emails and stuff in the past. But i know its all based exactly on attention at first. I really don't feel like I enjoy that any more. I do get that there's something about attention going in in the whole dynamic- I've been thinking about attention in another thread. I don't feel right communicating with more than one person at a time; I am utterly monogamous, even when it comes just to communicating !

The other thing is I don't remember resenting my brother for the attention he got. It want a happy situation. I did resent the fact that he got away with making my life miserable by not realising how his actions impacted. It was as if the bit if his brain was missing that realised he had an affect on other people. That drive me crazy at times. I couldn't understand it. I hated that I would go for a shower and every towel would be wet and dumped on the floor. Or my deodorant or moisturiser would just disappear. Once he sold my guitar that I loved and I didn't even get it replaced. These were the things that upset me- not the negative attention he got.

I just hate the feeling that I'm upsetting people. Hate the feeling that any action of mine will upset in any way.

[maria1]

Zaqsqert

Yes I've done a bit of work before on being terrified of being anything like my narcissistic father. I'm just here starting to wonder if my childhood was about not wanting to be like my severely disordered brother. He died when he was 34, he didn't live a happy life. My father moved to another country after my mother died and my brother followed him there. My brother had psychotic episodes and really dark times which included blaming all his problems on my father. My father would ring me and look to me for support (my mother had died earlier).

I would get phone calls telling me my brother had disappeared or been arrested or was becoming psychotic and my father would need me to tell him what to do. I became the parent. In between times there would be done plan or scheme that my father would be helping my brother set up. He once opened a restaurant for him. It was just a small restaurant serving pasta and ice cream. My father was a great cook but my brother not really interested. My father did all the work and my brother would turn up drunk and play his guitar; the restaurant lasted about 6 weeks. Sometimes I would hear how amazing my brother was, how he'd been in a play my father had directed or done something my father was pleased with.

When my brother died, 15 years ago, I thought my father would have preferred it if I had died. He always seemed to think more of him than he did of me.

While all this was going on I was making a living, training to be a nurse and working really hard. I don't remember a single word of praise. I just remember the constant phone calls about my brother, or him telling me how great other people were in the family.

[maria1]

On the attention thing. Maybe it's the fact that I don't feel I deserve attention in a way. So if I do get it I should be grateful for it. If I've got it I must have for it under false pretences because I can't have got it just for me. So who am I to think I can break it off. I feel like I'm making these people fall for me. That's the dynamic going on.

There are people who fall for me without meeting me because of what I look like in photos, because I listen well and have ideas that I like to explore. My dating profile is all about NOT idealising and putting people in boxes. Yet they think wow this woman is great! I've been nice to them so I've made them think I think the same thing about them too. They think I'm just doing it with them. That's where I feel like I've misled them. I only want the person I fall in live with to fall in love with me.

I wonder if men just stick on a woman loads quicker. I'm scared of people liking me because I know it takes time to get to know them and I may not like them.

It's the idealisation that's bugging me I guess. I really think men do this more than women. I don't want it because it feels false. I'm finding myself drawn to the men who don't do it at all.

[maria1]

I think I'm also good at mirroring and that I may do it unconsciously. I'm trying hard not to do it. Even when I don't do it I get people liking me. More than I feel comfortable with. The thing is I think people liking people is a normal part of every day life so it's something I need to get my head around. What I'm not comfortable with is when I don't like them back as much as they like me. That's when I've misled them by being nice.

Something happened on Saturday in real life that has thrown me. I went to a festival with a neighbour. She had told me she had a spare ticket- I assumed it as a free ticket because she often gets free tickets. I should probably have said no because I decided a while back this woman wasn't really safe to socialise with. But she has reached out to me recently as her boyfriend has turned out to be borderline. I've still held back but tried to be supportive. Anyway once I'd already committed to going she said a friend of her, a man who is married but having an affair is going. She sort of hints this guy is also in love with her. This is all sounding like not what I need right now. BUT I KEEP ON, even though I have to pay for the ticket and even though this guy sounds awful. Other people are coming too. The reason I keep on is a selfish one, not obligation. It's because I really want to do the festival now. I've invested in it emotionally. But I tell myself I should get out.

Anyway as the day wears on this guy is talking to me more and more (he isn't atractive btw and he smells). I'm friendly back but not flirty, and not too friendly. He at one point tells me I don't seem very happy. He seems to get a bit sulky if I don't respond. I tell myself this can't be because of me. This class a w***** can't be interested in me. He offers me some free tickets for the big gig tomorrow. I had earlier said how much I love the band. I say no thanks. He twice buys me alcohol I don't want.  He sort of gently has a go at me for not wanting the tickets. I say I can't go I have CFS and I can't do two days out in a row. He puts his arm around me. I just ignore it.

