Unable to accept radically.

[Wishful thinking]

This radical acceptance thing is just a tad bit too hard for me to do, to decide etc

I am meant to choose a lonely life. With no expectations from my BPDh.

Why is this so difficult? Does it mean I dont love him enough?

Im not talking to my h at the moment. I am so angry. Hurt. Disappointed.

Reading all the posts doesnt give me much hope.

Did radical acceptance change your life for the better?

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[Chosen]

Hi Wishful thinking,

I understand that feeling of disappointment, of hopelessness even.  I feel it from time to time.  And I find radical acceptance hard too, but I’m learning.

My view of radical acceptance is like the serenity prayer:

Serenity: to accept the things I cannot change,

Courage: to change the things I can,

Wisdom: to know the difference.

There are some things that can be changed, or to a certain degree.  Most likely that is due to first changing something within ourselves, perhaps the way we communicate it.

Then there are some things that will not change (e.g. the way they view things in black and white for example), due to the nature of the disorder.

What radical acceptance is, I think, is that wisdom to know the difference, so we get a sense of what the reality is, and we don’t direct our efforts forever hoping something will change, or always being disillusioned.

We accept that, in a way, life will never be perfect and this is reality for us.  In a way, each and every one of us will have to learn radical acceptance in life (whether BPD is in our lives or not), but us with pwBPDs will have to learn it more quickly I suppose.

[Rockylove]

What radical acceptance is, I think, is that wisdom to know the difference, so we get a sense of what the reality is, and we don’t direct our efforts forever hoping something will change, or always being disillusioned.

I think Chosen has said this very nicely.  For me, radical acceptance is the knowledge of what is without expectation.  That doesn't mean that I have to like it but it means that I acknowledge something as it is without trying to control or manipulate it or hope that it's something it's not.   

I know how difficult it may seem to radically accept the garbage that comes with BPD and I'm not so enlightened to think that I'll not feel deflated from time to time, but I can find peace of mind and that can only come through me having a strong sense of self. 

[CodependentHusband]

Radical Acceptance indeed has changed my life for the better! It took a lot of pain to get here though, to be honest. I really didn't think I'd have any love left for my dBPDw when I made it through. That feeling... . not being sure of what I would feel if I tried to accept things that seemed so very unacceptable, was a scary feeling. My wife is untreated, so, there is no real relief for her on the horizon; however, I really feel good now, on the whole. Yes, there are still challenging days being in this marriage, but it is worth it to me.

Sorry you are having a hard time. Hope things start getting better for you soon.

[musicfan42]

It doesn't mean that you don't love him enough-it's just that you have a particular idea of how your life should be with your husband and are angry that it's not like that.

Radical acceptance is about accepting reality-you don't have to like it or approve it but you do have to surrender at some point and say "this is what I'm dealing with" and then decide how you want to handle it... . look at the options open to you. Acceptance doesn't mean passivity or giving up. You have to accept a problem before you can solve it or before you can begin to address it in any way whatsoever because otherwise you just have thoughts like "this is not fair" or "what if things were different" etc.

I don't think acceptance on its own is enough though. I think that it really should be acceptance+ willingness-accepting the things you can't control AND willingness to change the things you can. I also agree with the other poster who mentioned the Serenity Prayer.

Marsha Linehan says that acceptance and willingness is like being dealt a bad hand in a card game but still choosing to play. So in life, yes it may seem like you've been dealt a bad hand but you can still choose to participate in life and make the most of your life. You can "turn lemons into lemonade" which is also another DBT metaphor. Willingness is really recognising that something needs to be done and doing it whether you want to or not whereas willfulness is sitting on your hands, not addressing the situation. You can still have "a life worth living" (another DBT term) even though you have emotional pain. Everyone experiences pain in life but when you resist it, it becomes suffering.

I would take issue to the part where you say "I am meant to choose a lonely life"-you don't have to choose anything... . you have a choice. Do you have female friends? You can get some of your emotional needs met in good friendships, from other family members-your husband doesn't have to be the sole source of your happiness (and actually shouldn't be the source of your happiness... . you have to make yourself happy at the end of the day-no one else can do it for you). I also think that having your own interests in life is good, whether that's career, hobbies etc. I would also point out that you have a choice whether to stay in the marriage or not. You have choices-you don't have to be forced to choose anything.

