Good article in Psych Today worth reading

[Vivgood]

about "highly sensitive" people, with some nuggets of actual science

if you can't cut and paste the link and want to read it, let me know and  I'll post the article.


www.psychologytoday.com/collections/201305/sensitive-souls/sense-and-sensitivity


vivgood

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[griz]

Such a great article.  I see some of this highly sensitive basis in both myself and my girls.  I cannot stand to have people in my space. When someone invades my space, whether it be trying to look over my shoulder when I am reading or at my computer or just physically getting to close I become extremely anxious.  I have no problem when it is appropriate or being intimate it is just a space issue when it is not wanted and I have always found this extremely difficult to the point of becoming physically uncomfortable.  When my older daughter was in kindergarten she would be fine in school but had a terrible time at dismissal.  We could not figure it out.  The principal at the time suggested that her teacher ask her to help at the end of the day tidying up the room and let her leave a little after dismissal.  He thought the chaos of dismissal, lots of children and parents in the lobby and the volume might be the culprit.  Worked like a charm.  They actually had us have her hearing tested for something called, "beyond the threshold" which is a sensitivity to loud sounds.  She was found to have extreme sensitivity to noise and to this day she will often turn down the TV or radio when she enters a room. 

DD definitely seems to be much more sensitive to stimuli of multiple sources.  Loud people, very temperature sensitive and others emotions, especially negative emotions.  I mentioned recently in a post that she has been struggling lately with the fact that her sister is going through a very hard time emotionally with a new physical diagnosis. She confided in me that she becomes extremely anxious when her sister cries or is upset to the point where she doesn't know what to do.  It makes her feel badly because she mostly will just leave the room because she struggles with trying to comfort her.

I can't imagine how this must be for our kids.  My space issue may sound ridiculous but I have actually gotten up from my desk at work when someone decided to innocently lean over my shoulder to look at something I am working on on my computer screen.  I usually mask it with saying something like, why don't you sit down so you can see it better but the truth is I actually become physically panicky.  My palms sweat, my heart races and my breathing becomes difficult.  I can't imagine what it must be like for HSP who have so many triggers.  I loved the suggestions also about realizing how emotionally challenging life can be and things that can help.

Thanks VIV... . so much to think about.

Griz

[vivekananda]

Hi Vivgood (a gooder version of me?  )

I have missed you around. I read that article and it describes me... . well a fair bit. I am so noise sensitive, smell sensitive - maybe other stuff too but I have become desensitised about a lot of stuff. My own big issue is hearing a baby cry. I was ok enough before dd was born, but when she was born I couldn't bear to hear her or any other baby cry. A toddler crying was an issue though not as much. Today dd is 32 and I still have problems (though not so much). I get anxious to the enth degree and must do whatever I have to, to stop the baby crying (in the nicest way possible) or I have to immediately leave.

Of course being sensitive has also meant a predisposition to depression. I am thankful I now know how to prevent that.

It's not being sensitive that is the problem I think, but how we prevent and respond to whatever triggers us.

ta,

Viv (bad  )

[Vivgood]

a gooder version of me?

MOST unlikely! but I like the "vivbad" LOL 

I am perpetually cold, but that may be an age/body-fat thing, not sensitivity per se. I LOATHE casual hugging, but that is an Aspy thing. As a kid I was super, hyper-sensitive to taste! plain noodles and white bread only for me! Tastes and textures literally made me gag and throw up.

I remember being hyper-sensitive to rejection/criticism... . but I ditched that early with tx and now I'm as sensitive to others' opinions as a brick.

I do seem to hear "more", I dunno, more differences in tone?, slighter variations? than other people, and I hyper-differentiate color- not unrelated to my synesthesia, another autism-spectrum thang.

I've been working with a neurobiology group for the last 4 years and I've become completely fascinated by the brain! The unbelievably complex and individualized system! We are learning so much so rapidly at this point in time, its very exciting isn't it?


vivgood

[Free One]

I cannot stand to have people in my space. When someone invades my space, whether it be trying to look over my shoulder when I am reading or at my computer or just physically getting to close I become extremely anxious.  I have no problem when it is appropriate or being intimate it is just a space issue when it is not wanted and I have always found this extremely difficult to the point of becoming physically uncomfortable. 

I understand this! In particular, I can not stand things put up near my face.