Did I lead this guy on by just being friendly? He's a pretty horrible person yet I was nice to him.

Another example. I was messaging someone on OKC a while back. I called him Mr High Fidelity on the dating board on here. We got on really well in messaging, had a real laugh. But I know that means nothing. I said to him it means nothing. He said of course it doesn't mean anything that's all fine. We arranged to go to a gig in a city neither of us live in. That gig was sold out but there was one in my home town that he said he'd like to go to. So we go. We'd not met before.

He arrives with a headlight out. He looks about 15 and has a little tantrum about his headlight, says he can't drive home in the dark. I say you can stay in my spare room. I already know as soon as I meet him this guy has the emotional maturity of a 15 year old and the date is a disaster. But the gig is great. BUT I'M NICE TO HIM. but not too nice! I definitely don't flirt with him. He tries to hug me when I go to bed and I don't respond. he seems to throw a little humphy tantrum again which I ignore. The next morning he says 'I think you're great you know. I really really do' I say 'I think you're really nice too'. (ouch) but 10 minutes later I say 'I'm only into being friends with people not a relationship. ' I'm not able to say properly 'I'm just not into you'.

So he texts later and I lie. I tell him my dad is ill and I can't be in touch right now (my dad is always ill so I can persuade myself it's not a lie even though it is). That's about a month ago. He texted me a couple of days ago and I said 'I'm really sorry but I am not well (also true but not the reason) and I am not able to offer you anything by way of friendship'.

I did lead this guy on by not telling him the truth, by letting him stay in my house. I should have ignored the stupid headlight ruse and let him drive home in the dark. He tried to manipulate me and, because I let him and played along to a certain extent I end up feeling guilty. I let a stranger stay in my spare room. I don't like admitting it on here but I have to! My instincts told me it was OK actually but my instincts aren't always that sound.

[fromheeltoheal]

I can only speak from a man's perspective, but when I was younger I used to misinterpret a woman's friendliness as attraction all the time.  As I've gotten older I've made the distinction; a woman's cues are subtle and men need to pay closer attention, but it's pretty obvious with practice whether a woman is attracted to a man or not.  Some guys who lack maturity and confidence, been there, take a woman's looks and the fact that she's being friendly as 'close enough' and just keep barging ahead anyway, even when the clues are now obvious that she's not into it.  And of course there are women who lead men on because it's fun, and that gets obvious too.  I'm sure you know all this.

My BPD ex was extremely good at coming on to men, she's perfected it, and we now know that attachment is life or death for them, so there's the motivation, but man, she was good.  Impressive, if it didn't hurt so much.

I'm with you in looking for and developing healthy relationships, without the lies and manipulations.  I've found I'm more grounded when I spend time with friends in a healthy way, and then when I interact with people I just met, I'm less likely to get caught up in the games people play, and look for authenticity to begin with.  Challenging, but that's another gift of our BPD experience; we're digging and looking for answers, and finding them, instead of just floating, which I did for too long.

[maria1]

Trouble is there seems to be so little authenticity out there. Dig a little deeper and there's another disordered soul. Actually I should just forgive myself and know that I should never have gone out with this neighbour in the first place. She isn't the kind if person I want to be friends with. I knew this already.

But I can't avoid her or her little boy. I can pull back again though. I don't really need to pull back I just need to not keep taking the bait.

I know I don't flirt with people I'm not attracted to. I don't even know how to flirt with people I'm attracted to so that's going to need some practice!

I need to get over always needing to do the right thing. It's impossible. Ill always fail.

Sometimes people like me and I don't like them. Sometimes I like people and they don't like me. I can't avoid getting to know people because of this.

I need to get out of 2 virtual 'friendships' instead of feeling obliged to continue. I need to just do it and see that it's not the end of the world.

[maria1]

Also fhth

Thank you got saying that stuff about men and cues- that was really helpful. That's sort of how it feels. Like it doesn't really matter what cues I give off some folks just don't take a negative cue because they want to believe what they want to believe.

There's something off in me thinking I've led them on just by them finding me attractive. But there's a societal thing underneath that too. If a woman dresses in a way to look attractive she deserves what she gets. I don't dress in a provocative way but I do like to look nice and I've only discovered in the last few years that I can make the best of myself. That means I attract some attention, not loads but not zero. I don't seem to have s choice. I either look good and get some attention but I've made a conscious effort to do that or I look rubbish and don't attract any attention!

