BPD Sister -- Ongoing

[Depression = 72% of members]

It's been a while since I have been here -- so it seems a new post is suggested (the old thread is no longer hosted).

Basically, we are back at financial crisis again with our BPD sister.  And we alternately get messages asking for money (how much and for how long is not clear), and messages telling us how terrible we are and that she is ashamed to be a member of the family.  (The family is just us three siblings -- BPD sister, elder sister and me (the youngest).  We are in our fifties and sixties -- and live great distances apart.)

Another development is that someone is recommending she switch from Navane to Abilify -- although indications are are liver toxicity is going down.  Ability costs a bundle... . and although that seems to be one of the expense items, BPD sister also tells us she has gotten 100% medical coverage.  The basic facts just don't seem to add up on this, and other bits and pieces of information don't add up, either.

My other sister and I have been advised by a reputable therapist to not continue sending money on demand (as we have for decades).  So we have continued to tell BPD sister that we will consider financial support if all three of us can reach agreement on some basics -- like commitment to therapy with a reputable therapist, taking meds, sharing complete information, hiring a lawyer we all agree on to advise on the effect on BPD sister's SSD award, whether and how to set up a special needs trust and so on.  BPD sister flatly rejected an agreement in January, and then again a month ago.

This has been our consistent message for many months now.  There was a prior financial crisis in December.  BPD sister went silent, and apparently came through that crisis without a disruption in her lifestyle.  Now, six months later, she is telling us there is another financial crisis -- holding the line is rather difficult.  One of these days, there may indeed be a crisis.

Any thoughts or suggestions about how to hold the line in these situations?  Or should we just send money?

Many thanks.

Fatigued

[Fatigued]

It's been a while since I have been here -- so it seems a new post is suggested (the old thread is no longer hosted).

Basically, we are back at financial crisis again with our BPD sister.  And we alternately get messages asking for money (how much and for how long is not clear), and messages telling us how terrible we are and that she is ashamed to be a member of the family.  (The family is just us three siblings -- BPD sister, elder sister and me (the youngest).  We are in our fifties and sixties -- and live great distances apart.)

Another development is that someone is recommending she switch from Navane to Abilify -- although indications are are liver toxicity is going down.  Ability costs a bundle... . and although that seems to be one of the expense items, BPD sister also tells us she has gotten 100% medical coverage.  The basic facts just don't seem to add up on this, and other bits and pieces of information don't add up, either.

My other sister and I have been advised by a reputable therapist to not continue sending money on demand (as we have for decades).  So we have continued to tell BPD sister that we will consider financial support if all three of us can reach agreement on some basics -- like commitment to therapy with a reputable therapist, taking meds, sharing complete information, hiring a lawyer we all agree on to advise on the effect on BPD sister's SSD award, whether and how to set up a special needs trust and so on.  BPD sister flatly rejected an agreement in January, and then again a month ago.

This has been our consistent message for many months now.  There was a prior financial crisis in December.  BPD sister went silent, and apparently came through that crisis without a disruption in her lifestyle.  Now, six months later, she is telling us there is another financial crisis -- holding the line is rather difficult.  One of these days, there may indeed be a crisis.

Any thoughts or suggestions about how to hold the line in these situations?  Or should we just send money?

Many thanks.

Fatigued

[Up In the Air]

Welcome back! 

I find holding boundaries firm with the BPD incredibly difficult myself and I feel for you in your situation!

"My other sister and I have been advised by a reputable therapist to not continue sending money on demand (as we have for decades).  So we have continued to tell BPD sister that we will consider financial support if all three of us can reach agreement on some basics -- like commitment to therapy with a reputable therapist, taking meds, sharing complete information, hiring a lawyer we all agree on to advise on the effect on BPD sister's SSD award, whether and how to set up a special needs trust and so on."

I don't think this is unreasonable AT ALL, especially if you two are providing financial means. I certainly don't think you should just give in and send money... . for two reasons - one - it's so important to hold firm to the boundaries and agreement previously set up by your sister and yourself as it provides a realm of control in a complicated situation, and it also holds her (your BPD sis) accountable. Two - It's YOUR money. You have been generous in helping her in the past, you're willing to help her in the future if she agrees to your terms.

Does your BPD sister have trouble with crossing your boundaries or is she pretty respectful of them?

From my experience, the person with BPD will use a broken record approach to wear down the person or people they want something from until the person/people get so tired of the drama and complaining, etc, that they give in. It's a battle of wills, much like a child poking and poking to see how far they can push you.

I have found with myself that if I give in, I feel as if I've given away a little piece of my integrity for temporary peace, as they will most certainly be coming back around again.

In this case, I have used the broken record approach myself, "No, no, no, no." Over and over. My therapist suggested that an assertive approach helps best by saying something to the tune of: "I am more than willing to help you, but as (sister) and I have already told you, if we are to continue to help, you must agree to our terms. If you don't want to agree to our terms, then we can't help you financially. I will not discuss this with you again unless you're willing to agree to our terms."

Stay strong, it WILL pay off!

[Fatigued]

Up In the Air -

Many thanks for your note, and sharing the advice you received as well.  That advice is quite similar to the advice my sister and I have received, to hold the line.  It's not easy sometimes, particularly when we know that BPD sister could really use the money.

You mentioned that holding the line will pay off -- I do hope that happens with BPD sister. The alternatives are not pleasant to contemplate.

Thanks again.

Fatigued

[Up In the Air]

I've been mulling over this all day... . you mentioned the alternatives are hard to contemplate... . is your BPD sister self-harming or is she threatening you and your other sister with her life?

[Fatigued]

Up in the Air -

For some reason, the site was not working yesterday, and I could not respond.  Apologies for the delay and I hope that the delay has not cause you to worry... .

Thanks for your note, and for thinking of us (BPD sister, other sister and me).  You raise a good point, of course -- this time around, thankfully, BPD sister has not threatened or hinted at self-harm or suicide.  She has hinted about suicide in the past, and we have since lined up a local intervention service if that comes up again.

The concern is that this time, BPD sister is really without the funds she needs for the basics.  And because we are geographically separated (in my case, by an ocean), we just can't know what is truly going on.  The facts BPD sister reports about her situation change day to day (sometimes more than once in a day), and none of the numbers add up.  Then she will claim she cannot respond because her Navane-induced tremors don't allow her to type.  A couple of hours later, we get a rather lengthy email -- either the tremors went away or she has an unidentified "ghost writer".  We believe the latter is more likely, and we are concerned that this person is also coaching BPD sister in an effort to get money.

In the meantime, we have again held the line.  BPD sister responds with a flurry of email and voice mails, first agreeing, then not agreeing, and eventually making it all our fault (and being insulting in the process).  Now, after the latest insult, she told me I obviously did not have enough money to help her, and she would fend for herself.  If this holds, the pattern has just repeated -- on a six month cycle.  Meanwhile, we do the broken record (good analogy you made):  "if you agree to our terms, and provide complete information, we can help."

It seems in your case that this eventually worked out well for you and your BPD relative?  How long did that all take?  Any coping clues?  Keeping up with all this is becoming like a second job for my other sister and me.

All thoughts appreciated, and again, many thanks for your prior note.

Fatigued

[Up In the Air]

Hi there Fatigued,

No, I wasn't worried, though I was hoping that I gave you sound advice and then thought of the self-harming aspect. I always try to line up my advice/input to fit the situation. I'm so glad you and your sister have put something in place in case your BPD sister threatens her life.

In my case, it's my mother-in-law who has BPD. It's been quite a ride. She's high functioning and undiagnosed. The short version of the situation with her was that she had the entire family enmeshed and things were going swimmingly, then I came along and wouldn't allow her to take advantage of me, though I admit, I gave in more times than I'd like to admit. It's SO hard to not give in.

This shook things up a bit, as my DH grew the courage to de-tangle himself from the enmeshment and finally started saying 'no' to her bids for more money. He and his father had bought a house together before my DH and I met, and my DH had made arrangements to pay it back, much like a mortgage. She would manipulate us and coerce her husband into forcing us to pay higher amounts to them while simultaneously holding the house over our heads, threatening foreclosure at every whim. If we didn't we'd be 'punished', financially of course. None of the extra money was going toward our home and we told it was for 'expenses' or 'bills' for the house, even though we paid all utilities and taxes and such. We continually said no, that DH had had an agreement to a certain amount per month, but she would repeat over and over about how much she'd done for us or how much she tried to give us what we needed, how we must not care enough (the victim role). It was obvious that she was in her own reality.

I finally sought out a therapist and was overwhelmed with the light she helped shed on the situation. She helped show us how to assertively draw boundaries and reclaim our territory. It was not easy, didn't happen overnight, but it did help resolve the problem and we finally came to an agreement with them for payments. It took just over three years to come to an agreement.

Later, my DH was offered a job in another state and we moved, all of us in agreement to sell the house, pay off any debt owed to them, and the left overs would be ours. When we had an offer come through, they changed their minds, refused to cooperate, and we finally threw in the towel. We were in a weak spot unable to care for the home long-distance and just could not give any more time or money to them, so we transferred the house to them, and now it's theirs to deal with. We heard from family that they are thrilled to have the house. My husband, feeling betrayed and taken advantage of, has now completely cut off all communication and has emotionally disowned them. I'm sure we'll be into contact with them again at some point, but for now it's good to let things cool down.

So it's not exactly the same situation as yours, but somewhat similar.

I understand your concern for your BPD sister and her 'ghostwriter'. It would be awful for her to be taken advantage of as well. It's so completely hard to know what to believe when facts keep changing and it's frustrating not being able to trust her when you want to so badly. I will offer this: My T told me that recording the person and playing it back to them helps to hold them accountable. So if your BPD sister says that she didn't say something, then you can replay it to her and have her confirm whether she was lying or not. I wish I would have done this with my MIL... . it would have helped!

Does your BPD sister work? You mentioned an SSD award, so I'm assuming she gets assistance of some kind monthly? Does your other sister live in The States? Is she able to pop in and kind of check on her (not that it's her responsibility), I'm thinking that might give her an idea of the people or person your BPD sister might have as a ghostwriter.

The only coping clues I can offer as of today, are these: Do something for you... . don't check your email or voicemail if you can help it for a day or two, go for a walk, watch a funny movie, get a nap in, have a glass of wine, take a class and learn something new, even getting a massage can help de-stress (that's my 'drug' of choice) and get your mind off the situation. I'm a big prayer, I don't know if you're spiritual or religious, but I do find that it helps me to just 'Give it to God'.

Also, if the topic of your sister is taking over the conversation you have with your other sister, try talking about other things and making a mini pact that you'll focus on keeping a healthy and happy as-stress-free-as-possible relationship with her, it helps keep you both sane. It's so easy to get swallowed up by all this and then we're not helping anyone.

[Fatigued]

Up In the Air --

Many thanks for your supportive and caring response -- it truly helps.   The struggle with BPD sister continues, and we are trying to take time for ourselves as well.  As you noted, that's very important.

We're all three separated by geography, including my other sister in the US, so we have no way to just stop by (and we have no one to turn to in BPD sister's community).  So you're correct -- we have no way of knowing what is going on other than through BPD sister's self-reporting.  For a time, about  eight or nine months ago, BPD sister agreed to mediation (with a therapist she was then comfortable with).  That did not last -- BPD sister pulled the plug and went silent for several weeks.  So now we are trying to sort through fact and fiction remotely, based on inconsistent and sometimes directly contradictory piecemeal information from BPD sister.  But we're holding firm -- if she agrees, we will help.

Oh, and yes, the ghostwriter has made another appearance.  That email was troubling indeed -- it expressed a degree of love and sense that we've not seen from BPD sister for a good long time.  Thankfully, we did not rush to the bank and send money, although that was very tempting.  After an overnight wait, the old pattern reappeared, and a new twist on the current crisis come to the fore.  (Sigh.)

Yes, BPD sister is on SSD.  She refused to accept any help with that process -- we even offered to pay for a lawyer to help her (one that we were all comfortable with).  It now appears that her award is materially less than her maximum entitlement, and not sufficient for her to maintain her current lifestyle (rent is by far the biggest expense).   It also appears from what little we know that the date of her disability took no account of her mental condition (which argues for an earlier start date, with a retroactive lump sum award). Then she filed bankruptcy -- no news about that other than what we can find on the Internet. And she also refuses to appeal the amount of her SSD award.  It looks like we're just expected to fund her shortfall -- until her two part time "jobs" start generating income.  When?  How much?  Only she knows, but is not willing to say... . (sigh again).

BPD sister and I are to speak shortly -- honestly, I am not looking forward to that conversation.  I expect it to be draining (empathic responses to her situation, but holding the line).

Again, thanks much for sharing your narrative.  Although not exactly the same, many of the underlying dynamics seem quite similar.  And I do hope that your situation remains calm.

Warm regards,

Fatigued

[ScarletOlive]

Hey there Fatigued,

I hear in your posts what your username expresses-that sense of tiredness from such stressful situations. It must be very difficult knowing your sister is struggling financially, while remaining unsure of where to draw the line for yourself between helping and enabling.

It sounds like towing the line is tough for you? It is for all of us.   One technique that can be helpful is SET - Support, Empathy, Truth. You start about by showing you care for her, continue by recognizing how she feels, and end by offering your truth. This article gives a really good run down of it. TOOLS: S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

Perhaps you can explain that you want to help her, she sounds like she's struggling financially, and you need to know __ so you can help her out?

[Fatigued]

ScarletOlive --

Thanks for your message and the reference, both of which are helpful.  We have been following the SET technique as best we can (and with the benefit of the workshop threads) -- when we get to the "T" part, the response from BPD sister is usually anger, denial, snide remarks, talking over us or a combination of all of the above.  Then we try again the S and the E.  Arrival at the T, the same... .

And we've done as suggested, time and again -- explain that we want to help, that we understand she is struggling financially (and otherwise) and we can imagine that must be very difficult for her, and that we need to have accurate information about income and expenses and an agreement with her so we can help.

Well, on the last bits -- boom.  It all blows up.  We seemed to reach agreement during our conversation (about 24 hours ago now). The agreement was (1) we provide a new draft document by the weekend (based on the one that she blew up in December when it was nearly fully agreed), and (2) she would source a scanner to send the information about expenses (after a long discussion about how that was not possible for her).  Well, four hours after reaching that common understanding, here comes another communication -- scanner found (no indication of when bills will be scanned and sent) and she can't wait until the weekend.  Send money now.  SET gets us so far, but not to the finish line... .

A bit of additional color -- while this is going on with me, BPD sister is leaving serial messages with the other sister remarking that the bankruptcy lawyer believed her about expenses (but we ask for back up), then saying she was abandoned by the other sister when our mother passed away and the other sister returned to university (this being decades ago), and recommending a book about Jesus written by the Dalai Lama.

Other sister and I have now told BPD sister that we understand the circumstances are serious, so we will accelerate the preparation of the revised agreement (as early as Wednesday in the US, and no later than Thursday in the US), and suggested that the scanned documents be sent as soon as possible.  Digesting them will take a bit of time (and if experience holds, they will be incomplete and inconsistent, but we are ever hopeful).

So, the question is, when one can't get through the "T" step, is there any other technique that might help?  It seems that cycling on SET has become a spiral for us.

Again, many thanks for your reply -- the reference and the material is very helpful.

Is there something that could help to break the SET cycle so that T does not automatically default back to S and E?

Fatigued

[ScarletOlive]

Fatigued,

Hm yes I know what you mean. Getting stuck on the T can be like an endless loop. What do you do when your sister rages, uses biting sarcasm, or speaks over you? If it seems like things are going in circles, it's okay to take a step back and say, "We can talk about this when you're calmer," or "I hear what you are saying, and care about you. I deserve respect as I listen, so if you continue to yell, scream, [insert your word here], I will hang up the phone." Boundaries protect both of you from the loop, from blow ups, and from disrespect. This article might help you because it deals with circular arguments: How to stop circular arguments

The other thing that helps is DEARMAN, which stands for Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, Mindfully, Appear, Negotiate. Basically, you describe your view, express your feelings in I feel statements, assert what you want, reinforce it with the reward that comes from success, stay mindful of the goal, appear calm, and be willing to negotiate for the end goal. It's a bit more structured than SET for when you want someone to do something. COMMUNICATION: D.E.A.R.M.A.N.

[calisis]

Dear Fatigued,

I too have an older BPD sister (she does not accept the diagnosis) and she is currently working up to her next "crisis", which is what brought me back to this site - I just read article #02 and re-read articles #05 & #06 and watched the video on S.E.T... . need to work on rehearsing my S.E.T. dialogue and review/reinforce my boundaries (very important!).  The articles on this site have been so helpful for me in terms of understanding the disorder (to the best of my ability) and how I handle my relationship with her.

Reading your post, I found myself nodding along, as I have had much of the same or similar experiences as you, including your "bit of additional color" .  I have found the S.E.T. technique works pretty well for diffusing her tension, but I stop short of offering any "Truth" statements.  When my BPS sister gets nasty and surly, I have learned not to react but offer a listening ear and supportive and/or empathetic statements when I can.  I then continue to listen - by this time, she's calmer and nicer - and she usually presses me for advice (this is a trap! I've found it's a big mistake to offer advice, on the basis of 'anything I say or do can and will be used against me' so I often find myself responding (in a soft and kind tone) with statements like, "I can't answer that for you, only you can decide what's best for you."  I guess that's my fallback "Truth" statement.  Fortunately, she is on anti-depressants, which usually takes some of the edge off, and she does occasionally have short talk sessions with the doctor that prescribes them for her.  I have found that it's pointless to confront her on the BPD diagnosis in the hope of getting her into specialized therapy - this approach backfired on me and she became very defensive and screamed at me - so now I am just thankful that she has some kind of support from the doctor.

Not sure if any of this helps you, but just know that you are not alone.  And, make sure you take care of yourself, as Up In The Air said, do something for you - you don't have to answer the phone, etc.  This reminds me of one more comment I will make; one of my boundaries that I've set is with her is that, if the conversation gets too "deep"... . I'm not sure how to describe this but sometimes by BPS sister will want to veer the conversation in a way that's very uncomfortable for me, sometimes accusing or she says strange things that are melancholy and sort of mystical and just don't make sense... . I tell her that I am unwilling and incapable of discussing these things and that these are issues for her therapist, NOT me.

[Fatigued]

ScarletOlive, calisis --

Thanks to you both for the helpful and thoughtful posts.  The DEARMAN technique seems, in part, worth a go.  My other sister and I have been using portions of those ideas for a while.  The thread about stopping circular discussions seems right on point, though.  In the last few days, we've effectively walked away, not rising to emotional taunts and sarcasm, and drawing boundaries.  That stopped the barage of nasty emails for about a day, then more information came across about BPD sister's financial circumstances (in the form of her bankruptcy filing papers).

Well, sadly, it looks like a large chunk of change has gone missing -- to the tune of about four months of living expenses. Simply gone.  Where and to whom?  It falls on us to ask, and I do dread the response.  But ask we will.  Because we are concerned.

And BPD sister is back to outrage on a major point.  Our agreement requires her to be in therapy with a reputable therapist reasonably acceptable to us.  One week that's fine with BPD sister, the next we are nasty controlling horrid creatures for insisting on this.  The problem is that BPD sister has seen some "therapists" in the past that appear to be charlatans.  Truly freaky approaches to therapy, even if you could even call it therapy.  We do not want to fund or enable another of this ilk -- they just take money and don't help BPD sister one whit. Rather, they either stall improvement or entrench dysfunctional behavior.  BPD sister is of course free to see who she wishes to see.  We're just saying that if financial support is expected, the therapy we are effectively paying for cannot be another variety of the freaky approaches (and one of those was way, way, way off the charts).

In short, it looks very much like the same old pattern.  Crisis first (real or not not ascertainable -- now, if the excess funds are still available, there is no crisis, much like the eviction that was to happen in January but did not happen).  Demand next.  If demand not met on the spot, nasty.  If still not met, BPD sister shuts down all communication.  Until the next crisis... .

We're working to break the pattern, but it's not easy... . and each time, almost with each new piece of information, BPD sister loses credibility.  The information is inconsistent, contradictory and doled out bit by bit.  There's not much of a balance left in her credibility passbook.

(Still) Fatigued

[Fatigued]

Just a wee bit of an update.  We went back and forth a bit on the money.  Initially, BPD sister established a new communication protocol.  I email with any questions, then BPD sister calls to give other sister the answers and other sister and I take it from there.  That did not work well.  The information from BPD sister still did not add up -- literally.  That said, we opted to take her at her word for some of the items, bringing the missing balance from over six down to over three thousand.  According to BPD sister's other mostly documented information, with her SSD and SNAP, that amount would see her through nearly ten months of living expenses.  As you might guess, it took a couple of days to sort this out, do the math, and go back to BPD sister identifying and asking questions about the missing balance.

The response was as anticipated (dreaded).  Boom.  No more information can be provided.  I am stupid.  Other sister and I are in cahoots (we do support one another and proceed together each step of the way with BPD sister).  We don't know how to support BPD sister.  We don't know how to be family.  BPD sister will not be controlled by us.  And that's that, she is going her own way. (Yet, just two days ago, she had no money for food or medications.)

Bottom line is that she appears to have a "Plan B" -- and had one all along.  Yet another crisis -- one designed to elicit the most sympathy possible.  Throw in the attempt to communicate only with other sister by phone and we may have an attempt to play other sister and me against one another.  And when we questioned the missing balance, BPD sister calls to give other sister a piece of her mind and hangs up (no conversation permitted), then BPD sister can type again, and sends me a somewhat vituperative email, and walks away.  Communication shut down. Again.

So it is once again that "T" point that seems to blow it all up.

And we are left wondering what is really going on with BPD sister.  In the last weeks, she has seemed unusually civil (on and off, but that's an improvement over the usual).  And she has provided a fair amount of documentation.   But when we ask important questions with big amounts attached, she shuts the door.  It's like we've caught her with her proverbial hand in the cookie jar, and she's stormed off in a pout.

So, it seems there are a couple of possibilities.  One, BPD sister continues to expect money on demand with no accountability, without stating how much and for how long.  (Passively asking for lifetime support?)  Two, she is seriously impaired, and no longer has the ability to manage her basic affairs.  (The missing funds are missing and she can't remember where they went?)  Either one of these is very challenging -- it seems there is nothing to be done, other than express love and concern, and reiterate that with full accountability, and an agreement about support (how much, how long and under what conditions), we are willing to help.

Please tell me if any of you might have some insights, or other possible solutions?

Thanks ---

Fatigued

[ScarletOlive]

Fatigued, it sounds like you're doing your best to help your sister. That's all you can do.   It does seem that she is challenged by her illness, and it prevents her from functioning fully. You aren't responsible for her, and although you want to help her as much as possible, she has to want to cooperate. There are resources out there that can help her if things get dire and she refuses your help, so don't think you are abandoning her by making these boundaries.

Let us know how it goes. Keep trying, Fatigued. Please know that you are a good, loving sister and that although this is tough, you're doing the right thing by all of you.