When do "communication skills" just reinforce bad behavior?

[nomoremommyfood]

I've previously brought up this subject-  in a really lengthy thread - of how I sometimes feel that offering [url=https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-validation]validation[/b][/url] during conflict prevents the pwBPD from the natural consequences of their actions.  

As my dBPDbf and I slowly begin to re-communicate after a rough two-weeks, I've delved into literature on improving BPD relationships. Along with these forums (the most helpful), I've been reading Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder on my phone and Stop Walking on Eggshells at home. I'm not expecting Ulysses but some of the communication tactics sound not only unrealistic, but positive reinforcement of hurtful behaviors that would naturally be met with someone walking away.

For example, many books include scripted conversations. I get that I'm supposed to adapt them to my own situation but, frankly, my bf would instantly pick up on "I hear that your feeling... . " and call it (quite accurately) the psycho-babble. Second, there's a conversation described between a mother and daughter where the mother does the "right" thing by reenforcing her daughter's emotions. Then, the daughter is calmed while the mother may "grit her teeth" and "feel a knot in her chest."

Um, this is a positive outcome?

It seems like many tactics for communication are designed with the primary operative to soothe the pwBPD while ignoring feelings of the SO and leaving them seething in quiet resentment. Though I understand that verbal abuse is not to be tolerated (and am implementing this as a boundary), it seems to me that - in many cases - behavior that would under normal circumstances be greeted with a cold shoulder by the general public is greeted with soothing and understanding by the pwBPD's loved one.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but wouldn't that positively reinforce bad behavior?

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[maryy16]

I have always questioned this also. I feel many times that my H "gets away" with his bad behavior... . that I am the one that has to suck it up while he is able to act however he pleases. I reinforced this bad behavior for 25+ years before I knew anything about BPD.  I would say anything just to soothe him and make him stop raging.  Of course, this only gave him more power over me and taught him that I was, in fact, a doormat.  The more I apologized, the weaker I was in his eyes.

Fortunately at this point in our relationship (30 years) my H now admits to having BPD, so I can deal with him differently than in the past when he absolutely refused to believe that anything was wrong with him. When he goes into a rage, I do validate his feelings, but I will definitely let him know that he is out of line. I will not apologize for something I did not do. 

Right now, my goal is to reinforce to him that I am not perfect, that I will make mistakes, that sometimes I will be in a bad mood, that sometimes I will be upset, BUT that does not mean that I am a bad person... . that sometimes a good person can do bad things. Trying to teach him to forgive and move on.

Unfortunately, a relationship with a pwBPD is not a 50-50 split. We have to work harder when we do decide to stay with them.  I guess that is what radical acceptance is all about.

[MockingbirdHL]

I totally agree with this ... . I also feel like the "scripts" are so unlike anything I would ever say, that my H would see right through it in a heartbeat.  BUT, I have taken their methods and tried to adapt them to my speech patterns, and it HAS seemed to help.  If he says "how would you feel if ... . " I will agree that I would feel the same way (reinforcing the reality of the feeling) but then suggest that I would not have jumped to the same conclusion (reinforcing the actual facts) and most of the time it seems to be working ... . of course we are in week five of his "episode" right now, and although he seems to be calming down, or cycling out of it, he still has not come home.

Also, sometimes I feel like if I follow the script I will sound absolutely sarcastic (not a good idea).  For example, I told his T that he was spending every day looking me up online trying to find "proof" of my cheating. Which of course does not exist.  I told her that I asked him "Why do you do that?  Don't do that to yourself".  She told me that was not the way to respond (and I see that now), but instead I should have said something like "Wow, it must be frustrating to keep looking day after day and never finding anything" ... . but that sounds SO smug and sarcastic to me?

[nomoremommyfood]

Unfortunately, a relationship with a pwBPD is not a 50-50 split. We have to work harder when we do decide to stay with them.  I guess that is what radical acceptance is all about.

I completely agree and radical acceptance is actually a concept I've found helpful on multiple levels. Yet I continue to find the self-help books both impractical and almost insulting. It feels as if the text is being written under the presumption that partners of pwBPD think and speak like therapists. Frankly, this forced manner of interaction is a huge problem I have with therapists. I also feel like a  doormat and disrespected but - if someone talked to me in a manner that repeated my feelings - I'd feel my intelligence was insulted and lose respect for that person.

I totally agree with this ... . I also feel like the "scripts" are so unlike anything I would ever say, that my H would see right through it in a heartbeat.  BUT, I have taken their methods and tried to adapt them to my speech patterns, and it HAS seemed to help.  If he says "how would you feel if ... . " I will agree that I would feel the same way (reinforcing the reality of the feeling) but then suggest that I would not have jumped to the same conclusion (reinforcing the actual facts) and most of the time it seems to be working ... . of course we are in week five of his "episode" right now, and although he seems to be calming down, or cycling out of it, he still has not come home.

