Personality pleasing perfection

[Cumulus]

Everything in its own time. I have learned to be patient these last two years, me the impatient one. It seems as though none of this learning can be rushed, it just has to gradually reveal itself in its own time, layer after layer. It started the night I found out about my xBPDh. I was sobbing to myself in my room, who is he, what is he. Without my thought the words, he is a liar, came from my mouth. The next morning when I turned on the car the audio book I had been listening to the day before resumed.  As I leaned to turn it off so I could think about what had transpired the words on the disc stopped me. They were, " you are not totally, completely, and irrevocably responsible for everyone, and everything, that's my job, God. ". This wasn't a religious sermon or something I was listening to, just a novel. The words stopped me cold and I replayed them again and again. That was the start of finding me.

What I kept going back to and struggling with was my need to understand why I had stayed in the relationship so long. I really wanted codependent to fit. So many others here felt it fit them, why couldn't it fit me. It would be an answer, something I could work on. In a recent thread I  posted something along those lines. An exasperated response to me was if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it   It was a good thought for me to consider, like Cinderella's sisters who couldn't squeeze into the glass shoe, I just wasn't able to squeeze into the codependent shoe. No matter that I wanted to.

So last Thursday night a had a group of friends over. One was saying thank you to me for the great food I had made. I said you're welcome, and then turned the conversation back to how she deserved it because of all she had done. Another friend leaned over and said, " just, you're welcome" in my ear. I said what?  He replied why can't you just say you're welcome, that's it. Why indeed. I spent some time thinking about it and responded to him in an email on the weekend saying the following.

You're right, I have a great need to turn it around and recognize the good in someone else. But why that consistent need? I mean there are the obvious answers, I don't feel good about myself, I don't want to be recognized or acknowledged, or I don't feel worthwhile enough to accept the compliment but those answers, although maybe with a bit of truth, really aren't the real reason. I think it comes from a learned need to please. To make sure others are not offended and that they feel good. Obviously from the rage I dealt with first with my father and now XH I learned to appease the fiery beast that could unprovoked lash out. My most likely answer to why I can't just say thank you or you're welcome is because I use that shield of deflection. It has been a most effective defence for me, turning all emotion back to the source and maintaining peace at any cost.

THEN, last night I am watching an old movie, 28 Days, with Sandra Bullock. She is sitting in group therapy and there is a woman there with a sign around her neck that says confront me if I people please.     people pleasing personality, had never heard of it, googled it and there I am. There was an article by Jay Earley, one of the reasons he gives for people developing this personality is fear of attack, sometimes personality pleasing is an attempt to prevent someone from being angry with you. Hll yes, prevent someone from being angry with me and towards my kids. I found another article under Livestrong that also felt like me.

What I found really interesting was one of the irrational beliefs of people with this personality:  You must always be understanding and have an open mind with people who are hurting you or putting you down. This I feel to be at the core of why I stayed so long.

So, I am wondering,

- is a people pleasing personality just another aspect of codependency

- has anyone dealt with this and how

- any article or book suggestions that you found helpful

- is jay Earley a credible source

I continue to be amazed at the way insight has arrived in my life.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi cumulus.  Yes, I too am a People Pleaser, the most straightforward definition for me being I put everyone else's needs and feelings ahead of my own.  I've always done this.  People like me are perfect marks for pwBPD.  I've dug a lot to the source, FOO issues, where I needed to behave a certain way to gain acceptance and avoid criticism, so I was always looking externally for clues on how to be, how to act, what to say, what to feel.  Later in life I learned that I could make most anyone like me by being who I thought they wanted me to be and focusing on meeting their needs.  And obviously that's a great way to get taken advantage of, and if my own needs got met in the process it was pure coincidence, although people did like me, I made sure of it.  They liked me, but they rarely respected me.

So now, having escaped BPD hell, which was 180 degrees from what I wanted and needed, and she was a full-time project, the questions really arose: what do I want?  Well, let me think about that.  For a while.  One of the problems with focusing externally and trying to meet everyone else's needs is I totally lost touch with mine, to the point I kinda forgot I had any.  And now, getting selfish, in the best of ways, what do I want?  How do I really feel?  How many things am I doing out of a sense of obligation, when I could have said no, and why am I still going into situations focusing on meeting other's people's needs, hoping mine will get met by default?  Life changing these questions, and I've only been at it a few months, but already I'm much happier, and it seems like a door has opened and there's much more to be revealed.  Yes, my needs matter, in fact they're the most important needs to me, and if I don't make them a priority, who will?