[Maryiscontrary]

Maria, with all love and respect here, I think you are over analyzing. I don't talk to people I don't like, or keep it very terse. I used to have similar patterns as you, but I cut that out, as red flagS abound and abound, and generally, people really suck.

[maria1]

Thanks Mary/ I think you could be right! I've sort if over analysed  myself up by own backside and out again this morning.

I was thinking about you actually in relation to all of this. I would like to up sticks and go live a long way away in a place I choose. I can't do that so I have to seal myself up better and that's partly what this analysing is. It's what I need to do in some ways to believe that I'm ok. Don't know if that makes any sense. I'm validating myself here in a way more than anything.

You don't talk to people you don't like but it doesn't torture you. It's the tittering myself that is the problem that I need to work on. If I stop talking to people altogether there's nobody left I like.

How soon do you know you don't like someone?

[Maryiscontrary]

Actually, we are talking... .  rigHt? I like you and you like me. Common goals. There are lots of people who will love you as you are.

Again, part of developing empathy is not just feeling another's pain, but also another's miscreance. Empathy is not all warm fuzzy. It is reading others intentions better. Which is often of low merit.

[maria1]

I empathise too much. I empathise with the horrible people. I feel their upset and I want to avoid it. I should say I imagine their upset, not I feel it. I want to avoid causing upset to anybody, which is nonsense. I do know that it's nonsense. That's why I'm trying to work on what's beneath it and change the thoughts. I can change the behaviour and the thoughts might follow but those thoughts are deep rooted with me. I'm trying to dig them out.

The less nice a person is the less i am bothered. I'm getting better. Maybe it just takes time. Like everything else. Time and practice.

[fromheeltoheal]

I say humans are imperfect creatures, and that's OK, we can love each other anyway, and even more so.  I need to realize the big reason my BPD ex got in so deep was I was very lonely and susceptible when she showed up; humans are social animals, and we are much healthier and happier in groups, although wanting to be alone once in a while is healthy too.  So it's important for me to expand my social circle and find people I can connect with, realizing we're all weird, and what we consider normal is people who are weird in the same direction we are.  There's a belief.

But especially in relationships.  Sure physical attraction has to be there, but there's so much more.  Especially with what I just went through with my BPD ex, hoping in bed on our first date, throwing around the L word with reckless abandon; she was living her BPD fantasy, and I bought it all the way.  Clearly, that will get me screwed.  So real relationships take a while.  I've decided to take a Facebook approach; sure I'll be open to you being my friend, until at some point it will be clear that moving forward in a friendship isn't working, so it's time to unfriend, and that's OK.

[MaybeSo]

Maria,

If you don't like someone; why not practice a scrip that makes it clear?

I'm not interested.

No thank you.

It was nice meeting you, I'm not interested in pursuing this further.

This is kinder in the long run... .  someone who isn't reading subtle cues (too many to count) needs a clear message.

Empathy isn't about protecting people from life or their own feeling states.

Empathy is about understanding someone is having a experience and feeling state,  that may be

quite different than yours, and understanding it anyway, while maintaining your own feeling

state. It is allowing for others... .  their own feelings/responses.

I find I get confused about my feeling state and someone elses feeling state. I thought for years I was empathetic, mostly I was confusing my feelings with others and getting very anxious about it. That's not empathy. Who knew?

I find I operate under the false illusion that I have more power to affect others (feeling states) than I actually do.

It has caused me a lot of unnecessary anxiety;

In reality, it's shocking how little most people really care about me, my opinions, or what I do... .  especially early on.

I have spent years being nice in situations where I'm not feeling nice nor even like/enjoy a person. This took years of training in childhood to accomplish this level of inauthentic affect.

I'm sick of it. It's exhausting, and it makes me feel inauthentic and yucky and it's stressful to boot, it makes what should be a clear concise message turn into protracted akward mixed messages... .

I agree with Mary, don't be nice, be real.

I'm so sick of the word "nice".

[justine1984]

Its almost the same with me, but I am yet to find any explanation for myself. If I go to a job interview and their offer is way bellow what I would be interested, I stay through the whole interview anyway just because it would feel impolite to do otherwise, but in truth I am wasting my time (and their time too!). If I go out with someone and find that there is no chemestry or nothing in common whatsoever, I still finish my coffee and laugh at his jokes for a while just to avoid offending the person. I also have a very hard time saying NO to a person's face, I usually say no by finding excuses and never directly.

