3.5 months NC. Almost a year apart. I still miss her.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I must suck at moving on.

I initiated the break up.  uBPDexgf behavior was getting to be its worst.  Telling me she needed space but going out and drinking and flirting all night with guy "friends", lying about stuff, etc.  When I broke up with her, she didn't object at all.  In fact, she tried to make it so it was her breaking up with me.

But when we were good together, man, were we good.  You can say it was all idealization and mirroring, and maybe it was, but it still seems so real to me.  It was as damn near perfect as a relationship could be during those good times.  Then the push/pull, the drama, the wishy washy would set throw me for a loop.  Then we'd be amazing again for months on end.  Repeat.  I just couldn't take it anymore.  Why couldn't it just stay good?  Obviously the potential was there.

So, after the BU, she initiated contact about once a month, every month, for 6 or 7 months.  (The beginning of Feb was the last time I heard from her.  She wanted to know if I was OK.  I said "yes" and she said "OK".)  Was she reaching out?  Was she extending the olive branch?  I thought I'd be strong and not "take the bait."  Yet, it still eats at me often that I didn't really respond in any engaging kind of way.  The soft side of me thinks it was too cruel and unforgiving and maybe I shunned passive attempts at reconciliation.

Example of text messages:

Her:  Struggli, I saw this and I thought of you.  I thought you might be interested.  (Pic attached)

Me:  Thanks.

Nothing ever sufficed to indicate directly that she wanted to be with me and work things out, though, so I refused to respond unless she said something along the lines of "Struggli, I know I've been a b---h and I'm sorry and I really love you.  I've had time to think about it and I really want to do whatever it takes to be a good girlfriend."  But the messages were never so direct.  Not even close.  So I either ignored them altogether or gave the one word responses like "thanks", "cool", and "nice."

Did my attempt to be strong at NC save me, or did it burn a bridge that I didn't want burned?

I have been missing her increasingly more, which is not the feeling I expected at this point.  Maybe I keep fantasizing that the message I've been waiting for (the one about her apologizing and making everything right) will finally come through. 

[struggli]

I must suck at moving on.

I initiated the break up.  uBPDexgf behavior was getting to be its worst.  Telling me she needed space but going out and drinking and flirting all night with guy "friends", lying about stuff, etc.  When I broke up with her, she didn't object at all.  In fact, she tried to make it so it was her breaking up with me.

But when we were good together, man, were we good.  You can say it was all idealization and mirroring, and maybe it was, but it still seems so real to me.  It was as damn near perfect as a relationship could be during those good times.  Then the push/pull, the drama, the wishy washy would set throw me for a loop.  Then we'd be amazing again for months on end.  Repeat.  I just couldn't take it anymore.  Why couldn't it just stay good?  Obviously the potential was there.

So, after the BU, she initiated contact about once a month, every month, for 6 or 7 months.  (The beginning of Feb was the last time I heard from her.  She wanted to know if I was OK.  I said "yes" and she said "OK".)  Was she reaching out?  Was she extending the olive branch?  I thought I'd be strong and not "take the bait."  Yet, it still eats at me often that I didn't really respond in any engaging kind of way.  The soft side of me thinks it was too cruel and unforgiving and maybe I shunned passive attempts at reconciliation.

Example of text messages:

Her:  Struggli, I saw this and I thought of you.  I thought you might be interested.  (Pic attached)

Me:  Thanks.

Nothing ever sufficed to indicate directly that she wanted to be with me and work things out, though, so I refused to respond unless she said something along the lines of "Struggli, I know I've been a b---h and I'm sorry and I really love you.  I've had time to think about it and I really want to do whatever it takes to be a good girlfriend."  But the messages were never so direct.  Not even close.  So I either ignored them altogether or gave the one word responses like "thanks", "cool", and "nice."

Did my attempt to be strong at NC save me, or did it burn a bridge that I didn't want burned?

I have been missing her increasingly more, which is not the feeling I expected at this point.  Maybe I keep fantasizing that the message I've been waiting for (the one about her apologizing and making everything right) will finally come through. 

[recoil]

Nothing ever sufficed to indicate directly that she wanted to be with me and work things out, though, so I refused to respond unless she said something along the lines of "Struggli, I know I've been a b---h and I'm sorry and I really love you.  I've had time to think about it and I really want to do whatever it takes to be a good girlfriend."  But the messages were never so direct.  Not even close.  So I either ignored them altogether or gave the one word responses like "thanks", "cool", and "nice."

I find myself in this boat.  Sometimes I want to reach out and open a dialog because I don't think she can take responsibility for her contributions to the demise of our interaction -- but if I reach out and give her the ability to save face, maybe we could start again (I really miss the good times).  She couldn't take that responsibility during our interaction, she certainly can't do it now -- and most probably, she'll never be able to do so in the future.  I don't want to be in a relationship with someone like that (I have to keep reminding myself of this).  So, with a heavy heart, I stop myself from reaching out every time.

