my friend has BPD, her mom doesn't know... need some insight

[qwaszx]

so, my friends in her late 20's, she has BPD, lives with her mom, they cycle like crazy, her moms soo worn out, things are getting worse, they seem like they hate each other, and are always raging, theres alot of other factor going wrong in their lives too. i lived there for a bit but the tention between them if so high, i left... . i worry that my friends mom also has BPD, but i dont know... . i dont know it i should tell her about this sight, maybe it can help ease some of the pain... . but if shes also BPD i dont want to make thing worse for my friend or her mom... . her mom doesnt even know what BPD is... . i've asked for insight on another board... . a lot of people thought i show try and just get them apart... . but we dont have anywhere for her to go... . plus she worries her mom will lose the house with out her disability check... . should i try and inform her mom, tell her about the sight? or should i mind my own, just keep doin what im doin for my friend... . i just upsets me that there is no understanding between them, and that they are always fighting... . and i know they love each other and her moms really afraid for her daughter life... . and she trys her best, and goes above and beyond... . but i also know her moms doing more harm then good at this point... .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[vivekananda]

I would like to give you the 'right' advice, but I don't know if there is any 'right' advice in this situation, qwas.

It is obviously something that you feel very sad about, and feel powerless to help your friend or her mum in this. And perhaps that is how it will continue to be. It is likely that if you intervene, that it will fall back onto you and will harm the relationship you do have with your friend. Your friend who does have BPD would probably value your relationship with her highly and to threaten that relationship may not be a wise move - for your friend's sake.

You don't know if her mum has BPD, she may not. However, BPD can have a strong genetic component, so it is possible. Her mum may not have BPD, but may have instead BPD traits, which will make it hard for her to remain even handed. Whether these things are so, it would be the case that her mum would be exhausted with the pain and drama of having a daughter with BPD.

If I were you, I would say nothing. I might obviously read a book and leave it lying around... . but I wouldn't do anything that could be read as giving advice. Are you yourself skilled in values based boundary setting and validation? These skills are the best tools in our toolbox. If you are comfortable with your ability to use these skills yourself, you could perhaps talk about them with your friend and the mum, just as a part of open conversation... . Again though, I would not give advice. I would not use the words 'you should', neither would I say 'yes, but'.

Finally, if I were you, I would work on 'radical acceptance'. There are simply things we cannot do. Trying to help adults who do not want our help is something that we must let go of.

Good luck,

Vivek    

[angeldust1]

Vivek ,

Sorry Qwax,  my advice is the same as Vivek ,  I don' know your age,  but this seems like this is a professional matter.  Way over my head and I'm 60 and have been to counseling many times.  Sad situation and I know you want to help,  but not sure there is any for you w/o making matters worse.  Sorry.

HAVE A QUESTION FOR VIVEK


What did you mean she may not have BPD,  but may have BPD traits,   what is the difference?   I'm curious to know.  Is it the same as living with someone with a mental illness and you mimic their traits?  Is this possible? I lived with a bi-polar and a BPD,  and after so many years,  20 yrs I too felt I was beginning to be as sick as they were. 

[qwaszx]

Ya, I guess, but the slim chance that her mom doesn't have BPD also makes me want to say something, though I think she does, first time I met her, she wanted to buy my something, I said, "no, I can get my own:)" she just about lost it... . (and this was when they didn't live together, so I can't just say maybe it was her daughters projections wearing her down, and she was having an off day making her more irritated) sigh... .

I'll just keep waiting I suppose. but what's the point of knowing all this stuff if I doesn't do anyone any good? (and yes I know, it does a lot of good for myself, me and her(kinda) and many of the people on here, I'm just frustrated, and venting, more or less)... . what if I'm holding on to a key bit of information that could help there situation, provide some understanding and support?... .

I'm also wondering what it means when someone has just BPD traits? don't a lot of people develop some traits after living with a Boarderline for sometime? (ex, irritability or outburst of anger, feeling detached or emotionally numb, depression, panic attacks, and so on) couldn't some BPD traits be just be another disorder altogether?  

[vivekananda]

ok, I'll give it a go, but don't jump on me if I'm not perfect, ok  and I am verbose too - lots of words... . sorry

"if you lie down with dogs, you wake up with  " (Spanish and other countries' proverb)

The causes of BPD, it is acknowledged are genetic and environmental. Genetic is easy to understand, environmental can include community or social norms and mores (unwritten rules of behaviour) and family (abusive or its unwritten rules of behaviour).