Does any of that resonate?

[maria1]

Hi Cumulus

I'm a big one for saying over and over on here- codependency is all about definition. My definition is basically if you put others needs over your own as a way of not dealing with your own dysfunction then you fit! That's how I fit. Over and over again.

Which also means people pleasing does fit into Codependency, whichever definition you use, I think. The thing is does it matter- why do you need a label? Hell I know I do! I'm desperate for one. My therapist doesn't use them and is encouraging me not to. It actually really helps not to have them and not to focus on them in the group work I'm doing.

Right now my main focus is 'reciprocal relationships'. I'm on the search for a relationship I can give that label to, just once in my life that would be great!

You're doing really amazing self searching and hard work Cumulus. I'm full of admiration and respect for you. It's not easy 

[maria1]

PS Have you looked at the lonely child schema? rang a bell with me but not entirely. I am on a quest to understand and justify other peoples' actions and not necessarily please.

We are all individuals after all. 

[Maryiscontrary]

There is nothing wrong with going out of your way to make others comfortable, just make sure you do it with people who value  and appreciate it. And don't do it when you do not have the resources, eg, exhaustion. I see this a very simple. Indeed, it become ridiculously simple when you don't seek validation from others. You do it because you want to, and that it makes you feel good in the universe, not because it makes you forget yourself.

[fromheeltoheal]

I agree with you about labels maria.  Initially I find them helpful, since if someone notices that I have a 'thing' that has a label, it means I'm not the only one, and I've just joined the group of people with that 'thing'.  It makes me not feel alone and terminally unique.  But then that label can be a limiting identity which then leads to self-fulfilling prophesies.  So not capitalizing labels, like in did in this thread, and just noticing traits in myself that fit and that I share with others, is healthier.

The lonely child schema fits for me, in that I am understanding-driven, and feel much more comfortable with people when I feel like I understand them and their motivations.  And with my BPD ex I projected idealized traits on her to help me understand, and then my projections clashed with reality in an ugly way.  I see codependency as an unbalanced relationship, with one partner being the full time project, which is beneficial to the other one because they get to focus externally and avoid their own crap.  I wasn't in that place for long with my BPD ex: after we give and give and give, eventually we ask where's mine?  Well, there was nothing for me, I wasn't getting, so I left, which is the healthiest thing I did in that relationship.

So I'm sitting here wondering why do I want to please people to a fault?  Several reasons.  1) I want to genuinely help someone because I care about them. 2) I want acknowledgment for my good deeds, external validation that I'm 'good.' 3) I want to avoid confrontation so I acquiesce and submit. 4) I want to avoid my own issues by focusing outward on other people and their needs, rescuing.

I agree mary that pleasing other people to avoid yourself is not healthy, and going out of your way for someone when you're exhausted is a sure sign.  So it seems simple: please other people when you want to, care about them, and it's the right thing to do.  Don't please people to avoid confrontation or to avoid ourselves.  Sometimes I need external validation, like right now in light of BPD devaluation, but pleasing people to get it is backhanded; how about I just ask for it directly, instead of giving in hopes of getting?  What a concept.

[Suzn]

I agree the labels aren't important. The behaviors are, how they affect you and where they came from. I have a question Cumulus, would it be fair to say you would be a pleaser to keep yourself and your children safe? Were your people pleasing tendencies there prior to your children being born?

[Phoenix.Rising]

My propensity to people please stems from my FOO.  My uBPD mother essentially taught me to people please with her.  If I was overly attentive to her 'needs' then I was 'rewarded' for being 'good'.  I'm just starting to get a better grip on some of this, and it is not easy. 

I'm not saying this applies for you, but I'm getting a clearer picture of where it stems from with me.  I do believe I care about other people and I can be empathetic, but a lot of it for me was a learned behavior, so not really natural, so not really me!  If I am true to myself I will probably be telling people to take a hike in the near future instead of trying to please.   