[MaybeSo]

I work with a woman that is really pretty good at boundaries... .  she says what she means... .  it's not mean, but it's clear, direct... .  it's like she is speaking a foreigen language.

Even watching her do it makes me feel anxious sometimes. I applaud it intellectually but my body responds with a lot of anxiety. She is a very effective person.

[maria1]

Thank you everybody for your responses- this has been a revelatory week for me.

Empathy isn't about protecting people from life or their own feeling states.

Empathy is about understanding someone is having a experience and feeling state,  that may be

quite different than yours, and understanding it anyway, while maintaining your own feeling

state. It is allowing for others... .  their own feelings/responses.

Yes- I know this! I also know that it is important not to feel that other person's pain because the empathy gets lost. Over empathising is no longer empathy- I get that but I find it incredibly hard not to feel the imagined pain.

Right now I am going through hell with this because I'm putting boundaries in place all over. I need to do this to live properly. But I need to detach from putting myself in the other person's shoes of how they will be feeling when I reject them. It's not about them, it's about me and I get that it doesn't matter. I get that I'm not so important. I get that I don't count that much in these selfish people's lives. But I still feel this obligation to have the least negative impact in everything I do.

It's as if I do a constant calculation of all the people involved in any situation, their level of goodness/badness, how much I care about them, how much they care about me, what their life consists of, what c*** they have had in it and I finally come up with what I might do. No wonder I'm exhausted. No wonder I can never win. I am trying to do the best possible thing in the world around me. At all times.

I have been thinking about this more and more since I last posted on here. I think how the strongest emotion I can remember as a child was this real frustration with my older brother. I could not understand how he couldn't see how his actions affected us. He seemed to have that part of him missing and I could not understand it. It drove me crazy.

So I think I have gone the other way. Arabella's posts have really hit home with me. I'm striving for a certain type of perfectionism. But it's not perfectionism because being a perfectionist is a flaw in itself so I can't be doing that.

I am getting MUCH MUCH better at saying no but it's STILL really hard. This festival last weekend, that man who was buying me alcohol and trying to get me to go to the gig. Previously I'd have gone! Or I'd have accepted and then made an excuse. For me top say no to somebody's face is a huge step for me. All that day I was saying no to these crazy people I was with. I could have gone home but I stayed the course, saw the bands I wanted to see and said what I needed to say (almost). I really am undergoing a massive change. I came away thinking that they would think I was being awkward. Before I'd have avoided people thinking that, at all costs.

I can do not nice. I'm quite good at not nice but only if someone's been not nice first or if they aren't a nice person. My script isn't being nice, it's doing my best, always. That's impossible and I know it.

I am practicing the new script. I am having to say no all over the place.

I also have no idea of my impact. I tend to under imagine any positive impact and over imagine a negative one. I pull back from imagining anything positive because I hate my narcissistic stuff but I also know that imagining the negative impact is just as narcissistic.

ANYWAY... .  where I've got to is... .  accepting. Saying no, enforcing my boundary and letting it be for myself. Moving along. Recognising it makes me feel all the things it makes me feel and just getting on with it. I'm trying to take out the obligation to do the right thing.

[zaqsert]

Maria1, I'm really impressed with the work you've been doing.   

While it sure can be hard to practice your new script, I hope it soon starts becoming more comfortable, either as you see that it is working or as you start feeling that it helps you get to where you really want to be.

Thanks also for sharing your journey, thoughts, and revelations.  As I've been following your thread, it's helped me to think through why I've done similar things and, to some extent, still do.

Congrats, and thanks!

[Phoenix.Rising]

I am getting MUCH MUCH better at saying no but it's STILL really hard.

I really am undergoing a massive change.

I am practicing the new script. I am having to say no all over the place.

Saying no, enforcing my boundary and letting it be for myself. Moving along. Recognising it makes me feel all the things it makes me feel and just getting on with it. I'm trying to take out the obligation to do the right thing.

This is very good stuff, Maria.   

I've been thinking about boundaries a lot myself and I've noticed some changes, but I also realize I have some work to do.  I usually end up having to write new boundaries down on paper.  I tend to follow my own advice better that way, but that pen seems to weigh 1,000 lbs. sometimes.  For me, if I write it down it becomes more real.

It's really cool watching you change.  Be good to yourself.

[tcevans78]

So I've been reading this post and thinking it over.  When you said that you aren't seeking attention, rather you're just trying to live your life, then people make you feel obligated and then you have a hard time backing off... .  that made a lot of sense to me.