I don't know if I'll ever find someone who gives me the good times without the disordered bad times (don't mind "normal" bad times; nobody is perfect, including myself) but I will keep looking.  Until then, it's self-work time.

[mango_flower]

You worded this so beautifully, and I have had ALL those same feelings.

Like, WHY did this happen when it had the potential for such perfection?

I have to be honest - the ONLY way I have moved on (and I still wobble from time to time but it's getting less) is to ignore, block and be an ostrich (stick my head in the sand).

I did 6 months of verbalizing EVERYTHING on here, analysing every day. One day, I knew I needed to stop. Enough was enough.  Now and then I'll allow myself 20 mins of thinking about it.  But then I move on.

The other day I drove to our old flat we'd lived in together, and just sat outside, remembering all the hopes and dreams we had.  Some people may think I'm crazy, but I need to do these things.  Then I drove home to my new place, and went out with friends.

If she's truly BPD (which it sounds she is) then you've saved yourself a ton of heartache now you're not together.

She will not change without intense therapy, for years.  

Try and be objective, remember the bad as well as the good.

You deserve better that lying, flirting, drinking and twisting the truth.

Keep reminding yourself of that xxx

[Confusedandhurt]

Struggli,

I can definitely relate to what you're going through.  My BPDgf broke up with me last July, and I've been pushed/pulled between, "let's not have any contact with each other" to "can you call me?" or "do you have a recipe for xyz?".  The past couple of months it became clear that the only reason she contacted me was because she wanted something.  Nothing else.  So I decided to stop responding altogether.  Just in the past month alone she has called 4 times and sent me two texts asking to talk.  It's been really hard to ignore the contact, but she is in a very physical relationship with someone else and the only conclusion I can come to is that she needs something her bf can't give her.  I'm tired of feeling used, but nevertheless, I keep wondering if she wants me back.  Wishful thinking, I know... .  

You're not alone in your feelings.  I miss my ex too, alot.  We were together 4.5 years, so I still have a ways to go before I feel good without her.  Take care of yourself!

C&H

[chuckstrong]

I am in the exact situation you all describe here... .  C and H I have had the same (to a T) situation that you describe... .  She told me 4 weeks ago " move on im dating someone we are never getting back together please do not contact me again... .  to in the past couple weeks sending cute pics of us togeter and saying " i miss how much you cared for me and supported me" we are now exchanging occassional daily friendly texts... .  Its SO SO excruciating even tho i know the reason--- BPD!

It is still brutal... .  I waver minute to minute day to day but i wonder if total NC is he only way too finally get over this BUT it seems with these people its NEVER over! Ever! UGH!

Chuck---(not that strong)

[Confusedandhurt]

chuckstrong,

From my own experience and reading other posts, it appears that they never really ever go away for good.  I honestly don't get it, especially when she's in a very hot relationship with someone else.  That alone has really got me down, as she rarely exhibited that kind of behavior with me, but I digress... .  

As others have said, recovering from a relationship from a pwBPD is very different than recovering from any other relationship.  We invest so much of ourselves in the relationship and it opens very old wounds that we don't like to acknowledge.  My T is helping, but I just wish the longing will end.

You might want to ask yourself why she is still contacting you.  Everyone has their own reasons, but for my ex, she needed something (advice, a recipe, me to take a STD test - not kidding!).  It was never about me, only her.  That's why I've chosen not to respond any further, unless I get an email with more to it than, "Talk?".

[tailspin]

struggli,

I also have moments of deep longing to reconnect with my ex. 

I'm sure recovering alcoholics and drug addicts also have moments where they want a drink or a fix. 

I'm saying this because what you are feeling is normal and to be expected; we are recovering from emotional abuse and the fallout takes some time to clear out completely.

When the longing to reconnect with him comes to the surface... .  I acknowledge my feelings without acting upon them because these feelings pass.  And they will pass for you if you stop struggling against them. 

Try swimming with the current instead of against it.

tailspin

[TonyK]

Hi there, struggli and everybody.

After reading hundreds of posts in this board, written by hundreds of entirely different people, with entirely different personalities, who describe their experiences with their corresponding hundreds of different exBPD partners, a very clear conclusion can be reached, which personally amazes me.

Depsite the vast diversity of the characters of the people who report their experiences and emotions in here and despite the vast diversity of their corresponding - diagnosed or undiagnosed - exBPD partners, this whole diversity actually reduces into just two distinct psychopathologies/behavioral patterns: that of the BPD patient and that of the patient's partner (i.e., of us  ).