I also think it's incorrect to say "have no expectations of my BPDh"-you can set boundaries with him. Seriously, put the focus on you in this scenario! Forget about him for the time being (sorry if that's harsh but honestly, it's not a bad thing to be "selfish"-codependents should really be a little bit more "selfish" and prioritise their own needs instead of putting others first all the time).

Yes-radical acceptance helped my life. It helped me stop reacting to other people's bad behaviour and to look at my own stuff... . to look at how I was contributing to the problem. It helped me be a calmer person, less angry and resentful towards the person because I was more accepting of reality. I got along with them because I wasn't trying to fix them, wasn't nagging-I'm not saying I got on with them extremely well, don't get me wrong, as the person is still a high-conflict personality however there weren't the screaming arguments that there was before and that was a relief. A lot of my emotional energy had been taken up with arguing with him and that was just a complete waste of my time. I also feel like by not reacting, the other person cannot manipulate me anymore-they can't push any buttons because I just don't react! It's very satisfying to see someone trying to push your buttons and for them not to succeed-you definitely get the last laugh with that kind of the thing. Usually, when they fail to get a reaction, they stop. Whereas if they get a reaction, it becomes very tit for tat and it just goes on and on for ages. It also gave me the opportunity to focus on myself more without thinking that I was "selfish" so I feel like I'm a better, strong person for it really.

I agree with you though that acceptance is very challenging-that it's painful but I found that after the pain, I was a lot stronger for it. Maybe not as carefree or naive (those days have gone unfortunately) but more aware-I listen to my gut instinct more. Before, I would have tried to give people the benefit of the doubt whereas now, if I don't like someone, then I just don't-I trust my intuition now.

I also read somewhere that being powerless over someone else's behaviour means that they are responsible for their own behaviour and I really liked that.

[toomanyeggshells]

musicfan42, It think you provided a really good response  .  I'm struggling with the same issues (who here isn't) and for me its very difficult to radically accept.  I tell myself that he is the way he is and he's not going to change.  I'm definitely working on how I react to him (or don't react as the case may be) and its helped me immensely. 

[allibaba]

musicfan 42... . I also really like your response.

The irony that I am noticing is that when I start to let go of trying to control my BPD in my life then the relationship improves. 

And ironically I have appropriate expectations (instead of wishing for something unattainable) of my BPD in my life... . and strangely things become less lonely... . because I am not relying on him for 100% of the companionship and when he goes off in a huff (whether I did something wrong or not) I don't feel so let down or abandoned. 

Its as if I was leaning on my uBPDh as a crutch to make me feel balanced... .

and then when that crutch collapsed under my weight... . I felt devasted and let down... .

but really I should have been depending on my own two feet to keep me level in the first place... .

because that dependence on the crutch was really a lot of weight (stress/ anxiety) for him.

[musicfan42]

Thanks. I think another important thing to point out is that sometimes it's easy to accept and at other times, it's just so hard. So if you're struggling right now, the best thing you could do for yourself is just to tell yourself that it's okay-that everyone has bad times and struggles with negative emotions. Maybe do something nice for yourself-even if it's just something as simple as making a cup of tea. Life is definitely challenging-everyone has their ups and downs. Also, seek support here... . other people have been through similar situations so they know how it feels.

I've been working really hard on DBT skills because I felt like my self-esteem was eroded by the BPD person. I learned a LOT on acceptance from DBT-I had to work on it because it is an area I struggle with. I feel better since working on it but it's definitely an ongoing thing and no, it's not easy but I'm making progress and that's what I want at the end of the day. I know that DBT was created for borderlines however it contains really good skills that anyone can use.

Here is a DBT Skills handbook: www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf

It contains all the DBT skills. There's also information on the workshops section on this website about DBT too.  There are some great threads in the workshops section so if you feel bad, please check some of them out-they've really helped me.

[Wishful thinking]

Thank you all for your responses.

Musicfan you are right.

I am in a negative space at the moment. For starters, like you mention

'My self esteem has been eroded by a BPD person... . '  I guess i have alot of resentment etc towards him. And thats something i still need to work through

I was fully independant until I got married and moved to a new country. Life here has been tough work wise, adjusting to life here and to being newly married.  Its not until recently that Ive come to realize that its all those namecalling, lack of almost everything, that has led me to this point. Ive started to slowly grow dependant on him as well. He became my best friend (he was in the idealizing phase) and i fell for it.