[Cumulus]

Thanks all, some great thoughts. I agree, usually labels aren't important. . Putting labels on people really doesn't matter to me either, in fact I wish we could avoid it entirely. That is why it is so out of character for me to be so focused on putting a label on what my problem is. There was a typo in my intro. I was not married 25 years, it was 35.  I married at 19 and I put him out at 55. I am 57 now. I feel like I am running out of time and I have a huge need to know what was wrong with me, what was wrong with an intelligent, well educated woman, who is well respected in her work place, has many friends and truly enjoys life, yet this same woman could be deceived, lied to, controlled and manipulated for 35 years!  What was wrong. I felt like if I couldn't put a label on it I couldn't fix it and I have to fix it. I have no choice, this is the remainder of my life, this last bit that I took back for me.

I have to say it was a surreal experience reading the definitions and articles on people pleasing behaviour traits that I found. I feel like I found a key. I don't know what all it means yet, I still have to read and understand more about it. But today at work I looked at people differently. I thought as I looked at them, I have a choice, I can choose to like you or not. This is not something I have ever considered before.

I am not a gifter, neither do I have a problem saying no to someone, my issue is that if I were to meet you I wouldn't be thinking about whether or not I liked you, I would be picking up on your personality and adapting my own to be pleasing to you. Chances are you would like me. But is that really me? Suzn, I don't know if those behaviours were there before my kids. That is part of the problem, I married young and spent my adult years caring for my family and trying to maintain sanity with my xBPDh and I forget who I ever was if I had ever known to begin with. Phoenixr, yes, my FOO also played a large role in this. The extent of which I had hidden well from myself.

I have no choice but to search for understanding of myself. I have always known that there was something important missing in my life. That something important is deep and strong roots of connectedness to the people I care about. I don't want my life to be over and have never developed those deep, loving and trusting connections. That is why I search so hard.

Thank you my dear encouragers Maria and fhth. Your words mean much to me. And Mary, I smiled when I read your post, many more like that and we will have to change your name to maryisntcontrary.

[Suzn]

Cumulus I understand feeling the need to figure it out and fix it. I can also understand this feeling a little scary, not sure if I'm reading that right, however, it is also an exciting time for you. You are starting to learn more about who you are. You saw an issue with yourself and immediately started investigating and, AND, redirected your thoughts as they were happening. That's a big deal. Kudos, really.

I would suggest you explore your fears. Why do you think you would size someone's personality up to please them not caring whether or not you really liked them? People pleasers generally have a number of fears, I certainly did. It may sound silly but ask yourself these questions, and look at several sides of the question.

This was one of the first questions my T asked me, "how often are/were you afraid?" It was a pivotal point for me. 

[Cumulus]

Hi suzn, not scary no. Exciting, I'd probably say yes, but mostly very intense. There are days I'd like to just toss all the searching aside and go have fun, no more self discovery. Fortunately, I have developed patience because I know this work of understanding has to be done. I've delayed far too long already.

I will give some thought to the fear part. I hadn't considered that before. Why would I want to please someone. Well first I wouldn't ever consider not liking someone, I had to like them. If I thought there was something objectionable about them, I just figured, poor person has problems. They are probably a good person under that. And, by trying to give you what I think you would want ( and I am pretty successful at it ) , I get to be liked, you won't be angry with me, you won't look too closely at me because I've turned the focus on you, and I think there is probably a certain amount of control, although I hate to admit it, that I obtain in the situation. I think that's mostly it. But, I am just starting to give this idea some thought so may change some. Thank you for taking the time to respond. Did you consider yourself a people pleaser as well?  Do you mind me asking what were some of your fears?

[Suzn]

And, by trying to give you what I think you would want ( and I am pretty successful at it ) , I get to be liked, you won't be angry with me

This was one of my fears. I would agree control is at the heart of it. It's uncomfortable when someone is angry with you. Nobody enjoys that. If you can control someone being angry with you then you don't have to feel uncomfortable. That encompasses many, many situations for my fears. Every bit stemming from my FOO. Being "seen" or put on the spot was very uncomfortable, thus was one of my biggest fears. So, making mistakes would fall into that, thus my perfectionism. (or grand attempts at it) 

[fromheeltoheal]

Yeah, me too.  I've learned that one reason to be who you wanted me to be was to avoid confrontation, but the other was a backhanded way to get my needs met; focus on meeting another person's needs, especially someone I admired or wanted to like me, and somehow they would meet my needs.  Of course I focused out so much i got out of touch with my own needs, and certainly never asked for what I needed, so how would I even know if they were getting met?  Went totally on feel I guess, never having my current level of introspection. 