I agree that I'd feel ridiculous saying "What I'm hearing is you think my outfit us a deliberate jab at you." Also, though validation and keeping myself calm has worked, my boyfriend is pretty astute at picking out psycho-babble and calls me out on it. So, while these techniques may help, it doesn't seem like there's a vast degree of variety in "coping with pwBPD" styles for the vast variety of people with BPD. I've got plenty of material should my bf suddenly turn more overtly fearing of abandonment, claim I don't love him, and call me incessantly, I've got little on his avoidance of intimacy, claims that he no longer loves me, and long silent spells. An alternative would help!

By the way, Mockingbird, you mentioned your husband cycling in and out of "episodes" - how do you know when the episode is nearing its end?

[Chosen]

I know what you mean by self-help books offering psyco-babble.  And when I don't do it genuinely, H sees through it and calls me fake.  (If you have read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans you will know that her suggestions are just textbook scripts and will likely not work in real life).  However, I find those books useful too because I'm kind of slow when it comes to saying the right thing (I'm usually quick to reply, and tend to say the wrong things), so they help me know the type of thing I should say, and I adapt it for my own use.

Actually, and this is just from personal experience, when I'm doing the psycho-babble with a genuine desire to help, it sometimes works.  Maybe because I'm just so unskilled in validation that I need a therapist to tell me how to speak, but when H is beginning to dysregulate, sometimes I need to say simple things that will seem to demean intelligence to a non.  But it works at that time because he can't take any more complex thoughts at the moment. 

To be honest, if you're expecting 50-50 from a relationship with a pwBPD, you will be disappointed.  I think it's unrealistic to expect that.  How many people around you have/ will tell you to run when they know how your pwBPD treats you sometimes?  It's because people in "normal" 50-50 relationships will not tolerate any of that.  But yet we stayed, for one reason or another.  And to survive the relationship we must learn radical acceptance.  We need to let go of certain expectations.  Yes that means to some extent knowing they will do some things that most people will consider unacceptable.  And I think it's really up to each one of us to decide how much we wil ltake for ourselves. 

[VeryFree]

BPD is an illness.

You can't expect to change the pwBPD.

If you want to stay in the r/s you will have to change your behavior. The communicationtools presented are to help you stay in the r/s without making things worse, while protecting yourself.

Using them, IMHO doesn't mean it's healthy for the NON. The NON is in an non-healthy r/s. Whatever trick/communicationskill you try, the situation isn't a healthy one.

[musicfan42]

I feel like communication skills are just there to sell yourself to others... . to portray in a certain way... . they're not actually who you are but they're just tools to maintain that relationship, whatever relationship it is. I think that sometimes, you might hate your boss for example but you just have to act friendly... . it's just life really. And sometimes in relationships, the other person is irritating me but it's like I can't say that outright because the other person would just get offended so it's like you have to word everything in a diplomatic manner. I guess that's what I really feel it is-diplomacy. It's like that old phrase "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" really.

But when it comes to borderlines, I feel like it's just an intolerable situation because you're dealing with a high-conflict person so diplomacy, negotiation etc is probably not going to work... . I would probably opt for a more heavy handed approach with someone like that because the soft approach does not work. If someone is fairly reasonable, then it's fine but just not for someone argumentative... . with someone argumentative, you have to be really firm and take no crap from them basically so yes, they're very stressful people to be around.

[MockingbirdHL]

Nomore- I can usually tell when my H is getting towards the end of his cycle because they follow a very similar pattern. At the beginning he is extremely angry (read: afraid). He acts as if he is 110% certain of everything he thinks, says or feels. In this stage the anger (fear) is directed at me. It's all about what I've done or haven't done.

Towards the end he is more depressed and he begins to question himself saying things like "I don't know what to do anymore" and "I don't know what to think" and he starts looking to me to tell him how I feel (maybe to mirror me?). Of course by this stage I'm usually fed up with giving and validating but getting nothing in return so I try and let him decide for himself how he feels. He verbalizes this stage as all about him.

Of course I know the whole time it's always all about him.

The moods are pretty predictable. What isn't is how long each will last, and whether he will regress from one to the previous (which he did this last time). In the past five weeks he's gone from anger (two weeks) to depression (five days) then suddenly back to anger (ten days) and back to depression (remainder of the time).

Now he's intending to come home (tonight). He asks, he doesn't just assume; he needs me to tell him I'm ok with it. I'm perfectly ok with him coming home but I'm also much better prepared to set and stick to my own boundaries this time around.

[waverider]

I guess the books are giving you the ideal to work for so you get the point of them. The authors are not you so they cant put it in your speak and everyone is different, and to suddenly start sounding like you have been reading the "Idiots guide to Shrink speak' is going to not cause a favorable reaction.

