What do they get out of it.

[laelle]

Ok, im doing well processing all this.

He knew my wants and desires and basically filled those voids for a price... . What was the price?  What did he get out of it?

[Octoberfest]

I'm not sure I totally understand your question, but I will answer assuming you mean:

Why were they in the relationship at all? I.e. they loved you made you feel special, whatever, what did he get out of it?

They got someone to love them.  Their fear of abandonment works for them both ways, in a come here come here come here, get away get away get away sort of fashion.  Their sense of self worth is so non-existent, that without others giving them validation, in their heads, they would cease to exist.  When from your staNPDoint all of your worth as a human being comes from others telling you that you are worth something, of course you are going to latch on to someone and do whatever you can to please them. 

In reference to the fear of abandonment I mentioned earlier, I think they reach a tipping point in relationships.  At the beginning they draw you in as close as you can get, and through mirroring and idealization get you to love them more than anything.  Then a time comes where that love is so great, they may feel unworthy of it and scared that you are getting close enough to see their "real self', which they consider so worthless and ugly that they get ZERO sense of worth from, and it all repeats.

I don't know if I answered your questions... . Really I just walked through some basic BPD stuff that you likely already know.  Could you rephrase or be more specific?

[eniale]

I think they feel they lack power, so seek power over you.  That is probably behind the push/pull behavior -- you are their yo-yo.  And they do want to be loved... . but the conundrum for them is that they want love and fear abandonment, but also fear emotional intimacy.  Imagine the conflict.  Really sad, but you cannot let your feelings of compassion allow them to suck you back in. 

[schwing]

My understanding is that pwBPD are often in a relationship to avoid the depression and the ill-ease they feel when they are alone (i.e., feeling of emptiness, identity disturbances, etc... . ).  Perhaps they feel they are most like a whole person when they are enmeshed with someone.  And it doesn't always have to be a romantic relationship -- any kind of strong connection will give them an anchor, so to speak.  Who they are depends upon whom they are with.  If they are "with" no one, who are they?

I have read of pwBPD, have anxieties like they might suddenly cease to exist which have to do with them interacting with a "false" sense of self as opposed to an authentic sense of self.  Such that even if they are in conflict with someone, this kind of interaction is preferable over none because this interaction is proof that they are exist and are real.

As I see it, it's when they are in this depressed but disconnected state of being that they might have the best opportunity to start to investigate with what is going on with them.  But perhaps they find it too damn scary.  And would prefer to find a new drama/crisis/excitement to avoid facing this.

By being with you, your BPD loved one had an opportunity to feel elated from the infatuation, and the other emotions associated with early pair bonding.  For the shortest of time, he was able to delude himself into thinking that you are not someone who will trigger his disordered feelings because at the beginning there was little true intimacy and familiarity to trigger his disordered feelings.

I would guess that while he was connecting with you, he was only just beginning to disconnect with his prior partner.  He got to idealize you, and fully devalue his prior partner.  In a sense, by being with you, he got to let out all the air out of the overfull balloon that was his previous relationship.  And then start his cycle all over again.

What was the price?  By having external partners to distract him, he never begins to consider his own internal problems.

 

What did he get out it?  He gets to avoid his internal problem.

I think, just like any other human being, they just want to be happy.  But what stands in the way of their happiness are things they cannot face or choose not to face about themselves.

[laelle]

I think I would have had to have a fear of intimacy myself to have gotten involved with someone with an intimacy problem.

In some way would I not have felt more comfortable with the distance rather than an relationship that has intimacy?

Because my need to please or save the disordered vs a health relationship with the ordered?

Im just working these things out in my head.

Maybe I didnt realize that he couldnt until after the idealization phase ended, and then stayed because I was hooked by then.

[tailspin]

Great question and truly insightful responses.

I believe at some base level my ex wished to deflect his early childhood pain onto me in an attempt to be rid of it.  I say this because he only seemed truly happy when I was miserable.  I'm sure mirroring in the beginning did sooth him to a large extent, but he seemed to be pleased with himself whenever I displayed signs of distress, insecurity or neediness.

I'm not sure why, though.  Maybe he believed this is how you get rid of pain; by giving it to someone else.  I think he was much more aware of his mental illness then he ever let me know.  He often seemed calculating in his efforts to hurt me, as if he was guaging in what ways my pain made him feel better, and to determine how far he needed to go with me in order to reach this temporary state of euphoria.

I don't intend to make my ex appear sadistic by saying this, but in retrospect, I believe pain relief was his ultimate goal.  Unfortunately, it came at my expense.

tailspin

[laelle]

So he built me up to relieve his pain, so he could tear me back down again to relieve his pain?

