Alcohol use and dysregulation

[Bloomer]

And it sure would be nice if the others added to our network of relationships were good influences in that direction rather than bad ones.

We seem to attract people with 'issues'. That fact might be the strongest argument against an open r/s!

Our third just revealed she's been using alcohol to self soothe her depression (BPD-related) since the fall. I'm shocked as I had no idea and also very worried. She's seeking a detox program but things had just started improving between me and H. yesterday marked our first full week without a major dysregulation, which was a big thing! And then she called and dropped this bomb. I'm worried, anxious and can't stop thinking "is this ever going to end?" I'm glad she finally told us what was going on but it's also very scary that she was able to hide it for months... .

B.  :'(

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[arabella]

Oh, Bloomer, sorry to hear!

I don't think it ever really ends. There is always something. I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that adding more people just means there are more issues to deal with and things tend to blow up faster and worse (credit to Grey Kitty for that insight)!

Do you think that the problems your H was having contributed to 3's depression? I would worry that all of the care and effort that went into trying to help your H might have masked and detracted from the care (including self-care) that 3 needed. It's no one's fault, but just a reality that it can be very hard to juggle everyone's needs and still remember to take care of ourselves at the same time. Do you have a support plan in place going forward?

[Grey Kitty]

Our third just revealed she's been using alcohol to self soothe her depression (BPD-related) since the fall. I'm shocked as I had no idea and also very worried.

 Oh honey, I just want to offer you a shoulder to cry on with that sort of news. I've know  people self-medicating with alcohol for (physical) pain in a way that isn't self-destructive. But alcohol can be very harmful for depression. Seen people do that too.  :'(

 GK

[Bloomer]

Oh, Bloomer, sorry to hear!

I don't think it ever really ends. There is always something. I think this goes back to what we were talking about earlier, that adding more people just means there are more issues to deal with and things tend to blow up faster and worse (credit to Grey Kitty for that insight)!

Do you think that the problems your H was having contributed to 3's depression? I would worry that all of the care and effort that went into trying to help your H might have masked and detracted from the care (including self-care) that 3 needed. It's no one's fault, but just a reality that it can be very hard to juggle everyone's needs and still remember to take care of ourselves at the same time. Do you have a support plan in place going forward?

Thanks Arabella. Yes, mo' people mo' problems. 

I think she has many of her own demons, so to speak. I definitely think trying to put on a face for us to be a support for each of us may have been much more than she could handle and could have led to her eventually feeling completely overwhelmed.

Before she called us, she told us two days prior that she needed a time out, that it was nothing to do with us. She dropped off facebook and we became concerned and called her. She said then that she just needed a break from social networking. The next day the truth came out.

I will still rely on my T, my best friend at work, and best friends outside of work for support. Luckily, things are still much better between me and H. So, at least there's that. However, I worry so much of the effect this will have on him.

Furthermore, I am worried I will upset them both and don't plan to address this right now while everything is fresh but I am strongly reconsidering a romantic relationship with third. I need guaranteed stability with H and I'm feeling very protective over the newfound progress we've made. We have made it past 1 week without a major dysregulation. This hasn't happen in over a year, which was the week my grandfather died and he gave me a break.

B.

[Bloomer]

Our third just revealed she's been using alcohol to self soothe her depression (BPD-related) since the fall. I'm shocked as I had no idea and also very worried.

 Oh honey, I just want to offer you a shoulder to cry on with that sort of news. I've know  people self-medicating with alcohol for (physical) pain in a way that isn't self-destructive. But alcohol can be very harmful for depression. Seen people do that too.  :'(

 GK

Thank you. I'm feeling a bit blubbery and deer-in-headlights today. Yes, trying to trick yourself into not feeling the pain inside is dangerous. While she may not have been drunk or belligerent, she was using alcohol to numb herself and it's awful to think about someone you love feeling so much pain that this becomes an option to cope. I'm very worried about her now, and her future. She has a long history of self-harm and much more self-inflicted behaviors than H. H hasn't self-harmed in years.

We've expressed to her that we're here for her, we aren't angry and we love her. All of that is true. I also have a history within my family of origin of dealing with things like this. My sister is bipolar and was committed for suicide attempts around the age of 13. I spent much of my life enabling her and watching my parents enable her. February 2012 she drunk drove home bc she was upset about suspecting her ex-husband of abusing their daughter. Then she verbally attacked me and my mother in front of her daughter. I went no contact with her after that. Things have been rocky with my family ever since. I only speak with my sister to arrange to meet to see my niece, who is 8.

