Left a message for the therapist, hoping she'll call me back...

[mggt]

Hi all, I just left another message for my daughters t.  I was updating her on all that has gone on.  :) is still dancing and has my gd two nights now and getting very concerned.  Found out on one oIf the nights she had my gd she was out dancing and one of her dancer friends was babysitting my gd .  Such poor choices my d makes.  I questioned her and she started yelling saying she was asleep when she left,  Also found out she has a new roomate one of the dancers boyfriends .  My d called me this morning and told me one of the dancers and her had a fist fight had the club they were dancing at omg .  So I left all this info on t answering machine hopefully she can help .

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Thursday]

hi mggt,

Maybe the therapist will be able to sort things out a bit. I don't know if the therapist can share things with you but I know when my dSD21 was in therapy we would occasionally book sessions with her therapist to shed light on new developments. Frequently, I would see "a lightbulb" (not really) over his head when he realized that something she had told him wasn't true.

I'm hoping that maybe, just possibly, even though also a "dancer", the babysitter is responsible and won't put your grandchild in danger. Stripper with a heart of gold?

I know how it feels to sit and see our pwBPD making one bad choice after another. My SD is currently unemployed and not making much of an effort to find a job... . instead she is asking for handouts family and family friends. Whenever she gets her hands on any sum of money she treats herself to a variety of things... . pleasurable things like movies, food treats, clothing from retail stores, etc. None of these behaviors forwards her life in any way, yet, these are the choices she makes.

What we find, more and more with study and reading this board, is that we have to step back, hold our breath and let her make whatever mistakes she is going to make, and let her feel the consequences of her actions, whatever they may be. Sometimes she learns, sometimes she doesn't. She doesn't have a child though, or anyone dependant on her. You must be so worried about your grand daughter, so very worried. You must be so worried about them both.

There are other grandmas on this board who will chime in... . just wanted you to know that I read your post and will be thinking of you.

Thursday

[TopsyTurvy]

Mggt, I know how scary it is when our children are making poor choices, especially when there is a grandchild involved. You must be frightened about the people she is bringing around your gd. My daughter also used to dance. Oh well, I guess I will just call it what it really was. She was a stripper. My gs was a toddler at the time and she did let her "friends" babysit also. It is upsetting when we don't know the people they are exposing our gc to or if they are placing them in an unsafe environment. My dd also got in a fistfight with another dancer. Lots of similarities. Luckily, like every other job she had, that one was short-lived.

I don't know the answer. Just wanted you to know I can sympathize with what you are going through. Hopefully, the t will be able to help.

[vivekananda]

You would of course be worried for your dd and gs. It is a difficult situation you are in.

I found that we often place a lot of focus on our children's T. I have done this also. Sometimes this can be misguided and we need to take care for ourselves that we appreciate that the T is concerned with their client and not our worries and concerns.

I hope that your d's T is able to alleviate your concerns.

What of our skills that we apply here would help you feel better about your situation, do you think?

Vivek    

[mggt]

Thank you all topsy turvy, how is your d and gd now?  Vivek ,  not sure what skills I can use for this it is just the constant worrying I have for my d and gd .  I think the t is way over her head with my d We did meet with her a long time ago and some of her thinking was really off .  My d invited us last night so watch her dance... . needless to say i told her i could never do that and that she was more compentent than that to be a dancer and that the mother bear in me would come out.  Not sure if that was the right way to handle it but I have to be honest.  topsy turvy,  I also hope she will be getting fired all lose interest in dancing who knows thanks again   

[heronbird]

Oh so sorry to read this post. Id be in a right state if it were me, Im dreading that sort of thing. Isnt it funny how literally one min things can be fine and almost perfect, the next it can be a bad situation, yours could change for the better too.

What you can do to help you is a good point, we need to concentrate on looking after ourselves so that we can stay strong. One of the things I have learnt is to take a step back, give my self a bit of time to think straight. Then you may see the whole picture a bit better.

I got to the point where I didnt want to know anything as it hurts too much. I think I was better off not knowing some of the stuff.

Im not sure if the therapist will help really. In UK it would be social services, you ring them if you are worried about a child and they investigate.

[heronbird]

Oh sorry, also I forgot to say, communication and validation with your dd is so important too. Have you read up on it? thats what helped me a lot. Dont take anything personally and always be encouraging when she talks to you. Sont get upset and dont use "you" words. Make it all about yourself and not her.