Every time we read a post, we can immediately identify our own self in the writer of the post: his/her experiences are also ours. His/her emotions we immediately identify as our emotions. This is also valid for the described behaviors of our exBPD partners. When reading about the actions, the texts, the e-mails of the exBPD partner of the writer of a post, most of the times we identify our own exBPD partner in these actions, text, e-mails, etc.

In other words, all of our exBPD partners and all of us in here could, in principal, be merged in just two distinct, ''collective'' personalities, i.e. the BPD patient and the BPD patient's partner.

The ''BPD patient'' character behaves within a very well defined and specific spectrum of actions, whereas the ''BPD patient's partner'' character reacts within a correspondingly well-defined framework. For example, rumination of the idealization phase, difficulty in detaching, tendency to recycle, strong belief that a r/s of similar emotional intensity is impossible to recur, etc, etc.

This is not a simple issue. Nor is it readily obvious.

We all recognize the psychopathology of our BPD exes. We all recognize that they behave in the same pattern and exhibit the same traits. However, so do we. Me, you, everyone in here. We act and feel as one and the same person, when it comes to our interaction with the BPD patient of our life.

If it is so, which I believe it is, then why can't we just be tought by the destructive experiences of our fellow members here and detach?

For example, struggli, in your post you wonder:

''

What do you really think would be different this time, if your replies to her texts were encouraging her to come back? She would have come back, indeed. Nevertheless, just for a short recycle. She would go away again. She would hurt you again. You know that.

Despite your inner hope that this time things could be different, better, your logical mind knows that this is not true. She won't change. She will never change. You can't make her change. You can't even help her change. I'm sorry. She's totally controlled by her disorder. 

''[quote author=struggli link=topic=201261.msg12254637#msg12254637

Maybe I keep fantasizing that the message I've been waiting for (the one about her apologizing and making everything right) will finally come through. 

And what will happen if one day it comes through? You will forgive her and have her back. She will stay for, lets say, a couple of months. And it'll be great! The love-making, the fun, the whole dream will be real again! But, then, she will suddenly leave abruptly again. And she will stay away for 4, 6, 10 months, a year, two years... .  who can tell, really? And you will be there, again, waiting for her to return to you, while she'll be living her life with numerous new ''loves of her life''. And then, one day, after who knows how long, she'll get back to you, for yet another recycle. For a week or two. For a month or two. Who could really tell? And guess what: she will leave, again... .  And you'll be standing-by for her, again... .  

Is this really the way you want your life to go by?

Read the stories of people who have been - literally and in various levels - destroyed, by persisting in these relationships, who have been recycled again and again, for many many years, just to end up mere shadows of their once robust selves.

Don't think their story is different than your's or mine. We are all one and the same person when it comes to BPD, remember? Read their stories, because they actually describe your future, too.

Not necessarily, though. Because the steering-wheel of your future is actually in your hands. Turn it away from BPD and their story will no longer be yours.

Be well.     

[Confused69]

I have been NC for 6 weeks now.  Moved out 2 months ago.  I loved her but couldn't take the drama and the constant arguing.  I told her she was more of a dependent then a partner.  She really didn't want me to leave but I'm thinking it was because I loved her, supported her and was pretty much all she has.  She has 4 kids.  2 w her ex husband and the other two older girls live with their boyfriends I'm the same town. But she paints them black just as much as she does me.  So I'm thinking right now  I'm black and they are white.  It's been the pattern in the past.

I was doing so good these past months wo her. But here lately I've been tempted to reach out to her thru an email or text.  But the pattern has always been that I get met with rage or her acting like she's moved on.  But then a few days or week later she will start reaching out. I know it's not worth it but I really miss her.  I haven't heard or seen her in this whole time NC.  I'm sure she has a new guy on the line and me going back would open up a whole new kind of drama.  So I come here for support. 

I have been with her off and on for 9 yrs.  I have been thru the same events many of you have written about.   Stay strong everyone.

[Clearmind]

It was as damn near perfect as a relationship could be during those good times.  Then the push/pull, the drama, the wishy washy would set throw me for a loop.  Then we'd be amazing again for months on end.  Repeat.  I just couldn't take it anymore.  Why couldn't it just stay good?  Obviously the potential was there.

Its hard to move on when our thinking is steeped in fantasy thoughts. Your hope for this relationship will not change until you change your perception of her and your relationship.

Why is it you hang onto the fantasy of this relationship when you push/pulled? Is this the basis of a healthy relationship? If so, what does a healthy relationship entail?

So, after the BU, she initiated contact about once a month, every month, for 6 or 7 months.  (The beginning of Feb was the last time I heard from her.  She wanted to know if I was OK.  I said "yes" and she said "OK".)  Was she reaching out?  Was she extending the olive branch?  I thought I'd be strong and not "take the bait."  Yet, it still eats at me often that I didn't really respond in any engaging kind of way.  The soft side of me thinks it was too cruel and unforgiving and maybe I shunned passive attempts at reconciliation.

