Forgiving is hard

[goldylamont]

i've been watching Newsroom (an HBO series show) and a few of the later episodes had some scenes that were really cool and got me thinking. the main character is a news anchor who ends up having to work with his ex-gf (she ends up producing his news show). his ex cheated on him 3 years prior just before he was going to ask her to marry him. anyway the news anchor ends up hiring the guy that the ex cheated on him with, so in a therapy session with his therapist he's trying to find out why he would do this (hire that guy in particular).

his therapist tells him "you think the trick to get over the cheating is by 'not caring'. so you hired her ex-bf to try and prove to yourself that it doesn't matter to you anymore, but it still does. but not caring isn't the trick. you're scared because you know you have to *forgive* your ex, forgiving her is the trick, 'not caring' just won't work."

this really spoke to me about my situation. i've forgiven my ex for so much crap, but i'm still not 100% there yet. and i do feel like i've been pursuing the dream of 'not caring', perhaps not realizing that full forgiveness is a necessary step to get there.

[goldylamont]

i also wanted to point out a tool on my road to full forgiveness it this--don't take anything personally. i've known of this idea for a while but it came to mind again yesterday and it was really powerful and i'm kind of biting at the bit to do some more work and not take anything she does/did personally. it's like i saw a little window opened up and some of the pressure is able to seep out. i'm going to do some work to look at all of the painful actions in a new lens and not take them personally. i have proof that she's been acting crazy towards many others, before and after me, it's not personal. i know it will be challenging but happy this little nugget of knowledge came back to me.

i get this idea of "don't take anything personally", from don Miguel Ruiz's excellent book "The Four Agreements". I read it over a year ago but have been going back and reading again some materials on one of the four agreements which is to not take anything personal. love it

[Surnia]

Goldylamont

I can relate with both of your posts.

Overcoming, forgiving  is a process. Like a compost in nature this needs time, right mixture of wet and wooden parts and so on. There is a risk to be to impatient with the whole thing. 

Not taking things personally it is very wise. A lesson which is useful for life in general. Until my encounter with BPD/NPD I was not aware how many things I took personally before!

Keep going  !

[whereisthezen]

Goldylamont,

So true! Reminds me how close 'not caring and denial' to eachother are for me. Forgiveness is hard to others and ourselves.

i remind myself progress not perfection, it's a big journey!

[leftbehind]

Just yesterday I realized I want to forgive my ex, because in holding on to the anger I'm holding on to him.  The part of me that doesn't want to forgive is the part that realizes that once I let go of my anger, he is truly gone.



So I'm working on forgiving him and also myself, so I can move forward into my future without him.  When I think of moving forward in my life without him, I feel sadness, so then the anger comes up for me.  It's so much easier for me to feel anger rather than sadness or loss.  Feels less painful somehow.  But holding on to the anger in some strange way makes me feel like I still have a relationship to my ex.

I know anger binds us to whatever we are angry at.  When I'm angry at my ex, I feel justified in mentally and verbally rehashing the details of the breakup over and over, to myself and to anyone else who will listen to me.  If I forgive and let go, I am accepting completely that he is no longer a part of my life, and won't ever be again.  I will live the rest of my life without him.

This seems too painful, so I've been holding on to the anger as a way to hold on to him.  I am praying for the willingness to choose to forgive him and myself, so that I can free myself from giving him free rent in my head and in my heart.  I need to make room so that I can love and be loved again.

I have this desire and intention, but it's still hard.  It hurts more to forgive and let go, then I re-experience my loss, my grief.  When I'm angry I still get to have a relationship with him through obsessing, blaming and venting about him.  



But I know if I don't forgive and move on I will be stuck in the same place as time rolls on.  And I can't afford that.  Especially since he's moved on.  Why should I be the one who's life gets frozen in trauma?  That is truly giving him way too much power over me.  So I think I need to love myself more than him, so much that I'm willing to forgive him so that I can move forward.

For me:

forgiving him is really letting him go.  I know it will dissolve the glue (anger) that is holding me to him, and keeping me stuck in place.

