Can someone explain the difference between NPD and BPD?

[Rockylove]

I just read an article 5 Early Warning Signs You're With a Narcissist by Dr. Craig Malkin (via Huffington Post) which I found a bit disturbing.  The "signs" are so closely related to BPD, but sound to be much more intentionally malicious.  My bf shows all 5 signs of NPD (according to the article) but I don't see the intent.  It's a bit deeper than that.  I see it as a reaction more than a calculated act.  Can anyone clarify?

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[Rose Tiger]

NPD criteria:

Includes five or more of the following characteristics:

Is grandiose in evaluation of self without demostrating superior achievements

Concentrates on fantasies of great success, influence, intelligence, beauty or perfect love

Believes in own "specialness" and expects to associate with high prestiage people or institutions

Demands to be overly admired

Feels entitled to special treatment and to have demands acceded to

Exploits others to achieve own ends

Lacks empathy for others

Frequently envious of others or assumes others are envious of him or her

Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior[8]BPD criteria:

Marked mood swings with periods of intense depressed mood, irritability and/or anxiety lasting a few hours to a few days (but not in the context of a full-blown episode of major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder).

Inappropriate, intense or uncontrollable anger.

Impulsive behaviors that result in adverse outcomes and psychological distress, such as excessive spending, sexual encounters, substance use, shoplifting, reckless driving or binge eating.

Recurring suicidal threats or non-suicidal self-injurious behavior, such as cutting or burning one’s self.

Unstable, intense personal relationships, sometimes alternating between “all good,” idealization, and “all bad,” devaluation.

Persistent uncertainty about self-image, long-term goals, friendships and values.

Chronic boredom or feelings of emptiness.

Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment.

[Rose Tiger]

BPD is treatable.  NPD is not.  NPD is closer to sociopath.  Sociopaths are total brain stem thinkers, no higher level emotions.  Scary stuff.

[Rockylove]

Thank you, Rose.  I feel much better now.  I think the article I mentioned is a bit misleading or I just read too much into it.  From the NPD criteria you listed, he is most definitely NOT NPD.  Whew!  Some information out there is just scary!

[KellyO]

My ex-bf is definitely more NPD than BPD. This is how I know it:

He is super-competitive. He needs to win, at any cost. If he can't win, he will say "no", so he does not have to take the risk of loosing and looking something else than superior! He is arrogant. He is cocky. He is manipulative, and it is intentional. He does not deny it, because he is actually proud of it. He has deep rooted belief that he is somehow better than others. He has balloon-ego: grandious image of himself. Inside he is tiny and weak. He is aware of that, but keeps living out of his balloon-ego, because he thinks it gives him the prize, whatever it is.

I have seen him enjoying inflicting emotional pain in me. He is a coward. He seeks attention, at any cost. He enjoys when people notice him. He has this "silent and strong man" -act that really discusts me now. With older women he is a spoiled little boy and older women love it. He is alcoholic and has nothing else to show but dept (= drinking dept, 70 000 €), but he thinks he still is better than any other man in this planet. He is very envious, but denies it. He never gives anyone any credit about anything, unless giving it will benefit him somehow, read: butt licking. So he can tell how wonderful his female-boss is, and has good relations with her, so he can go and badmouth his collegues to her, and manipulate her too to give him what he wants. I really hope that woman will some day see the light too.

He has really said to me when he raged at me that he is special and extraordinary when compared to other people (yes, he is specially disordered I might add now). Empathy? For himself, tons of. For others? When it serves him. Exploits others? Definitely. He has no build-in responsibility of ANYthing, but he is so clever in this that often people don't even know they are exploited. I think it is because he is so used to someone else always coming and cleaning up the mess he leaves behind him. Someone always saves him. I wish he would not have so many enablers.

He is selfish in such magnitude  I have no words to describe it. It is full-blown, narsistic egocentricy.

This was only one small portion of the personality of the man I think is very NPD. I think his BPD-traits come more from his ADHD, that makes him impulsive and unable to think ahead of him... . on the other hand, if his agenda is to manipulate someone to something, he thinks very well. Hm.

It took me long to see he is not so much BPD, because I did not want to believe how intentional many of his acts are and were. But he is much more concious about himself than many other I have been reading about here. He knows what he is doing. He wants to win, at any cost. At his worst he is a tyrant and thinks that God is peanuts compared to him. At his best he is... . I don't really know, because it is an act, and must be different with every person.