So, basically I have other triggers here. My fight or flight alarm is going nuts. I immediately felt the stress overtaking my body. Granted our third is taking the proper steps, unlike my sister, but it's still scary.

I need a vacation.

[Grey Kitty]

Bloomer, I understand how this is both scary and triggering to you. 

Still, I want to point out the positive side of it. She admitted that she was self-medicating with alcohol, and said that she wants to get into detox.

That is a huge improvement over not very long ago... . when she was doing exactly the same drinking for exactly the same reason... . and hiding it from you and not seeking help.

Meanwhile... . you are at risk of being triggered. What can you do to make yourself feel more safe?

[arabella]

 

This is some really tough stuff, Bloomer. We all have our own demons and I think GK is right - 3 is showing some great progress in realizing she has a problem, owning it, and trying to correct it. Interesting that both she and your H started to display some emotional health improvement simultaneously.

I can see this situation becoming very stressful (not that it isn't already!) - what is your 'vacation' plan? Seriously, aside from your usual supportive relationships, do you have other steps you can take to help keep you on an even keel?

I hear you say you're reconsidering the romantic r/s with 3. How does your H feel about this? How difficult would it be to disentangle? Are you thinking that you will step back on your own, or are you asking your H to step back with you?

[Bloomer]

I can see this situation becoming very stressful (not that it isn't already!) - what is your 'vacation' plan? Seriously, aside from your usual supportive relationships, do you have other steps you can take to help keep you on an even keel?

I hear you say you're reconsidering the romantic r/s with 3. How does your H feel about this? How difficult would it be to disentangle? Are you thinking that you will step back on your own, or are you asking your H to step back with you?

You're both right. She is showing improvement and it's positive that she's seeking help. For that, I'm so grateful.

'My vacation' - I have theatre rehearsals 4 evenings a week right now. So that distracts me from things a bit. I also have some crafting I do (even if it's during tv with H) that is very self soothing for me. I also cycle (mostly commuting right now), which helps. I'd love to go visit my cousin (best friend) across the country but that is not possible financially. It would just be running away from everything though. I think when I got home, I'd be in the same boat.

I don't know how to manage this trigger as things with my family are quite stressful still. So, anything reminding me of that situation, is a live trigger. I haven't resolved anything there that happened as a result of people being out of control. I spent much of my time there being the mediator and caretaker as well. I fought to get out of that role when I realized it was too much and I couldn't change them. For that, they are hurt and can't admit things they have done were unacceptable. And I don't want to give in to them bc they will just continue to pour their stress and mismanaged behaviors onto me if I do. My father recently agreed to meet with me, then said it wasn't fair to my mother. I haven't spoken to my mother or brother in 6 months. My sister and I only talk when I want to see my niece but she's a trigger in herself. My dad has now agreed but is hesitant to see me bc my mother is upset with me.

I'm trying to focus on the positive part of this but all I can think about is that 3 has been doing these things her entire life. I knew she still self harmed from time to time. Not knowing something like this was happening just feels like a big breach of trust. I am not angry, just hurt. And now that trust I had with her is gone. How can I ever trust her not to do things like this?

I have NOT told H about reconsidering romance with her. This would be a major trigger for him. I am thinking whatever program she goes through may recommend no dating for a while, and I won't have to say anything. I wouldn't ask him not to date her but if her share starts to cause conflict for him or us, I wouldn't be ok with it. Even if I told him that, this would set him off. So I guess this is part of my stress. I don't want to trigger him. Maybe I'll feel differently later, so no sense bringing it up now since it won't really come up while she's in treatment.

I think I feel resentment towards 3 for bringing more stress into my life. I literally finally started feeling comfortable after 1 week of no major dysregs. Now, my back is in knots over this and it makes me feel so upset that I don't get any time with H when NOTHING STRESSFUL is happening. I'm not talking day-to-day stress. I'm talking major life stress: 1 death in my family, death of H's close friend, H moving across an ocean, immigration process, my crazy family of origin, workplace bullying (me)... . All of these things happened in the past year in outside our relationship on top of H's dysregulations every day. I think I just sort of identified feeling resentment towards her. So I guess that's what I need to work on.