I will be seeing a therapist soon. Hopefully she will assist me to get over this hurdle.

Once again. Thank you for your posts.

[Jeansok]

I can COMPLETELY relate Wishful Thinking. My husband has recently agreed to get help, and I have my doubts, because he seems to think we will only need to see this therapist for a few times- unfortunately but am hopefuly and prayful. He hasn't been officially diagnosed, though it's completely eye opening for me these stories I see on here are my life in action. I don't know what to do. We will see how this pans out... . I'm hoping for a success story but like so many others on here after what I've read, I don't know if I have the strength though I love him so... .

I go through exactly this, last week I couldn't stand how he was acting then he snapped out of and we had a great day yesterday. I just don't know what to expect from day to day and musicfan42 you said it well with the expectations of what I feel like life should be for us. I want to be able to do "normal" things with friends and family and not worry about what kind of mood my H is going to be in. I can't plan anything and constantly letting friends down that invite us to do things because of my H and how he feels... .

[Wishful thinking]

Hello Jeansok

It not a nice thing to go thru and this is the reality

Like you say. You would just like to do the normal things with your husband... .

At this stage radical acceptance for me, means that the mundane and normal things others might take for granted, has become some kind of fantasy and wishful thinking. And this is the hurdle i need to cross over. Maybe the quicker I accept things the quicker things will change for me. Right now Im fluctuating between denial and mourning my losses.

Im also being very prayerful in all of this. As a christian, divorce on its own is a difficult thing to Think of. And what makes it worse, is like you Jeansok, I dont hate him. When hes okay, hes a loving man. Patient. Kind. Quiet. And hes always there. And then there are the rolling coasters of emotions... .

[Chosen]

Wishful thinking,

"Marriage does not exist to make you happy.  It exists to make you holy."  I remember having read it somewhere, and as a Christian too, it has been a good reminder for me when I feel disappointed.  I never had the fantasy that marriage would be compeltely easy and not require any work, but yes, sometimes it feels like a chore to me and I wonder how come marriage takes so much hard work and offer so little feelings of self-actualisation in return?

In a way it is sad to know that many of the things people do with their H I can't do with mine (like have completely open discussions about things and knowing that he will accept my point of view), and I do grieve this "loss", although I try not to think of it in this way- it's just different than other people's marriages. 

[Jeansok]

I can relate so much with both of you Chosen and Wishful Thinking being a follower of christ myself makes this all a confusing battle. Afterall if God brings me through it hell get me thru it right?... . whichever that may be. Its hard for me to come to grips with it all and like you said accepting my reality. Is it selfish to want a "normal" life... . I just dont know. Just have to pray and stay faithful wherever that may lead me. Its nice to be able to relate with you bith on this lecel. Maybe we can help eachother out! Things are going ok for now but I cant help but be reserved and like you I cant be open about just anything and I really hate that. Its hard... . praying for the strength to continue.

[Jeansok]

... . and I don't see divorce as an option. We've both been down that road before. I just pray hell listen to the psychologist and continue to strive. He says he wants our family to work and this is a hufe step for him. So I am hopeful too... .

[Jeansok]

Sorry for typos working off my phone... . I meant nice to be able to relate to u both on this level with a christian perspective

[KellyO]

Yes, it changed my life. It made me accept my ex-bf is severely ill person and I don't want to have nothing to do with him. That is acceptance too. Accepting does not mean accepting their behaviour and making yourself believe there is nothing wrong. You have to accept the reality, just like it is now, without making any wishful thinking and without any denial. Then, you decide if you can stay, and keep accepting and still live your life and be ok with that, knowing they will never change, or if you accept that you can't be without relationship that is mutual, and then you leave and go on with your life and make sure your next relationship is healthy. Accepting does not mean taking whatever disordered person throws at you and smile, it means you accept they are what they are and walk away if needed to protect yourself. It means not taking it personally. It is very hard life.

Don't think you don't love enough. I think you don't love yourself enough! Accepting does not mean you have to be someones doormat. It is accepting other person how he is, and living with it without loosing yourself. Few people can do that. I think most who accept, finally accept that they want and need and deserve better.