[sm15000]

Rockylove, I can't know exactly what went on in my ex's head but I can identify with some of both. . .I saw the NPD more obviously when dysregulating or to avoid shame

NPD criteria:

Is grandiose in evaluation of self without demostrating superior achievements

Concentrates on fantasies of great success, influence, intelligence, beauty or perfect love

I think my ex has some fantasies of perfect love and intelligence

Believes in own "specialness" and expects to associate with high prestiage people or institutions

Some of this but not in a material way - more association with critically acclaimed music, culture

Demands to be overly admired

Feels entitled to special treatment and to have demands acceded to

Exploits others to achieve own ends

Lacks empathy for others

When dysregulating, yes and overall I'm not sure how 'real' his empathy is

Frequently envious of others or assumes others are envious of him or her

Sometimes

Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior[8]Again, sometimes yes

BPD criteria:

Marked mood swings with periods of intense depressed mood, irritability and/or anxiety lasting a few hours to a few days (but not in the context of a full-blown episode of major depressive disorder or bipolar disorder).

Inappropriate, intense or uncontrollable anger.

When dysregulating yes. . .we didn't live together so I never saw this but I think his family did

Impulsive behaviors that result in adverse outcomes and psychological distress, such as excessive spending, sexual encounters, substance use, shoplifting, reckless driving or binge eating.

When dysregulating - sexual encounters, substance use, reckless driving yes

Recurring suicidal threats or non-suicidal self-injurious behavior, such as cutting or burning one’s self.

Unstable, intense personal relationships, sometimes alternating between “all good,” idealization, and “all bad,” devaluation.

Yes

Persistent uncertainty about self-image, long-term goals, friendships and values.

Chronic boredom or feelings of emptiness.

Yes, when dysregulating

Frantic efforts to avoid abandonment.

Yes, when dysregulating

[Grey Kitty]

People can have a mix of BPD and NPD traits as well.

In addition to the good info you got, we have a workshop on the topic... .

What is the relationship between BPD and narcissism (NPD)?

[Rockylove]

I'm appreciating all the input here.  I'm really trying to figure things out.  I really don't believe that my bf;s intent is to harm.  I may be delusional.  I never really want to think that someone is evil and to find the reason that they may be lashing out. 

The article states:   Narcissists say and do things, subtle or obvious, that make you feel less smart, less accomplished, less competent. It's as if they're saying, "I don't want to feel this insecure and small; here, you take the feelings."   

That seems like a BPD trait with malice and forethought.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.  When someone is hurting and feeling so small themselves that they want someone to hurt with them, is it intentional or a way of protecting themselves? 

[Murbay]

My T shocked me by saying my ex was both. In a lot of ways I do see both but I still don't feel much of what she did was with intent, rather it was her feeling insecure and wanting someone to hurt with her. However, the pattern of rages did come after her behaviour and the more I reflect, much of it was out of shame.

The NPD side was her fantasies of influence and perfect love and she did see herself above anybody in authority and had no issues in shouting them down. She had a great sense of entitlement that often made people feel nervous to be around her, including me.

She saw herself as selfless and flawless and would often tell people that she is very different because she is so selfless. She did do a lot for others but with the expectation of praise or some other personal gain. If she didn't get it, those people then became the enemy and she set out to destroy them or make their lives miserable.

It started when my ex tried to convince me I had both and the T said at the time that is was a mirrored projection of herself. His opinion of the 3 sessions he had with her was that she is one of the most selfish people he has come across and she is completely devoid of all empathy. He did abandon her and turned his focus on helping me because he said to help her would mean rewiring 32 years of her life. His words in the last session I had with him was that the only person she would be comfortable in a relationship is her own reflection. She tried to reach out to him in April but he refused to respond because she isn't at a place where she wants to get help, only to cause more destruction and blame others.

Her ability to control and manipulate but then make you feel the guilt was astonishing. Yet, I still feel the hooks in me and I do still love her, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[KellyO]

One member said this to me: as he sees it, BPD wants to serve and tries to submit to you (even when you might feel it is not the case, it is still there and you can see it), NPD wants you to serve him, and wants people to submit to him. That is my ex-bf.

Difference between BPD and NPD rage: BPD (as I have understood it here) dysregulates, dissosiates and  can't really control themselves in those situtations. NPD uses rage as a tool. They are in control of it, all the time, and if needed, they can cut it off in the minute and be like nothing ever happened. They have learned early that rage is a great tool of manipulation. NPD likes people being scared of them, it makes people more easy to control, and it gives them feeling of being powerful.

I have seen my ex-bf raging in both ways. He has been genuinely dissosiated and dysregulated, and I can see the abandoment-issues. Our relationship was on the edge every minute because he either waited me for abandoning him or was going to abandon me. But I have no doubts that he is MORE NPD than BPD.

