Summer Plan Chaos Part II: The Cops

[Thunderstruck]

Quick rundown so far (this is the continuation of my other thread... . ):

- SO and uBPDbm were never married, have no CO in place (but it's in slow slow process)

- uBPDbm agreed via e-mail to 50/50 over the summer with each person paying for D8's expenses on "their" week if SO paid for the first week and registration. Which he did.

- uBPDbm refused to discuss specifics or any arrangement other than SO having every other weekend unless SO gave her more money. He didn't.

- SO set the boundary that if BM wanted to reverse her agreement to 50/50 then he will continue giving her the same amount of support and he will not pay for daycare, which is how things were being done during the school year.

- As of friday afternoon this week's day camp wasn't paid for (money was due wednesday).

- SO asked her about this week's camp on Friday and Saturday, she refused to discuss and instead asked him for money.

- SO asked her again Sunday night if day camp was paid for this week. She didn't reply until mid Monday.

We were kind of backed into a corner. BM expected SO to just pay the daycare, but instead we made alternate arrangements for D8's care this week. And, as expected, she called the cops and claimed we were kidnapping D8. They did exactly what we thought they would. They showed up, made sure D8 was ok, gave us a brief lecture on "without a court order you have just as much right to have her as BM does, but she can also grab her at any time" (oh yes, we certainly know), then he gave her and her boyfriend a LONG lecture out on the street in front of my house about what I assume was the same thing.

Luckily D8 was asleep and doesn't remember the cops coming in. I can't imagine how traumatizing it must be to wake up with two police officers standing over you. :/

BM is making threats that she'll call the cops again tonight if D8 isn't back to her. SO is nervous that once D8 goes back to BM then she'll try to keep D8 from him again. I pointed out, though, that she would have to keep D8 with her at all times to make that happen. I know that we "poked the bear" but I feel like given the circumstances it was the best decision to make.

[marbleloser]

I'd say you did a great job poking the bear.She just found out that she doesn't have quite the power she thought she did.You and he asserted yourselves and your rights.She'll plan another angle of attack,but she learned this one won't work.

[Matt]

What has worked for me is a very clear e-mail (copying your lawyer) stating what you will do:

From:  SO

To:  Ex

cc:  SO's attorney

Our agreement (attached) is for 50/50 over the summer.  The purpose of this note is to clarify the details so this agreement can work.

I will bring D8 to your home at noon Saturday 6/15, then pick her up at noon Saturday 6/22.  I'll continue in this pattern - 7 days with you, 7 days with me, always picking her up and dropping her off at your place each Saturday at noon - til school starts on August 26.

Please confirm by return e-mail or propose another way to achieve 50/50 as we agreed.

I would suggest consulting your attorney before sending it, and keeping it very simple - just the specifics, nothing vague or general.

If she confirms by e-mail, great - keep a copy of this e-mail exchange with you all the time in case the cops come again.

If she doesn't respond, don't return D8, but continue to send her e-mails aiming to agree to the specifics.

Also, consider going to the police station and having a talk with whoever's in charge there, to let them know what's going on, and to provide whatever documentation you can.  So they will have the context.

And it may be worth asking your lawyer about a restraining order, to make sure there is no contact with the ex, except e-mail needed to resolve issues related to D8.  With a restraining order in place, it will be easier to handle the cops if they come again.

[DreamGirl]

So, in these circumstances, there is logic and there is emotion. We have to remain as grounded as possible especially when there is a high-conflict personality involved.

This keep-the-kid-because-you-can back and forth is going to be draining on you and that poor kiddo that just wants to be able to spend time with each of her parents. One of the most valuable lessons I learned about the pwBPD in my life is that she actually thrives on fighting (it equalizes her inner-self) and she absolutely does not know how to keep the gloves above the belt.

So, I don't really view it as "poking the bear" as I see it as "upping the ante". When my husband went toe to toe with his ex-wife (without a court order to support his actions) he soon realized she was far better at being OK with upping the ante then he was and she absolutely did not play by the rules.  Worst of all, she had no issues (at all) with waking her daughters up in the middle of the night or yanking them out of school... . or once out of the arms of their paternal grandmother.

Be prepared for that and be prepared for push back. That's what setting boundaries is all about - letting go of the outcome.  Your SO is setting a boundary... . that if they agree on terms, that he'll abide by it and expect that she does as well. Is that correct?

I like Matt's response. It's good and may work if she ever calms down.

I don't know the outcome. She's backed into a corner too. She actually thinks she's in the right and may justify her daughter not seeing her Dad until there's an enforceable court order.

I am just so curious as to how long before you can get at least a temporary order in place. I've been thru two separate custody disputes (and I was not married to the father of my oldest son) and the very first hearing for both set a temporary order as far as custody. It took approximately 30 days from the date of filing/the other party being served.

Even when there is domestic violence, supervised visitation is usually established within 30 days.

I just don't understand the delay. A temporary order will solve about 40% of your current issues right now.

~DreamGirl

[Matt]

I am just so curious as to how long before you can get at least a temporary order in place. I've been thru two separate custody disputes (and I was not married to the father of my oldest son) and the very first hearing for both set a temporary order as far as custody. It took approximately 30 days from the date of filing/the other party being served.