[Chosen]

I have read somewhere that "If you partner has a terminal disease/ is paralysed from an accident, you would not want to leave them, so why is BPD different?"  Of course, it's different because pwBPDs lash out at us, hurt us and in many ways are not able to sustain a "normal" relationship.  But there is some truth in the question too.

BPD is an illness; the pwBPDs don't want that, and they are suffering too.  Just like a person who is paralysed and cannot do daily tasks on their own, pwBPDs cannot relate to us in certain ways.  We could convince them of treatment, have them wear prosthetic arms/ legs/ whatever, but in the end they will still not be completely "normal".  And we have to decide whether to live with it or not. 

I agree with KellyO that some of us may come to the conclusion not to live this life anymore, and it's not up to anybody to judge.  For me, I hope I can hang on and persevere through the tough times.  It is say "life can be s*** sometimes, but that's life."  I suppose it helps when we don't only think of all the bad things we have to put up with.  I'm sure there are good times as well.

[musicfan42]

I like your post KellyO-I had to go No Contact too for my own emotional well being... . it's just so much easier when they're not around anymore!

BPD isn't a disease or an illness-it's a personality disorder. It is Axis II in the DSM for a reason. A personality disorder is when someone has very fixed and/or entrenched personality traits that make it hard for them to get along with others. I don't think it's the same as being paralysed either-I just don't think that's a fair comparison. I think we need to call a spade a spade and not try to put some kind of euphemism on it to make the borderline feel better. I really hate the term "disease" being used for addiction too-I just think a disease is a physical ailment like diabetes. Disease should just not be used in mental health issues.

[KellyO]

My ex could perfectly choose how he react and what was his behaviour. He did not shout, yell and have temper tantrums at work or with friends, neither did he try to belittle his boss. Instead he chose to please them and be a real sunshine. You do not choose to be paralyzed or not. We all know, every single person in this world, that it is not acceptable to hurt other people, use them or abuse them. Disordered people bend the world in their minds so, that it is acceptable because we, the closest to them, are bad people and we do not deserve any better. My ex was adamant that resisting his abuse was abusive, and so I deserved being abused even more!

I have radically accepted that I can not change him, and I have accepted that I deserve better. He will not give me what I deserve, because he thinks giving me anything is loosing the game. This is about accepting yourself too.

Disease is right word in many mental health issues too, like bipolar and scitzophrenia. Those people are always dependent on medical care to be able to cope at least somehow. Disordered people do not benefit from medical care much, and they can change how they see this world and other people. Unfortunetally, they have to hit rock bottom to realize the problem is in the mirror, not in the world around them.

[Chosen]

BPD isn't a disease or an illness-it's a personality disorder. It is Axis II in the DSM for a reason. A personality disorder is when someone has very fixed and/or entrenched personality traits that make it hard for them to get along with others. I don't think it's the same as being paralysed either-I just don't think that's a fair comparison. I think we need to call a spade a spade and not try to put some kind of euphemism on it to make the borderline feel better. I really hate the term "disease" being used for addiction too-I just think a disease is a physical ailment like diabetes. Disease should just not be used in mental health issues.

I know what you mean, musicfan42, that they are not the same.  And I don’t think people who suggested this (it wasn't me, I read it somewhere) are not trying to make the pwBPD feel better- they're simply trying to provide another point of view for the non when they consider whether they will stay or not.  Whether we call it a mental disorder or mental illness, for myself at least, isn't the main point, and sometimes “illness” or “no illness, just traits” is a fine line.  

I do think that sometimes we forget that they don't want this.  If they knew they have this problem (which many of them don’t because they have certain personality traits which block them from knowing) and they were given a choice whether to have it or not, they would choose not to.  :)oesn’t make what they act on any less hurtful, but I think there’s a difference between being borderline and being a jerk/ conscious abuser.