As a mum whose daughter accuses her of a lifetime of abuse, I'll explain that first. For someone with a predisposition towards BPD, an environment that is 'invalidating' is the equivalent to being 'abusive' for a pwBPD. When I use the term invalidating I am using it with a very sound understanding of that concept. It doesn't mean not loving, it doesn't mean neglectful - by standards in our society, it is a normal family environment. The thing is, pwBPD need validation like they needed their mother's milk.

Our society, in general, is also invalidating. This is my hobby horse, so I'll say no more here or you'll not shut me up 

Genetic. Well BPD is in my family (my mum, my sis, extended cousins) - they have been functioning all their lives and if you didn't know it, then you wouldn't see it.

gotta interrupt this... . gotta go, sorry  - will return.

viv   

[vivekananda]

ok... . continued:

so BPD has a number of 'causes' and they would all interrelate.

Now, a trait is a distinguishing feature in character or habit. BPDs traits can exist in people without BPD. Sometimes I like to think that BPD is on a continuum, with varying degrees of severity, somewhere there is a line that clouds the reality of the pw BPD so they have no insight into what the do, how they are. We who are not BPD have the capacity to look reflectively, critically (not in the negative meaning, but in the careful considered meaning) at who we are. If we want to improve our relationships, develop our humanity, we need to work on ourselves.

So, across your reading you may come across personality traits that you may recognise in perhaps your family, or elsewhere and perhaps in yourself. When we look at ourselves, we can investigate that wherever there is a discomfort in a relationship, there is an unmet emotional need.

For example: when I first understood my dd had BPD, my response was: why doesn't she just go for a diagnosis and then get treatment? I was upset and angry that she wouldn't do what I thought was so important and so obvious. I had an unmet emotional need for a sense of control. I needed to 'fix it', this is born of my anxiety and worry and guilt etc etc. Now I could describe that therein is a personality trait that is 'self righteous' I knew the answer, I was right, why didn't she see it and do something?

So when I talk about    , this is what I refer to. I have studied closely my family, my dh's family and defined core traits that include: sense of entitlement, self righteousness, a sort of sense of omnipotence or superiority... . and there are likely to be more, but these three are most important to me.

My self righteousness leads me to be judgemental. This is a most damaging trait. It is invalidating. Now, in everyday life, this is no great problem at all. I am a well loved person with many good friends who would speak highly of me and a loving relationship of over 30 years with my dh, but this is nothing if I don't have a good relationship with my dd. So, I work hard at coming to grips with my thinking and behaviour to address this  .

Basically, I am consciously working at becoming a better person. I am changing what I can.

So, can you give me feedback? Do you understand what I mean, do you have any questions? Are you able to look at others and see their more unhelpful traits and define them? Can you see any behaviours in yourself that would be good to change?

Don't forget, that is ultimately what we expect our loved ones with BPD to do?

awaiting your responses with bated breathe 

Viv     

[qwaszx]

For example: when I first understood my dd had BPD, my response was: why doesn't she just go for a diagnosis and then get treatment? I was upset and angry that she wouldn't do what I thought was so important and so obvious. I had an unmet emotional need for a sense of control. I needed to 'fix it', this is born of my anxiety and worry and guilt etc etc. Now I could describe that therein is a personality trait that is 'self righteous' I knew the answer, I was right, why didn't she see it and do something?

I do/did the same thing; it’s something I’m working on….it irritates me when I can see the right answer, so blatantly obvious in front of us  (do it a lot with her seeking therapy again or about leaving her moms, god I actually do it with a lot of things). I know what she needs to do, but she refuses to do it. Ok so I’m “self righteous” also, leading to be judgemental... .

Also I’m a fixer/rescuer. My intentions are good, but my methods in the past sucked.

I want to just tell her she can stay with me if she wants, I want to say we wont get tangled again(I fear we would, neither of us are good with boundaries, working on that also, im stronger then I was, and a lot better educated then when I first met her)…blaha it just makes me cringe thinking about “tangled”….i used to wright while I lived with her, “shes worth it to me, I would save her forever, but I know that at some point she has to save herself”….a lot of the “fixing” settled when she brought someone in our life that could have killed us both, it brought up a lot of negative emotions from both of our past, stuff from mine I never wanted to re-live, had tried to bury…after we got through that mess I decided I couldn’t do it anymore, that it was pointless to drown with her, im not sure I even could mental do it again…it was hell, part of me says no freaking way, i'd rather die... . but I still fight with the idea that she was a lot better when we had a place, and she wasn’t at her moms, I know what I need to do to get her feeling better, but can’t while shes there and feeling like shes always degraded, she can’t get up there if things don’t change.…shes also bagged me not to “save” her, and to let her die………soo I find that part really hard…I know we are supposed to let them fail/fall, so they learn…but I doesn’t seem to me that shes learnt a damn thing by doin that….she just dies, retreates back into herself… finds worst people to invade her... . everything we worked through seems lost….