Extending the olive branch to get back together? Her engaging in text is not extending an olive branch. Its simply contact – we don’t know the intent – its likely to mean more to you – hope has a tendency of hoping for a recycle.

Example of text messages:

Her:  Struggli, I saw this and I thought of you.  I thought you might be interested.  (Pic attached)

Me:  Thanks.

This is contact not a reengagement attempt. We seem to get confused about what engagement means. Engagement does not necessarily mean our ex’s want us back.

BPD is shame based. You reply to a text and she feels worthy. Its using you to soothe.

Nothing ever sufficed to indicate directly that she wanted to be with me and work things out, though, so I refused to respond unless she said something along the lines of "Struggli, I know I've been a b---h and I'm sorry and I really love you.  I've had time to think about it and I really want to do whatever it takes to be a good girlfriend."  But the messages were never so direct.  Not even close.  So I either ignored them altogether or gave the one word responses like "thanks", "cool", and "nice."

Yes an emotional mature text to an ex partner (you) would say just that.

Did my attempt to be strong at NC save me, or did it burn a bridge that I didn't want burned?

What is it you holding out for her? For her to see the light so you can be there to catch her?

[EyeCareSoMUCH]

I find myself in the exact same place as you at the moment. When things were good they were GOOD! The sad thing is my relationship was build on the worst foundation possible. We met shortly after she broke up with her, which I believe has BPD also. We "clicked" and she had this ability to suck me in. I was the world's greatest don't you know! Then things turned drastically. She was needy and manipulative. I still tell myself to this day, I wasn't initially attracted to her but it was her smooth talking games that sucked me in. We stopped talking for 3 months. I felt I was being used. I wanted more than a friendship and she knew that, but played around between her ex and me. After 3 months of NC she broke the silence by sending a phony apology. It said "I am sorry for the crap I SUPPOSEDLY put you through" Supposedly? What the heck, talk about not taking responsibility. Anyways I looked past it and gave her another chance. This time around she agreed to give me a chance at a relationship. God I loved this girl, and it was a dream come true. Within a week everything was back to normal and I found myself doing all the giving and not receiving anything. We dated for about 6 months and out of the blue, she dumped me. Said I was perfect but not perfect for her. Wanted to stay friends but I told her I just couldn't. What made it worse was that she had a daughter in which I grew very close to. She wanted to stay friends for her daughter's sake. I was heck no! She expected me to continue giving with no commitment. I told her I wanted no contact but after a couple days I felt bad and decided to email her. BIG MISTAKE! Told me she was done and had "flipped her switch", and that she was over it. A month goes by and I receive an email. It contained a link, and said absolutely nothing personal. The link was a news article that was related to my field of study. Now keep in mind that she also told me to leave her and her family alone and that I was creepy. So why send me an email, especially if it is about something I am interested in? I waited a couple days until I replied. I simply said "thanks" If it was meant to be an icebreaker, it was a terrible one! I told myself the email didn't warrant any response other than a "thanks" If it was more personal than yes I would have taken it further. I haven't heard anything since and it has been going on two weeks. When I did get the email, it made my heart stop. I was thinking "OMG! She is thinking of me!" I have found though she is chasing her ex and it appears that they are back together. Don't know how long that toxic situation will last but I am free! It hurts, I know but trust me you are better off. If you do go back, odds are nothing is going to be different. You may have your initial happy moment but the reality will all flood back. I love my exBPD more than words can describe and it stings! I have my good days and my bad days. You have to look at it as a lesson. I hope it all works out well for you! Hang in there, you are not alone!

[Scott72]

All this is me too! I tried nc but failed - she says she can't get back with me- regardless of the fact she loves me! I don't understand - I've asked her to explain but she won't. She wants me to leave her alone- I've said just tell me and I will, still nothing. I say tell me you don't love me, explain please so I can move on. Like all non BPD I need reasoning, which a BPD can't offer. To me if you love someone you stay with them. It kills me that her fear of being with me is stronger than her love. Yesterday she sat at the bedside of her uncle while he died. She shouldn't have to deal with these things alone

[TonyK]

Hello, Scott.

I tried nc but failed - she says she can't get back with me- regardless of the fact she loves me!

This is such a typical and common BPD ''explanation''. ''I love you, but I don't want to be with you''. Oh, really? Why not? I used to get this all the time, when I was still dealing with her. Which mentally stable person would ever give such a contradictory and paradox reasoning?

I don't understand - I've asked her to explain but she won't.

Don't pay too much attention to what she says. Besides, she wouldn't have much reasonable stuff to say, anyway.

When a pwBPD says ''I love you'' it means absolutely nothing. They use the word interchangeably, in order to express a wide range of other feelings they have, such as ''I need you'', ''I hate you'', ''I expect you to save me'', ''I expect you to be always waiting for me, whenever the heck I decide to play with you again... .  '', etc, etc.

