lies... lies... a d more lies

[lovesjazz]

I read everyones posts everyday. It just is so depressing and breaks my heart.  Our BPDs, 26, major problem is lying. I am truthful when I say he lies 90% of the time.  We have such a hard time with this. When we confront him , he goes into a rage and stops talking to us for a few days. How can you help someone with validation or any kind of help when you know what they are saying isnt true

His lies have ruined every aspect of his life.  Any one else have this oroblem?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jellibeans]

My dd16 was born lying... . she has done this since very little. I try not to get mad but it is the one thing that really bothers me. When I look into her eyes and tell her I know she is lying and that this is the time to tell the truth and she continues to cling to the lie is the most disheartening thing. It just breaks my heart and makes me feel like she really isn't trying to change BUT that is probably not true... . she lies probably for a variety of reasons... . she doesn't want to disappointment me... . she can stand the truth... . has shame about her actions etc... . If I feel she is lying I try and validate her feeling but the truth statement will be that I know she is lying. Try to be calm and without emotion.

I don't have a solution to lying but I put rules and boundaries in place which make it hard for the lying to begin. Recently my daughter wanted to go sleepover at a friends... . my rule is that I must meet the parents and talk with them regarding the sleepover etc... . my dd16 doesn't like this rule and get very upset but I stick to my guns and it always seems like the evening plans change in some way and all is good. I thnk I would try and look at what things your ds is lying about and try and set some boundaries.

[lovesjazz]

Thank you jellibeans for your advice. I ws beginning to think we were the only ones with this problem. Our BPDs lies most of the time... . over anything. It is really destroying his life. He is aware of it, but doesnt seem tobe able to do anything about it.

[mggt]

Dear lovejazz, my d also lies constantly I find it so difficult to believe a single word she says .  She has cried wolf so many times I have lost count to me very serious lying because I told her someday you will be telling the truth but no one will believe you so scary.  She lies about anything and everything and when she does not have to I have found out this is very common with bps and so sad take care

[Rapt Reader]

Hi, lovesjazz   

I actually don't find lying to be a problem with my dBPDs36, but my uBPDmil has "lied" for the whole 42 years I've known her. Or, at least I thought she was just a consummate liar... . Since coming here and learning about BPD, I've come to the realization that my MIL's perception of reality and emotionalism is so skewed in the opposite direction to actual reality, I do believe that to her what she says is always the truth. I really believe that what she says about the past, and even the near past and present, is true for her because it feels true to her; if it wasn't true, then why would she be feeling the way she does about whatever it is she is talking about (in her mind)?

I have come to see that these stories that we KNOW are not right are being told in such a way to make her look better than reality would allow. I get the feeling that she needs this for her own version of her own self-image; maybe the real truth is either too painful for her psyche to accept and she unconsciously changes it to see herself in a better light, or maybe her perception of reality has just turned something that isn't true into reality for herself, and the lie is not conscious.

Here's an example... . My MIL had 5 kids. The story that she has always told is that she nursed all of her kids except my Husband (child #2). My husband heard this story since he was a little boy, and the whole family has known this to be the truth. I've heard this story for 42 years. Accepted fact. Now, just last Sunday my husband and I were at my MIL's house because my younger, non Son34 and his uBPDw were there with their newborn (my first grandchild!), so that we could all see the baby for the first time. (yaaaaay!   ). Anyhow, DIL is nursing, and in a conversation my MIL says that "I nursed all 5 of my kids!" Huh? My husband and son say: "I thought that I/Dad was the only one you didn't nurse?" She says "No--I nursed all of them!" I say carefully... . "You've always said that [my Husband] was the one you couldn't nurse because he was born in the summer [none of the others were] and you had to work on the farm and so you had to bottle-feed him so his grandparents could take care of him... . "

She sorta floundered--visually confused--and then said "Well, I couldn't nurse him as long as I did all the others, but I did nurse him for a few days so he could at least have gotten the colostrum... . " Well, this is a VERY new story; never told and never heard before. Funny thing is that my Husband (who should know better!) said after we got home: "It's good to know she at least nursed me for a little while; I've always felt short-changed that I was the one who missed out... . " Hahahahaha! He really does know better than to believe this new story, but since it makes him happy, I don't press it. My take, though, is that this new reality for her is because she wants to look good in her grandson's wife's eyes... . We'd been talking about nursing because she is planning on doing it for a few months at least, I had nursed both of my sons for a long time each (15 months for dBPDs36, and 22 months for S34), and MIL wanted to be a "good Mom" too... . I think she really wants to believe that she did the "right thing" for ALL her kids, so this is her story now and she's sticking to it!

