Are the ups ever harder than the downs?

[nevaeh]

So H has been on the edge the past several weeks, with a minimum of two instances where we got into either a fight or one of our long "discussions" late at night, in which I brought up divorce at least 4 times.  Without getting into all of the details, the late night discussion followed about two weeks of increasing tensions and stress by him and eventually ended with him telling me that he was tired of "trying" in the relationship, that I am not giving him enough sex and that it's up to me to fix our marriage.  The other incident happened because I got home 30 minutes late and we ended up in a huge screaming match because he was mad at me for being late.

Anyway... . since the screaming match, which was exactly a week ago today, he has continued to isolate himself and I have tried to avoid having to spend any time with/around him.

However, last night, after having been through all of this, it's just like it always is, that after a few days he is "back to normal" and basically shows no acknowledgement of the fact that he just told me a month ago that he's done trying to make our marriage work.  It's like a black hole and he has no recollection and therefore there is no "reason" to revisit it.

So last night he was talking about what he wants to do to finish off a theater/game room in our basement, reading a book about buying a business, which he has been talking about doing for the past year.  His talk about buying a particular business has been one that has actually gotten me thinking more seriously about leaving him, because I am terrified of being financially tied to him in such a huge way.  This business would cost close to two million dollars and while it does cash flow and has a great potential, we would have to mortgage the house and put a lot of time and energy in to it in order to try and make some money on it.  I am scared that if we buy the business then things get really bad there is no way to really get out from under that and I would be stuck staying with him for strictly financial reasons.  I just don’t want to put myself in that situation.  So, every time he brings up this business I try to be very noncommittal, partly knowing that his natural “inability” to make a decision will buy me quite a bit of time. 

I guess the point of this post is that most of the time what makes it hard being married to him is actually the up/”good” times.  When he is being an a$$ it’s easy to hate him and it’s easy to want to walk away and never look back.  But when he starts making plans for our future he’s easier to get along with and isn’t really giving me a “reason” to want to leave him, which is when the guilt over even considering leaving him creeps up and catches me.  How do you work through that when you really don’t want to be with someone anymore?  I always tell myself that I’ll wait until the next time he flares up and does something stupid, but when he does flare up my focus seems to be on just getting through the particular situation or getting through the day/week, whatever, without literally losing my mind.  How can I tell a man who is being reasonable, thoughtful, helpful, and caring that I no longer want to be married to him?  This is one of things that I have struggled with FOR YEARS and I can’t seem to get past this!  I need help figuring out how to maneuver through these “good” times when I’m figuring out my plan to leave him.  It seems like it’s so easy to get sucked in to the good times.  Even when I know in my heart I don’t really love him anymore, the good times make it seem like the marriage could be “tolerable”.

How do you all deal with this?

[Validation78]

Hi Java!

Much of your story resonates with me. Typical behavior for pwBPD, is the intermittent rewards they give us with good behavior, enough to keep us hooked, and putting the bad behaviors out of our minds, momentarily! I know it was one of the hardest things for me to put aside since I always had hope that he would get better, and the good would outweigh the bad.

With the help of this support group, my T, and friends, I was really able to evaluate what I had, and what our relationship really was. It was a hard truth to swallow, yet no matter how much I wanted to focus on the good, accepting BPD for what it is made me get real with myself. I knew that no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much I changed, the best I would be able to do is manage H and his mental illness. Frankly, for me, that was not good enough. Many members find a way to deal with that, and I admire their tenacity.

What we talk about here on The Undecided Board, and The Staying Board, are the ways that we can and must take control of the emotional side of the relationship. Unless our loved ones are undergoing DBT or another specialized treatment for BPD, the prospect of their changing is grim.

I might add that you have good gut instincts, and they are telling you what you need to know about additional financial ties, and complications for your future. Until you are sure that you can stick it out, living with this mental illness, it might be a good idea not to further obligate yourself!

So, what is really making you stay, even if you know that you no longer love him?

Best Wishes,

Val78

[nevaeh]

So, what is really making you stay, even if you know that you no longer love him?

That is the question I wrestle with every day!

If I am completely honest there have been a lot of stages and a lot of reasons why I have stayed with him for 23 years.

While we were dating, I had some serious self esteem issues. My first boyfriend in college cheated on me and that breakup was really hard for me.  I met H at a party and he was very taken with me and drew me in almost immediately.  Our relationship became pretty intense right off the bat (like, love at first sight intense).  But... . there were also early signs of problems.  H was a "player" from the beginning.  Lots of indications of cheating behavior that I chose to ignore/not believe because he was so attentive and good to me in so many other ways.  We fought while we were dating but usually the fights were triggered by my "jealousy" and I was made out to be the crazy one.  After dating for about 3.5 years we had a HUGE fight over him losing his temper while we were driving home from a trip with my two young cousins in the car.  They were probably 4 and 6, and they were scared - that was the first time I had seen his temper go that "black".  He called me the next day and told me that he was breaking up with me, and through conversation I found out that he was seeing someone else.  I was absolutely devastated and vowed to myself that I would get him back.  I know at the time I was thinking that since I was already out of college that there was no way I would meet anyone else and was terrified that I would spend my life alone.  I also remember thinking how much I had sacrificed for him and how much "work" I had put in to our relationship and didn't want to just throw it away.  Obviously I did get him back and we ended up marrying about a year later.