The idea I guess is to take what you can and start to adjust, with time, as all changes are slow anyway.

The same applies to what you pick up here. You try a bit at a time, feel the water and see what works. Do not try to attempt everything at once.

Most of the tools have their time and place, eventually you will get the feel for that. Validation is more the diplomatic maneuvering to avoid conflict. Once a full frontal assault is in action its time to hit the boundaries and protect yourself.

It will take a long time to get the balance right, probably not 100%, but at least enough to make a big difference.

I must admit now that I seem to have got rid of most of the out of control conflict, I have slackened off on the proactive validation side. Mainly I think lower levels of regular conflict brings them off the high alert defensiveness, so I have more time to defuse issues as they arise, rather than being afraid of them arising

[nomoremommyfood]

BPD is an illness.

You can't expect to change the pwBPD.

If you want to stay in the r/s you will have to change your behavior. The communicationtools presented are to help you stay in the r/s without making things worse, while protecting yourself.

Using them, IMHO doesn't mean it's healthy for the NON. The NON is in an non-healthy r/s. Whatever trick/communicationskill you try, the situation isn't a healthy one.

I think my annoyance kind of got twisted here. I'm not expecting someone with BPD to change or to put more into the relationship. I know he's likely to stay sick and not even return to treatment. The topic is more broad than my personal situation. In a similarly, I've complained there aren't enough secular alternatives to Anonymous programs. This isn't based on the fact that they failed to work for me but on the opinion that they only address a subset of those they intend to help.

The contradictions and lack of universality present in popular BPD "how to improve your relationship" literature drive me crazy. I just read a description of a scenario in one of these books wherein a BPD husband throws a public tantrum at a party. She is to reply with an entire paragraph about feeling uncomfortable, angry, and helpless when yelled at in public and she is asking him to stop so they can continued having a good time at the party. Apparently, the "wrong" thing to say is "if you don't stop yelling at me right now, I am going to leave." Yet, from what I've understood, not only is a heated moment a poor time for a discussion, but one is to set limits on things like public attacks... . where walking away during heated conflict would be the "right" choice!

I find those books useful too because I'm kind of slow when it comes to saying the right thing (I'm usually quick to reply, and tend to say the wrong things), so they help me know the type of thing I should say, and I adapt it for my own use.

This is what upsets me. Why does there have to be one "right" and one "wrong" way to do things? And while I don't expect a relationship to be 50/50, I also don't want a relationship that's an extension of a therapist's office. Granted, broad concepts in these books can be helpful (though I find these boards more so) but I don't feel like anyone - particularly anyone already dealing with a BPD partner - should walk away from a conflict feeling like they did the technique "wrong."

These tactics may work for professionals but, in my opinion, there needs to be practical alternatives extending beyond the "right" and "wrong" way to do things.

[waverider]

BPD is an illness.

You can't expect to change the pwBPD.

If you want to stay in the r/s you will have to change your behavior. The communicationtools presented are to help you stay in the r/s without making things worse, while protecting yourself.

Using them, IMHO doesn't mean it's healthy for the NON. The NON is in an non-healthy r/s. Whatever trick/communicationskill you try, the situation isn't a healthy one.

I found using the tools reduces the frequency of conflict, which takes you both off a permanent state of war footing. This increases the margin between trigger and reaction. The fear of conflict and raising contentious issues within the non reduces, along with stress and resentment. It creates a platform where the pwBPD may be more willing to address their issues in a healthier manner as the previous avenue of projecting onto the non becomes less readily available.

That has worked for me, may work for others, but probably not everyone.

[waverider]

I don't feel like anyone - particularly anyone already dealing with a BPD partner - should walk away from a conflict feeling like they did the technique "wrong."

These tactics may work for professionals but, in my opinion, there needs to be practical alternatives extending beyond the "right" and "wrong" way to do things.

Totally agree, and that is why I believe these things are only idealistic guides, and you should accept that you are doing your best and you will not always get it right, and there will not always be the one right response to a particular circumstance, and if at that particular time you think stuff it i cant be bothered with this right now... . thats ok too.

The aim is to generally adopt the pointers so that on average it will help you do your best. I am a 24/7 carer to my partner, and at times i will take my carers hat off and go off duty and if she rubs me up wrong I will act how I feel like rather than what "the book" says. But I know I am naturally a nice guy and the "books" have taught me a better way of viewing these things so my natural "gruff" response will not be as bad as it once once. I dont expect myself to be perfect and I'm ok with that.

I have also learnt better how to fix up the aftershocks, so I am not as afraid of them. Even in "normal" relationships couples dont always pander to each other all the time. The occasional heated spat is normal