I related a lot to this article, especially the being told to "toughen up", like there is something wrong with me for being sensitive. I'm tired of hearing I just need to change the way I think about things. I'm sensitive. And that's ok!

[griz]

Thank you for the validation freeone.  I have always been most embarassed by my reaction to people invading my space.  There have been times that people who are aware of it will poke fun at me for it. 

Griz

[twojaybirds]

what a great read.  I am so in this article as is so many others.

[vivekananda]

I've been working with a neurobiology group for the last 4 years and I've become completely fascinated by the brain! The unbelievably complex and individualized system! We are learning so much so rapidly at this point in time, its very exciting isn't it?

vivgood

Yes it is exciting times. Stuff on the news today about the 'new' brain cells growing out of the hypocampus hang around for a long time. Tests measuring radioactivity in the cells, thanks to some nuclear explosion somewhere, can show a before and after date for cells based on the time of the explosion. Now, new cells aren't neural pathways ... . or are there new cells in new neural pathways? hmmm.

viv, I am fascinated. Can you tell us about your neurobiology group? Can you share any titbits, they may help us understand further?

Vivek    

[Vivgood]

Can you tell us about your neurobiology group? Can you share any titbits, they may help us understand further?

I'd love to babble on about it, i think its so interesting, but specifics might identify and I don't want to do that on a public forum. Here's what I will say, and you can PM me if you want more info:

we work with a particular patient population, not with BPD, but other issues. However, the behavior is identical in many ways, and the fMRI results look similar to BPD studies. Seeing the changes our folks make, using medication and CBT, really reinforces for me that this is a treatable illness, and grounded in neurobiology... . it also has impressed upon me how amazingly complex the brain-mind-emotion system is, and how ridiculously little we understand. But one can SEE changes in behavior and changes in brain function. This sh!t works. How cool is that?  I  am beginning to believe that the source of the problems may be surprisingly global- aberrencies in the communication between amygdalae and prefrontal cortex-but the "phenotype" is surprisingly individual.

I am not a neurobiologist myself, BTW; I'm  mol bio & stats, I'm just lucky enough to work with these awesome neuro/psych peeps!



vivgood

[qcarolr]

vivgood - I am entranced by all the awesome neuroscience I have been reading about. Want to reprogram my DD27 if she would cooperate!

On the HSP side - my T met gd7 last year when I could not get childcare and took her with me. He suggested I get the book "the highly sensitive child" by Elaine Aron. It was great for me, and has helped me understand her. Lot of very practical suggestions for teaching her to take pride in being in her 20% and how to cope with the other 80%. She also has a book for adults.

I see myself as an HSP with all the biological dysfunctions listed in the article -- my adrenal system is in way overload. I also am using most of the strategies listed in article to make my life better. I would love to get off some of my meds - for chrons and for bipolar II. Working with a great new T that seems to get me - what I need for myself.

My dh is a 'closet' HSP. When we got psych evals to adopt the T told him he had an awesome sensitive side he supressed as a guy and maybe someday he would be able to bring it out. I can see this happening in the past couple years in coping with DD27 and gd7. He is finally coming into his own at 62! Having a new boss with compassion and that communicates with him, treats him with respect and like an equal has been invigorating for this side of him too -- he works with elderly population and this is fulfilling too.

So much of what I have learned here to help me with my BPD DD has also helped me help myself. Accept myself as I am just a I try to accept her as she is.

thanks for sharing this article. And your excitment with neuroscience and new treatments that will come leading to better recovery.

[vivekananda]

so Viv, some qtns you may have trouble answering... . but it's like walking in the dark, I don't know how to ask for what I would like to know... .

If someone was being treated for anxiety, how would their treatment be different if they were being treated for ADHD? I suppose I'm asking if anxiety shows up markedly different to ADHD on the screen. Or, can you see the difference between anxiety and depression? When you do it, are you treating the 'symptoms' of a disorder or the disorder, and how can you tell the difference? Is there a difference?

How do you tailor the NBF treatment to suit different symptoms? Is the treatment 'serious' all the time, or is it like playing a computer game?

Finally, do you know of any research on NBF and BPD? Or any PD?