Anyhow, just a different way to look at BPD lying... . I really only got to this interpretation after last Sunday. I've always seen my MIL's "lying" as intentionally self-serving and/or malicious; now that I understand a whole lot better how her mind works,  I'm not so sure... .

[pessim-optimist]

She sorta floundered--visually confused--and then said "Well, I couldn't nurse him as long as I did all the others, but I did nurse him for a few days so he could at least have gotten the colostrum... . " Well, this is a VERY new story; never told and never heard before.

... . My take, though, is that this new reality for her is because she wants to look good in her grandson's wife's eyes... .

MIL wanted to be a "good Mom" too... . I think she really wants to believe that she did the "right thing" for ALL her kids, so this is her story now and she's sticking to it!

Anyhow, just a different way to look at BPD lying... . I really only got to this interpretation after last Sunday. I've always seen my MIL's "lying" as intentionally self-serving and/or malicious; now that I understand a whole lot better how her mind works,  I'm not so sure... .

Hi Rapt Reader,

I agree with you that pwBPD perceive reality differently, so if they are telling a different story that anyone remembers, it could well be that that's how they remember it. At other times there's lying to make themselves look better etc.

I have had this conversation with my husband, who thought I took his d (my sd32) for a pathological liar. And I said, "Not at all. Sometimes she lies, yes. But most times she misunderstands and/or mis-perceives, and exaggerates because of her sensitivity. As a result, I simply never can rely on what she says as fact."

I do not feel ill feelings toward her for this. However, I routinely speculate about different possible scenarios, tone down and double check her statements, when I can. I validate her feelings, but I am VERY CAREFUL before I act based on any of her information, always ready to switch direction.

Can I be the   's advocate here for a bit, though? Of course, no one can be absolutely sure, what exactly happened regarding your husband as an infant, unless you have a separate eye-witness... .

So, could it be that maybe your MIL did nurse him for a few days, and then bottle-fed him, and felt bad about it her whole life, and in those days that nursing was a long-term situation, everyone would have laughed at your MIL and said that a few days don't count; so she felt bad about not being able to nurse him and told the story as such for all those years, and now, that your DIL is nursing and you have nursed your children, MIL did indeed want to look good and said that she nursed all of her kids (even if for just a few days)?

I mean, you could be just as easily RIGHT, that MIL was caught in a blatant lie and wanted to salvage the situation.

Rapt Reader, yours actually a good example of how there is often a need for us to know when to pick our battles. Some details just aren't worth pursuing... .

[lovesjazz]

Thank you all for replying.I do agree that most of the lies center around him looking good in all situations. It makesme ill and sad for him at the same time. He also never really accepted his adoption.  I feel it affected his self esteem.

[Kate4queen]

I wonder why my 22 yr old son lies all the time too, even about the smallest thing. I'm come to the conclusion that he doesn't see it as 'lying'. In order to live with what goes on inside his head, his pain and hurt and rage, he just has to reinvent what happens. Once I realized that the lying actually had nothing to do with me and was just a coping strategy I stopped confronting him and getting angry about 'the Truth' because even though I'm right, he's never going to accept that because he can't.

That's pretty sad.

I know the truth and now that is enough for me. I just can't waste the emotional energy trying to convince him otherwise and, to be honest, anyone who believes his lies? Well they aren't really my friends are they?

I sympathise.

[DivDad]

You need to keep a chonological log of everything.  Every text, email and conversation.

And every distortion and lie.

Mainly for your own sanity.

I found it be a revelation... . and a pattern.

Find some friends to confide in.