[waverider]

Be aware that once someone comes out of a detox program they are on a high and are likely to be in extreme idealization mode making lots of promises they will struggle to keep, so you will need to stay centered.

[Bloomer]

Be aware that once someone comes out of a detox program they are on a high and are likely to be in extreme idealization mode making lots of promises they will struggle to keep, so you will need to stay centered.

Thanks. I noticed even when she told us what's been going on she seemed to be very high energy. She kept saying she was giddy about finally being honest with people. Are there any tools here that focus specifically on coping with those coming out of a program?

B.

[waverider]

Not really any tools, but I have been through this a dozen times, and I guess comparing it to idealization reborn is as close as you can get.

Just dont get too swept away with the born again promises. Also be aware often one visit to detox is not enough to fix it. Particularly with pwBPD who tend to soon forget the lessons learned, block their responsibility and hence recycle the problem.

My partner has been into alcohol detox between 20-30 times over her life. at least 12 or so while I have known her, each time was the life changing last time. 20 weeks clean at the moment

I noticed even when she told us what's been going on she seemed to be very high energy

This too, owning up and coming clean is a huge weight off their shoulders.

My partners issue with detox was that she rarely stayed the time, declaring herself clean after a day or two (7 day program) and discharging herself,. Abandonment issues also came into play.

[Grey Kitty]

I'm trying to focus on the positive part of this but all I can think about is that 3 has been doing these things her entire life. I knew she still self harmed from time to time. Not knowing something like this was happening just feels like a big breach of trust. I am not angry, just hurt. And now that trust I had with her is gone. How can I ever trust her not to do things like this?

This struck me. I've been there, discovering somebody close to you hasn't been who you thought they were, and you have to go back in your mind and re-write history, sometimes your whole relationship with them.

It does really hurt. 

OTOH, it really sounds like you don't have the capacity to support a lot of 3's issues right now, so she was doing you a big favor by not dumping them on you!

Another thought... . since she was doing it before you met her, think about it from her POV: When do you feel safe sharing this sort of thing? That's gotta be tough!

One more thought about all waverider's experiences on detox: Try not to get too attached to expectations, in either direction; just accept that she is working on her issues the best she can.

If you expect her to come clean and never drink again, you are setting yourself up for a horrible disappointment if she fails.

If you expect her to fail/relapse, she will probably notice/feel it, and that doesn't work either.

[waverider]

If you expect her to come clean and never drink again, you are setting yourself up for a horrible disappointment if she fails.

If you expect her to fail/relapse, she will probably notice/feel it, and that doesn't work either.

This is the horrible no win situation I found myself in, you end up having to fake belief to support them, while at the same time not allowing yourself to be as convinced as you are supposed to sound, so that you are not as let down when they fail... . totally sucks.

[Bloomer]

Thanks for all the support. I will check back when there are more developments. Right now we are waiting to see what her treatment plan will be and when. I am going to work on forgiving and not having unrealistical expectations.

 B.

[Bloomer]

It does really hurt. 

OTOH, it really sounds like you don't have the capacity to support a lot of 3's issues right now, so she was doing you a big favor by not dumping them on you!

Another thought... . since she was doing it before you met her, think about it from her POV: When do you feel safe sharing this sort of thing? That's gotta be tough!

One more thought about all waverider's experiences on detox: Try not to get too attached to expectations, in either direction; just accept that she is working on her issues the best she can.

If you expect her to come clean and never drink again, you are setting yourself up for a horrible disappointment if she fails.

If you expect her to fail/relapse, she will probably notice/feel it, and that doesn't work either.

She didn't start using alcohol to self cope until we had known her for about 6 months. We knew she struggled with depression during the winter but not that she had BPD. We found out about BPD about 2 months ago. Just to clear that up.

[Grey Kitty]

If you expect her to come clean and never drink again, you are setting yourself up for a horrible disappointment if she fails.

If you expect her to fail/relapse, she will probably notice/feel it, and that doesn't work either.

This is the horrible no win situation I found myself in, you end up having to fake belief to support them, while at the same time not allowing yourself to be as convinced as you are supposed to sound, so that you are not as let down when they fail... . totally sucks.

Gawd, it has to suck. I guess the best you can do is look at one sincerely positive step and see it as one sincerely positive step. Trying not to worry so much about which way the steps after it will go.

Radical acceptance is hard.

[waverider]

If you expect her to come clean and never drink again, you are setting yourself up for a horrible disappointment if she fails.