Here's how I process it.  I don't know if it helps you at all or not.  I could never learn to be so up front to verbally tell a person I'm not interested.  I may also not be able to avoid a person or cut them off if I'm not interested.  The idea of a script is great - and will come in handy I'm sure.  But I just had to switch my mindset.  I copied this from other successful people I noticed doing it and I think it works wonders.    

I think of it as this: we all make bids for attention from people whose attention we value.  You dress nice, behave in a friendly manner, and you make a good impression.  :)on't forget this puts you in the power seat.  You are the one who put all this effort into cultivating yourself to be a fine woman.  This gives you a competitive edge in the world.  It literally ranks you higher.  Physical appearance and social graces are very, very important in the social world, business world, and dating world.  This hard work you've done needs to pay YOU.  AND ONLY YOU.  You owe no one.  If you want to do a proverbial tithe of 10% of the fruits of your labor - find a worthy person to mentor - someone who is low income and in a homeless shelter and having a hard time getting on her feet.  You don't let others come and reach into your purse to spend money - so why can they spend your time and attention?

I completely understand wanting to set yourself apart from those you know who have unsavory character or behavior.  Check that off your list.  You've done it.  You've defined yourself as unique.  Now, there's nothing left to prove to anyone but YOURSELF.  Because again, all the rewards (and consequences) will be YOURS.  

So, when others make bids for your precious attention.  :)ecide.  :)oes this person get my precious attention? (just like when you're shopping for a blouse.)  Will giving this person my precious attention IMPROVE MY LIFE?  :)oes it help me LIVE MY BEST LIFE? IN THIS MOMENT?  

If not - it's not a matter of what you do to this person/say to this person.  This person is irrelevant.  You don't have to shut a person down.  You simply think to yourself... .  what would I like to place my attention on?  Is it this person? No.  What is it?  

Then you put your attention on that thing.  The person will realize it and go away all by his/herself.  This is not rude.  This is self-serving.  Because you are fully responsible for making this one life the absolute best it can be.  For you.  

I know you know this, but just wanted to say it strongly to support the idea that it's not about the other person and how you relate to them.  It's about your time and attention and what you do with it.  If your neighbor is standing there chatting away about how hard her day has been, and has you trapped in your driveway.  What would you rather be doing in that moment?  Go do it.  Say, "Oh my gosh that's terrible!  I would hate that!  Well, I've got to run.  Take care!"  Turn on your heel and speed walk away.    

If you have a date and enjoy yourself, but don't want to meet again. The guy is all into you and making bids for your attention, but you're not interested - what do you say to him without feeling bad/guilty you led him on?  You tell him what you'll be doing.  If he asks you out for next Tuesday say, Oh, I can't.  I'll be baking a cherry cake that day.  What about Thursday, Oh, sorry. I'm staying in to watch my favorite movie for the 100th time.  

If a person confronts you and says, "what's the matter? I thought we had fun.  :)on't you want to see me again?  Say, "I have so many other things to do (implied: that are more rewarding experiences for me).  Thank you for taking the time to meet with me last week/spending long hours chatting/etc.  Take care of yourself, okay?  I've got to run.  Bye, bye."  

Maybe "I've got to run or else I'm going to be late." is my script.  .  

[Rose Tiger]

Wow, Maria.  You got me to thinking.  I have an older BPD sister that certainly took a toll on the family.  Sucked up all the energy, like your brother.  My parents divorced and dad lives in another state but when he did call me, it was to ask how she was doing.  Makes me wonder if in dating world, I'm looking for a dad.  Lol, hope not.  I do feel very adament that they get to know me, don't idealize me, thankyouverymuch.  Ex liked everything about me, during that mirroring phase.  I did feel that he did get to know me.  He liked everything I liked.  He was intensely interested in what was going on in my life.  I found that very attractive.  I never felt engulfed of that feeling of, this person is getting too close and the worry that I was going to have to hurt this very nice person by rejecting them.  He kept some part of him just out of reach, the part that doesn't exist, the ability to be initimate with another person.

The thought of telling someone, sorry, I'm just not that into you is very scary to me.  It's almost like I have a wall that keeps them from getting close enough to where I would have to say it if need be.  Being friends means it never has to be on the table.  We are just friends so nothing to reject.  Is it a fear of real intimacy?  Maybe I'm lacking that ability.  Scared to get close, to trust, not skilled.  Something along those lines... .   

[Maryiscontrary]

These are great posts.

Maria, this is no different than learning a language or rehabbing in physical therapy. It's a btch having to learn a new set of patterns. Your fear and confusion are totally normal and part of the growing process of new neural pathways. This is hard damn work.