Blines will isolate you... . and... . when living with a Bline... . you will come to realize that  what you think is the "norm"... . is actually bazaar.

Only your normal friends can keep you grounded.

[FaithfulHope]

My DDBpd age 21 lies ALL THE TIME.   She mainly lies to manipulate situations to the way she wants them.   She has been doing this since early childhood.   It's horrible because we can't believe anything she says.   When we discuss her I can't tell you how often the word 'allegedly' is uttered.   She is a masterful liar and manipulator,  and dangerous with her lies.  She is a Casey Anthony type liar.   I usually am the one who sees right through her lies and calls her on them... . but in recent months I have decided to try as best I can just to let her lie to me and not call her out on it.  It only causes an argument and I am way past the point of getting through to her to change her behavior.   I now just try to keep the peace.   I definitely had alot of anger and bitterness over her lying when she was younger, prior to her diagnosis.   I took it personally when she would blatantly lie to us... . her family... . the only ones who were truly trying to help her.   But now I just let her say whatever and I try my best to just love her and continue to pray for her.

[vivekananda]

I think all pwBPD lie. I think there are two reasons and they merge into one. As said before they have a distorted view of reality.

My classic example from my dd now 32 is that she says I took her most loved toy from her when she was little and just threw it out.

1) it was never her bestest toy ever, she hardly gave it attention.

2) it was a teething toy that was around when she was a baby.

3) she saw it in a great photo of her at about 3 mths and asked about it and where it was.

4) When we moved house, I gave her old toys and clothes and stuff to the opportunity shop, as you do. She was about 3 then.

She saw the photo of her and it is gorgeous, her emotions were moved. I think she looked at this time in her life as idyllic and wanted to recapture that idyll, hence where is this toy now?

The other reason is that they learn they can get away with lying, it gets them what they want. They can do something wrong, then lie about. You can't know the truth , so they 'get away with it'. They exaggerate a situation and get a response from them that makes them feel better, so they learn to manipulate the truth to get what they want.

It's complex but it's simple. Our task is not to call them out necessarily, that is not so important with our adult children (although it may be), our task is to be careful and validate their feelings which does not mean we accept that they are saying the truth at all. Their truth is more about how they feel, isn't it?

cheers,

Vivek    

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[lovesjazz]

I have too stopped calling him on his lies. It really does no good. His lies, at 26, have cost him so much already in his life... . so sad.

[heronbird]

Its not lies. Well it is, but its for different reasons than people without BPD do it.

It is all because of the severe shame that they feel, lies, or just hiding their shame. We have to try to understand in order to deal with it.

And if its lies, well I just treat everything as a lie now, but I dont care. If she has had a bottle of vodka with pills and says she has not, why do I care if its true or not, I have to deal with the consequences and make sure she is ok.

I would just have loads of arguments and conflict if I kept trying to correct her lies. I dont pretend to believe her mind you.

So if she says, "you do believe me, dont you" I ask her why its so important that I believe her and gear the subject to something else, I want to be effective not right.

I love what Valerie Porr has to say on this subject, it really helped me a lot.

[FaithfulHope]

Heronbird,  where do I find what Valerie Porr said on this topic?

I wish my dd was lying only from shame.  Sadly she lies mostly to manipulate things to her advantage.   For example, last night we got a call from her job, McDonalds, that she just started about a week ago.   Although she doesn't live with me she gave them our number and they were looking for her as she didn't show up for her shift.   This happens with all her jobs.  Anyway, I texted her to ask her why she didn't make it to work and she said that they called her in the afternoon saying they didn't need her (We have heard that a million times also).   But I just said ' Oh ok, well they were looking for you'.  I didn't push it further as it won't make a difference but it could get her angry with me.   Just not worth it anymore.

Mine also lies due to distorted reality like Vivek  states above.  She remembers things very differently than the way they actually happened.   

[js friend]

Heronbird,  where do I find what Valerie Porr said on this topic?