For me the comparison makes sense in some ways when I consider my own responses.  For example, if H was ill and he was in bed and didn’t want to do stuff, then I would think it’s ok because, “well, he’s ill.  It’s a legitimate reason.”  But sometimes when he doesn’t do stuff because he thinks I take him for granted so he will stop doing whatever (to “punish me”), I will think, “He shouldn’t do that.  I didn’t take him for granted and just because he has that feeling doesn’t mean it’s true and I don’t deserve to be punished.”  However, perhaps (and I’m not saying it’s a certainty) it’s because he has BPD and in his mind, feelings = facts, therefore “if I feel you take me for granted, then it means I won’t be appreciated when I do hit, so I will not do it.”  I may not accept this thought, and it may not be “normal”, but that’s the way he thinks, and it’s up to me how to respond to him- whether to internally validate his feelings (even though I don’t agree) or just to look at his actions.  If I had just looked at his actions I probably would have left ages ago, no radical acceptance needed.

[KellyO]

I want to give an example of how I see radical acceptance IF you want to stay in relationship.

We all have motivations behind our actions, always. You think what might be your motivation in staying, and you find out one of them is that you want to be loved. This far you have tried to get love in this relationship by demanding it, or by loving your partner to bits and trying to make him happy in hope some day he/she would give you love back, and make you feel loved. How has it worked? Not well, I guess. You are tired, bitter and feel worthless. You get manipulated and you find yourself in the middle of drama all the time.

You radically accept that love will not come to you by loving this person to bits. There is nothing you can do to make him/her to give you love. You accept it, stop demanding, stop biting the drama. You have accepted that you can't make this person do anything, no matter how you try to find a way to get through them. So you stay, learn to love yourself so much you don't need love from him/her, you walk out of drama, manipulation does not work for you anymore because you just don't care. You find other ways to get your needs filled.

And when you love yourself this much, you might realize you don't have to live like that IF  you don't want to. You are perfectly free to walk away or stay. Radical acceptance give you choises, where as being codependent takes all your choises away from you.

[Chosen]

Very well said, KellyO 

Yes, being able to radically accept frees us from the "victim" mindset and gives us choices.

[musicfan42]

I do think that sometimes we forget that they don't want this.  If they knew they have this problem (which many of them don’t because they have certain personality traits which block them from knowing) and they were given a choice whether to have it or not, they would choose not to.  :)oesn’t make what they act on any less hurtful, but I think there’s a difference between being borderline and being a jerk/ conscious abuser.

For me the comparison makes sense in some ways when I consider my own responses.  For example, if H was ill and he was in bed and didn’t want to do stuff, then I would think it’s ok because, “well, he’s ill.  It’s a legitimate reason.”  But sometimes when he doesn’t do stuff because he thinks I take him for granted so he will stop doing whatever (to “punish me”), I will think, “He shouldn’t do that.  I didn’t take him for granted and just because he has that feeling doesn’t mean it’s true and I don’t deserve to be punished.”  However, perhaps (and I’m not saying it’s a certainty) it’s because he has BPD and in his mind, feelings = facts, therefore “if I feel you take me for granted, then it means I won’t be appreciated when I do hit, so I will not do it.”  I may not accept this thought, and it may not be “normal”, but that’s the way he thinks, and it’s up to me how to respond to him- whether to internally validate his feelings (even though I don’t agree) or just to look at his actions.  If I had just looked at his actions I probably would have left ages ago, no radical acceptance needed.

I just don't think it's as simple as "oh they don't want it" and "if they could choose not to have it, then they would". There is no magic wand in life-you have to work hard at everything. There's no button that you can press that just makes all your problems go away. Everyone has problems... . baggage... . issues... . but it's up to each person to deal with it, not anyone else. I think that people have a choice in how they respond to situations-they don't need to act in an aggressive manner. I judge people by their actions, not by anything else because that's what it boils down to at the end of the day.

I had anger issues when I was younger so I can tell you that I meant every angry word that I said in an argument. I think that some people have this idea that "oh they didn't really mean what they said" but in my case anyways, I really did mean it. All my anger and resentment towards the other person had built up and I found relief in just letting it all hang... . in telling them exactly what I thought of them. I thought I would be fake or some kind of hypocrite if I acted in a calm manner when I was experiencing such feelings of anger and rage inwardly. I felt like the other person had provoked me by saying something mean so they deserved it. That was my logic/rationale really. I also knew that I was in the wrong deep down but I felt justified-I felt like I was fighting fire with fire, that I would be doormat for not standing up for myself etc. But I always knew deep down that my angry outbursts were wrong. I felt entitled to getting a LOT of attention from other people so the more people indulged me, the more entitled I felt. I felt that my emotions were more important than other peoples'... . that I was in such pain/distress... . that they were all fine... . having amazing lives whereas I was stuck and miserable. I really felt and acted like a victim much of the time.