NPD is about 100% selfishness, no empathy for others (that does not stop my ex-bf working with children), being in absolute control, it is about power, it is a about winning! NPD never looses. It just can't happen. If they have to destroy your whole life, career and marriage to win over you, they will.

Sometimes they get what they asked for, and still they don't learn: years ago my ex-bf was into some woman. Woman chose another man over him. He had told to their friends that the woman slept with him too. Word went to womans current bf. Bf got angry, woman had been seeing two guys at same time! Woman said my ex-bf raped her (he did not, he couldn't do it, it is physically impossible so I believe him in this), and that leaded 5 men beating him to hospital. Did he learn anything about that? Nope! It is his nro.1 reason to pity-party, and he uses this story as means to get sympathy. I have not heard him once saying he did something wrong too. Of course it is very wrong to beat someone to hospital! But, the lesson of this story is that the woman was like him, selfish and ready to lie no matter conceguenses.  He spread rumours because he wanted to revenge to that woman, and it turned against him. He lerned NOUGHT from it.

[Rockylove]

Very interesting, Murbay and KellyO.  I do see some cross over at times in my bf, but not in the ways you two have shared.  He has said on more than one occasion that he's selfish, but I really don't see him that way.  The most selfish thing he said he'd done, I chalked up to being a silly child (it happened when he was 10 or 11 years old) and he's been harboring that feeling since.  Overall, he's really quite generous and is almost more codependent in his attempts to care for other's needs before his own.  Of course he then regrets having done so much, but that's the nature of the beast! 

What I quoted from the article was rather confusing to me.  I know that my bf feels that he's very unaccomplished and he feels badly whenever I get kudos for what I've done.  His facial expression  changes when someone acknowledges my work and I can almost see the pain in his eyes.  He will at times downplay my accomplishments and if he rages, he'll pick on one aspect of my being that he knows makes me feel small and helpless, but other times he praises my efforts.  I'd come to expect that will be the case whenever he's feeling particularly worthless.  Fact is that he DOES try to make me feel small and worthless when he's feeling that way, but not all the time.  Maybe that's the difference?

[Rose Tiger]

A lot of people are passive/aggressive, BPD, NPD and a lot of other folks.  They will stick the knife in silently to make themselves feel superior.  This was a major tool of ex, of my family of origin and lately, a couple of coworkers.  I hate hate hate this dysfunctional coping mechanism.  I got very sensitive to how people feel growing up, it was a safety mechanism.  If I entered a room and felt unsafe, I'd get the heck out of there.  I am very sensitive to the digs that come my way, I wish I wasn't.

For example, I was interviewing for a job at my work.  My boss knew about it and the lead, you don't do things like that on the sly so I told them I was applying for it and they were 'supportive'.  The day of the interview, they called me in to tell me about another employee that was also applying, someone hirer up the chain and more likely to get the position.  This was right before my interview.  It totally deflated me.  I didn't do well at all.  It was so like my FOO, to take a person down when they were trying to better themselves. 

I was with a classic NPD.  I was meeting his long time friends and was nervous, wanted to make a good impression.  They asked about my job, I'm a financial analyst.  I started telling them about it and NPD cut me off saying, oh she is only a bean counter.  They all laughed.  What a jerk.  It was a matter of the focus not being on him and he was having none of that.

[KellyO]

@Rockylove: you will see some crossover, because both disorders are from same cluster-B disorders. They share some symptoms, you can easaly find them by Googling. I consider Borderline to be only one that can be really cured, don't know about Histrionics though... . maybe they are often mixed to BPD?

If  you think your bf is not malicious (and you know him well), I don't think he is NPD. NPD wants to crush you like a worm. He is competitive to extreme, and he wants to win. He really wants to win. You would be in constant competiton without knowing how you got there to begin with.  My ex begin to judge me and tell me all 1000 ways I'm faulty right from the beginning. I must have been pretty messed up myself to think I actually have to take it because we were so much in LOVE!

[charred]

The differences were addressed pretty well... . the comment BPD is treatable, NPD is not... . well, YMMV.

IF someone wants treatment with BPD... . its possible to treat it and possible to have a good outcome, but the vast majority of pwBPD blame all problems on others and will not seek treatment, those that do often turn on their T as they become close to them and go through the idealizing, clinging, hating phases with them. It is common enough most T's don't want pwBPD as clients.