Viv you can babble away to your hearts content, I am so interested in learning about this stuff.

cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[qcarolr]

This thread is on the same general topic. How can we get these together on one place -- this is SO IMPORTANT. I posted some things I was reading online last night.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=202562.0  "Need to remember to be constantly validating"


qcr  

[MammaMia]

Viv

Thank you for this link.  I definitely see myself in it, and interestingly, I also see my son who

is diagnosed wBPD.   He is highly sensitive to bright light, loud sounds, color, music, etc.  He is very intelligent and artistic.  I never really thought about myself as fitting the same profile, but I do.

We are both very sensitive to our environment and the feelings/moods of others.  We love quiet and privacy.  Yes, I suffer from depression as did my mother whose behavior was similar.

Many things to think about. 

[Vivgood]

Finally, do you know of any research on NBF and BPD? Or any PD?

Viv, I have a paper on the subject, but... . I'm suspicious of the source. I am unfamiliar with the journal, the writing is not in a style generally acceptable for peer-reviewed journals, and the authors are from an oddly-named facility in Turkey (not a region known for outstanding biomedical research). It is interesting, but the thing rather smacks of low-rent CAM (Complementary and Alternative Medicine). I don't reject CAM out-of-hand, but I want to see rigorous methodology there as I would with any study.

I just started looking for info on NBF today- I had not heard about it until it was mentioned here!

can you see the difference between anxiety and depression?

Much data are available (van Tol et al did a solid study last year published in Biological Psychiatry). To my knowledge, these finer differences have been found in subjects upon fMRI- the differences involve differential activation in our familiar friends the anterior and posterior cingulates and the prefrontal cortex, and portions of the amygdalae. I am VERY cautious about fMRI data. The studies tend to be small due to expense and the need for specialized training. The data also have to undergo several complicated, subjective cleaning steps before it can be analyzed, and the analysis should be done by someone with fMRI experience (eg. not me  ). As data accumulate, there will be at some point be a well-done meta-analysis which should yield  more robust conclusions as to the relationship between brain activation and Axis I/Axis II disorders. In my opinion, we aren't there yet. Won't be long, tho, the field is intensely dynamic.


fMRI, BTW, does not treat disease. Its an imaging method. They stick you in an MRI (similar to a very noisy coffin) and have you perform "tasks", like look at a picture of a mushroom... . and then a picture of a car crash, and see if the areas of the brain which indicate activity are different when looking at each picture. Or some such, you don't actually "do" anything active.

you can babble away to your hearts content

A dangerous thing to say to someone on the autism spectrum!

vivgood

[vivekananda]

it's that meta analysis I am interested in.

Can you explain what the phrase means? Easily enough so a non statistical genius like me can understand (cf a statistical genius that you are  )

yes please babble, I can whip you into line if you get obsessive 

Vivek    

[Vivgood]

meta analysis: a way of combining results from multiple studies of the same outcome-of-interest. Generally in order to determine the effectiveness of a treatment across studies, but also used to compare, contrast and combine studies to find interesting relationships. Differences between trials in terms of how they are designed and how outcomes are measured make them not necessarily directly comparable. So if you have 10 trials asking the question "is there a difference in which areas light up in the brain between depressed people and non-depressed people?", but each trial was run in a different MRI center, with different populations, and the data cleaned by different methods using different software, etc, meta analysis would give you a common measure of  "effect size" for each trial so that they could be combined to arrive at an overall effect size (which would indicate statistically significant differences exist across studies... . or not), and allow you to identify other factors which might influence effect size (maybe the brain activation differences are stronger in women than men).

"analysis" in the purest sense, would be looking at how injection with drug X effects lab values, controlling for all other variables (which is impossible). "meta" is because not only are you not controlling for many sources of bias, but you aren't even looking at direct effects (drug on blood); you are looking at drug on blood converted to "effect size".

Does that make some semblance of sense?

I can whip you into line if you get obsessive 

Heheh! I shall watch my Ps and Qs


vivgood

[vivekananda]

I found the study from Turkey. It seems to relate to antisocial PD and draws on 13 case studies. There was no concurrent psychotherapy. 12 subjects had significant improvement. I wonder if your hesitation about the language etc of the report may not be a 'cultural' difference.

Anyway, I would think that neurofeedback with concurrent psycho therapy based on 'mindfulness' would be preferable.