After we got married there were many more arguments and many more times that he scared me with his temper tantrums and the hatred/black look he would get in his eyes.  We had our first bad fight just a couple of months after we got married.  I remember that fight and realizing that I had made a mistake marrying him.  But then it was embarrassment that prevented me from doing anything... . I didn't want to leave him after our first fight and figured I just needed to try harder. 

We had our daughter about two years after we got married and things were good.  He was smitten with her but I also knew that there was a lot going on beneath the surface with him. 

While I was pregnant with our son (now 12) I found out that H was in to cross dressing and had a secret stash of clothes, videos and sex toys.  I also found a box where he kept printed out emails between him and a woman he knew in college (one who I had suspected he had cheated on me with).  They were horrible e-mails, very graphic and disturbing.  I confronted him about the emails and he was MAD at me for finding and reading his personal stuff.  He didn't think he had really done anything wrong because they had never actually "been" together.  I made him end it with her.  I also knew he was trolling XXX websites and conversing with people on there as well.  I stayed during this time because I had a 2-year old daughter and was pregnant and didn't think I could financially or emotionally handle being separated at that time.

During these times there were always outbursts where he would get mad/enraged about stupid things and he would lose it... . breaking things, screaming, yelling, etc.  Once I took my toddler daughter to my sister's after a fight and when I came back to get my things he had completely locked me out of the house and wouldn't even let me in to get my things so I could go to work the next day.  He got into my sister's face and told her that if I was going to "leave" him that this was my consequence.

When S12 was a toddler was when H started lashing out at him for various reasons.  He would yell and scream at him starting when he was probably 2-3.  I specifically remember a night when S12 was about 2 and he refused to brush his teeth.  H got in his face and was screaming at him - S12 was so upset that he threw up all over from sobbing so hard.  I think that was the first time that I stepped as protective mama bear, learning a hard realization that there was something seriously wrong with H, something beyond just a simple anger problem.

We had our 3rd child (S8) when S12 was almost 4.  The night I brought S8 home from hospital H had one of his tyrades, aimed at S12 because he was being difficult.  Here I was with a newborn and a husband whose yelling once again made S12 vomit.  This happened frequently.  I wanted to leave that night as well, but I had literally just gotten home from the hospital... . how in the world could I pack up 3 kids and leave?  It seemed like these things always happened when he knew there was no way I would be able to leave.

When S8 was a couple of months old H was activated for deployment to Iraq. We were really in a dark place at that time and I was actually happy that he was going to be leaving, thinking it would give me some time without him to see how I would feel about being on my own.  But as deployment drew closer his attitude began to change and by the time he left he was nostalgic and realizing how much we meant to him and how much he dreaded leaving us.  I remember the day we left him at the airport, thinking this could be the last time I might see him... . feeling a bit nostalgic myself that even through the dark times there were still things I loved about him.  He called me on his stop-over in Italy and then again when he reached Kuwait ... . literally CRYING because he was so upset to be away from us.  I thought that this trip was going to make him come around and realize how good we were for him and how much he needed to change to be the husband/dad we deserved.

But, after 6 months gone, he came back and I found out that he had been having an affair with his commanding officer while he was there and sought out a divorce attorney the day after I found out.  He literally LOST it... . crying, begging, etc, for me to forgive him and give him a chance to make it up to us. That was a very dark time for me, one that went on for 3-4 years.  I didn't leave him then because the kids were so excited to have him home and I didn't want to have to explain to friends and family why I was leaving my husband after him being home for 3 weeks.  Again, bad timing.  It was a very rough time for us and I had a very hard time getting over the affair.  In retrospect I realize that he got involved with that woman because of his BPD... . he needed to have someone to be attached to and she was one of the only females in proximity.  I even talked to her several times and she acknowledged that he didn't appear to deal well with stressful situations and didn't have good coping mechanisms.

Right before H deployed to Iraq we purchased a lot right outside of town where we would build our dream home, which is something we had been planning during the 10 years we had been married at that point.  About 3 years after the affair is when we started building our house.  His dad passed away during this time as well and we moved in with my parents as temporary housing while our house was being built.  We had some pretty bad fights while we were at their house too... . but again, bad timing... . I couldn't exactly leave him while we were in the middle of construction of our house.

