Even though they mirror - are they ever thankful?

[cal644]

Here's a question I have - I know that my stbex mirrored me her whole life now.  She mirrored a person who showed her love, values, faith, family, and morals - now the hate that comes from her as I am this evil monster - I know it's just projection and a defensive mechanisim so she doesn't have to look at her actions for causing the divorce- but will there ever become a time in her life that she will look back, realize what she threw away, realize all the love that was given to her and positive values that were shown to her and say thank you?  As bad as things are now - I'm not counting on it - but I do wonder if she will ever say thank you for everything you have done and I'm sorry (even if its just within herself)?  I think that is what I struggle with the most still - how could you throw away everything good in your life - not come running back (even when I threw white flags) - and say I'm sorry, I screwed up, please take me back. 

[recoil]

I was thinking about this earlier today.

Last night, I had a talk with my daughter.  She did some questionable things and it was brought to the attention of her principal at school.  I sat down with her last night to talk about her actions and why they were not appropriate.  She looked at me and said, ":)addy, I'm sorry.  I won't do that again."  I could tell she was being very sincere.  She meandered over to me and gave me a hug.

My daughter is six and knows how to own responsibility and admit her mistakes.  Wow.  My 34 year old ex could not do this.

If your ex is like mine, the following may never happen:

... . and say I'm sorry, I screwed up, please take me back.

Mine still attempts contact with me (we work together).  She has reached out with various "pokes" over the past four months but has never said, "I might have made a mistake asking for a break."  If she had, earlier, I would have gone back - no question.  Now?  No.  I am never going back.  I'm further out of the FOG and while I would still love to help, I know it's futile and no longer wish to subject me or my daughter to that environment.

Peace be with her -- but I won't.

My question to you:  During the time you were together, did she ever admit fault?  Could she take responsibility for mistakes she made?  The best gauge of the future is the past.

[tailspin]

cal 

Yes, your ex does feel all emotions including thankfulness, remorse, guilt, regret, etc.  However those suffering from BPD cannot sustain any emotion for any measurable amount of time and this leads to their unstable nature. 

When the mirroring stops you are seeing who they truly are.  Often these people become unrecognizable to us because we have only seen the person they want us to see; and often we only saw what we wanted to see as well.  Denial works both ways.

I wouldn't expect your ex to thank you for everything you've done and to apologize.  To do so would cause her to split herself black and the emotional terror associated with doing so would result in unimaginable anxiety and pain.  The heart of this illness resides in our ex's inability to face their own truth.  When someone cannot do this for themselves they cannot possibly do this for you.

You must find your own truth. 

She may say I'm sorry, I screwed up, please take me back.  But make no mistake; this isn't for your edification.  You cannot save her from herself and empty words that don't match actions are meaningless.  I know it hurts right now but I hope you find some comfort in knowing you are not alone.

tailspin

[Winifred]

cal 

Yes, your ex does feel all emotions including thankfulness, remorse, guilt, regret, etc.  However those suffering from BPD cannot sustain any emotion for any measurable amount of time and this leads to their unstable nature. 

When the mirroring stops you are seeing who they truly are.  Often these people become unrecognizable to us because we have only seen the person they want us to see; and often we only saw what we wanted to see as well.  Denial works both ways.

I wouldn't expect your ex to thank you for everything you've done and to apologize.  To do so would cause her to split herself black and the emotional terror associated with doing so would result in unimaginable anxiety and pain.  The heart of this illness resides in our ex's inability to face their own truth.  When someone cannot do this for themselves they cannot possibly do this for you.

You must find your own truth. 

She may say I'm sorry, I screwed up, please take me back.  But make no mistake; this isn't for your edification.  You cannot save her from herself and empty words that don't match actions are meaningless.  I know it hurts right now but I hope you find some comfort in knowing you are not alone.

tailspin

Very insightful comments about mirroring: "When the mirroring stops, you see who they truly are." In our daughter's case, I think we have seen that she is truly someone without a core personality. We've seen glimpses of intelligence, humor, and possibly insight, but these characteristics do not seem integrated. Looking back, she may have been mirroring since she was a toddler. Our therapist thinks that the root cause of the BPS was surgical trauma in her first year. She was born with club feet, and from day three she was in casts for the feet and a rigid girdle to correct hip dysplasia. Surgeries at 8 and 10 months, plus cast changes and painful manipulation of her growing feet may have fed abandonment fears. Whatever the cause, she mirrored her older brother (a good influence), then her toxic cousins (terrible influence), and then whomever came along. When she's with us, she settles into family conversations about work, pets, art, books, TV, and humor. Our son says that when she entered the doors of their high school, she turned into a completely different person. No there there. That's the hardest part.

[TheDude]

I think this is one of those questions that has no 'across the board' answer. Even if you remove the 'PD' component, most of the mainstream heartbroken ponder this same question (or a variation of it). It's really not a "criteria", as it were. And as already mentioned, short of something truly extreme like paranoid schizophrenia, most everyone has the capacity for things like gratitude and remorse. Our exes aren't a different species or aliens, they're human beings. That you don't receive such acknowledgements doesn't mean the realizations don't exist. Maybe a better question would be whether receiving such appreciation is of any long term benefit.