So now?  I'm looking at new people and trying to get an idea of their personality, to see if they can meet my needs on some level, now that they're a priority.

[Iced]

As a child growing up, I received a lot of bullying from my peers... .  and also a lot of praise from my teachers and for the bulk majority of my primary and secondary education, I struggled with coming to terms with being caught between two extremes of the spectrum.  Added to the fact that my family was very much education-oriented, I was ripe for developing the, "Am I doing good enough?  Have I done too much?" problem.

As a very learning and curiosity-driven genius (no, literally), I was very much a natural 'overachiever' at my school (wanted to learn everything and do everything and was curious about everything and was very detail-oriented) which frequently added fuel to the bullying fire while inadvertently putting me in the position to be the teacher's favorite.

Ironically, this 'genius'-ness is linked to another condition and so where I got the plus of being 'that smart one', I also got the minus of suffering from other problems... .  most notably, socialization-related problems.  What a mess.

I received so many mixed signals at school - bullying from jealousy and hatred (which I never understood until way late) and praise from being an eager student (my teachers, thank goodness, were all direct about that) that it became a miserable place for me and really drove my sensory processing nuts.  So much feedback, TOO much feedback, CONFLICTING FEEDBACK ARGH!   To this date, I literally see my past schooling experience as one... .  or the other.  Great or horrible because that was literally the sort of environment I was in.

My socialization-related challenges coupled with so many years of the treatment (which I didn't understand and probably because of my challenges with socialization) I had endured from my peers for 18 years of my life ended up giving birth to anger issues, frustration/discouragement issues, feelings of bitterness, feelings of jadedness, feelings of cynicism, and a LOT of confusion.

Fast forward to my university years and everything exploded into one hot mess.

With the addition of things like... .  dating, for example, I saw my previously 'this is really kind of hard' socialization challenge blow up into a 'this is REALLY REALLY REALLY difficult OMG what am I supposed to do?' socialization challenge.

So many of my socialization attempts in my earlier years had blown up in my face and where I had learned to mostly shrug it off, when it came to something like 'love' and love, I really wanted and hoped for things to work because... .  well... .  who DOESN'T want love to work out?

... .  And so, me thinking I really needed to make sure I didn't screw up, I overcompensated and one of the things I did was try to please my partners to the point of compromising my own boundaries even though I was very very VERY uncomfortable doing so... .  which contributed to self-esteem issues and feelings of resentment towards my partners... .  and towards myself.

Bad idea.  BAD IDEA. BAD ICED, BAD!

Thankfully, I went into therapy around the same time to try and get a hold on managing some other things in my life and so I very conveniently was able to get counseling for my 'people pleasing' problem as well once my therapist learned I was struggling with socialization issues.

Therapy was a godsend.  If you think I type a ton here, well, you can only imagine how much I might talk sometimes and the good thing is, I let it rip.  Everything came out.  Past, present, things that bothered me, things that made me happy, my challenges, my struggles, my triumphs.  It was good for me to have safe place to finally 'deal' with everything in a more constructive and positive way but it was even better that I pretty much didn't filter anything when talking.

Through therapy, I learned that I'm different (well, gee, duh, everyone's different, but I mean in terms of my socialization challenges) and just because I'm different and do things differently and socialize differently and even process things differently doesn't mean that it's necessarily a bad thing and that I needed to stop being too hard on myself and learn to trust that yes I have done 'enough' and realize that MY opinions, feelings, whatevers matter, too and just because other people may try and bully you or put you down and may be the loudest people around doesn't mean that they are right.

My therapist was so, so right, but... .  it didn't really sink in.

Or rather, I had a hard time believing it... .  at first.