I really want this for me.  I want to be strong enough to let him go, and free myself to move forward.  If anyone wants to send me good thoughts and prayers around this I'd be happy to receive them.  Forgiveness hasn't been my strong suit in the past.  Thanks for letting me share my thoughts

[VeryFree]

It all starts with reframing your thoughts. From caring about how others see and treat you to don't care about that anymore. Just care about how you see yourself.

[confetti]

Personally struggling with both NPD and the loss of pwBPD.

Actions and decisions can still be made, those of us with PDs are human.

However, without professional help we cannot control which emotions are tied to certain decisions. It is usually nothing personal whatsoever.

A lot of non's are very sensitive (this is not personal... . I fully understand the pain), but it feels like some of the time it comes from enjoying to feel bad about yourself. That could in itself be a reason some people stay in such harsh relationships, you know, being too hard on yourself.

[BorderlineMagnet]

Meh, who sez you have to forgive? Forgiving and forgetting are 2 different things. Forget her by finding someone else. And keep in the back of your mind what she did if she comes sniffing back around. Then see if she's worth forgiving when you're knee deep in some other girl.

[whatisthetruth]

Borderline Magnet... . . hmmm... . i kinda feel like that.

Left Behind... . your insight resonated and it opened me up some. i will sit with your post ... . i am trying to work with Metta or Loving Kindness.  compassion for self and others, realizing we are doing the best we can... . letting go of the attachment and negativity. 

i have to say i am not ready to forgive. and when i do the metta practice - i cant even go to forgiveness with her.  i mostly feel like i wish her well - thats the best i can do right now with where i am.

i do like the insight of your post though - the awareness that holding onto my  anger is a way of holding onto her is true for me.  i found myself putzing over to the success stories section... . ugh. i got all juiced up thinking i could learn a few things - to try and make it better.  but i think if i try to be the one who is stalwart here that it may never be enough.  i think she may have some NPD traits as well.  when i consider that on top of the BPD- i feel overwhelmed.

so i clearly have more work to do... .

[Clearmind]

i also wanted to point out a tool on my road to full forgiveness it this--don't take anything personally.

Very wise goldylamont. Often when we feel our own sense of guilt and shame we do blame ourselves - its not ours to own.

You will heal in time. I was single for a good long while to ensure I did not go on choose Borderline #2! Therapy, this board and family and friends really helped me understand why I chose my relationship/s. This was not my first rodeo - I potentially have had r/s with 3 Borderlines.

Chin up, look out for you and heal.

[leftbehind]

whatisthetruth, I have to tell you that I wrote that this morning.  This evening I'm angry that my ex just goes from one relationship to the next, with no remorse and no guilt.  I want to forgive, I'm not there yet.

I think my ex truly is the type of BPD person who really doesn't suffer very much.  Every time I write that someone tells me, "no - he really is suffering with this disorder".  I don't see it.  I think everyone else around him suffers from the effects his disorder has on them.  He seems like a dog in the sense that to a dog it's always "NOW".  He is so in the present moment that he rarely thinks about his past, and who he's decimated in it.

[BorderlineMagnet]

leftbehind,

I'm with you there, I really don't think they all suffer so horribly bad. My ex sez BS like she's sorry, and wish it could have been different. Then MAYBE YOU SHOULDNT HAVE CHEATED. She won't even admit her disorder had anything to do with it. Soo does that just make you a dirty whore then? Because we had an extremely loving, sweet, caring relationship with no fighting or arguing, period, up until the day she cheated, then started to push me away, and pull him in. If I was a jerk I could understand, but she made me believe every area was to her satisfaction, and that I was an amazing bf. She mirrored me was why it was so good though. But I doubt she has a shred of remorse. If she did then she wouldn't have dragged that white trash douchebag to the bar with her when she FB creeped me. Not only did that hurt me, but I'm sure it scared him ___less when he saw how easily I could hurt him if he would've started something. All she cared about was her stupid, borderline attention. I hope she gets it by finding an abusive guy, like her tried little stories of her past has claimed. THAT will be karma.