I found this journal article on Empathy, which references BPD: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2206036/

It concludes to suggest that research with NFB and BPD, for example, will be limited because the cost of the research precludes studying the situational variables:

"Finally, one of the challenges for a social neuroscience approach to empathy and its disorders is the difficulty of taking into account situational variables. To provide interpretable data, neuroscience experiments require intra-individual comparisons and repeated-measures designs. To be financially feasible, they require small samples. These conditions limit opportunities to study the effects of potentially important situational variables. This is but one example of the perennial challenge objective science faces in the attempt to understand human subjectivity in all its richness and complexity"

I only speed read the report because it is so dense. But I did meet a new word 

Alexithymia refers to deficiencies in understanding, processing, or describing emotions in the self. Since awareness of emotional states in the self is a prerequisite to recognizing such states in others, alexithymia should involve impairment in empathy. Although alexithymia is not a diagnostic disorder, it is a personal trait that is prevalent in broad psychiatric and psychosomatic spectrums, which are characterized by deficits in empathy, such as autistic spectrum disorder, schizophrenia, borderline, narcissistic and psychopathic personality disorders. Guttman et al. also showed that alexithymia scale is correlated with empathy scale using borderline personality population.

I think to understand all this I would need to return to uni... . and do science and stats! (Yuk!)

Thanks for the explanation of meta analysis. yes it helps makes sense.

phew   Vivek

[qcarolr]

There is such an overwhelming pool of data out there today. So glad there are those scientist types that can pull it together for me - an intelligent knowledge surfer, skimming the surface so I don't drown. But having a really good ride for now.

qcr  

[Vivgood]

Love the reference on alexithymia, thanks!


that certainly connects BPD and AS for me; I usually see the 2 as very dissimilar.


vivgood

[vivekananda]

AS = autism spectrum?

The similarities between BPD, PTSD (did you know they have a new condition called complex PTSD hmmm I wonder if the PTSD peeps are trying to claim the BPDs in their therapy approach)*, bi polar, Autism, ADHD, then more physical things like Hyper Sensitivity, conditions like micro neuralgia, chronic fatigue and on and on. It sort of reminds me of cancer: lung, breast, throat, blood, bone... . same sort of thing but different.

I read a comment in late last years New Scientist that said they didn't adopt the suggested guidelines for the new DSM description of BPD, because it would be too difficult for GPs to interpret. I reckon that is an 'American' concern with the over prescribing of drugs, that would affect other countries so much... . I think they thought it would embrace too many people... . well, sometimes I wonder... . how many undiagnosed BPD peeps are there?

Did you read that article more carefully than I did? Did you learn anything? I think to understand it I would need to really concentrate very hard not easy to do in my dotage 

cheers,

Vivek

* I have a special interest because my dd is diagnosed PTSD due to a lifetime abuse by me... . yeh it doesn't hurt anymore but it sticks in my throat.

[Vivgood]

AS=autism spectrum. DSM IV identified Aspergers seperately from AS, DSM V is calling the whole thing AS... . its primarily a political thing, tho it has serious implications for services funding. Me, I am fine with being "aspy" and fine with being "on the AS".

I did know about complex PTSD! My personal gestalt is that PTSD is a top-down disorder and BPD is a bottom-up disorder. That is, a neurologically and biochemically normal person develops PTSD from environmental events which thus changes their neurobiology: BPD starts out as neurological/biochemical aberrancies which are triggered by environmental cues to produce maladaptive behavior labelled BPD.

I read the article, not super carefully! Its a review of current brain imaging studies as they pertain to the concept of empathy, and I am a complete novice on the subject... . and my sad biases make me suspicious of such a "soft" subject; to me, it sounds poorly-defined and insufficiently supported by robust, well-designed studies. More philosophy than science. But that is my math-and-laboratory background speaking. I buy into the global conclusions, not the particulars. At this point.

I have a special interest because my dd is diagnosed PTSD due to a lifetime abuse by me... . yeh it doesn't hurt anymore but it sticks in my throat.