Im sure you know all of this already and there are some really good threads on validation on this site. Valerie porrs book overcoming BPD is good too if you havent already read it. There is a few pages at the back for clinicians which is interesting.

[TopsyTurvy]

Mggt, actually I have a gs instead of a gd. Things are not going so well right now with them. They just moved out about a month ago and I have been worried sick about their living arrangement. Like you, I have the constant worrying. It is so much easier to practice radical acceptance and also let them experience the consequences of their own actions when a child isn't involved. I am having to accept the fact that my gs will not live the kind of life I would like him to have. He has a mother who is mentally ill and that is sad but it is the reality we have to face. We might not be able rescue our gc but we can be there as much as possible to give them unconditional love and a sense of stability.

You said your daughter has your gd two days a week. Does she stay with you the rest of the week? Is the father involved in her life? At least if your gd is staying with you, you can make sure she is safe for part of the week.

I can understand you turning down the invitation to watch your dd dance! At least she wants you around right? I couldn't imagine watching old men look at my child like she was an object for their amusement. Every time I see a dancer, I think that is someone's daughter, or mom, or sister. Just a sad situation that they don't know how valuable they are. I hope for your sake and hers that she gets out of that lifestyle soon.

I will keep you and your family in my prayers and hope you can find some peace. Take care.

[vivekananda]

It is so much easier to practice radical acceptance and also let them experience the consequences of their own actions when a child isn't involved.

Topsy Turvy, you understand. Yes it is hard to practice radical acceptance when a child is involved, but somewhere between worrying (which is wasted energy) and doing what you feel you should for the protection of your gc, lies radical acceptance. Being a grandparent of a d with BPD has to be one of the most difficult situations there is. We love our d, we love our gc, we want to protect them both but especially the vulnerable child.

What we as parents and grandparents find so challenging is knowing and accepting what we have control over and what we don't. Therein lies the crunch. When there are things we cannot change, then we have to accept them and instead work on changing ourselves.

Isn't our goal to have a good relationship with our children? Then what do we need to do to improve our relationship with our children?

When we make a judgement about our child, it is an expression of our own needs and emotions. It is invalidating to be critical of our child because we disapprove. When our children decide how they live their life, we may not like it, but it is not within our power to change it. So, we have to learn to accept it or risk the relationship with our children, their mental health and our own.

Our world provides children with the protection of the law when a parent abuses or neglects their kids. If we have concerns for that, then we are responsible to do what we can using the legal system to protect the child. But if it is a difference in values/morality, then unless there is a risk, it is not up to us to judge.

mggt and topsy turvy, I know this sounds harsh, I don't know how to say it any other way. As grandparents it is really important to be there for your grandchildren I think. That means to have a good relationship with your d. That means accepting what you cannot change. If your d chooses to be a dancer, you cannot change it, so you need to accept it. This is the challenge of radical acceptance. To help you improve your relationship with your d, work on understanding and applying validation. There are lots of resources available here on the site. Have a read and see what can help you. In the meantime, check this out:

Validation Tools and Techniques

mggt and topsy turvy, others have trod this path before you, there is wise advise to be gained from participating here,

we are here for you & Cheers,

Vivek    

[mggt]

Dear topsy turvy,  So sorry to hear that your gs is no longer living with you I know how worried you must be i will pray for all of you.  I have my gd from tuesday all day my d picks her up at 6 pm then brings her back wed morning and we keep her until friday night and then the other grandparents pick her up until sunday morning when my d picks her up , the father sees gd on weekends i think but the other grandparents are great with her thank god.  So i do have her alot my d has a day job and has off sun and mondays that is when she is suppose to be with her . They all know she is dancing at night and does not like it.  Because it is all over internet and she is using a fake name but they know her fake name ahhhhhhhhhh.   My d now wants to keep gd on thursday nights but I keep on telling her that my gd needs to be on a schedule so let us keep her so far working.  The thought of taking her to court makes me ill dont know if we would win and if we did not win that would be the end of our relationship and gd.  I hope things get better with your d and gs this disease is terrible it effects everyone .  I need to practice all these skills i just worry to much for her and gd and driving me slowly CRAZY... . Vivek ,  thanks for forwarding info for me i will def look into it.  Thank you topsy turvy I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers for your d and little one  

[TopsyTurvy]

Mggt, sounds like your gd has a lot of loving people around her and your dd allows you all a lot of access to her. That is good. It is also a good sign that your dd is in therapy. I wish my dd would get into therapy. That would give me some hope for the future.