She wants me to leave her alone- I've said just tell me and I will, still nothing. I say tell me you don't love me, explain please so I can move on. Like all non BPD I need reasoning, which a BPD can't offer.

Indeed, she can offer no reasoning. Not to you, not to anybody else. Not even to her own self, as a matter of fact. You know, several times I heard my ex saying ''I must be crazy to be thinking of leaving you... .  ''. No kidding. She'd say that openly. She was very self-aware about her mentality. Did that make any difference in the final outcome? No, none at all! Once the switch in their mind turns, whatever has been said, agreed, discussed, etc, is gone for ever. At the end of the day, after all has been said and done, the disorder always wins.

To me if you love someone you stay with them.

Does anybody even need to argue about that? This is common sense! Not to them, however.

It kills me that her fear of being with me is stronger than her love.

Ultimately, this is exactly the whole point. They are deeply ashamed of themselves. They have this deeply nested subconscious belief, that they're unworthy of being loved. My ex was fully aware of these feelings, she precisely described me her feelings of self-shame and unworthiness. No matter how much effort I put in to persuade her that these feelings have no real ground, no matter how much she seemed to accept and understand about it, in the end it made no difference.

It's a damned shame that their fear of abandonment prevails over their love, but it is what it is. Unfortunately, it cannot be fixed. This is the ultimate bitterness from the entire experience in the world of BPD. I will never be able to overcome this, I only hope to become able to live with it in the future.

[alembic]

Nothing ever sufficed to indicate directly that she wanted to be with me and work things out, though, so I refused to respond unless she said something along the lines of "Struggli, I know I've been a b---h and I'm sorry and I really love you.  I've had time to think about it and I really want to do whatever it takes to be a good girlfriend."  But the messages were never so direct.  Not even close.  So I either ignored them altogether or gave the one word responses like "thanks", "cool", and "nice."

Did my attempt to be strong at NC save me, or did it burn a bridge that I didn't want burned?

Hello struggli

Yeah, I know _exactly_ what you mean.  I too have longed to hear my wife say something almost identical to what you have written here after the bad times. But it never comes.

Yes, almost undoubtedly this was an attempt at reconciliation on her part.  But reconciliation on her terms - terms in which she is not required to accept any responsibility or blame for whatever happened between you in the past. If she said the magic phrase (and actually meant it), then this would be reconciliation on your terms, and that is something neither she (nor, incidentally, my wife) are interested in achieving.

It would also act as a stake in the ground, because from that point on, you would be able to say 'Yeah, but you said you would do whatever it took to be a good girlfriend, so why are you doing this?... .  "  They feel being so definite about their feelings hands over an enormous amount of power to the other person, so they avoid it all costs - much better to imply a reconciliation, and let you join the dots.  If it then doesn't later work out, they can claim that they didn't want the reconciliation anyway, and it was you that made all the running. 

At least in my relationship with my wife, it often seems all about the power in the relationship.  To quote from the TV series 'The Prisoner'  "Questions are a burden for others, and answers a prison for oneself'.  If you don't ever give proper answers, you are free to interpret past events as you see fit, and then you have all the power.

[Scott72]

Tony k thanks for your thoughts. Obviously you have experienced heartache too. I actually MSG my ex to say if I could help re the death of her uncle and to commend her for what she did- the reply- "there is nothing to be done its over I need to be alone! Please no more txt I am going for a meeting at bank to try and arrange an overdraft so please just stop!"

What a load of b****cks I'm sure that's just her trying to manipulate money from me. In the past I have helped, but bank shut now

[Scott72]

Another thing which really bugs me, hinders my attempts to move on, is the fact that many BPD exes return. I would love that, so I hold on to that hope. I don't think she will, seems very unlikely, but I wish I didn't have that knowledge that many do!

[DarkCurls54]

Sorry I am laughing to myself here... .    But let us consider for just one moment: WHO is painting WHO "black?"  I wonder if we can truly heal if we do not stop thinking of our exes as being "evil?"  A disease has colonized them.  And we didn't (1) cause it, we can't (2) control it and we can't (3) cure it.  We will heal when we learn to feel compassion - DISpassionate Compassion!

As for the behaviors... .  let's think just a minute about our own Projections and OWN them!

My expwBPD truly believes that it was ME who abandonned HIM.  All of our comments about NC from OUR point of view could have come from HIM about ME! 

I truly am coming to believe that part of the "mirroring" dance is that WE learn behaviors from THEM.

This is not to say that we should blame ourselves or that we aren't assessing the situation correctly.  But we, too, helped create the dynamic.

How I wish I had had this insight several years ago!  It would not have changed the eventual outcome, but I think it would have been more possible to detach without such rancor and resentment.