Even when there is domestic violence, supervised visitation is usually established within 30 days.

I just don't understand the delay. A temporary order will solve about 40% of your current issues right now.

Yeah, I think getting temporary orders in place fast is a huge issue too.

What does your lawyer say about that?  Any way it can be expedited?  Maybe a motion saying, "The cops have now been involved, so let's have a hearing right away!".

[Thunderstruck]

I hate the chaos, in my original post I was asking how to go with the flow when she keeps changing her mind. I guess it would have placated her if SO had paid for summer camp, but that wouldn't have established a set schedule that she would keep. She'd still think she had all the control and would change her mind at will.

SO's L told him initially that he couldn't get a temporary visitation schedule until they went to mediation. This was when BM withheld D8 for four months and he missed Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's w/D8... . He had the L on retainer since September. L went on medical leave in like March and said she'd be back in July oh and btw she spent the entire retainer. I have this feeling SO got swindled.  SO doesn't have the money to retain another L so that's why there's no L involvement at this time.

Can he file for an emergency/temporary hearing pro se?

[marbleloser]

"She'd still think she had all the control and would change her mind at will. "

And,she'd continue to do that.Unfortunately,there isn't any amicable way with someone who has a PD.I still think you handled it well.If you bend to her every whim,you'd be setting precedence and she'd be establishing status quo.

Your SO's L at the least not asking for a pendente lite hearing is a major  problem.A judge doesn't have to schedule one,as in my case,but it should be on record as requested.We were just given a standing pendente lite order,in lieu of a hearing.Both sides requested the hearing.

I'm not sure if he can file pro se,since he's retained a L.Her spending all the retainer for nothing should tell you alot.He needs to shop around for another L,even if he can't afford the retainer.He's going to have to pony up some $$ to the L he has now anyway,since she spent the retainer,and he may as well spend it on someone that will be there for him.

[Matt]

Can he file for an emergency/temporary hearing pro se?

I think he probably can, and should.

Not to distract the judge from the main issue, but if the judge asks about representation, SO can tell her what you told us:  "I retained Ms. X but she did not do the job and has not refunded my money.  If I had that money back I could afford a good attorney."  The judge might act on that.

[Thunderstruck]

When D8 and BM were on the phone, BM told D8 that she was being kidnapped and held against her will.   D8 lectured her mom for quite awhile on the definition of kidnapping and that we were fun and she liked being with us (D8 didn't know the cops had come and had, prior to the phone call, been kept out of the whole situation). BM told D8 that she was going to send the cops to come get her. SO and I then had to tell her that her mom did already, and that the cops said it is not, in fact, kidnapping and nobody (especially her) is doing anything wrong. I didn't want D8 to know about the chaos to begin with, I hope we handled that situation ok.

D8 has a different voice and attitude talking to BM than with anyone else. It's strange to hear. At the end of the phone call she got so frustrated with her mom saying "mean things" that she wanted to just hang up.

[Matt]

You may want to get D8 into counseling with someone who can hear those stories besides you.  Or find a non-family adult close enough to D8 so D8 will talk openly about that stuff.  The idea would be to have D8's experiences available to be put into evidence.

[ForeverDad]

And, as expected, she called the cops and claimed we were kidnapping D8. They did exactly what we thought they would. They showed up, made sure D8 was ok, gave us a brief lecture on "without a court order you have just as much right to have her as BM does, but she can also grab her at any time" (oh yes, we certainly know), then he gave her and her boyfriend a LONG lecture out on the street in front of my house about what I assume was the same thing.

BM is making threats that she'll call the cops again tonight if D8 isn't back to her. SO is nervous that once D8 goes back to BM then she'll try to keep D8 from him again. I pointed out, though, that she would have to keep D8 with her at all times to make that happen. I know that we "poked the bear" but I feel like given the circumstances it was the best decision to make.

I'd say you did a great job poking the bear. She just found out that she doesn't have quite the power she thought she did. You and he asserted yourselves and your rights. She'll plan another angle of attack, but she learned this one won't work.

Most pwBPD described here - obviously the high conflict ones - feel very entitled.  They are convinced they deserve and demand the power, authority and respect, none is given to the other parent nor anyone else.  Sadly, you can't reason with someone who won't reason.

Enter the police... . What you related is precisely what mine told me.  However, I was also told that without a written order they wouldn't even accompany me to fetch or contact my child, that's how hands-off they were.  But in the next breath the officer confirmed that if I did go to her door and she called claiming harassment, endangerment, fear or whatever, they would rush right over.  Well, she'd already made false allegations, I didn't want a quick ride to a weekend in jail in an orange jumpsuit, so I had to wait for... .

Domestic or family court... . This judge or magistrate has power and authority that will trump any ex's sense of entitlement.  But there's a snag.  Courts are reluctant to go beyond the bare minimum of standard orders.  They are slow to act and slow to react, they much prefer for the parents to somehow 'figure it out' without the court having to decide for them.  Yeah, only takes one unreasonable parent to sabotage that!