Viv, i hear ya. My BPD sister has been claiming that my (preternaturally nurturing and gentle) parents abused her for years. Of course, it does not prevent her from expecting unlimited support and sacrifice from them. Whats really crazy is how many people and agencies buy into her claims! If she actually had been abused to the extent she claims... . she'd be living in quiet padded room instead of creating unending whirlwinds of psychodrama. Oooy vey iz mir.


vivgood

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Free One]

My personal gestalt is that PTSD is a top-down disorder and BPD is a bottom-up disorder. That is, a neurologically and biochemically normal person develops PTSD from environmental events which thus changes their neurobiology: BPD starts out as neurological/biochemical aberrancies which are triggered by environmental cues to produce maladaptive behavior labelled BPD.

vivgood

Great way to state it! I read an article about PTSD once that described it as a psychiatric injury.

[qcarolr]

I did know about complex PTSD! My personal gestalt is that PTSD is a top-down disorder and BPD is a bottom-up disorder. That is, a neurologically and biochemically normal person develops PTSD from environmental events which thus changes their neurobiology: BPD starts out as neurological/biochemical aberrancies which are triggered by environmental cues to produce maladaptive behavior labelled BPD.

Vivgood - I think this is right on target. There is research about BPD and PTSD (I don't have the cite in my notes) showing the proportions of PTSD linked with BPD. They seem related yet are very different disorders, and deserve very different treatments. A study of 290 BPD patients showed 58% w/PTSD at initial dx; other types of PD 25% w/PTSD at intitial dx; General population 8% with PTSD. This seems significant to me, and perhaps if our kids can accept PTSD as a dx without so much stigma and get treatement based on that, other therapies can come later. I get this info in the book by Russell Meares. "A Dissociation Model of BPD", 2012.

His hypothesis comes from meta-analysis of lots of stuff. (now isn't that a scientific word ). I stopped here in this book - really triggered my PTSD along with my DD27's meltdown that may culminate tomorrow in court. I have about 5 pages of notes from Ch. 7. If there is no interest in this, just skip to the next reply. I will do my best to be brief. This info seems important to this discussion.

My take on this chapter: It compares the research of PTSD and BPD related to dissociation symptoms. It seems more research has been done that includes PTSD. He suggests dissociation as a key to both disorders but with different 'forms'.  Remember, I am a knowledge surfer, not a scholar or scientist.

The two forms of dissociation.

Detachment, which is not a protective defense strategy. Compartmentalization, which is a protective defense strategy.

Detachment is a primary response seen as hyperarousal and disintegration.

Disintegration defined in DSMIV, "disruption of the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of environment"

 

Compartmentalization is a secondary response in the traumatic memory system; bodily experience, movement sequences, fragments of perceptions. Like skin sensations, visual flashes, smells, pains, sounds, words either as triggers or responses to current non-traumatic situations.

Comparing BPD & PTSD:

PTSD often is from distinct event or events.

BPD is from unconscoius traumatic memory system (CNS structure/function) resulting from cumulative perceived traumas taking place developmentally, day after day, when individuao suffers small inflictions of harm (ie. invalidating enviroment suseptibiltiy)

PTSD often has a memory with recuring, intrusive, distressing recollections.

Those with BPD scored higher in dissociation anger and anxiety than those with PTSD. Those with BOTH were the more impaired.

PTSD did not increase BPD symptoms.

Persons with BPD are more prone to develop PTSD from traumatic events as adults [or adolescents- my comment].

This has been seen from war veterans studies

BPD may limit an individual's resources for coping with traumatic event ie. underdeveloped, immature sense of self.

Therapy inherently is a traumatic trigger for pwBPD to increase level of dissociation. Responses of T are vital to stay connected to client. Neutral response is perceived as negative -- need to respond with empathic emotion that matches the client. [validating].

Silence also may trigger dissociation which creates anxiety and shuts down higher levels of brain function.

PwBPD are also sensitive to other CNS effects (other than anxiety) such as brain damage, drugs and alcohol, both internal and external causes that create subtle organic brain changes.

Neuropsych evaluation studies showed pwBPD had poor performance in all six areas evaluated: attention, cognitive flexibility, learning and memory, planning, speed of processing, and visual spatial abilities. [no wonder our kids end up with a full bag of labels by the time they are young adults!}

I am realizing that so many other resources being presented here at bpdfamily.com concur with Meares findings in many ways. I just connected with how he described them.