Me trying so hard to please him, gave him many opportunities to tear me down and relieve his pain?

[tailspin]

That is my theory.  Maybe it's part of the magical thinking going on in their head; if I give it to you then I won't have it anymore.  The building us up part was to keep us around; the tearing us apart phase was to make themselves feel better.

This may not have been true for you Iaelle but I really think this is what happened to me.

[laelle]

Kinda of like building a house made of cards and then knocking it down.  Then because you smashed your house made of cards you have to rebuild it.

[tailspin]

Yes, and I also think is the exact behavior they learn from their FOO.  Random reinforcement coupled with unpredictable rages.  This forces us to "try harder" to please and eventually we become conditioned because their behavior is random and unpredictable. 

But this is about them and their endless needs, right?  So I've asked myself... . what need did he have that would create this behavior?  Because to me "what they get out of it" isn't necessarily just about abandonment-trauma that caused their mental illness, but about pain control as a way to manage it.

[confetti]

Kinda of like building a house made of cards and then knocking it down.  Then because you smashed your house made of cards you have to rebuild it.

Wow... . yes. I think that's actually a pretty good example.

"You can look at my house of cards but if you get too close I'll smash it and build it somewhere else (where it'll be appreciated)", maybe.

[LosingIt2]

Is it just me or do a lot of people rush into new relationships to avoid pain and ignore their own flaws? BPD or not. I know plenty of needy people, and it gets old. But I wouldn't say they are BPD. And, there are people who reconnect with an ex after a breakup for one reason or another, vanity most likely.

What's the difference between a non doing this vs someone with BPD?

[Bananas]

Is it just me or do a lot of people rush into new relationships to avoid pain and ignore their own flaws? BPD or not. I know plenty of needy people, and it gets old. But I wouldn't say they are BPD. And, there are people who reconnect with an ex after a breakup for one reason or another, vanity most likely.

What's the difference between a non doing this vs someone with BPD?

I have been broken up with more than a few times by a non and had them get into a new relationship with a new person or ex.  The difference for me was I was treated with respect.  I was broken up with "properly".   There was empathy for my feelings.  There were sincere apologies.  There was compassion, even in the breakup.  And the one non bf that I caught cheating, was accountable for his actions and showed remorse.  Once he was caught he came clean, no lies and did not blame me for his actions.  There was always a lot of talking things through sometimes over a long period of time depending on the length of the relationship.  I got none of the above from my BPD/NPD ex.

[laelle]

I told mine my opinion and he didnt like it.  Then he told me to get out of his f**ing life and that I was a blood sucking vampire loser, while he was picking up the money I had just sent him to help him out. Then he erased me.  So yeah, its different than any break up I ever had.

[LetItBe]

 There was empathy for my feelings. 

I got none of the above from my BPD/NPD ex.

^Exactly this.^

[bewildered2]

what do they get out of it?

they get temporary relief from the emotional pain that they feel every day.

and once you no longer ease the pain, they leave and engage with a new pain blocker, etc., etc.

b2

 

[Grace58]

Bananas nailed the differences - I had a NON partner who wanted to "play the field" and she broke my heart. But she told me her truth, offered respect and compassion, stayed (and didnt cheat) until we were finished processing, and pursued me as a friend with vigor.  Even after I sulked for a year. Two decades later, she (and her partner) have my heart as friends.  The BPD? Not so much.

[laelle]

I think I get what your saying Bewildered.

About two months before he ditched me he was waking up every morning in pain or raging.  It was so stressful on me because no matter what I tried, he met my empathy

with Apathy or aggression.  I felt helpless.  

I had my own life I had to deal with.  He had made so many promises that never materialized so I had to start trying to provide a path for myself and he didnt like that.  Its suppose to be about him and I guess im suppose to live in his pocket because I would have had no place to live if I had approached life the way he expected me too.

When I told him I didnt like the set up... . he raged and left.

[Rose Tiger]

Schwing's analysis is spot on.  I figured that when the ex and I first hooked up, we were soothing to each other's core wounds.  Then when the idealization was over, the devalue begins.  Then the projection, where they take bad feelings about themselves and project it onto the partner making them 'bad'.  What was once a soothing relationship is now a sharp stick into the core wounds, ripping them wide open.  We can either address finally healing the core wound or we will become involved with another dysfunctional partner.  The ex has now become a trigger to our core wounds and interactions will be painful.  Until we heal and they lose all power over being able to do that.  We also trigger their core wounds and they can either work on their healing or relive the patten all over again.