[leftbehind]

BorderlineMagnet, I'm so sorry you're hurting.  I've been cheated on by a previous ex a couple of years ago, and it's devastating.  I do think people who cheat end up with someone paying them back the same karma, although we're not always around to see it when it happens. 

[goldylamont]

leftbehind thank you so much for sharing. the whole quote was powerful!

and to others! Forgiving is NOT forgetting! Nor is it making excuses for their shoddy behavior! Hells to the no. If you re-read some of these posts you will see many mentioning that they want to forgive but that they aren't there yet. same boat with me. not 100% there yet.

so let me say this--i'm not the kind of guy to just take a bunch of isht from people and accept it. i'm not a passivist. i'm not a sucker or anywhere close to a pushover. and if feel that much of the time when i would hear people mention "forgiveness", really they were just admitting that they were passive and had boundary issues... .

right now i see forgiveness as this--forgiveness is the *final* stage of the r/s. anyone who still has anger about the situation talking about "i've forgiven this person" is fake or lying to themselves. i often cringe when i hear about people talking about forgiving or "taking the higher road" when they would be better served letting their anger reestablish their boundaries and re-establish their core as a stronger base. i dunno, i think there's a bunch of zen-buddha-posturing going on, and i don't really like it either.

that being said, i'm coming to realize that at some point i do have to tackle forgiveness, so that i can completely let go. and this sucks! that's why the original title to this post (now changed by moderators, but i'm ok with this   ) was "forgiveness suuuuucks! it's hard!". it's just as hard as letting volumes of anger and hate flow through me, trying not to let it out in the wrong ways. it's just as hard as seeing a BPD ex lie, cheat and go through life acting as if they don't have a care or responsibility in the world. it's hard when their dumb ass moves next to you after not speaking to you for months and proceeds to park their car right behind yours because they are passive aggressive arsehole freaks! it's HARD. but for me, right now i feel like i may be at the start of the next stage for me.

aaaaand, i do have a new lady :-) and i feel like this is perhaps giving me some of the strength to strive to full forgiveness.

forgiveness is advanced, last stage stuff in my opinion. if the thought of it tastes nasty right now then don't waste your time trying to suppress your anger and hate, wait it out and think about it later. for me, forgiveness is juuuuust now starting to look like a possibility rather than be the silent but violent fart nobody wants to smell

[bpdspell]

Forgiveness is different for everyone.

I believe our egos have the tendency to trick us into believing that holding on to anger, hate and resentment in some weird way protects us and makes us more powerful... . but in reality holding on to those negative feelings only disempower and weaken us... . setting us up for more hurt and putting a lampshade on our light. Not forgiving in many ways had kept me NUMB AND STUCK and it feels very disempowering. Believe me. I know what it feels like to hold your breath and wait for karma to work it's magic... . but it's waisted time.

Forgiveness can be challenging; especially if we were modeled forgiveness by unforgiving people. How was forgiveness modeled by your parents/caregivers? My mother was/is judgmental and unforgiving. This is what she modeled to me. She feels entitled in her victimhood and because of this I now work really hard to make a better choice to love myself and my life.  I want to break the cycle of inherited bitterness. My mother is stuck, unhappy, very limited, and a prisoner living in the shadow of her past hurts.

It may be hard to believe this but no one gets away with evil, dirt, or accruing hurt. Our BPD's are no exception. They are living in a vortex of shame, emptiness, and misery that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Just because they wear a mask and hide it well doesn't mean it isn't there. Trust and believe. The pain is there, it's intense, and it hurts them in a powerful way. They use drugs, sex and alcohol to numb and mask their deep pain. But these vices all fail.

Forgive them when you are ready. They are mentally ill and are tortured souls.

[johnnyonthespot]

Great thread... . very helpful

Leftbehind, I agree completely... . I WANT to forgive. But I'm not there yet. Once the anger and resentment dissipate, I'll be able to. But that may never happen.

And in the interim, I have done exaactly what goldylamont suggested... . allowing the anger to define my boundaries and priorities so that this sort of emotional rape never happens to me again.