Also was dignosed ADHA as a kid, haven’t seen any professionals in a long while, and never had it addressed, so I’ve been trying to find a therapist, went and got an assessment this last winter, but I never heard back….:S so I got a bunch a book on that and work books and such. I think once I fully address my stuff I’ll be well on my way and feel like I already have a head start.



Im sure there are a lot more things, but those are my main 3 im working on right now…I don’t know how to define a lot terms for what I need to do, but I do have a general sense of the issues I need to address.

And of course, there are so many things I need to change, and i'd like to do it all at once... . the whole taking time doesn't work with me  , im actually glade I met her, because without meeting her I wouldn’t have ever known anything really about my “flaws”, I wouldn’t have even looked at myself/into myslef, or what I need to work on for me and my future, and what I need to change. I think she might have been exactly what I needed, as painful as this has all been…... . and no I wouldn’t ask her to do something I wasn’t willing to do myself, I understand how hard some of this has been for me…and I don’t want to even imagine how hard doing this is for her... .

Thank you, I think you clarified that for me:)

ps. please feel free to comment, I do need a bird eye view I have my homework cut out for me:)

[vivekananda]

You would feel proud of the honesty of your response eh? I am impressed   It's not easy to say, hmm I think I need to change myself because of this negative quality or the other. Afterall we are they way we are, no? How many people do you know say, this is the way I am, take it or leave it? If anyone says that to me today, you know what I do eh? 

1) I think it's easy to be judgemental and self righteous in our society. Usually we can control it enough to get away with it. Thing is, if we want to develop our own selves, then this is something we have to address. I often think of those people I admire and the sort of person they are... . the ones who make me feel good, the ones who are gentle and kind and thoughtful etc... . I want to be like that, so I'm determined to do what I can to be like that! I don't want to be invalidating, I don't want to be unthinkingly hurtful, or insensitive. I want others to feel better because they have spoken with me, not so they would like me, but because I like people.

So, fixer qwaszx, you are able to see what it is that is unhelpful for you. Next thing is to understand why you do that. Then what do you need to do to change it? Well, that requires a fair bit of questioning of yourself. So, this is the best place for this I think (though, the partners board is the best place for you - we parents have a different sort of dynamic with our 'children'.

2) Your friend does the things she does for a number of reasons, but one thing is, she is using strategies that have worked in the past. Men like to solve problems, they like to think of themselves as rescuers. It isn't that hard to get a man to 'save' you. Problem is that you solve someone's problem for them, they never learn to do it themselves. Instead they learn how to make others do what they want. So, if you want to help your friend, you need to have your 'boundaries' or 'limits' in place, understand the difference between enabling and supporting. Then you can work on helping them trust you - use 'validation and you know the SET technique... . The more you practise, the easier it gets. Change your behaviour and eventually you'll change your thinking. (and vice versa)

3) Now q, have you heard of neurofeedback? Google it, check it out. Apparently it has been very helpful with ADHD. It is a way to work with a neurologist, to help you change the way you think and research has shown it to be effective in ADHD. I believe they will do an assessment and then devise a treatment of about 30 or more sessions. It looks really good. Maybe you could ask them while they are checking out the ADHD stuff, if they can help you change your 'judgemental' and 'fixing' attitudes   And let us know how it goes! This might be a quicker fix than working steadily through it the way we are.

But although this may take more time, I do like the opportunity to exchange ideas with like minded people.

And of course, there are so many things I need to change, and i'd like to do it all at once... . the whole taking time doesn't work with me  , im actually glade I met her, because without meeting her I wouldn’t have ever known anything really about my “flaws”, I wouldn’t have even looked at myself/into myslef, or what I need to work on for me and my future, and what I need to change. I think she might have been exactly what I needed, as painful as this has all been

There is no way I would have wanted my dd to have this disorder, but she does. The blessing is just as you have put it.  And that makes me feel so sad.

take care q

Vivek    

[qwaszx]

Thank you ya and I can't say I haven't ever used those words myself:)

I just have some questions... . what does it mean to understand why I do these things? does it mean looking through my past? does it mean looking at society? Am I looking for key moments or looking as a whole picture?