[leftbehind]

I have been broken up with more than a few times by a non and had them get into a new relationship with a new person or ex.  The difference for me was I was treated with respect.  I was broken up with "properly".   There was empathy for my feelings.  There were sincere apologies.  There was compassion, even in the breakup.  And the one non bf that I caught cheating, was accountable for his actions and showed remorse.  Once he was caught he came clean, no lies and did not blame me for his actions.  There was always a lot of talking things through sometimes over a long period of time depending on the length of the relationship.  I got none of the above from my BPD/NPD ex.

Bananas, thank you so much for articulating this.  This gives voice to my exact experience.  I was broken up with abruptly, got little to no explanation, no empathy, no apology, and no chance to even express my feelings.  Every other breakup I've ever had there was at least conversation, explanation, and apology, usually on both sides. 

[babyducks]

what do they get out of it?

they get temporary relief from the emotional pain that they feel every day.

 

Exactly so.  My ex told me one day, and this is verbatim,  "when I am with you, physically close to you, I am soothed in some primal part of myself that never really rests."   I was her relief for her emotional pain and her deregulated emotions and me,  the hero rescuer, I thought it was great to be able to sooth someone that way.

[Octoberfest]

what do they get out of it?

they get temporary relief from the emotional pain that they feel every day.

 

Exactly so.  My ex told me one day, and this is verbatim,  "when I am with you, physically close to you, I am soothed in some primal part of myself that never really rests."   I was her relief for her emotional pain and her deregulated emotions and me,  the hero rescuer, I thought it was great to be able to sooth someone that way.

Yes.

My BPDex used to say that, "no matter what happened during the day, what awful things, when I feel your arms around me and fall asleep I feel safe.  It is all ok."

Looking back I am shocked how I didn't see it before... . That relationship was ALL about ME loving HER. I was an emotional bandaid.  And anything she did to make me happy, was to keep me around. I know that it wasn't really me as a person that she valued, it was the sense of security that I would never actually leave her, and that she could do whatever she wanted and I would put up with it.  It's why she cheated for 6+/9 months of our relationship with multiple different people

[wanttoknowmore]

Laelle,

I am convinced that pwBPD have no control once the dysregulation starts and takes over their mind. My BPD loved one screamed at the start of dysregulation... . "please... . please leave me alone... . I want to protect you from my craziness... . please... . you will regret it... . leave me alone"

Looking back, I can see how she struggled to fight the disorder and pushed me with all her capacity... . but rages , paranoia and hatred took over and she lost to the disorder gradually and then, she was totally under the influence of this weird disease. I could never in my dreams imagine that such a loving and caring woman can threaten me with restraining order. I know it's not her... . .It's her disorder which made her behave like this.

[mango_flower]

I see it like an investment.  They work out everything about you, get you exactly where they want you... . so they can manipulate and manoeuver (sp?) things so that you're there.  You're not going anywhere, because they've made you feel indebted.  I mean, who else would love you as much, right?  They're investing in THEMSELVES, "buying" the guarantee that you're not going anywhere.

And then when they don't need you so much, they tear you down as a way of taking away your power, so they can hold it all, and do what THEY want... .

It's so messed up.

[papawapa]

All humans act for the same reason. We try to change the way we are currently feeling through our actions. There is a felt uneasiness and we act to relieve it. With every action we hope to exchange our current state with a better future state. So the short answer to what they get out of it is temporary relief from their own internal misery.

[laelle]

Laelle,

I am convinced that pwBPD have no control once the dysregulation starts and takes over their mind. My BPD loved one screamed at the start of dysregulation... . "please... . please leave me alone... . I want to protect you from my craziness... . please... . you will regret it... . leave me alone"

Looking back, I can see how she struggled to fight the disorder and pushed me with all her capacity... . but rages , paranoia and hatred took over and she lost to the disorder gradually and then, she was totally under the influence of this weird disease. I could never in my dreams imagine that such a loving and caring woman can threaten me with restraining order. I know it's not her... . .It's her disorder which made her behave like this.

I forgive him, I know its not his fault.  but I wont go through it again.

[GlennT]

The ones who know, never go back, or finially fight like hell to escape out of it. But, it always backfires back on the BPD. They need to cause people pain and devalue them. They really believe that if others start to feel too good for too long, they will abandon them for someone better. Yet they set it up that way. Some will literally pursue us for years, for the takedown. That is really why they build us and themselves up, for the takedown. They start to tear us down, during the devaluing phase... . to get their own devalued hurt out from their past shame... . try to make it all better with a new victim, with fresh blood, to invigorate them, but it's always a vicious, circular, end game for them,  and the next ones, who cannot read the writing on the wall, in the hell-bound train tunnel.