NPD ... . very similar in many ways, my dad is a malevolent NPD. The best explanation of an NPD person I have ever read, and it is excellent, is "What makes a Narcissist Tick", it is a free pdf book, written not by a T, but by someone that lived with an NPD person.

www.escapeabuse.com/NPD.pdf‎

It won't clarify BPD, but if you think maybe NPD, you will have great information on that.

I thought I could be NPD... . as I used to get in to such arguments with my pwBPD, and always seemed to be taking an NPD like role... . so checked in to the NPD boards... . (also had test and went to a T)... . they are not like bpdfamily.com/bpdfamily  there is a malevolent quality to everything that makes it unpleasant for me, maybe it just reminded me of my dad (we have been estranged for 13 yrs now... . best 13 of my life.) So my advice... . the bpdfamily.com boards are fantastic, active and genuinely nice/understanding/helpful, so you are in the right place if that is the issue. The NPD file I pointed you too, will clarify NPD to such a degree you will know if that is what you are dealing with, and I came to the conclusion personally that nothing short of ending my r/s with my dad was adequate to deal with his problems.

Good luck,

Both of those PD's are tough on people that love them.

[waverider]

The hardest thing about pure NPD is that it is extremely difficult for them to even acknowledge they have a problem. It is the huge sense of entitlement that is obviously different as opposed to the victim mentality.

Confidence in BPD is often just a facade whereas in NPD they believe it to the core. Longer term planning and true manipulation is a bigger feature, rather than just survival behavior

They do tend to be higher functioning as obtaining status and dominance is a bigger driving factor. Sometimes harder to spot as they can be somewhat more stable than BPD, which you could say is more knee jerk defensive behavior.

These are only general observations as all individuals are different and many display both

[waverider]

pwNPDs can be bullet proof against the emotional games of a pwBPD as they simply dont care, and are not swayed by victim role playing. The victim is simply discarded as of being no further value.

BUT pwNPDs dont pull off the idealization role as well as the pwBPD so you dont get sucked in the same. A pwBPD has close intense RS's with few acquaintances, a pwNPD struggles with close RS but can have huge acquaintance/networks

[MaybeSo]

Keep in mind the DSM IV is for diagnosing a severe disorder.

All of us have personality features and styles; all of us can at times display with borderline or narcisstic styles of relating. Most of us do not qualify for a diagnostic disorder. In many cases our partners are not disordered enough to warrant a diagnosis, either... . though certainly some are.

No one is a cookie cutter BPD, NPD, Histrionic... .

I think of it as flavors.

I certainly have some borderline and narcisstic and codependent flavors that show up in my

style of relating especially if I'm stressed or triggered. That makes sense to me now because

I had caregivers with some strong features along these lines, so I was modeled and

experienced that style of coping growing up and adopted some of those flavors myself.

I do not qualify for a PD because I can learn from experience, can see myself, and operate

with a significant range of flexibility in my dealings with the world despite certain flavors I

carry and I behave in socially and culturally acceptable ways.  I do not see all problems as a

nail requiring a hammer, but a serious personality disorder does!  PD at a clinical level is

striking in it's lack of flexibility... . it's single minded rigidity of running the same script

repeatedly no matter what the situation almost looks And feels "dumb" in practice... . even

though the person may be very intelligent and

accomplished in an area of life, it can feel like there is a real significant cognitive deficit but

the afflicted individual isn't aware of it. Jodie Arias is a perfect example; she clearly has no

idea how totally incongruent and shockingly inappropriate she comes off as to others. She is

smart and attractive... . but comes off as cold and almost autistic in understanding human

emotional response and social expectations.

People are usually a variety of flavors with each flavor varying in intensity from hardly

noticeable to very pronounced.

I don't think my ex would qualify for a diagnosis but has some borderline and

Narc features, throw in some codepenence and OCD PD features,  too. He is a human being.

 He runs his life pretty well despite a fair amount of rigidity in his thinking. He breaks no laws.  He can self reflect. He makes changes and he learns from experience. He may drive a

lover a little  crazy... . and has attachment issues, but those things are not against the law,

and society expects adults to make their own choices re: romantic partners. He has been in therapy for 8 years, he has become more flexible.

I see BPD as I will kill myself to keep abandonment fears at bay, and NPD as I will kill you if necessary  (metaphorically) to keep abandonment fears at bay (or ego needs) met.

One fools themselves that they don't need anyone and are above everyone (NPD disordered thought/belief) The other mistakenly assumes they will die like an abandoned infant in the trash at the slightest hint of a break in connection (BPD disordered thought/belief). Neither belief/thought is accurate or healthy. These two often find eachother and click into their distorted belief systems in a way that works but is also unhealthy and disturbing. A person can have both flavors, and couples can switch their  roles back and forth,  too.