But then I met someone who thought that they were all that who made up crap and told lies left right and center... .  and who walked over my boundaries and put me down in front of their friends.

And it finally sank in.  When I saw the WTF expression on a mutual friend's face, it REALLY sank in.

Resentment - that resentment that I had felt the first swallows of before - and anger kicked in and I did what I should have done before.

In front of everyone, I reasserted my boundaries in no uncertain terms, called them out in front of their friends, and then left and told them that I wasn't going to put up with their crap anymore.

After that, everything - as the cliche goes - is history.

Or... .  mostly history.

I'll admit that I err on the side of caution, now.  I know that I have a 'deficiency' at times when it comes to recognizing when people 'aren't quite what they seem' because of my socialization challenges and so I take my time in getting to know people.  I also know that I still have that BOO (I call it Background of Origin ) in my past where I still have feelings about the conflicting ways that I was treated and so I make sure to 'reality check' myself at intervals to make sure that I'm not acting or reacting because of my past or if I am to be honest with myself that I am so I can effectively deal with it.

Here's something I think is interesting, though.

When I was in a relationship with my partner who had BPD (who was undergoing regular treatment/therapy and meds), they turned out to be one of the most protective and considerate partners I had ever known.

It wasn't in a controlling way, but as long as they weren't struggling unduly with self-awareness and emotion regulation issues, they were the first to jump to my defense if someone tried picking on me and I was having trouble dealing with it.  Though they had some pretty wild ups and downs - especially downs, that behavior continued well into their recovery.

They were also one of the most compassionate people I had ever known, able to empathize and share that empathy because they, too, had struggled with social ostracization and though they didn't suffer from the other stuff I had to deal with, they also were understanding and non-demanding.

This is why I truly believe that beneath disorderly thought patterns and dsyregulated emotions, the actual non-BPD person underneath CAN really be a 'good' and 'nice' person.

This doesn't mean excuse BPD or try to excuse BPD or try and wait it out longer when the situation is clearly not getting better or allow yourself to get blinded by what-ifs, NO, but IF the pwBPD or with similar behavioral issues gets help and stays with the program and is able to recover, there is the possibility that you will see the TRUTHFUL side of that intense, brilliant, charming, sensitive person.

[Cumulus]

Hi iced, wow, what a read. It sounds like you have really spent some searching time. I wonder why so much of the memory space in our brain is filled with childhood and adolescent memories. Although the five to seventeen year age would only account for about 20% of my life the memories of those years account for far more space. Little wonder the hurts from parents, teachers and in your case schoolyard bullies make such impact in our lives.

My xBPDh was also protective and considerate, to an extreme. That behaviour was part of what deceived me. He used it to manipulate me into believing that I was needed, important and special in his life. And I was, but mostly to meet his needs. That was the part I didn't see.

PS. Suzn, I am thinking on the what do you fear question. My first thought was nothing. When I think that I know there is something I need to consider. Thank you for the question.

[Iced]

Yeah, Cumulus, I'm amazed, too.  But I guess that's why there's stuff called FOO and FOG, right?

I think what happens is, the stuff you go through when you're younger - if not properly dealt with and understood at the time - carries into the future and keeps on carrying as a byproduct of needing to deal and needing to move on... .  but without proper understanding.

It's like a rolling stone that DOES gather moss - the moss being all the  that were never addressed properly and were simply folded into and integrated into the self which is the rolling stone.

So at the end all be all when at the point of finally looking honestly at the moss-covered stone, there's this gigantic boulder (the self)... .  and attached to it are layers and layers and layers of moss  ! 

Does that make any sense?

[Clearmind]

So, I am wondering,

- is a people pleasing personality just another aspect of codependency

- has anyone dealt with this and how

- any article or book suggestions that you found helpful

- is jay Earley a credible source

My therapist uses the term over accommodating. It’s natural to want to please others and there is nothing wrong with that and no I don’t see it as co-dependency. When we get to a stage of being over accommodating and it interfering with our own needs, wants, health and happiness and it moves beyond our personal limits and boundaries then yes its co-dependent behaviour – IMO.

It’s very common for partner of pwBPD to have over accommodating tendencies. This is how I viewed myself. I’m not a people pleaser – but – I do over extend myself.