If you expect her to fail/relapse, she will probably notice/feel it, and that doesn't work either.

This is the horrible no win situation I found myself in, you end up having to fake belief to support them, while at the same time not allowing yourself to be as convinced as you are supposed to sound, so that you are not as let down when they fail... . totally sucks.

Gawd, it has to suck. I guess the best you can do is look at one sincerely positive step and see it as one sincerely positive step. Trying not to worry so much about which way the steps after it will go.

Radical acceptance is hard.

After about the 10th time you have been through this and you are asked directly "you believe me when I say I'm never going to drink again dont you? You know it is important that you believe me or there's no point", its tough... . what to say the truth or another white lie? You also want to believe or it becomes pointless to you also. pwBPD are slow learners and often need to relearn many times

[Grey Kitty]

After about the 10th time you have been through this and you are asked directly "you believe me when I say I'm never going to drink again dont you? You know it is important that you believe me or there's no point", its tough... . what to say the truth or another white lie? You also want to believe or it becomes pointless to you also. pwBPD are slow learners and often need to relearn many times

Sheesh. I'd have trouble there, 'cuz I've just got a FOO trait/history of being completely honest. I'd probably say "Yes." thinking "Yes I believe that you are sincere now, rather than certain to actually succeed this time."

[waverider]

After about the 10th time you have been through this and you are asked directly "you believe me when I say I'm never going to drink again dont you? You know it is important that you believe me or there's no point", its tough... . what to say the truth or another white lie? You also want to believe or it becomes pointless to you also. pwBPD are slow learners and often need to relearn many times

Sheesh. I'd have trouble there, 'cuz I've just got a FOO trait/history of being completely honest. I'd probably say "Yes." thinking "Yes I believe that you are sincere now, rather than certain to actually succeed this time."

Thats pretty much the way I try to answer, but its still a tricky one, as they want a black and white yes or no as to whether you think they will or will not. They dont want an I believe you mean it, but may not achieve it... .

[Bloomer]

Wow, Waverider. How do you cope with the repeat of this and do they stick to treatment or meetings between relapses?


Grey Kitty--Your inbox is full and I can't respond to your PM. 

Update:

3 is looking for an inpatient detox program. She's currently staying at her parents while she uses an outpatient detox program. We saw her yesterday for a short visit. She was a bit out of it, in pain from withdrawal and sort of lethargic from the medication the outpatient program gave her. She told us more about what happened with her. Basically she started using alcohol just to get to sleep in 2006. She used it intermittently for that purpose up until last summer. Sometime in the winter, she started drinking during the day because she doesn't have a set schedule. She spent much of the winter drunk, just so she didn't have to feel anything. A few weeks ago she quit therapy because she acknowledged it wouldn't help her if she was going to keep drinking. Her drinking got worse and eventually she realized she needed to get help before things got any worse. It was tough to see her like that. It shook us both up a bit.

H actually said afterwards, "It's going to be really tough for her to get over this." I agree and we're being supportive but I have a hard time feeling optimistic about this being a one-off recovery.

[Grey Kitty]

Bloomer, I do believe that rehab programs are worth it. Even if they don't work the first time.

This does sound tough for 3, and will put some stress on both you and your H as well. I hope there aren't any new "bombs" waiting to drop at this point.

And I cleaned my inbox. They are self-cleaning around here, but apparently not fast enough to save me from filling it up!

[Bloomer]

Bloomer, I do believe that rehab programs are worth it. Even if they don't work the first time.

This does sound tough for 3, and will put some stress on both you and your H as well. I hope there aren't any new "bombs" waiting to drop at this point.

And I cleaned my inbox. They are self-cleaning around here, but apparently not fast enough to save me from filling it up!

I hope so. 3 had an appointment with a place today. They don't have any room for her. Since her insurance won't cover this, she has to go with a program that has county funding available. Apparently that is tough to find right now. She's currently decided to go back to therapy, attend AA meetings and stay at her parents. I'm not sure how long the outpatient program through a hospital she has been using lasts. The medication was just for a few days I believe, not sure if they continue daily visits beyond that.

I am trying to prepare for bombs but frankly I haven't had enough time between work and play rehearsals for "me time" and I haven't been sleeping well. I don't know what to do bc I really need some time but there aren't enough hours in the day!

Thanks for cleaning your room.  You're just too popular GC!