Vivek  - does the Australian guidelines address any of these issues. I downloaded this to my computer and have not had much time to read, though everything there is valuable I have read.

qcr  

Tramautic brain injury (TBI) can lead to BPD

[Vivgood]

I guess one thing I have trouble with is defining trauma. I totally understand that "trauma" can be a mismatch between infant and parental attachment styles. In terms of BPD triggering events, yes, I will buy that. I do not think that it is the same thing as TRAUMA, which is a universally horrific event such as war, rape, childhood abuse, etc. i think those are qualitatively different events altho obviously there can be overlap. I don't think mismatched parent/child attachment causes PTSD in those not predisposed.

I don't think PTSD causes, de novo, the same brain aberrancies that are linked to BPD. I just don't see real evidence for that in the literature.

I don't know how I feel about calling it "PTSD" in oder to trick a BPD into tx. I understand the impetus and in one sense why would it matter, as long as they get in... . from the long&broad POV, tho, I see it as contributing to the dysfunction. In particular contributing to the alexithymia (thank for my new fav word ), which for BPD is a major (if not THE major) malfunction.

Therapy inherently is a traumatic trigger for pwBPD to increase level of dissociation. Responses of T are vital to stay connected to client. Neutral response is perceived as negative -- need to respond with empathic emotion that matches the client. [validating].

Silence also may trigger dissociation which creates anxiety and shuts down higher levels of brain function.

PwBPD are also sensitive to other CNS effects (other than anxiety) such as brain damage, drugs and alcohol, both internal and external causes that create subtle organic brain changes.

qcarolr, I am SO on-board with all of this. The importance of lifestyle (no drugs, drink, good nutrition, good sleep, on-going anxiety-rdxn measures, avoiding crazy) for BPDs cannot be overstated. DBT and meds alone will not get you all the way there. 


good discussion!

vivgood

[Reality]

qcarolr, I am SO on-board with all of this. The importance of lifestyle (no drugs, drink, good nutrition, good sleep, on-going anxiety-rdxn measures, avoiding crazy) for BPDs cannot be overstated. DBT and meds alone will not get you all the way there. 

good discussion!

vivgood

SO true.  Lifestyle is key.  No drugs, no alcohol, good food, good sleep and tons of exercise for anxiety reduction... . It is impossible to over-emphasize this point, IMHO.  Oh yes!  And a community of compassionate, kind people... . the original DBTers... .

Reality

[Reality]

A question... .

How does detachment (dissociation) relate to my son with BPD so often seeming to be "in his own world", almost like a trance?  He was always a deep thinker... . reminded me of a little Yoda or like Jim Morrison of The Doors.  I know this sounds too subjective, but I am very curious.

The two forms of dissociation.

Detachment, which is not a protective defense strategy. Compartmentalization, which is a protective defense strategy.

Detachment is a primary response seen as hyperarousal and disintegration.

Disintegration defined in DSMIV, "disruption of the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of environment"

Comparing BPD & PTSD:

PTSD often is from distinct event or events.

BPD is from unconscoius traumatic memory system (CNS structure/function) resulting from cumulative perceived traumas taking place developmentally, day after day, when individuao suffers small inflictions of harm (ie. invalidating environment susceptibility)

Reality

[Reality]

Unconscious traumatic memory system... . unconscious... . Are pwBPD living then more  in the unconscious world?  Does the unconscious define them more and more because of the pull of that genetically-predisposed stance?  Is a trance the same as being in the unconscious realm?  Is that why physicality... . food, sleep, exercise... . is so important?  It pulls them into the conscious world out of the other reality, so to speak.

Is it really an unconscious traumatic memory system or an unconscious highly-sensitive memory system?  Is this system the point of inspiration that artists and musicians tap, the muse, the groove?  Is it pathological only when it overdraws the person too far out of the physical world?  Does this explain the eating issues?  Who needs food when you are tripping the unconscious? 

Reality

Sorry about the separate posts. 

[vivekananda]

On my, such a lot of good stuff to absorb... .

Of course the interest in discussion of PTSD and BPD is helpful for me, but I also get impatient when things like 'complex' PTSD is thrown into the mix. I do appreciate your bottom up top down explanation Viv. As I have come to understand the idea of trauma as a prompt for PTSD, it is either a one off type traumatic event which has to include a life threatening experience (eg war, rape, domestic violence etc) or a low level assault on a persons sense of personal security over a long time, eg a life time. So, my dd can believe she has PTSD because of her perceived lifetime of abuse.