Luckily for me, I've worked on my anger issues so I'm a much calmer person now but my experiences have actually made have a no tolerance policy for angry outbursts from anyone, including myself. I don't let myself off the hook anymore-I monitor my behaviour... . learned assertiveness skills etc but I only really changed because I knew that other people were no longer excusing my anger or trying to fix me. I was mollycoddled to a certain extent for a while but it was only when all that stopped that I really thought "I really have to get a handle on this". People had tried to change me and it failed every time. I had to reach a point of complete brokenness deep inside me to be able to really surrender and accept that I needed to change. It definitely is like AA says about alcoholics having to "hit bottom" before being able to recover-it is SO true and I think it would also apply to BPD.

[KellyO]

Musicfan42, I know exactly where you come from. You have been there, and you know what boils inside verbally abusive people. You know why they say and do what they do, because you once were one and there is no much use to come and tell you "they don't know what they do".

I red somewhere one recovering BPD-woman said that she could teach abusive mindset to anyone in a week. It is what it is, abusive mindset.

I do know what victim-mindset is too,  I know I was selfish, egocentric and lazy (because I had low-selfesteem and lots on anxiety and repressed anger). I wanted Prince Charming to give me a better life, instead of making my own life. I was gullible because it served my wishful thinking. I can't blame anyone else from that. No one could have fixed ME, I had to fix my own twisted mindset too. So, in these relationships there is often two people with twisted mindset. In the beginning there is one wanting a perfect partner, and disordered person feeding that need by mirroring. At some point tables turn around, and disordered person decides it is time to stop the act and show who is the boss here. Partner keeps trying to get the perfect (imagenary) relationship back.

At that point partner must come to reality and accept that this is how things are. And begin to do some inner work to figure out why they are with that person to begin with.

[waverider]

Radical Acceptance, does not happen overnight, it is a slow evolution. You cannot read about it and then just practice it. What it is, and means to you as an individual will develop hand in hand with use of other techniques as well. It is only one of the building blocks. Other aspects are required to balance it out and give it perspective.

It arises along side the use of boundaries, conflict minimization, and the general development of a better respect for each other.

Radical acceptance is also a two way thing, you also have to accept your own failings and inability to always "do the perfect response'. To accept you re doing your best but will still mess up, and thats ok. Dont raise your own bar too high.


Likewise you wont be able to achieve perfect Acceptance, but if only some of it falls into place then thats a good thing

[Jeansok]

kellyO... . my H definately seems to be able to control it around some people. At times when he's at his worst I could be dying on the side of the road and he wouldn't come to my rescue, on another day he would do everything human possible to keep me safe. I've been hearing more and more unsettling stories of the possibility it will never change. I have been dealing with this for a year and a half. I know that doesn't seem long a long time but I know I've been somewhat emotionally effected. I really don't know if I'm strong enough to see my friends enjoying life with their spouses and going on trips and such... . I feel left behind because I have an H who so far I haven't been able to enjoy those thing with because of his BPD. I hate saying that, because it sounds selfish. I'm afraid I will become resentful. All I can do right now is move forward with the psychologist appts for us and see how this is going to go. I really see him trying in the last couple of months. Luckily, I have good friends and family and this is no secret. I might be too open in that regard, but I do not hide is actions toward me. I have a lot of people who know what's going on... . I guess if he's willing to help himself I've got to give him a chance. I have really noticed just in the past week of being on this forum how evident when I want to do something how he tries and twists it around to convince me why I shouldn't (like go out with a friend... . etc etc.) ... . then sometimes he's like "go out and have a good time". But two weeks later I'm a "Bi*c*, Fuc*in idiot... . and so on ect... . ... . I've come to grips with I can't isolate my friends and family anymore based off his moods. I am torn here because I know you should stand by your partner and respect, but that's the thing, this isn't a NORMAL situation. It does seem to help when I stand my ground, though

[musicfan42]

I hope I didn't trigger anyone off there-I probably should have put a trigger warning on my previous post... . will do in future

KellyO-Yeah that's it... . I don't buy into excuses like "they don't know what they're doing" because I have had anger issues in the past.