My ex is NOT a "bad" person.  And neither am I.

We BOTH deserve love and understanding.

[Scott72]

My ex is NOT a "bad" person.  And neither am I.

We BOTH deserve love and understanding.

Dark curls I totally agree! I find the negativity, wether born from experience or not, distressing. My pet hate is when my ex is vilified! She is ill! Not her fault! I have an illness which affects my muscles- I shouldn't be treated negatively, and neither should she. I have debated with friends and family and had heated arguments  with my brother who is fiercely protective of me and didn't like her treatment of me! she is not a bhit or evil. I miss her so much, will always love her and wish she realised that she deserves to be loved and happy.

[alembic]

Sorry I am laughing to myself here... .    But let us consider for just one moment: WHO is painting WHO "black?"  I wonder if we can truly heal if we do not stop thinking of our exes as being "evil?"  A disease has colonized them.  And we didn't (1) cause it, we can't (2) control it and we can't (3) cure it.  We will heal when we learn to feel compassion - DISpassionate Compassion!

Hello DarkCurls54!

I think your post is excellent.  And I don't have any answers to the (many) questions you raise.

I guess some of this comes from age old ideas about medicine and what it means when someone is physically ill. Various cultures have had different ideas over the generations, but nowadays, western cultures believe in pathogens that invade your body such as  viruses, bacteria etc.   What does it mean, though, when someone is 'mentally ill'?  I have never thought this question (or any answers I've ever heard) was very well defined at all. It doesn't often indicate the presence of brain pathogens.   Furthermore, what does it mean if relationship problems are caused or influenced by 'mental illness'?  In whom does the 'mental illness' reside - one person, the other, both, neither, the relationship itself?  Is it possible for otherwise mentally healthy people to have a toxic relationship, and for that particular combination of people and the relationship itself to be at fault? I simply don't know.

I truly am coming to believe that part of the "mirroring" dance is that WE learn behaviors from THEM.

Yeah. True.  But I think that is how all humans behave to some extent. We are very good as a species at trying to adapt to our environment. If we happen to live in an environment where the 'rules' are this mirroring and emotional dancing, then we learn to adapt to it.  Just as the BPD person probably learned to adapt to it in the beginning, from their original environment.

My ex is NOT a "bad" person.  And neither am I.

We BOTH deserve love and understanding.

Part of my problem in understanding all of this, is that once you start thinking about these issues, I'm not really sure how you can ever define a "bad person".  You seem to be drawn to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a bad person, and that everyone that might seem outwardly to be bad by their actions is actually a victim of some underlying mental health condition, and therefore deserves love and understanding. Can that be true? I don't really know. I guess it's also a question of the existence of free will. If I do something bad, did I have a free choice to do it, and is therefore fair to be reprimanded/punished for making that choice, or was I driven by some underlying mechanism/condition, and therefore should be helped to make better choice in future?

[DarkCurls54]

Just to clarify... .  I do believe that there are Bad, Evil people in the world.  But B. isn't one of them.   

[alembic]

Just to clarify... .  I do believe that there are Bad, Evil people in the world.  But B. isn't one of them.   

It's interesting that, for example, it is known that proportion of abnormalities in gender chromosomes combinations (e.g. XXY instead of XY) is far higher in prison populations than in the general population.  Which does suggest that unusual physiology can sometimes lead to undesirable behaviour.  Whether you might one day be able to trace all unpleasant behaviour back to some physiological cause is highly debatable, I would have thought. 

[Murbay]

DarkCurls, I completely agree too.

My ex-wife decided early on in the marriage that I needed therapy because there was something wrong with me and that was I wasn't attentive enough to her needs. She also made a point of letting me know that people "with my type of issue" don't seek help so it caught her totally off guard when I agreed to it. There were warning signs all over the relationship from the very beginning but I ignored those, each time being drawn back in and each time being made to feel it was my fault somehow.

I managed to convince my ex-wife of going to therapy together but she got in there first and started individual appointments with a very sympathetic therapist. So when it came time for the joint sessions, I felt like I was being beaten from both sides at first. However, I stuck with it and needless to say, my ex-wife could not hide her illness in the sessions. The therapist concluded that he wanted to see me individually which was a confirmation to my wife that there was nothing wrong with her and all the issues were mine.

The therapist on the other hand saw things very differently and the reason for seeing me was that it was much easier to work with me since I wasn't in denial about anything. It's what I now know as being the dance. The issues in our relationship was that due to my ex-wifes type, she would not take responsibility for anything and me on the other hand, took responsibility for everything. It's far easier to convince someone that not all the responsibility is theirs, rather than convince a BPD partner that they actually are responsible for some of the issues.