Case in point - My ex has been very remorseful and apologetic upon returning for each of the several recycles we've been through. I have no reason to suspect that this wasn't genuine at the given times. She has also acknowledged all I've done for her and how I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread... . as she's ejecting me from my own life. And here I am. Point being, hearing all that ultimately provides nothing to me personally aside from frustration and confusion. Just a variation on, "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me". More like, "I love you, now go away".

I think that is what I struggle with the most still - how could you throw away everything good in your life - not come running back (even when I threw white flags) - and say I'm sorry, I screwed up, please take me back.

This is actually quite the paradox. On the one hand, if you've never been through the whole recycling thing, this would seem like such an ideal resolution to the pain, wouldn't it? The great epiphany. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Cal, let's suppose your ex does offer up all these things you'd like to hear. Then what? What happens when the lucid moment fades? Would it be worth the risk of going through all this pain again from scratch? I can assure you, it's not any easier the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time. It may not feel this way now, but consider yourself fortunate if she never pontificates these things you want to hear, at least not without very extensive and successful therapy.

[cal644]

Thanks (the Dude) - I don't know if I could ever go through this again - and I think from now on it would always be in the back of my mind "how long will it be until she does this again".  I know it's best to cut my losses - and be thankful that I won't ever have to worry about her doing that again (at least not to me).

[leftbehind]

Cal644, I wonder the exact same thing.  But I think TheDude is right:

What happens when the lucid moment fades? Would it be worth the risk of going through all this pain again from scratch? I can assure you, it's not any easier the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time.

I wish my ex would reach out and at least acknowledge that our time together meant something, and how much I helped him (because I did).  But that is asking him not to have this disorder.  It's also asking him to acknowledge that he may have made a mistake, something that I'm sure he won't do as long as he's in survival mode.  And from what I understand, BPD people are always in survival mode.

[wanttoknowmore]

Every pwBPD is somewhat different than the other.

Mine displayed rage, push pull behavior, broke up suddenly and even threatened to get R/O ... . BUT in the end she did text me "thank you for everything... . I know I won't  find a loving and caring person like you... . but... . I have to move on." " I will not forget you Some days I will miss you badly".

She tried to show gratitude although it was hard for her... . she did try hard to be civil. Did ST and  raged saying go away.leave me alone... . but didnot curse, insult or demean me.

Also, severity of BPD varies in different pwBPDs too.

[confetti]

just like wantedtoknowmore, my ex said something similar multiple times to me. he would thank me for teaching him "how to love" right before we would go to sleep (this was not sexual) ~ this was also not in a position to lasso... . he was genuinely thankful, but toward the end simply failed to remember what he felt like at the time. he has no idea what he felt toward me back then most likely but he's shown that he is capable of sincere feelings for those who taught him things just not very often.

every pwBPD is different; mine tried to leave dramatically and romantically each recycle until he knew i would cut him off for good. then he was just plain mean.

[Mr Bean]

This is actually quite the paradox. On the one hand, if you've never been through the whole recycling thing, this would seem like such an ideal resolution to the pain, wouldn't it? The great epiphany. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Cal, let's suppose your ex does offer up all these things you'd like to hear. Then what? What happens when the lucid moment fades? Would it be worth the risk of going through all this pain again from scratch? I can assure you, it's not any easier the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th time. It may not feel this way now, but consider yourself fortunate if she never pontificates these things you want to hear, at least not without very extensive and successful therapy.

I would be scared. There is no way in hell i would give her a second chance. Once is enough for me

[really]

Cal,

I am with Tailspin on this one.

The complete lack of empathy at the end of our relationship has been the most difficult thing for me to understand.     I saw very fleeting glimpses of it during out time together - she was able to (very rarely) say "I acted badly" but she couldn't sustain that feeling.   

Some 16 months on, despite having a much better appreciation for who she is, and who she is not, it still shakes me at times because that behaviour is just so far removed from who I am that I still struggle to understand it. 

I was far without fault in my relationship but I am able to articulate what I did wrong and am capable of self reflection.    Sadly she was not and never will be.   

[bb12]

I'm with Tailspin on this one too

And like you Cal, the hardest thing for me was reconciling the dismissive behaviour at the end with the devotion at the start. I can still shake my head at that dissonance. And it is such as shame isn't it?: to throw all this good away... . and for what? To win? To wound? To spite?

The other hard thing to process is the speed of the change. How could a non-disordered think anything other than this is temporary?

But it's not. It's now 18 months since I was painted black and the silent treatment commenced... . and my ex has never, ever corresponded in any way, shape or form since.