I'm wondering where you got the idea that you were selfish, egocentric or lazy. I'm wondering whether they were accusations that your BPD ex threw your way when you didn't capitulate to his demands. I got told that I was "cold" one time when I didn't want to listen to a borderline's incessant complaining. I was at a point where I had done enough work on myself to know not to take it personally-that he was just projecting all his own issues at me.  I think that at most, you were naive-you had romantic notions of finding Prince Charming but every girl has a romantic side so it's totally normal to want to find love. I feel like low self-esteem is something that can be worked on-that sure, it's important to have a life outside of a relationship and love yourself too but at the same time, everyone deserves respect in a relationship.

I think that borderlines manipulate an awful lot-that they are constantly seeking help for problems. If they get their own way, then they think you're great but if they don't, then they do tend to turn on you. I think it's really all about being in control-getting their own way... . winning at all costs. I think BPD is primarily an issue of anger and rage and a sense of entitlement which is why I focused in on the anger issue there. I think that borderlines try their luck with their non partners because they know that they'll put up with more whereas with people who are no-nonsense, they tend to have manners... . they know that the no-nonsense person is not going to put up with it, full stop.

I don't even think it's a case of the tables turning as you put it but rather, that the borderline has to be on their best behaviour initially to attract the person in the first place... . build up a rapport with the non so that the non will approve of them and trust them. But once you trust a borderline, they basically know that they can do whatever they want after that... . the borderline relaxes and gets complacent... . stops their best behaviour and just thinks "oh I'm fine now" really. It's like being at an interview and trying to impress the boss to get the job and then doing well in the job for a short time afterwards but then thinking "oh having to be on my best behaviour is a lot of work... . I don't need to do it anymore because I already have the job". In a job interview, you may lie and say that you're really hard working etc just to get the job but the proof is really in the pudding-maybe when you're in the job, you work hard but after a while, you get lazy because you think "oh I have the job". I think the same is true with a borderline-they mirror the other person at the start in order to gain their approval but after a while, they get tired of it and then rebel from that image basically because they were never that person to start off with... . it was just a means to an end... . a way to get the person in the first place. I think that borderline rely on charm too much for everything-that they try to charm their way into everything but it only works for a while because there's no substance to back it up.

[Wishful thinking]

@musicfan

Ive told my h so many times that he overpromoted himself while we were getting to know ea other. I seriously wish i knew about this site before we got married etc. The stages are exactly as you depict it. The mirroring. The manipulation everything.

amidst the prince charming fantasies one genuinely knows that marriage requires work. I certainly didnt expect it to be all roses etc. On the other hand I lean towards KellyO, to be treated the way i am is not how i want to be treated or how i want to be loved. And this boils down to choice.

Both my h and i are christians. But h confessed with his own mouth how he reeled me in. Is it biblical to be tricked into something?

@Jeansok.

Its damn difficult to mourn that loss of never being able to do what normal people do. I too struggle with this. We get invited to go out with other couples but my h doesnt want to go. Right now i am jealous of seeing happy couples.

Ive posted before that my husband has informed me that he doesnt want any children contrary to what was decided before we got married. He can change his mind about anything when he wants. When i change my mind on any matter hell breaks loose and the nastiness begins.

[musicfan42]

Wishful Thinking-No, it's not biblical to be tricked into something-it is manipulation... . trying to get someone to do something by false means... . it's dishonest and underhanded. There is a story in the bible about "wolves in sheep's clothing"-that basically someone can appear to be genuine but actually have malicious intent or an ulterior motive underneath. In the animal kingdom, sheep can be herded from field to field so they're relatively co-operative but wolves are predators and eat the smaller animals... . that's why those metaphors were used.

I don't want to get too preachy here but that story sprung to mind just there.

[Jeansok]

Wishful Thinking, I am jealous too of it and I hate it!. Before I knew what my H had, before he was my husband. After getting back together I told him what I wanted in a relationship and vice versa. I also know that marriage is work and don't expect it to be all peaches and cream, so I don't feel like I have a false idea on this. He agreed to work on certain things, but then after the accusations and throwing up the past in my face like it's all my fault for his underlying issues, never cease to stop. So, now I too feel someone manipulated in a way... . not a good feeling at all. I just want to be a normal couple