[arabella]

It sounds like 3 is making a really good effort here. She isn't taking the easy way out and she isn't making excuses. I think this is a good sign. She may relapse but at least she's taking the right steps and she's committed to this. We all make mistakes, right?

I am trying to prepare for bombs but frankly I haven't had enough time between work and play rehearsals for "me time" and I haven't been sleeping well. I don't know what to do bc I really need some time but there aren't enough hours in the day!

Uh oh. This sounds like a recipe for potential disaster. You can't do much about work and your theatre commitments, but perhaps it's time to look into what you can do about getting your sleep back on track? Being over-tired and stressed isn't going to help anyone and, frankly, I think you're going to need your strength and your wits over the next while!

[Grey Kitty]

  It really sounds like 3 is doing the best she can, and it is an improvement over what she had been doing.

Have you thought about what kind of support and how much of it you can give to her with what is going on in your life right now?

It doesn't sound like she's demanding very much of you right now, and that is probably wise.

Remember... . always put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others. When you are tired busy and stressed it can be easy to let some of your normal self-care regimen slide... . just when you need it the most!

 The ever-popular GK 

[waverider]

Just keep healthy boundaries, BPD plus addiction issues can leach the life out of you. Be very wary of the fact that not everything you are told will be true, both issues can cause desperate behaviors.

My partner has run out of charity/public funded detox units she has been banned from all 5 in our city now due to leaving early. The last one she OD on the second day with some meds she had snuck in. So this better had be the last time as there is nowhere left to go. In a perverse way the knowledge that there is no "safety net" left I think is adding to her resolve as she cant do it without detox.

These free detoxes generally took 3-4 weeks wait before admission, so during this waiting period each time she had "handed over" responsibility, she ceased all restraint and the problem rapidly accelerated like a month long bucks night. It was horrible. I believe as long as there is someone else available to fix her up and hand the issue to she did not have the discipline to dig deep enough.

[Bloomer]

It sounds like 3 is making a really good effort here. She isn't taking the easy way out and she isn't making excuses. I think this is a good sign. She may relapse but at least she's taking the right steps and she's committed to this. We all make mistakes, right?

I am trying to prepare for bombs but frankly I haven't had enough time between work and play rehearsals for "me time" and I haven't been sleeping well. I don't know what to do bc I really need some time but there aren't enough hours in the day!

Uh oh. This sounds like a recipe for potential disaster. You can't do much about work and your theatre commitments, but perhaps it's time to look into what you can do about getting your sleep back on track? Being over-tired and stressed isn't going to help anyone and, frankly, I think you're going to need your strength and your wits over the next while!

She is taking the right steps. I hope she can continue to do so.

I took a sleeping pill last night to ensure I didn't toss and turn again b/c me minus sleep=B-zilla raaawr... . Hopefully I can continue to sleep better so I am more centered. I am also going to try to do some meditations.

B.

[Bloomer]

 It really sounds like 3 is doing the best she can, and it is an improvement over what she had been doing.

Have you thought about what kind of support and how much of it you can give to her with what is going on in your life right now?

It doesn't sound like she's demanding very much of you right now, and that is probably wise.

Remember... . always put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others. When you are tired busy and stressed it can be easy to let some of your normal self-care regimen slide... . just when you need it the most!

 The ever-popular GK 

She isn't demanding much. I'm not sure how much contact will help her right now. She's stated that she's irritable and has been reaching out to my H much more than me, which is fine but I don't know if I should read into that or not. Like she gave him an update on things yesterday but I had to ask her what was going on. So, I feel wary of being invasive. I am interested in what's going on with her but I don't want to overwhelm her and I also don't want her to think I don't care if she doesn't hear from me bc she's giving him all the updates. I tend to overthink things (especially when dealing with hypersenstive people/situations), so please just tell me if I'm doing just that.

I'm going to try and put my oxygen mask on. I am guilty of forgetting when there's so much happening.   

Thanks GK

[Bloomer]

Just keep healthy boundaries, BPD plus addiction issues can leach the life out of you. Be very wary of the fact that not everything you are told will be true, both issues can cause desperate behaviors.

My partner has run out of charity/public funded detox units she has been banned from all 5 in our city now due to leaving early. The last one she OD on the second day with some meds she had snuck in. So this better had be the last time as there is nowhere left to go. In a perverse way the knowledge that there is no "safety net" left I think is adding to her resolve as she cant do it without detox.