Ahh, I understand well the dilemma about taking her to court. It's a difficult decision because, as you said, if you don't win you will likely lose any relationship with both of them. We considered taking that step too but decided that we were not prepared to take that risk. As long as we have some contact with our gs, I think we can keep an eye on his living conditions, and step in if we feel he is in imminent danger. Is there any other reason, besides the dancing, that is making you consider going to court? I do not think that her choice to dance would be a reason that a judge would take away custody from her. Is she loving and kind to her dd? Does she take good care of her on the days she has her? I know my dd is somewhat neglectful and her drug use has me concerned about my gs safety. I raised him for almost 2 years while she lived out of state. I still don't know if I could win custody of him, although, I have not closed that door completely.

Vivek , you are right about worrying being wasted energy. It get us nowhere and steals our joy in life. For the last few weeks I have been consumed with so much worry that it was robbing my husband and children. I was there physically, but not emotionally for them. I have been trying to focus that energy on more positive things such as learning new skills to use and being in the moment with my children. If I let a beautiful day hanging out with my family at the park be wasted by dwelling on my concern for gs, then I have not helped him any and I have lost precious moments I can never get back with my own children. It's an ongoing battle. I feel I have come a long way, but I know I have so much farther to go. The worry is still there but just pushed farther back in my mind.

I understand that we have to allow our children the right to make their own decisions. Their values and morals do not have to mimic ours. That is their choice. The problem I had with her dancing was the heavy drug use and dangerous men that this lifestyle brought into her and her son's life. I tried to be validating when she shared with me how degraded the job made her feel or how good the money was and how it allowed her to spend more time with her son than working a full time job. Where I struggle is knowing how to share my concerns without being invalidating. I don't want to judge but I do want to protect.  I don't know where her rights end and her son's begin?  It's a balancing act to know when to step in and when to back off. I will admit that I am not very good at knowing where to draw that line. I hope with time I will get better.

Mggt. I continue to pray for you. Just remember that you can't get so caught up into the craziness that you are not available for your family. You have to save yourself before you can be a help to anyone else. Like Vivek  says we have to accept what we cannot change.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mggt]

Dear Topsy Turvy,  You are right on so many levels. But, I havent come to the realization yet that I cant help her and my gd.  I think right now she is not capable of caring properly for her d she has so much anger towards me and ex bf .  She has limited time with her d and spends most of it sleeping because she is so tired from day job and dancing.  Im sure you know the story she is right and the world is wrong the sad thing is she never learns from her mistakes .  This is not first time pregnant but only child she has... . I call it the BPD map .  I can only imagine your worry and sleepless nights Im glad you have other children.  My d is our only child and we adopted her at 5 days old .  We were thrilled and over the moon but she always had issues even as a infant .  She has been in therapy since 7 years old very long time she is now almost 21 years old Legal all over the world . She was in a rtc at age 16 till 17,  not much help it was all dbt run but she did not use the skills they taught her after she got out down hill from there arrested pregnant attacking me and her father called police had her removed just constant craziness for lack of better word .  I keep in my heart that my d will get help and heal not much more we can do for her sad as it is it is up to her now and all the therapist that she is seeing btw the t is way over her head and will not suggest she move on to someone else that possibly could help her.  But again my d does not think she has any problems at all it is all of us . Thank you for responding and I will keep your precious grandson in my prayers along with you and your d   

[vivekananda]

Hi mums!

What dilemmas we face. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy would you? I think there is something in knowing that others here face similar quandaries to those you face. Myself, I don't have gkids to account for. I used to so much long for a gc, now I count my lucky stars. But I have faced the 'judgemental' dilemma. Not approving of how my dd chose to live. I worried about if she'd end up homeless, if she was in danger of facing criminal charges, if she was putting herself into dangerous situations. I have learnt to let go of 'worry', that is a blessing. I hope that as you go through the process of learning how you need to change you can learn how to let go of worry too.

But this 'judgemental' stuff is a more challenging kettle of fish for me. To come to grips with this, requires that you really throw yourself into understanding the concept of validation and how to practice it. It is critical to help us personally and to help our dd's (and gkids). Perhaps you could have a look at the workshop on validation and post your concerns there... . Do you have any ideas: where does our responsibility towards our gkids begin and end... . ? How do we work this out?

thinking of you and your families both,

Vivek    

ps: there's a bit of reading to do I think