I wish my dd was lying only from shame.  Sadly she lies mostly to manipulate things to her advantage.   For example, last night we got a call from her job, McDonalds, that she just started about a week ago.   Although she doesn't live with me she gave them our number and they were looking for her as she didn't show up for her shift.   This happens with all her jobs.  Anyway, I texted her to ask her why she didn't make it to work and she said that they called her in the afternoon saying they didn't need her (We have heard that a million times also).   But I just said ' Oh ok, well they were looking for you'.  I didn't push it further as it won't make a difference but it could get her angry with me.   Just not worth it anymore.

Terry~jo You were right not to push it further. My frustration now isnt dd's lies anymore it is the secrecy she seems to have all of the time. It upsets me more than anything that she even gets family members involved in keeping  secrets that always end up causing friction in the end.

Im not saying I mind the lies I just dont let them bother me like they used to.ive gone beyond caring about them anymore.  I really think it should be part of the dxs of BPD. We all have had many similair experiences of the lying... . so it must be part of this disorder. My dd's lying falls into 3 catergories... . manipulation,shame, and disortion of reality in no particular order.I just see them now as a symptom of a bigger picture. With all her lies I dont argue the fact anymore because it gets us nowhere. DD would often get annoyed and I would just be exhausted trying to prove a point so now I dont do it... . for example;

unbeknown to me dd hadnt been attending college for a few weeks. Anyway the staff call me because they are getting a little concerned and say that they have been calling dd to find out when she will be next in but it is just going to voicemail. So dd comes in at the time  I would expect her home after a day at college and I give her the message. She is adamant that she HAS been going to college and has just come from there. She even offers me a name and number for me to call to check.

Anyway I dont bother as Ive heard it all before. Turns out later speaking to my mom that dd spent the day with her, but told my mom another story why she wasnt at college... . day off I think it was.  

Im so used to hearing " heres a number or a person, you can call and check" now that I dont bother because knowing my dd she has already preapred that  person to lie for just incase I do call.  

[js friend]

Heronbird,  where do I find what Valerie Porr said on this topic?

I wish my dd was lying only from shame.  Sadly she lies mostly to manipulate things to her advantage.   For example, last night we got a call from her job, McDonalds, that she just started about a week ago.   Although she doesn't live with me she gave them our number and they were looking for her as she didn't show up for her shift.   This happens with all her jobs.  Anyway, I texted her to ask her why she didn't make it to work and she said that they called her in the afternoon saying they didn't need her (We have heard that a million times also).   But I just said ' Oh ok, well they were looking for you'.  I didn't push it further as it won't make a difference but it could get her angry with me.   Just not worth it anymore.

Mine also lies due to distorted reality like Vivek  states above.  She remembers things very differently than the way they actually happened.   


[/quot

[js friend]

Sorry having  abit of trouble posting... . laptop keeps logging me out.

so anyway My first example not going to college I would say covers lying for shame. My second example of many... . dd Asks me for a lift for an interview. says she is worried about being late so I give her a lift there.She tells me not to wait. Anyway later Im asking her how it went and she is very vague... . cant seem to remember much about it... . questions, answers she gave. Later I find out  out there was no interview at all. DD had gone there to meet some boy all dolled up!  

I think that covers manipulation

... . and the retelling of events Ive had quite a few of those too. Heres one  

Dd claims to friends that she was born in another country. She even has it on her FB page. She chose to studied that language at school as a refresher (or as I see it... . to convince others that it is her native language.)

[heronbird]

Terry Jo.

Valerie Porrs book is really brilliant about lying and she also covers manipulation very nicely. It will help you. She also talks about not jumping into the problem pool with them. If someone is drowning you shouldnt jump in to save them because you will both drown.

If you just get Valeries book and look up lying, she calls it bullsh**ing, she says it is not lying. I was so relieved to read that, yes it is most of the time.

I recognise dd sees things differently too and she believes her lies a lot too.

[vivekananda]

It helps to read up a bit about shame too. Shame is a deep emotion, a powerful emotion. It is more than guilt, it is irrational and illogical and overwhelming.

I know that if I had BPD and felt shame and if lying would help ease the pain of my shame, I would lie easily.

Vivek    

[pessim-optimist]

I know that if I had BPD and felt shame and if lying would help ease the pain of my shame, I would lie easily.