These free detoxes generally took 3-4 weeks wait before admission, so during this waiting period each time she had "handed over" responsibility, she ceased all restraint and the problem rapidly accelerated like a month long bucks night. It was horrible. I believe as long as there is someone else available to fix her up and hand the issue to she did not have the discipline to dig deep enough.

That sounds incredibly tough for you to go through, since we have no control over other people. And when someone you care about is self-destructing, you really want to put them in a magic bubble. I am trying to keep my expectations low. Right now I believe she wants to get sober but I know this may be difficult and she might fail before she succeeds. When will you not be able to handle this situation? Do you have a boundary for the relapses?

 B.

[waverider]

Just keep healthy boundaries, BPD plus addiction issues can leach the life out of you. Be very wary of the fact that not everything you are told will be true, both issues can cause desperate behaviors.

My partner has run out of charity/public funded detox units she has been banned from all 5 in our city now due to leaving early. The last one she OD on the second day with some meds she had snuck in. So this better had be the last time as there is nowhere left to go. In a perverse way the knowledge that there is no "safety net" left I think is adding to her resolve as she cant do it without detox.

These free detoxes generally took 3-4 weeks wait before admission, so during this waiting period each time she had "handed over" responsibility, she ceased all restraint and the problem rapidly accelerated like a month long bucks night. It was horrible. I believe as long as there is someone else available to fix her up and hand the issue to she did not have the discipline to dig deep enough.

That sounds incredibly tough for you to go through, since we have no control over other people. And when someone you care about is self-destructing, you really want to put them in a magic bubble. I am trying to keep my expectations low. Right now I believe she wants to get sober but I know this may be difficult and she might fail before she succeeds. When will you not be able to handle this situation? Do you have a boundary for the relapses?

 B.

There are other issues on our plate at the moment she has stage 3C breast cancer, just had mascectomy and undergoing chemo. Her mental state is effectively in a state of shock, she is in extreme depression, let down completely by her own family's of lack support, smoking like a chimney non stop, and chronically addicted to opiate painkillers (oxycodene). Drink is so far from her mind, even if in desperation she turned to it, she would desperately want to be off it. she is fully aware that it is an evil enemy (It killed her dad)

The sad thing is the cancer was not picked up until late as she cancelled 2 specialist appointments as a result of not being able to turn up due to either being in detox or hospital due to ODs.

The point is all these things have just compounded mainly due to the underlying BPD and lack of responsible behavior, and ingrained denial. Even now she is not doing everything possible to increase her chances of beating this, and I would not be surprised to find secondary lung cancer or similar causing her demise.

With BPD one drama begets the next, and the rescuing can go on forever if you are not careful. So the boundaries I have are about how things affect me rather than what she actually does to help herself. The result of the boundaries so far has not stopped her "demise" as such but the projection on to me and my kids has all but stopped along with ensuing conflict.

So walking away is not a boundary defense mechanism for me, detachment from the consequences of the behavior are.

[Bloomer]

There are other issues on our plate at the moment she has stage 3C breast cancer, just had mascectomy and undergoing chemo. Her mental state is effectively in a state of shock, she is in extreme depression, let down completely by her own family's of lack support, smoking like a chimney non stop, and chronically addicted to opiate painkillers (oxycodene). Drink is so far from her mind, even if in desperation she turned to it, she would desperately want to be off it. she is fully aware that it is an evil enemy (It killed her dad)

The sad thing is the cancer was not picked up until late as she cancelled 2 specialist appointments as a result of not being able to turn up due to either being in detox or hospital due to ODs.

The point is all these things have just compounded mainly due to the underlying BPD and lack of responsible behavior, and ingrained denial. Even now she is not doing everything possible to increase her chances of beating this, and I would not be surprised to find secondary lung cancer or similar causing her demise.

With BPD one drama begets the next, and the rescuing can go on forever if you are not careful. So the boundaries I have are about how things affect me rather than what she actually does to help herself. The result of the boundaries so far has not stopped her "demise" as such but the projection on to me and my kids has all but stopped along with ensuing conflict.

So walking away is not a boundary defense mechanism for me, detachment from the consequences of the behavior are.

Geeze, that sound really difficult.   I'm sorry to hear you're going through all of that. How do you stay positive in all of this? That just sounds so stressful and upsetting.

 B.