The stronger I got, the angrier she became and the more she tried to exert that control back. She would call the therapist and hurl abuse at him, try and convince me that he was on "her side" and so forth. On the other hand, I learned that my personality is that of a fixer/rescuer and still in therapy now trying to get to the core of my issues and resolve those, learning to build better boundaries and not be drawn back in to the world of a BPD. For the longest time, my wife had me convinced I was the one with BPD and she was trying to rescue me and I will be honest in saying she almost had me convinced. Had it not been for a very observant therapist, I may very well have gone down that path because I will be honest and say that the effect mirroring had on both of us, it was very hard to distinguish between was was reality and what was imaginary.

My ex-wife may never get help because she hides behind a narcissistic mask and surrounds herself with people who tell her how great she is and that all her issues are because of others. It is very defeating because I do love her so much and I desperately wanted things to work out between us. A month ago she decided that we should get divorced, not because of the issues in our relationship but because we love each other so much and what a great "joint decision" it would be. That would give me time to fix my issues and who knows? Liz Taylor and Richard Burton remarried several times. I was to be completely open and keep her informed of everything I was doing and if I did a good job of that, she might share with me what she is doing.

2 weeks ago, completely out of the blue, she started an argument after I had gone to bed over something random and how I never think about her needs. The end result, in a fit of anger she decided to sign the divorce papers the following morning and move out the day after. Reluctantly I agreed to do this but also explained that I didn't agree it was the right decision and that she would have to take responsibility for the consequences. We signed the papers 2 weeks ago and the following day I moved out. It was the most painful decision in my life and I'm still emotionally raw. As difficult as it has been, it has only been 1 week of no contact. There were e-mails at the start to remind me of my own faults but I ignored those, e-mails asking specific questions about my belongings etc... . I answered in a very neutral fashion which has angered her more because I'm not sharing.

She is feeling angry right now at being abandoned and as such has told everybody that I walked out on her without any warning. I am the villain in so many eyes right now but I did exactly what was asked of me, when it was asked. In whole, I put an end to the dance. It has been heartbreaking but as DarkCurls rightly pointed out, my presence and being there gave her the outlet she needed so I had my part to play in what went on and I have my own responsibilities as a result of this. Because of who I am, the only thing I wanted to do was help her and this created the dance so I have my responsibilities in all of this too.

[eniale]

You won't move on until you realize that the person you thought she was is not the person she is.  It was only your perception of her.  No doubt, she has shown you who she really is.  Remember that.  Stop obsessing over the good times.  You need to remember how she hurt you.  I am not saying people with BPD are bad, they have a personality disorder, but they can wreck your life.  Sounds like she does not want to let go, which is making it harder for you.  I know it sounds harsh, but NC is really the best.  Yesterday I came across a Valentine's Day card he sent me last year.  He did not simply sign it "Love", he signed it "I Love You!"  Instead of making me sad, I thought that this year (we broke up Feb. 7th) he probably wrote the same sentiment on a card to his new girlfriend, and probably next year it will be to another woman.  Then I realized the sentiment he wrote on the card was not worth the price of the paper he wrote it on -- it means nothing -- although, and here is the hard part -- I truly believe he meant it when he said it.  When we broke up & I reminded him he said he wanted us to belong to each other & spend the rest of our lives together, he said "I meant it when I said it."  I really think for once he was being honest.  Then he said "Things changed, I thought what we had was enough, she (new woman) bowled me over."  (So you see, it was her fault, not his, or "the devil made me do it."  But no 1 person will ever be ENOUGH for him.  People like this lack a central core of truth; truth is a variable with them, what is true today is not true tomorrow.  And despite their outrageous duplicity, they do not want to be "abandoned" & that is why she keeps contacting you.  I hope you are able to free yourself from the spider's web she has spun.  You deserve better than this!

[Conundrum]

To crucify yourself for falling in love and subsequently developing goal oriented relationship expectations is a fruitless endeavor--it's the natural course of events.

But upon learning that the object of your affection is a pwBPD, those reasonable expectations in all good conscience should eventually be subsumed by questioning; what is the reasonably foreseeable outcome?

So many pwBPD when they were little children suffered nightmarish incidents of abandonment and sexual abuse. Those are the empirical facts. That evidential horror show remains admissible throughout the course of their lives. They are of this world, and not of this world at the same time.

As non's we prefer to avoid considering reasonably foreseeable outcomes, because it implies that our relationship with a pwBPD is unsustainable over the long-run. Like a dog chasing its tail, we spin in circles, throwing pennies into a wishing well, holding onto wishes that will never come true. Most pwBPD will never be able to conform to, or meet a non's reasonable expectations for a romantic relationship--it's probability. Becoming obsessed by the dream that you can beat the odds is the KISA death. You have to live life, not let it destroy you.