Me probably too, buti would be freaked out that my lie would be found out... . And THEN what?   

[heronbird]

Pessim, I think they get used to it. One lie leads to many too doesnt it.

Viv, I like what you said about shame. You said very wise things there.

Valerie Porr said when was the last time you felt shame? If you think about it, probably as a child. Its the sort of feeling you feel when you wet the bed as a child or something.

Thats when I realised that is a horrible feeling. I can empathise.

Also, I know someone whos dd is displaying serious symptoms of BPD, I believe she has had the diagnosis of BPD too amongst other things. Well her mum and dad treat her as if she is just an attention seeking spoilt brat who lies all the time. They are making her worse and worse every day. So we have to try to understand dont we. Her dad keeps saying all she needs is a good wack and they tell her that a lot too, she usually goes and self harms. I dont know where this one is all going to end up but the parents wont listen to me. They are doing it all wrong

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithfulHope]

Wow, such great comments here... .

I definitely will get that book.   Thank you!  

J's friend - I love the examples of all three types of lies!   We get them all as well!  We also have heard the 'you can call and check' line a million times too!   I can't tell you how helpful and great it feels to be among people who really know what we are going through!   Finally after all these years of feeling so very alone.

I need to learn more about the shame piece.   The only emotion I can truly see that my dd feels is anger.   And lots of it.  

Here is an example for you... . I'd like to know what you think... .   The first time we discovered our DD lying to us... . not just once but many times without one blink of an eye... .  she was 8 years old and in 3rd grade.   She is our oldest child of 3.  She is our only daughter.   She was/is a hot ticket.  Always on the go always happy.   Always in charge of everything... . no matter who she played with, she decided what was being played.   We used to joke that she was a master manipulator when she was 4  because our middle child never got to watch Barney because DD was tired of him by then and she would talk him into something that she wanted to watch.

Anyway, she has always been a bright girl and did just fine in K thru 2nd grades.   I did see that she would easily give up on her homework assignments and come to me... . I don't get it.   Well all I had to do was tell her to reread it and she then completed it just fine.   She just didn't want to do the work.   Anyway, as 3rd grade rolled around, she came home with papers to do which we made sure she did.  I would ask her if she had any tests to study for.  The answer was always 'No'.   It seemed odd to me that she had no tests but I believed her and had my hands full with two little boys, one was a newborn.   Anyway we had the first parent/teacher conference and I will never forget her teacher saying 'she does very well, but she would do even better if she took her book home to study for tests'.     WHAT?   WHAT TESTS?   We were floored.   That was just the beginning of our journey... . it just got worse and worse every year.   Even back then she just refused responsibility... . it hasn't changed a bit to this day... . Age 21.   She never felt bad for lying, she never worried about lying or the consequences.   Nothing mattered to her enough to do what was expected.  

I'd love to get your thoughts on that story?   Thanks so much!

[lovesjazz]

Your dd sounds just like my ds... . verybright... . doesnt want to work for anything and doesnt take responsibility. Lies about everything... . has been in jail... etc, etc... . you are not alone.

[FaithfulHope]

LovesJazz,

As sad as it is to have a child you love with all your heart turn out like this, it's so comforting to know you aren't alone.   

I am sorry to hear about your son. 

Mine has been arrested but so far has avoided jailtime.  However I think that will change soon.  She still makes such bad choices.   However I would much rather have her land in jail where I know she has shelter and food, than to have her die.  I worry so much about her telling the wrong lie to the wrong person.  Her mouth gets her into verbal confrontations all the time.  I sometimes think there might be some physical arguments also.  But my fear is that she is going to anger the wrong person and get stabbed or shot.   I don't want this life for my child but everytime I have bailed her out of her messes to avoid the trouble heading her way, she just goes right back to it.  She never learns any lessons from her mistakes.   I think she enjoys living on the edge.  The chaos and the drama.  The types of things I cannot take myself.  It's very sad.

But I need to just look at each day as a blessing and just love her.   And PRAY for her.   

Thanks for the reply.