We are all incredibly complex.

[Murbay]

That is why it was so difficult to read my ex because she displays both traits perfectly. My T is really good in the sense that everything he does and says is for a reason. The best example I can give of this was in one of the joint sessions we had. She had done well to charm and hide behind her real side and he started a random and calming conversation but with a little ego massage. She couldn't resist and the real self came out explaining how all of her colleagues were incompetent and useless and that the world couldn't possibly function without her. He got her to display that side without her ever realising. I still also firmly believe he didn't respond back to her in April on purpose to see which way her reaction would go. He said it is near impossible to help her but he refused to be drawn in and took the brunt of a few rages.

As for her abandonment issues, it worked two-fold. She was desperate to hold on to anything (32 year old woman who still lives with her parents to ease the abandonment issues) If her parents got mad at her, you would see the childish tantrum of kicking objects, feet stamping and storming off to the bedroom, complete with door slam. It destroyed her world and she would sit crying in her bedroom about how nobody cares and the world would be better off without her.

However, refuse to give in to that and you get painted black. She then sets out to destroy everything in your life such as what I mentioned earlier, false accusations of rape against one ex, false allegations of stalking against me, even though I'm not even in the same country, taking colleagues to a tribunal because she didn't like something they said about her and then taking her boss because he stood by the colleagues.

She is a very dangerous and destructive woman but she still has hooks in me. I no longer think I can save her but I really hope for the day she wakes up and has the realisation that everything that goes wrong in her life isn't the fault of other people. She doesn't see she has a problem, it's the world that has a problem with her.

[MaybeSo]

The wish is understandable but unrealistic.

It is not possible to wake up from a personality disorder.

It is possible with time and hard work to modify or manage a personality disorder to alleviate or lessen disruptive symptoms,  and some can work on restructuring personality with even more time and dedicated hard work. But we are who we are.

That would be like you waking up from being you... . your brain, your wiring, your perceptions, core beliefs, core defense structures, years of biology, environment and personal experience mixed up with whatever strengths and weaknesses your genetic loading gave you as a unique individual.

Most of us without a dx of PD find changing our own behavior and responses very, very tuff to do. We presumably have more of the required raw material with which to change, and it's still incredibly hard.

[waverider]

The wish is understandable but unrealistic.

It is not possible to wake up from a personality disorder.

It is possible with time and hard work to modify or manage a personality disorder to alleviate or lessen disruptive symptoms,  and some can work on restructuring personality with even more time and dedicated hard work. But we are who we are.

That would be like you waking up from being you... . your brain, your wiring, your perceptions, core beliefs, core defense structures, years of biology, environment and personal experience mixed up with whatever strengths and weaknesses your genetic loading gave you as a unique individual.

Most of us without a dx of PD find changing our own behavior and responses very, very tuff to do. We presumably have more of the required raw material with which to change, and it's still incredibly hard.

This is why a non partner needs to focus all their energy on how they can change their own way of behaving and thinking to lessen the unnecessarily triggering and inflaming of the disorder. To work on minimizing the damage this behavior can do to them when it occurs.

It is possible to have a happy, even if dysfunctional, life with a pwBPD with just the regular doses of frustration even regular RS's have. It is not possible for you to "cure" them, or contain them.

Boundaries are mean to be your castle walls, they are not meant to be their prison walls.

[sm15000]

No one is a cookie cutter BPD, NPD, Histrionic... .

Rockylove,

It has been 2 years since I split with my ex, and although I found this board because I knew 'something was wrong' I've never thought my ex was pure BPD. . .he's far too stable in his moods for long periods when all is good.  The thought of him being NPD scared me to death too but when I read information on this, I knew I couldn't have been dealing with a malignant narcissist.

I do worry about his levels of empathy though - and am not sure if what I thought was genuine, is learnt. . .on reflection I saw 'strange' reactions occasionally over the years of cases where he didn't have a 'script' so to speak - for example:

Once I fainted while we were out at a bar. . .when coming around there were a number of strangers talking to me up close, trying to bring me around - he was standing back with a 'I don't know how to react' look on his face while a man was calling at him 'mate, come and talk to her'.

Another time, my friend's brother had been found dead - overdose.  She has been through a lot and as I was telling him I got a bit teary. . .he was looking at me dumbfounded, searching for 'how' to react.

When he gets dysregulated, it is severely impaired and what really unnerved me was the 'flavour' as Maybeso says of anti-social behaviour that appeared - especially towards his entitlement in relationships and towards women - as in they don't control him