So I go back to the reading: the lessons and articles on here. And this is a needs-based disorder. It is and was only ever about them. If they need you again, they will reminisce to themselves and perhaps feel something nearing regret (if not gratitude). But will they ever need us enough again, to make a phone call professing such feelings? No. For that takes courage, integrity, selflessness, character. And they don't have those things. And they very quickly got other basic needs met... . and we are a long, long time ago very quickly.

I think your question today really clarified something for me... . and crystalised that 'waiting' feeling I have been stuck in all this time. It really has been a lesson in tolerating a delayed gratification that never comes. I have been waiting for exactly what you have articulated... . a desire to be thanked, and a demonstration that they get how special we are. But it won't come. So choose not to wait.

BB12

[Validation78]

Hey All!

We all have healthy, normal expectations from those we have been involved with and love. What we want is quite reasonable, however, unlikely to get from pwBPD who operate in a manner we can only begin to understand. I don't think I'll ever understand it all!

Instead, we're better off to learn what we can about BPD, to assure ourselves that what we experienced was real, and beyond our control. After that, we are best served by focusing on ourselves.

Can we live our truth and be satisfied in knowing the truth, without expecting anything more from the pwBPD?

Can we move on to healthy relationships?

Can we use what we know about BPD to help others?

Can we forgive, ourselves and our pwBPD?

What can we do to get on a path to healing?

Best Wishes,

Val78

[tailspin]

"I have been waiting for exactly what you have articulated... . a desire to be thanked, and a demonstration that they get how special we are. But it won't come. So choose not to wait.

BB12"

BB12 and everyone here... .

You were his savior, his confidant, his rock, his safe harbor to weather the storm.  You were strong and comforting and he couldn't live without you until his disorder kicked in an literally made it impossible for him to stay.

We were all so very special to them.  But when we do something for someone, with the expectation we will be rewarded for our actions in the form of gratitude, we are setting ourselves up for failure.  Relying on others to validate our self worth doesn't work; we must recognize, acknowledge and reward the wonder we bring to each and every one of our relationships. 

I think this is what our ex's would say to us if they had the self-awareness to do so:

I loved you as best as I could.  You were the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me.  I'm so sorry I hurt you but the pain I felt from being with you was so strong and intense that I didn't have a choice; I had to get away from you.  I don't understand why this is happening to me and I regret what is wrong with me also hurt you.  I will be ok and I will get the help I need to figure this out.  I hope you have a wonderful life and I hope you find the love you so greatly deserve.

And even if you think this is a bunch of baloney... . at least admit you deserved better.

tailspin

[leftbehind]

the hardest thing for me was reconciling the dismissive behaviour at the end with the devotion at the start. I can still shake my head at that dissonance. And it is such as shame isn't it?: to throw all this good away... . and for what? To win? To wound? To spite?

The other hard thing to process is the speed of the change. How could a non-disordered think anything other than this is temporary?

This sums it up perfectly.  And I've been waiting for that email or call.  Not the one that says, "I made a mistake, and I want you back", but the one that says, "I'm sorry I was hurtful at the end of our relationship.  You were an important person in my life, you were good to me and helped me, and I'll always think back on our times with fondness.  I'm here for you if you ever need me."

But this will never happen.  So me waiting for it disempowers me.  Leaves me longing for what will never come.  I know I need to stop waiting for the validation that our relationship actually meant something and was important, but I'm not there yet. 

This experience has changed my whole view on relationships.  I always thought that there could be that true love experience.  I am extremely monogamous, very loyal, and even lose the desire to look at another man when I'm with someone I care about.  But after this experience I'm in a weird place where I keep thinking it might just be better for me to have a bunch of male friends. (sexual, non-sexual, romantic - I don't know).  I'm tired of giving my heart over and over and having it end.  So far I haven't done anything about this.  I don't want to be too reactive post breakup.  But I need to move on on the one hand, and I know I'm not ready for another relationship on the other.  Now instead of thinking of true love, and when it may come again, I'm thinking about relationships in terms of pain management.  And I hate that this experience has led me to that.

[Mr Bean]

My ex said sorry so many times when i told her she really hurted me. But the question is did she really mean it? No! In fact she got over me in one day. Found my replacement first and told me she is dating this guy. She did say "i hope we could be friends blah blah blah". Being so manipulative and liars i dont think she wanted to be real friends either. Probably just a back up in case there is something wrong with the new guy.

My point is even if this person with BPD apologize, regrets their actions, would you believe with what they say?

[leftbehind]

My point is even if this person with BPD apologize, regrets their actions, would you believe with what they say?

good point, Mr. Bean!

[Faded]

I think that with a BPD, when you engage with them then you they will mirror what ever actions or words are wanting to be mirrored.


Engage in an argument with a BPD and chances are they will argue your a$$ right into your own grave.

Same goes for apologies or thanks.

If you initiate apologies to a BPD then they try and be even more apologetic than you are trying to be.

If you are initiating thanks then im sure they will again try and be the most apologetic people on earth.



Sincereity? Well, thats another thing but im sure they would mirror any circumstance to try and better their own image given the opputunity.