[caulene]

Shame is painful but necessary - it's what motivates change - a desire to do things differently.  If you consistently lie to avoid shame then the pattern is going to be repeated.  Is it that they feel pain more than the rest of us - or - is it that they just don't want to feel any negative emotions period.  Is it sensitivity or extreme cowardice?

[vivekananda]

Here are two short articles that may shed some light on the discussion. There is more to shame than we understand, I believe. Let us know what you think, ok?

Kristalyn Salters-Pedneault on Shame

Randi Kreger on Shame

cheers,

Vivek   

[angeldust1]

Dear lovjaz,

Regarding the lies, Yes yes and yes,  that is the  biggest part of BPD,  I have a problem with.

  Why do they lie when the truth will work.

I read once that when they are in a rage they kind of "zone out" and they really don't know exactly what happened,  because in a sense they weren't really there.  So as they relate the story or  experience they just sort of "fill in the blanks" as they go along.  That is at least a reasonable explanation for that scenario.

But if that's not the case,  why do they  lie for no reason,  I have no answer for.  I can tell why they rage though... . it is because they have been caught in the lie,  and they do not want to "own up" or take responsibility for anything in their life they do wrong. They do not accept that they have a problem so... . they lie to themselves.

Hope this is a bit helpful.

[vivekananda]

Hiya... .

regarding rage/anger, there is probably more to that as well.

People with BPD feel intense pain caused by the 'psychic mess' in their head. They feel anger because to them it seems that the ones they rely on - their loved ones, are neglecting their needs, especially their emotional needs. That's why validation is such a powerful tool for us, it helps us acknowledge their emotional needs and helps us support them.

Our world of logic doesn't give us the answers, we are dealing with a disorder of the disconnect between the emotional mind and the logical mind.

nothing is straightforward, is it?

cheers,

Vivek    

[Dibdob59]

Hi

I agree with Vivek  that the 'loved ones' suffer as rage and anger have been occurring in our family for years.

I have been married to my H for 35 years and have only recently joined these boards and read about BPD. As a result I am convinced he is a uBPD. To my greater distress, a recent serious traumatic event appears to have severely triggered my adult son (29) and I am now also sure he is uBPD. My 32year old D agrees with my fears.

My H and my S had a huge bust up on our front lawn this afternoon. H was exhibiting bizarre behaviour and then denying it and lying about what he had done (almost set fire to my uBPDS truck) which ended up stuck undriveable in the middle of the road. My uBPDH then decided to get in uBPDS other vehicle and use this to ram the truck off the road back into the driveway. Complete chaos then ensued with utterly foul language (F and C words which are never the norm in our house) being yelled. Absolutely awful, so embarrassing and my stomach is still churning 8 hours later. My GD7 was in the house although I hope she didn't understand or hear all of what went on.

I am at my wits end with the lying and raging. This disorder destroys families and my daughter and I are becoming increasingly unwell trying to cope with the pair of them.

There is no reasoning with them at the time and little response after the event.

D

[vivekananda]

Hi Dibdob59   ,

What a turmoil of emotions that sort of chaos causes. I expect it will take days for you to calm down. What do you think the emotions you feel now are? Are you more angry and hurt or is it more confused and unsettled? How would you describe how you feel, can you tell us? I suppose you understand that we have all experienced similarly distressing events in our own lives.   

The first thing we learn here at bpdfamily.com, is to take care of ourselves. Can I suggest you and your daughter begin to actively focus on that for a bit. Do you have a therapist you can consult? Do you have any resources that you can rely on for face to face support? Is your wider family helpful?

Valerie Porr wrote "Overcoming BPD" this is an excellent book for you and your daughter to read as an introduction to what BPD is about and what you can do. It is a part of my self care program to re read it from time to time. I highly recommend it. You are familiar with the Tara Centre, I noticed, there are online seminars you can do there:

tara4BPD

Of course there are lots of resources here on this site that are most helpful. Explore to your hearts content. If your daughter wanted to, she might be interested in posting on the 'Healing' page where her own special concerns would be appreciated.

Do you have any questions that we could help you with, any concerns of particular importance to you? It helps if you start your own thread then we can all butt in with our 2 bob's worth 

looking forward to hearing back,

Vivek