Also, I'm in that group  who isn't so convinced about their 'suffering'... . in the case of my ex, she really appeared to have no remorse or regret for her repeated transgressions. BPDspell, I hope you're right... . that they ARE just wearing a mask. But I'm not so sure... .

'The stupid neither forgive nor forget, the naive forgive and forget, the wise forgive but do not forget.'  --Thomas S. Szasz

[tailspin]

goldy,

I had to begin by forgiving myself... . the shame was intense.  I felt stupid, foolish, weak and naïve.  It wasn't until much later that I realized these were the same traits I saw in my ex; the same traits I blamed him for having; the same traits he had that royally pissed me off. 

So, I started at the beginning with me. Forgiving myself made it that much easier to forgive him.  Forgiveness doesn't absolve actions; it only means you refuse to carry the pain in your heart any longer. 

Resentment builds an invisible emotional bond with another; forgiveness is the only way to dissolve this link. 

Your reward will be freedom.

tailspin

[whatisthetruth]

goldy ... . silent violent fart? hahahahahahahaha 

ok feck forgiveness  for now - u make one helluva case for just being where you are.

I have to say - i have never felt hate a day in my life until recently. it kinda wigs me out to tell you the truth.  its the friggin behaviors that are so super hitty that I cant get past.

and the blaming. irresponsibility. most likely cheating (given her hpd thing)

jesus

[whereisthezen]

Great thread!

The honesty in all of these posts had my full attention, it's so great we can get to our real feelings here without buffering them into something lighter for audience view. Raw and real I think helps is heal and forgive or forget in our own ways and time.

[whereisthezen]

Confetti,

The last paragraph you wrote really resonates with me. I think you bring up a good point, perhaps our sensitivity is seen by some others with PD's as a weakness. It's deeper than that however, it is like being highly tuned in to our environment, ( either way in peaceful places or in chaotic places) and processing 100 things: sights, sounds, energy, faces, ect. from an early age, I myself, have been molded this way and am aware of I greatly... .  

our meters/gauges can be very off for many years of our lives, our curious nature leads to exploring solutions to cooe or to fix our environments more rather than setting up boundaries and having a clear understanding to know when or who is a big red flag.

Some of us have gone through a loss earlier in life (not necessarily a death but a loss of love, respect, trust, hope, safety) and have become sensitive to enjoying the little things that bring joy, albeit probably the too "little" keeps us staying or connected to something or someone longer than we should for little gain or hope.

I do not think nons like feeling bad for themselves. Me, not at all, I'm always escaping the bad to run to the positive. Again, my gauge is off, boundary setting off, little things give hope. Of late reflections on codependency have me looking at addiction (addicted to situations, partners). So you and I may be meaning the same thing but it's more than what's on the surface. This is probably why we are attracted to those with PD's and vice versa; we are wired to be curious, to handle chaos ( good or bad) and PD's have shifting emotions or lives that in the beginning or for a while seem normal and hold our attention. Our attachment and love to PD's whether right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy is very deep, very real.

Thank you for giving me something to think about from your perspective and letting me dig into areas I haven't had a chance to think about in a while, feels good to get to some new understanding ( even if we have different understanding for ourselves individually you opened up discussion for me to take a good look and explore myself and a non perspective).

Personally struggling with both NPD and the loss of pwBPD.

Actions and decisions can still be made, those of us with PDs are human.

However, without professional help we cannot control which emotions are tied to certain decisions. It is usually nothing personal whatsoever.

A lot of non's are very sensitive (this is not personal... . I fully understand the pain), but it feels like some of the time it comes from enjoying to feel bad about yourself. That could in itself be a reason some people stay in such harsh relationships, you know, being too hard on yourself.

[bb12]

not caring = detaching to me

my lesson from all of this is that detaching absolutely requires forgiveness. but be as quick to forgive ourselves as we are them

and then, once past the trauma of BPD abuse, attach less to things in general

I can still care about people a lot, but I don't attach like I used to

strong attachment bonds mean that you can't help but take things personally. The other person has effectively become part of you!

healthy distance, respect for self, and a conscious monitoring of attachment levels = personal freedom



bb12