The difficulty for her is that she was not abused. And I believe that in the general sense of the use of the word validation, she was a validated girl. But she did not have her emotional life validated the way I have learnt to do it since. I was teaching her how to live to be independent, not creating learning opportunities. And I say I because I felt that was how it was, sadly not a 'we' situation, dh was too busy making his way in the world of work.

Qcr, there is nothing in the Aust'n Clinical Guidelines about NFB or the other diagnoses such as PTSD, except the usual co morbidity references. Nothing about NFB because of the lack of meta analysis. Nothing about other diagnosis because it is about treating BPD only. From memory it does make the point about at risk behaviours (eg drug use etc) needing to be managed before treatment can be effective or something like that.

Now disassociation. I do need to read and re read that stuff. I get confused because there are very precise meanings of words, complex concepts behind them and often the same words can have very different meanings, eg detachment. Different areas of study have different concepts underlying what the word means and then there is our own popular understanding of the word. It takes me a while to absorb these differences and understand them. The two forms of disassociation that Meares proposes sounds very interesting as a way to understand.

Reality, re the unconscious world and pwBPD, I don't think that's a link as you see it... . the muse, the groove, the creative element. I have no way of explaining what I think, but I'll try ... . the idea of disassociation (detachment) as being deep thinking is I think a red herring. From what I understand this is an unconscious response and does not involve 'thinking' which is the domain of the pre frontal cortex. When we are deeply relaxed, we can have inspirations when links between our prefrontal cortex and the more unconscious parts of the brain can freely move. But a state of disassociation is not a state of deep relaxation I believe. It is a description of a mechanism our unconscious brain uses to help us cope with our disordered consciousness. At least, that's how I see it ... . I think ... . Detachment is a primary response seen as hyperarousal and disintegration. Disintegration defined in DSMIV, "disruption of the usually integrated functions of consciousness, memory, identity and perception of environment"

where to from here? So what is the value of this learning for us?

cheers,

Vivek    

[qcarolr]

where to from here? So what is the value of this learning for us?

I need to read chapters 8-16 when I am more grounded. Meares is a scientist so uses lots of big words, tons of cites in parenthses, and new twists and turns and definitions of concepts. He does have a hypothesis for a new treatment protocal for BPD, and has a whole other book about that. I could only afford to get these in digital form on my kindle - so that also makes it harder to study - cross reference - highlight, turn pages, put sticky notes. The digital forms of these tools are a mystery to me yet.

I have experienced the DSMIV version of dissociation over my lfie time. Starting during a remembered single episode of sexual abuse as a young child - see myself from somewhere near the ceiling. Have worked a lot on this in past. Times of stress bring this symptom on. Even can put myself away - or find myself returning from being 'gone'. Think of it as being inside myself somewhere. sometimes with a vague awareness in perceived threatening situation. Sometimes I am unaware of time passing. At 18 in college my roommates asked me to move out - I was too weird. Remember they would say my name, I would look at them, then they would be saying my name again and asking for an answer to a question that I never heard. Even when I tried really hard to stay present, I would be gone. Very scary for me, and fascinating at same time. This got much better after I met dh when 19, married him at 20.

Then infertility came along followed by adoption at 3 weeks of this beautiful girl with a scrambled brain, unkown to us. There were early signs -- she triggered my PTSD that was unkown to me until she was nearly 5 years old. I was not consistently available for her emotional for a while after that. Another letting go - breathe through this one too.

So I would say the meaning for me is mixed depending on what is triggering dissociation -- disconnection from reality. Almost like an epilectic episode at times - though these tests are normal. Interested in anyone else with ideas about this.

qcr

[Reality]

Being in the groove is prescisely non-thinking... . the music and words write themselves... . as Young says, "There is no way you own it."

I find this thread immensely helpful although I don't understand this concept of dissociation and I think it is key to understanding BPD.

I also think that the unconscious plays a huge role in BPD.  I also see the unconscious as having a very friendly role sometimes... .

I think you can trip when dissociating... . it is like a high somehow... . is that what you mean by scary but also fascinating qcaroir?  

Would the dissociative part of BPD explain why they don't go to school, appointments, etc, etc, etc... . they are somewhere else... . ?

I don't know where this is going; however, I would love to hear some thoughts... .

Reality