Consequently, there are worse things in this world than admitting your own limitations and accepting the limitations of your loved one w/ BPD. We're all finite beings (at least materially) and some relationships are more finite than others. None of this is to imply that a non and a pwBPD cannot share an extraordinary connection, or a deep bond. It simply means that accepting what is reasonably foreseeable without rancor, shame and hate--will alleviate much personal misery as you move forward on your journey in life.   

       

[TonyK]

Excellent post, Eniale!

Thank you very much.

[eniale]

For Scott 72 --

You say it hurts when you hear that many BPD exes return.  I know it hurts when you have really loved someone, but a break up with a BPD person is a GIFT.  I was devastated, traumatized, when my ex told me he had met someone else.  The pain was the worst I have ever experienced.  BUT 3 months later, I see it differently.  It was all wrong from the start.  I put up with WAY too much.  He is a bottomless pit and nothing will ever be ENOUGH for him.  He did me a favor by showing me who he really is.  The man I fell in love with was only my PERCEPTION of him.  The anger is lessening.  I don't think he is a bad person, but a very, very, very damaged person.  He knows right from wrong, but so does a person who is starving and sees a loaf of bread.  People with BPD are not STABLE.  Do you really want to go him, though I will NEVER forget the tremendous pain he caused.  But want him back?  That would only bring MORE heartache.  Be careful what you pray for.  Have you seen a therapist?  Mine really helped me.  I am slowly recovering... .  NC for over 3 months.  Do I still think maybe it's him when the phone rings?  Yes.  And memories of the love I had for him will always be painful.  I accept that.  We were together for over a year so I figure it will take that amount of time to fully recover.  But I am sane enough to know he is not right for me.  He even has some self-awareness.  He said " You deserve a STABLE guy."  To that, I say "Amen!"

[Clearmind]

The man I fell in love with was only my PERCEPTION of him. 

Best thing I have read today! You are absolutely right – we detach when we work towards changing the perception we have of our partners.

[eniale]

For Scott 72 --

You state that what hinders your attempts to move on is that you've heard many pwBPD return and you would "love that."  I believe you need to stop thinking of all the "wonderful words we cling to" and start thinking about all the pain your ex caused you.  This is NOT "being negative"; it is facing reality and not hanging on to the fantasy of the life you could have together.  You can't have that with a person who has a personality disorder.  You will never move on if you don't face reality.  I am 3 mos. post B/U and making progress.  I can even feel compassion & the beginning of forgiveness BUT know my ex is a very, very damaged person who broke my heart.  Very doubtful, even if he agreed to therapy, that he is capable of changing.  THAT is reality.  When phone rings do I still wish it was him?  Yes, sometimes I do, but it is getting better.  Definitely know I DO NOT WANT MORE PAIN.  I view him differently now:  Again, have compassion, but know the hurt he is capable of causing & I have had enough.  That is the road to sanity/reality for myself.  You have to concentrate on yourself.  You can never change another person.  I loved my ex, but now realize I was just another meal on his food chain.  His illness makes him incapable of thinking of others as his needs are so great.  He is a bottomless pit.  If you keep obsessing over her, you will never start to heal.  Good luck. 

[Murbay]

Eniale is completely right but it doesn't make things any easier, in many ways it does make it harder.

I know in my case it's because I see through the illness and see a very vulnerable and pained person who was desperate to be loved and that I knew none of it was her fault. She didn't create the personality disorder and she shouldn't be punished because of it. It's that kind of thinking that keeps us attached and feeling unresolved in ourselves.

My Therapist has been trying to get me to see, feel and understand the emotional pain I was in at the end of the relationship, to recognise and accept those feelings as should I go back, the same patterns would occur. It doesn't allow us to create the healthy boundaries we need for a healthy relationship as we would sacrifice those just to feel that wonderful feeling again. The thing he has been trying to get me to see is that in a healthy relationship, those feelings are always there and not just sporadic.

The difficulty I have right now is that I still love my ex very deeply and in all honesty I would love nothing more than a healthy relationship with her. The reality is that won't ever happen because she is in denial about her illness and even if she was to accept it, it would take years of hard work and dedication to get her on the right path, and that would only be if she stuck to it.

What you have to do is detatch from the person, separate their illness from who they are inside. Accept and be thankful for the times you had, learn from them but also understand that a healthy relationship with that person is not a possibility. You will eventually find someone who will appreciate those feelings and reciprocate.

I am very much like you Scott, if my ex came back into my life tomorrow I would love nothing more than another chance. But I also have to be realistic and know the hurt I'm feeling right now, I would continue to feel and therefore it isn't healthy to me and also damaging to them.

[Scott72]

Eniale- thank you! Of course everything you say is correct- its just hard making ones heart listen! My therapist is great- and specialises in BPD, so a god send!

Murbay- it's terrible to want someone who you can't have! Not just cause they don't want it but because they can't be that person. I'm sure we will get there!