I see it like an investment.  They work out everything about you, get you exactly where they want you... . so they can manipulate and manoeuver (sp?) things so that you're there.  You're not going anywhere, because they've made you feel indebted.  I mean, who else would love you as much, right?  They're investing in THEMSELVES, "buying" the guarantee that you're not going anywhere.

And then when they don't need you so much, they tear you down as a way of taking away your power, so they can hold it all, and do what THEY want... .

It's so messed up.

[Rose Tiger]

Yikes, that sounds so intentionally evil and planned out.  I don't see it that way, I see ex's actions as instinctual as a fear based animal with no real control or cognitive insight over what they do.  The control was all about the fear.  Codependents do this to, if they can control the situation, then they feel safe.  Ex getting all bent out of shape and I'd be doing everything I could to appease him, make him happy, so I could feel ok.  If I could of been more, whatever, have a freaking melt down... . I wouldn't of been such a control freak myself.  Ying, hello, meet Yang.

I remember telling ex, hey we need a new mattress and he started shaking.  I could feel his angst going sky high.  Over a mattress.  He said, we need to discuss this.  For an hour.  He had to state his needs in regard to a mattress and discuss how much it would be and how we would not pay over a certain dollar amount.  I didn't get it, I didn't understand the pure need for control over everything.  I thought, you go to a mattress store, find one you like and buy it.  It set him off into the weirdest anxiety attack.  That's not normal, that's disordered.  Not planned out manipulation.  That is a mentally unstable person.  And me.  I felt bad for bringing it up and upsetting him.   

[flatspin]

So he built me up to relieve his pain, so he could tear me back down again to relieve his pain?

Me trying so hard to please him, gave him many opportunities to tear me down and relieve his pain?

Dear laelle,

The whole thing reminds me of older threads and posts in which we were told that because of enmeshment, BPD sufferers feel that their SO is them also, as if we were an extension of their self, which means that they unconsciously try to communicate their feelings, theirs fears or else so their overflow of emotions spills towards us like it would in emotional communicating vessels. As a result, they also find it hard to grasp why we don't feel the same, regardless of the cause that may have triggered what they're feeling at a given moment. They can't stand seeing you happy and serene whereas they are on the brink of erupting like a volcano. That can't be ! I remember that sentence from the book "High-Conflict couple" ; "If he loves me, he should know what I want*, so I shouldn't have to say".

* or how I feel

[flatspin]

My understanding is that pwBPD are often in a relationship to avoid the depression and the ill-ease they feel when they are alone (i.e., feeling of emptiness, identity disturbances, etc... . ).  Perhaps they feel they are most like a whole person when they are enmeshed with someone.  And it doesn't always have to be a romantic relationship -- any kind of strong connection will give them an anchor, so to speak.  Who they are depends upon whom they are with.  If they are "with" no one, who are they?

I have read of pwBPD, have anxieties like they might suddenly cease to exist which have to do with them interacting with a "false" sense of self as opposed to an authentic sense of self.  Such that even if they are in conflict with someone, this kind of interaction is preferable over none because this interaction is proof that they are exist and are real.

As I see it, it's when they are in this depressed but disconnected state of being that they might have the best opportunity to start to investigate with what is going on with them.  But perhaps they find it too damn scary.  And would prefer to find a new drama/crisis/excitement to avoid facing this.

By being with you, your BPD loved one had an opportunity to feel elated from the infatuation, and the other emotions associated with early pair bonding.  For the shortest of time, he was able to delude himself into thinking that you are not someone who will trigger his disordered feelings because at the beginning there was little true intimacy and familiarity to trigger his disordered feelings.

I would guess that while he was connecting with you, he was only just beginning to disconnect with his prior partner.  He got to idealize you, and fully devalue his prior partner.  In a sense, by being with you, he got to let out all the air out of the overfull balloon that was his previous relationship.  And then start his cycle all over again.

What was the price?  By having external partners to distract him, he never begins to consider his own internal problems.

 

What did he get out it?  He gets to avoid his internal problem.

I think, just like any other human being, they just want to be happy.  But what stands in the way of their happiness are things they cannot face or choose not to face about themselves.

Part of what you said is exactly what my ex-wife would repeat endlessly when we began dating.

She wanted someone with whom she could connect, have a connection. The problem is that she would bash me for things for which we were different and insult me for the things that we had in common because she said that I was parroting, mimicking or plagiarizing her... .

She wanted a clone of her as a mate and any difference between her and I was considered as unacceptable.