I have looked at things in my past for reason I do what I do and I am who I am. I look for answers to questions that might not really have any. If someone could just naturally be born with BPD then couldn't I just be born me for no other reason, though I could find a lot of things in my childhood/teen years that would have been major factors in creating who I am today.

Also yes I have heard of neurofeedback, I actually found a therapist who does it while looking for someone better for my friend to try but although being across the world have hindered me from being able to see her right now, I am thinking of move back to an area close to her, and starting treatment there:) I've looked around where I am now and haven't found anyone. I'm also thinking that I'm going to meet with her when I visit to see more if that would work. I have been emailing her for the past 4 months now

[pessim-optimist]

Hi again qwaszx!

I just read through this thread... .

Yeah, in regards to your friend and her mom, I agree with others here. It could be damaging unsolicited advice. Also, if her mom is BPD, she would not be able to take your advice even if she wanted to... .

The best plan for you is to work on yourself, the validation and boundaries and other skills. And be a good friend.

If you still feel an uncontrollable urge to help, you might try suggesting one of the helpful behaviors (something that you think would help your friend most) IF you are in a conversation with her mom and IF she asks your opinion or shares some of her frustrations with her daughter. Like if she says "I don't know what to do with her... . " you might say "I know, it must be so hard to watch your daughter do this. I don't know if that would help in your situation, but when I lived with her, I noticed that when I ... . , she seemed to be doing better. It may or may not work in your situation." And leave it at that.

As for your question about trying to understand yourself: The main thing is who you are today. It is less important how you got here. Sometimes it helps to understand the causes of our behaviors looking into our past, but that in itself will not change who you are today. Look at yourself and the things you would like to change and work on those.

For me personally, it was essential to realize that we are not stuck with who we are, we can change. And the road toward change is by slow, incremental, methodical changes in our behaviors/habits (you are not going to like this because of your age - at your age we want things NOW). But change does not happen quickly. Also, what helped me was to read that it is normal to feel unnatural, uncomfortable and even fearful sometimes trying new behaviors. That discouraged me in the past. Today, I know that it is normal, it is ok, others feel that way, and if I keep practicing, I will feel more natural, and confident as time goes by. And IT WORKS! And the most important point at the end: failure is to be expected as PART of the PROGRESS! Not as a sign that it doesn't work.

All the best on your journey quaszx! 

[qwaszx]

If you still feel an uncontrollable urge to help, you might try suggesting one of the helpful behaviors (something that you think would help your friend most) IF you are in a conversation with her mom and IF she asks your opinion or shares some of her frustrations with her daughter. Like if she says "I don't know what to do with her... . " you might say "I know, it must be so hard to watch your daughter do this. I don't know if that would help in your situation, but when I lived with her, I noticed that when I ... . , she seemed to be doing better. It may or may not work in your situation." And leave it at that.

that's pretty much the approach I was going to go for if I were to talk to her mom. I wouldn't tell her to do anything or say anything like "well what your doing here isn't help" merely listen to her, and mention things that seemed to work while we live together but being careful not to say something that sounds more like "I did this, it work, you don't you" cuz none of that will help their situation at all... . her mom and I have a good standing relationship as is, the last thing I want is to get on her "bad" side or hurt their relationship, how ever damaged it already seems... .

But change does not happen quickly. Also, what helped me was to read that it is normal to feel unnatural, uncomfortable and even fearful sometimes trying new behaviors. That discouraged me in the past. Today, I know that it is normal, it is ok, others feel that way, and if I keep practicing, I will feel more natural, and confident as time goes by.

this is a thought I was thinking on today, that new things feel uncomfortable, but its like learn anything new over time as I get more confident in new skills, it will start feeling better, and easer for me because for me that uneasy fearful feeling is a huge turn off:) im glade you said it also, now I feel better about it knowing its not just something I feel, and that's it will actually stop with time:P

Thank you

And I do lots of reading - and I am selective about what I read. I don't read things that will take me off target. I avoid popular culture and stick to 'academic' discussion - or the stuff on this site here - which has been the best help to me.

I have done a tone of reading, and a lot of research on this disorder, and myself I told her by the time this was over I would be like an encyclopedia on BPD:P and all the other stuff that goes with it... . I somewhat enjoy trying new skills im learning, at least when I feel like im making some small progress in becoming a better me:P I still have a lot to learn, I mean I tone. a lot of set backs! I guess old habits die hard, right? but I do try my best, even though I sometimes feel like its going no where... . i'm still going to keep working away at it anyways:)

Thank you for everything   

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders