How do they define love?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Just curious, alot of the stories on here have similar patterns when describing BPD behavior.

Soo... . How did your exBPD define "love"?

Has their view on what "love" is improve your view on love?

[Deleted]

Just curious, alot of the stories on here have similar patterns when describing BPD behavior.

Soo... . How did your exBPD define "love"?

Has their view on what "love" is improve your view on love?

[papawapa]

good feelings derived from a man that mask her inner pain

[Clearmind]

Love = Need

What is your definition of love Deleted given your BPD experience?

[clover528]

In one of my uBPDex's moments of clarity, he told me that he gauged my love for him by how much I needed him. That if I didnt need him I didnt love him. That he knew need wasnt a qualifier for  what love is about. That ne realized or knew I loved him regardless of whether i needed something from him or not but he couldnt help his feelings of distrust when he felt unneeded by me. This was before i knew he had symptoms of the disorder. Before i even knew this existed. We had recycled and he was angry for my not asking him for money or something of the like.  We were actually having a good conversation about it. This was his reply to why he thought i didnt love him.

[talithacumi]

In my experience, as clearmind noted, definitely need.

And my definition at the time was being needed.

Game, set, match!

[Conundrum]

They define love in the same fashion as we do, but they are not sustained by love in the same manner as we are--because love is not nurturing to them. That was taken away from them as very young children. Often it was a statutory crime. Imagine equating loving your parent(s) as being synonymous with resultant traumatic abuse. Presto, a significant statistical chance of developing a relational disorder.

What I learned from my pwBPd about love. That love transcends the status of a relationship.

[cska]

Deleted, its a very good question. I've pondered about that topic for quite some time.

Here are my ideas on that topic.

First off, how do I myself define love?

In my opinion, love can be broken down into 5 aspects:

1)Pleasant feelings associated with making a bond with another person (i.e. feelings of security, emotional warmth etc.)

2)Temporal consistency of the feelings

3)Desire to compromise in order to maintain the emotional bond

4)Mutual trust

5)Mutual respect

Other people's definition of love might be different, but most would agree that these five aspects are absolutely necessary for a healthy relationship.

In my experience, pwBPD feel the same emotions that nons associate with love (i.e. feeling of emotional warmth etc.), BUT these feelings are certainly NOT consistent (when they paint you black, they in essence become filled with hate towards you, and they alternate between painting you back and painting you white). Also, pwBPD they are unable to compromise, at least not without extensive therapy. (My gf would tell me that she tried to compromise, but her anxiety would prevent her from doing so.)Finally, pwBPD are unable to trust their significant others, because they always expect abandonment.And since pwBPD are incapable of trust and compromise, consequently, they cannot fully respect their partner

So in my understanding, pwBPD do experience love, but its not as full as the love that nons feel. Its not a complete form of love, but rather a superficial form of it. To them, love is a combinations of pleasant but fleeting emotions, and it is stripped of trust, respect, and compromise.

[VeryFree]

Love according to her:

unconditionally being there for her when she wants/needs you to be there in the most broadest sense.

[Scout99]

They define love in the same fashion as we do, but they are not sustained by love in the same manner as we are--because love is not nurturing to them. That was taken away from them as very young children. Often it was a statutory crime. Imagine equating loving your parent(s) as being synonymous with resultant traumatic abuse. Presto, a significant statistical chance of developing a relational disorder.

What I learned from my pwBPd about love. That love transcends the status of a relationship.

I totally agree with you here. It is easy to get fooled into believing that they don't know what love is or that they are faking it or can just be manipulative and whatnot... . But the truth is that their belief in love has been distorted due to not getting the primary needs met as young children... .

IMO most BPD crave love and search their whole life for the love that is strong enough to heal them and finally once and for all fill out the enormous void they carry inside... .

Even NPD's who could be described as hating love and finding love a fake, due to disappointment and deceit at a very young age, deep down inside still secretly look for the one love that will finally make them feel accepted for who they really are and not just for being "perfect" which is at the core of their distorted beliefs... .

However for both BPD's and NPD's alike the feeling of being in love, feeling passion and excitement, never lasts and the disappointment of the loss triggers their black and white thinking, their fear of abandonment, (BPD), or their lack of NS, (NPD), and then devaluation sets in... .

One could actually say that people with PD's in some ways put too much trust in the power of love... . To a point that becomes unrealistic... . And that in itself makes them appealing to people who have a very romantic image of love... . Since they offer love with somewhat bombastic measures in the beginning... .

[VeryFree]

Love according to me: I could mention trust, mutual respect, caring and so on. To be honoust: I really don't know.

I suppose it is love, when you keep feeling (and maybe act) like a happy puppy each time when you see (or think) about your loved one (wanting to jump around, wagging your tail, be petted and just have fun together   ).

[pari]

Love = Need

So true. It's their need for attention that defines love for them.

As they say love is selfless, but pwBPD don't think that way I believe. He did things for me out of love but got upset when I didn't return the gesture as he expected.

Sometimes I believe to think that since pwBPD are emotionally challenged. That's why they have some special powers, I mean the positive ones. While I was with him, he really made be believe that he loves me immensely and only thing he wants in his life is me. He did a great job in convincing me. I still believe he meant it. Probably it was beacuse I met his  Needs , which defines love for him.

[Numbers]

Well, after much pondering in times of nuclear fallouts, I would describe "their" definition of love as:

- for her to receive love means that her partner has an ability to unquestionably, unerringly and indefinitely satisfy her need for attention. Not in a sense that she needs constant flatter but in a sense that entire relationship needs to revolve around her. Unfortunately, she is quite inept to communicate her ever-changing needs, so on top of it all she expects that you have some supernatural ability to read her mind. Anything less leads to immediate devaluing.

- for her to give love means to grant someone the non-exclusive right to enjoy company of such a wonderful person. And frequent sex. To ask for anything more leads to defense through aggression and unending circular arguments.

If you found a way to improve yourself to the level required to satisfy the above, please let us know how 

[Cocoalover]

It was the third month in our r/s when one afternoon he sent a message ( hi love, I'm going out with " friends name" for a drink. Love you) then the day after I saw him , down, miserable with a begging face saying that he had taken two hookers the night before. I forgave him. But the word love became Bell Of Danger and never wanted him to say it to me. That was when he would use love!

[heartcoaster]

This answer is likely more complex than I understand, but it always felt like "love" was whenever I was doing everything (or most things) right.  If she could dictate where we went, who we visited, how long we stayed, the agenda, etc., and I was agreeable, it was "love to her".  The second I offered a differing opinion and tried to compromise on an issue, it was like I unleashed something wicked.  Reading on here, I've learned that compromising isn't a strong suit of a BPD and when we went through rough roads of not agreeing, etc., it sure didn't feel like there was much love to be had.

[Deleted]

Most of these posts are similar in the sense that

1. either our exBPD's view on love changes from time to time, usually a good idea of what love is during the idealization period then a real crappy view of what love is when our relationship is almost over.

2. They see love as you being there for them NO MATTER WHAT. If they cheat on you, abuse you verbally, HURT you, they make the craziest demands for you. Drop everything in your life (I don't care) and come take care of me- type of love.

I'm only 25 and I don't really know what love is in the sense that I have not experienced wha true love is all about. I can say this though, Love is as CSKA said

1)Pleasant feelings associated with making a bond with another person (i.e. feelings of security, emotional warmth etc.)

2)Temporal consistency of the feelings

3)Desire to compromise in order to maintain the emotional bond

4)Mutual trust

5)Mutual respect

The last two lines in my opinion are most important. Our BPDex did not have respect for us. I know mine did not. Looking back at the things she has done and said, I've come to realize that I didn't have respect for myself as well.

I think our idea of love is subject to change over time as we go through different experiences but the general outlook of it stays the same. Our exBPD will never even have a clue of what love is. They change their viewpoints on love baised on their mood or have a real sick view on love. As I mentioned before, my ex assoicated fighting, turmoil, chaos, crying, this whole dramatic "I HATE YOU, I LOVE YOU, I NEED YOU, YOU HURT ME, I LOVE YOU" scenario as true love and although I may have never experienced love, I can say that her interperation is 100% incorrect.

[jdcthunder14]

Love = Need

Exactly what I discovered through interacting with my ex after our breakup. Love as defined by most others is not what they feel.


I got an "I love you" and a "we are done" in the same 24 hours so kind of obvious that their "love" is not the same as ours.

[cska]

Looking back at the things she has done and said, I've come to realize that I didn't have respect for myself as well.

Yes, I've come to realize that as well. My ex did with me as she pleased, and I let her walk all over me. I think this realization was one of the most important things that has allowed me detach from her and begin to heal from the trauma that she put me through.

Basically, she made me suffer so much because I let her.

[tailspin]

 

We each define love based upon our earliest experiences of it.  Those who are mentally ill have a distorted view of love (and the world) and many times this is because of the abuse they endured as children.

Those with BPD both wish and fear love; it is the "thing" they most crave and that which causes them the most pain.  Love is the slippery bar of soap they can never quite grasp.  Their patterns of relating will reinforce the belief that love=pain and their lives will be a self-fulfilling prophecy in this regard.  They will continue to sabotage relationships by controlling the demolition to a predictable ending.  To them... .

Love is unpredictable

Love will always hurt you in the end

Love cannot be trusted

Love is conditional

tailspin

[Clearmind]

Love and sustainable love are two very different things. I agree we do learn about love based on our own childhood experiences. I have a BPD parent and an enabling parent. I defined love based on my enabling parent.

The issue with an enabler is that they tend to choose chaotic/toxic, if not BPD relationships - I did! Amongst that is pleasing the partner and walking on eggshells which leads to resentment. Its this resentment that I learnt from mother - I learnt that it was OK to pick apart your partner rather than accept them wholeheartedly.

So love is: two people in a relationship who are working on themselves to better the relationship. In a BPD/non relationship - I was feeding off my partners cues - I was not an independent self who knew who I was or what I wanted - I was boundary-less and would swap and change depending on my partners mood.

Love is not about wanting changing our partner. I wanted to change my BPD partner constantly - I wanted him to bend, not do what he did, punish him instead of walk away because we so not compatible. I wanted to make it work because I needed him. Need is not love.

Isolation is not love. My ex and I isolated each other - he because he feared abandonment and me because I didn't trust him. Trust leads to love.

To build a lasting relationship we need to feel vulnerable - be in touch with our emotions - allow our partner to breath, not fix, not rescue, not chastise, not put down, not stifle - allow them to be who they are and you be you - work towards the relationship not against each other.

Many of us were with a person who idealized us, chased us and we didn't even give a moments thought whether they were compatible - it was steeped in magical thinking, sex, need and talking up. It wasn't love.

[Cooper10]

This question consumed a lot of my mental and emotional energy during my relationship with my ex.  Towards the beginning of our relationship--before I understood anything about BPD and before we were throwing the "L" word around with reckless abandon--I explained in an email to him (in the wake of one of his outrageously hurtful moves): "I cared about you and wanted to do everything within my power to make you happy.  You liked me because of how it made you feel when you were with me."

Later I came to understand that he cannot receive or give love.  I define love biblically: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Love never fails."

These attributes were not present in how he treated me.  I think in brief moments, he got waves of butterflies and adrenaline.  But those moments were transient and fleeting.  That is infatuation.  That is not love.  He treated me without patience, without kindness, with dishonor, with selfishness, with anger, with dishonesty.  He did not take care of me.  He exploited my trust.  It failed.  No one is perfect, and no one can perfectly live in all of these attributes all of the time.  But these negative things were the rule in our relationship, not the exception.

Later, in an email I didn't send, I wrote: "I believe that love is not a feeling or an emotion, but a choice that transcends anger or frustration or exhaustion or illness."  That was not what he showed me.

At the very end, he hurt me outrageously for the umpteenth time.  In the heat of emotion in the aftermath I said, "Rest assured you never loved me.  You know how I know?  Because I could never do to you what you did to me.  The thought never even crossed my mind."  The only response he was able to utter was something to the effect of "yes, I made it clear how I felt about him."  Again, focusing on him.  Self-centered.  Not love.

[cska]

Cooper, I really like your post.

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.  Love never fails."

These attributes were not present in how he treated me.  I think in brief moments, he got waves of butterflies and adrenaline.  But those moments were transient and fleeting.  That is infatuation.  That is not love.  He treated me without patience, without kindness, with dishonor, with selfishness, with anger, with dishonesty.  He did not take care of me.  He exploited my trust.  

The biblical definition of Love is truly beautiful. That was the kind of love that I tried to give my girl. But she treated me in the same way your significant other had, and a relationship with that type of dynamic is not sustainable (at least not without losing a part of your sanity).

I've learned that for a relationship to thrive, BOTH parties involved need to have the same definition of love. But in my relationship, all I did was give, and all she did was to demand more and more. I'm glad I got out, otherwise I would have lost my sanity... .

[papawapa]

I picked up a book by Osho the other day. The title is Being in Love.

Love cannot be defined. It can only be experienced. There are three steps to experiencing love:

1. "get rid of your parents. And by that I don't mean any disrespect toward your parents, no... . And I don't mean you should get rid of your physical parents, I mean you have to get rid of your parental voices inside, your program inside, your tapes inside... . if you get rid of your parents from your inner being, you become free."

"people think that they can love only when they find a worthy partner - nonsense! You will never find one. People think they will love only when they find a perfect man or woman. Nonsense! You will never find them, because perfect women and perfect men don't exist."

"That idea too has been put into your mind - that unless you find a perfect man or perfect woman you will not be happy. So you go looking for the perfect, and you don't find it, so you are unhappy."


2. "don't ask for perfection; otherwise you will not find any love flowering in you. On the contrary, you will become unloving. People who demand perfection are very unloving people, neurotic. Even if they can find a lover they demand perfection, and the love is destroyed because of that demand."

You have no right to demand anything from anybody. If somebody loves you, be thankful, don't demand anything - because the other has no obligation to love you. If somebody loves, it is a miracle. Be thrilled by the miracle."

"Love - as a natural function, just as you breathe. And when you love a person, don't start demanding; otherwise from the very beginning you are closing doors."


3. "Rather than thinking how to get love, start giving. If you give, you get. There is no other way."

"That's how love grows. Give, and don't wait to see how much you can grab. Yes, it comes, it comes thousand fold, but it comes naturally. It comes on its own, there is no need to demand, it never comes. When you demand, you have killed it. So give. Start giving."





"A grown-up person is one who needs no parents. A grown-up person is one who needs nobody to cling to or lean upon. A grown-up person is one who is happy in his aloneness - his aloneness is a song, a celebration. A grown-up person is one who can be with himself happily. His aloneness is not loneliness, his solitariness is solitude, it is meditative."

"Become individuals, that's the first thing. The second this is, don't expect perfection and don't ask and don't demand. Third, give, and give without any condition - then you will know what love is."


My experience was that she is still a child. She never grew up. She needs someone to cling to and lean on, to do for her. I think you all that have pointed out love being tied to need are spot on. Since she cannot be alone she is not a complete individual and cannot experience love. She always expected me to be perfect and was not shy about pointing out all the ways I failed to be her perfect man. She also was constantly demanding things of me. She was definitely incapable of giving.

My original post in this thread was short and based on something she told me once. I asked her if she felt love when she was letting men use her for sex and she said yes. I know for sure that if I just met a woman in a bar and had spent a couple hours with her at most before using her for sex that there would be no love involved. Filling her need to escape her pain, providing a reprieve through the endorphin rush of an orgasm, relieved her pain temporarily and that is why she equated being used for sex as feeling love.

[Conundrum]

It's been interesting reading these responses, because I'll venture that our perspectives on love are greatly influenced by our ages, expectations, and degrees of hurt. Romantic love is the touchiest of subjects because it is conjoined with the idyllic notion of lifelong commitment. It is so aspirational, goal oriented, and often defines mutual life paths. The stakes can be extremely high.

As I've grown older, the goal oriented aspects of any potential romantic attachment seem less important. I've been married. I've had my children. My 7 year relationship with my exSO, domestically worked--and then it didn't. I'm not devastated. I accept her. She's still my friend, albeit a beautiful young mess. I think it's very difficult to embrace love and compassion for a pwBPD when one carries great hurt in their hearts. Let it go, if you can.

Whoever has read "Stumbling on Happiness" will be familiar with the value placed on experiential consensus. Is it really possible to read these boards and not reach the conclusion that the majority of pwBPD (untreated) will make very difficult spouses, SO's, life partners etc. But then we despise them for their essential natures. We wind up taking their words so seriously, but if anything they resemble the mythical archetype of the "trickster." It is their "way." Let them be. We voice so little appreciation for their divergent natures, because we desperately desire congruity from incongruent people.

Lastly on love:

If you child runs away from you, do you still love them?

If your favorite dog runs away from home, do you still love them?

If your pwBPD runs away from you (via their actions), do you still love them?

The desire to infinitely attach is a possessory interest. That domestic contract, ergo marriage etc., can never bring happiness with a "trickster." Play with them, love them, befriend them... . but desiring dependability from them, is like asking Apollo and Dionysus to jointly build a house made of straw. It's always going to be blown down when the big bad wolf comes knocking at your door.

[papawapa]

I think number 2 is the key to why they eventually will always split their lover black. In the beginning while idealizing they see perfection. But at some point they realize that person is not perfect and the love they felt dies.

[Deleted]

These are all wonderful posts. It seems that perhaps we have benefited one way or another from these hellish relationships. We now at least have a template for what love is and hopefully strive for that.

Clearmind bought up a good topic with "love and sustainable love are two different things"

With all the reading I've done this past year, I could assume that my BPDex loved me. This is not me talking from a state of denial or wishful thinking. BPD fear abandonment. I know she was petrified about losing me. I recall one night in which we made "love" she just hugged me so hard, kissed me over and over and had tears of joy. Not going to lie that was wonderful. BPD or not as a human I will always treasure that experience.  They just cannot sustain love. Their fear overrides their normal ability to function in a relationship. Fear+BPD>love. And it's something that I have accepted. The few moments of normalcy and perhaps clarity coupled with that night we made love does not excuse or mitigate the relationship as a whole. The abuse, passive aggressive words, the relationship itself is solid proof the love that she provided was not sustainable nor was it normal love. I dunno, hope I'm making sense.

[scuba02]

After thinking about this for a while free of my BPDex its becoming much more clear... . Love to them is a feeling of need and in turn being wanted by someone/something new... . Hence leaving me and being in love with the new bf two days later... . I came to this conclusion (which is further supported on these boards) with my own logical thinking and also my interpretation of love... . I remember early on in my r/s when she started throwing the "love" word around, she would ask me, do you love me? I said a number of times, to me love is something you grow in to... . You aren't just in love, but after a period of time, one day you wake and say "i'm in love with this person"... . To me it would more "catch you by surprise" over a period of time... . I didn't fall in love with my ex wife over night... . We grew together and in turn feel in love... . To me my BPDex r/s could never go anywhere because, though the sex was great we could never get emotionally close, which leads to love... . As hard as it is, i'm beginning to accept the fact that I was "needed" not "loved"... . I showed in it's simplest from in our relationship... . I was always taught to ask "how are you doing" not "what are you doing"... . "how" is based on love and compassion for the other "what" is based on need... . unfortunately I was always asked the later by my BPDex!   

[Undone123]

Love is toxic enmeshment... . Interdependence doesn't come into it. You can't have your own friends, space, time, etc. They want the same air you breath. They want you 24 7 and anything less is not good enough. They want to be involved in every aspect of your life, otherwise they stop feeling close to you. But you must comply or else you don't love them.Love is making you suffer for setting a healthy boundary, but then making you suffer more for not upholding it.

It is need.

It is not love. It is enmeshment. To them, they don't want you to succeed, they do not want you to enjoy life,unless they are there with you, you are there for them... . They want every aspect. Family, work, friends, hobbies, everything.

[allinthesmall]

Great question.   

My H refuses to define anything. He doesn't want to be held to it. I think it risks him failing in some way.

Cooper... . My r/s with my H started the same way. I think he only "loved" me because he liked being liked and he knew other men liked me.

Undone123... . well said.

[Undone123]

It's "What is love to us?" that is the question I am asking myself!

What is the difference between love, and codependency?

[eniale]

Cooper10 --

Wow, thanks for reminding me of the biblical text; it says it all.  My ex had all that from me.  He told me "I can feel the love."  At the end (after he cheated while asking me to always be faithful to him) he said he knew I loved him.  So love was not enough for him.  Perhaps he both wanted it and feared it at the same time, fear won out, and impulsively he went after another woman.  He told me many, many times that he loved me, that I was the only woman he wanted, but actions speak louder than words:  he neither respected me nor valued the trust I had in him.  That's what I told him in my last communication with him.  I don't want a person whom I can't trust, who lies, does not respect me, has no honor & does not see my trust in him as having value.  Bottom line: whatever his definition of love is, he told me he had it from me, but was incapable of the mutuality necessary for a successful relationship.  It was a one way street for him.