I think you are right that by pleasing we are attempting to avoid conflict. We avoid conflict so we don’t have to face vulnerability and flaws. Keep the peace. I was a peace keeper my entire life – I was taught to be having grown up in an alcoholic household.

Wonderful and simple book: I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better - Gary Lundberg and Joy Lundberg

[Maryiscontrary]

Kind, giving people are what keep civilizations and families from falling apart. I think it is very important to honor altruism. The only thing to really do differently is

1. Don't expend resources when you are depleted

2. Don't expend resources on selfish jerks

[Cumulus]

Thank you clear mind, the suggested book is downloading as I write. The title words need to become my mantra, I Don't Have To Make Everything All Better. It really sums up how I feel, that I am personally responsible to make good things happen in others lives, even people I don't really know. My other mantra is that I am not totally, completely and irrevocably responsible for everyone and everything, that's Gods job.

It has been a week of revelations for me. Many thoughts to consider.

[Cumulus]

Clearmind, just into the first few pages, I love this line. "Validation is not a cure all. It is a way to get some relief from carrying burdens that are not yours."  That is exactly it, carrying burdens that were never mine to carry. No wonder I was so tired at the end.

[Clearmind]

Pleased you got the book. It's really wonderful and I wholeheartedly agree with that quote. We place a huge burden on ourselves.

The other interesting thing about learning to step back is you redefine relationships. You begin to see clearly who are energy sappers and who only look to others who can fix/rescue them. I have gained a few new friendships and let a few go in the past 2 years.

Enjoy!

[Phoenix.Rising]

I agree with what Suzn was suggesting.

When I started getting honest with myself, I found that fear permeated much of my life.  I could not see it before.  I thought I was fearless in most respects.  I had and have a lot of courage, but there has been an undercurrent of fear.  Mainly fear of not getting what I think I want/need and fear of losing something I already have.  One can tie all sorts of things into those two aspects.

[Cumulus]

So right phoenixR. I have been thinking about what I fear in my life since Suzn posted that. I came up with four different things. It is a pretty significant eye opener.

[Phoenix.Rising]

I'm curious, what did you come up with?  (If you're comfortable sharing.)

[Cumulus]

Here they are:

Fear of losing the love of my adult children and my two best friends. (Irrational, but they are the only people I have ever had in my life that I truly love and cherish except for my grandmother, long gone).

Fear of being found out that I am not a deep well of kindness and understanding, but rather a shallow mess of insecure emotions.

Fear of not knowing, anything and everything. I am desperate to understand the truth after having lived in the darkness of his lies and deceit and my own willingness to believe.

Fear of intimacy, I must protect myself.

Now I guess I need to add another, fear that you will think I am totally whacked after reading this.

[catsprt]

I am "lucky" as I got to see my rage in a dream and it wasn't nice... . When I woke up, I resisted the temptation to rationalize or justify it. It has taken me a while to own my not so perfect moments, but I must be getting used to these. All this to say that I see lots of value and courage in your words.

[fromheeltoheal]

Fear of being found out that I am not a deep well of kindness and understanding, but rather a shallow mess of insecure emotions.

That's been a big one for me too Cumulus, although I've realized I'm pretty transparent, and folks see through any facade I try and create anyway.  And then my BPD ex, in the process of idealization through devaluation, learned all the intimate stuff she could, and then used it against me later, and it made me go 'to hell with it' because I deserve better, there are people who are willing to accept me for who i am, and trying to be someone I'm not is just too much damn work.  Note to self: let freak flag fly.

[Phoenix.Rising]

Now I guess I need to add another, fear that you will think I am totally whacked after reading this.

  I don't think you're whacked at all.  Your posts and responses always seem very cogent to me.  I'm not laughing at you, btw.  I have the same fear.  I think that's a fairly normal one.  Society teaches us to act like we've always got everything together.  Who always has everything together?  No one, that's who!  It takes guts to look at our fears.  Good job.

I have the fear, too, that I will be found out and then she/he will not like me anymore.  This was most likely learned from my FOO.  I am supposed to be perfect.  What a load of crap.  I hope to find a partner who accepts me for me, all of me, warts and all.  I have to first accept myself, and I think I'm getting there, slowly, a day at a time.