We eventually moved in about 4 years ago and have definitely had ups and downs since then.  Right after we moved in, H was gone for 5 months attending a military school in Texas.  I have to admit that it was nice that he was gone and once again it was just me and the kids on our own.  Always so calm when he's not around.  Within a year or so of him being back home we went through another really bad time... . one that lasted a few months.  That ended in a HUGE fight and us talking very little to each other for a few months.  I saw a therapist because I wanted help in figuring out how to leave him.  I started copying documents and made an appointment with a lawyer and had made arrangements with my parents to borrow money for the retainer for the lawyer since I didn't want H to know what I was up to.  I don't know how, but he figured out what I was doing, and literally confronted me a week before my second appointment with my attorney (I already had a consultation with her in which she gave me some preliminary information).  He fell apart and we spent an entire weekend with him  literally "entangled" in me, crying, begging, wanting to know what he could do to "fix" things.  He agreed to get counseling, I gave him the Walking on Eggshells book and he read it and he said he was going to work really hard to change.  This time was different, or so I thought, because he was actually accepting some level of responsibility.

Unfortunately it didn't last.  He only went to a few counseling appointments and didn't really see that his issue was BPD, just anger management issues is what he claimed.  We soon slipped back in to old habits and I would say in the past 2-3 years I have gone back and forth on how I might tolerate his shortcomings.  The last time I saw the lawyer she forewarned me that custody could be an issue and that I shouldn't count on getting sole custody because of current trends in custody hearings.  That was pretty much why I have stayed the past few years... . because I didn't want to have my kids spend time with their dad unsupervised.  I came to the conclusion that at least if I was there that I could hopefully protect them if things got bad.

We've had some pretty ugly fights in the past couple of years.  I have slowly detached from him emotionally and found that it was the only way I could survive.  I try my hardest to not let him get to me and I try to enjoy life as much as I can despite the constant turmoil I am in.  It has just been in the past several months that I realized I can't live like this for the rest of my life.  At times I have thought that once the kids are gone that things would be better.  We are very financially secure and there were also selfish thoughts about how I could enjoy our financial freedom and all I had to do was just detach from him emotionally and I could still enjoy that freedom if I could just accept the situation of our marriage.

I am 42 years old.  My D15 has 3 more years of HS then will go to college.  She and I are very close.  She has told me that she can't wait to leave home to get away from him.  Her making that comment made me start wondering if I was still with H after kids left home if they would ever come visit me if H was still around.  The bottom line is that I asked myself the same question... . why am I staying with him?  A lot of it came down to financial reasons (as embarrassed as I am to admit that).  There is a part of it too that I feel guilty leaving him, since I know we are his world. We had a big fight a few months ago over my daughter's participation in a sport and how I had handled an interaction with one of her coaches.  H thought I had made a poor decision in handling a situation and he BERATED me for at least two weeks about that.  His insults were very personal and insulting to me and something inside me just snapped, to where I said I am not going to put up with this anymore, and here I am a few months later trying to figure out how to make this finally happen.  I am realizing how much I have sacrificed to be with him and to try and make sure HE was happy. 

My biggest hurdle right now is the physical act of sitting down and telling him that I want a divorce.  That one thought alone paralyzes me!  I don’t want to discuss it with him, I just want to tell him and then have him move out.  But I know that won’t happen.  I will have to explain myself for him but he won’t accept any of my rationale without arguing with me and telling me that my feelings are wrong.  So in some ways I am trying to become less desirable to him…thinking maybe he will just someday decide that he no longer wants to be with me, even though I don’t think there is any chance that is going to happen.  Along with the physical act of telling him, is the unknown about how the whole separation and divorce process will work and what his reactions will be to all of it.  I am very busy at work and with the kids and I don’t feel like I have the emotional time or fortitude to handle all that the process will bring.  I basically have no confidence in myself.

What do I look forward to when I am no longer with him?  Not constantly worrying about what kind of mood he will be in when I get home from work.  Being able to enforce rules and establish consequences and offer rewards to my kids without him inserting himself into every conversation.  Not listening to him insult the kids and berate their lack of common sense and respect because they left a glass on the end table.  Being able to take the kids to a movie or out to eat without feeling guilty and wondering if he is going to pitch a fit about it.  Spending time with my family without worrying about him going off on anyone who doesn’t agree with his strong opinions on things.  Going to bed without having an anxiety attack about whether I should have sex with him and the 5000 thoughts surrounding that one act that should be a loving one between a husband and a wife, not a stressful “prove how much I love you” act from me to a demanding/brooding husband.   Listening to the kids bicker like siblings do, without having an anxiety attack worrying that H is going to step in and start yelling and screaming and throwing things.  Being able to just ENJOY every moment of every day for what it is without worrying that one little thing could trigger him and ruin the day/evening/weekend/week/month.  Basically I just want to be rid of the stress!

Sorry for the VERY VERY long answer to your question.  But those are the reasons why I am still with him.  Always suffering from bad timing and my own inability to make quick decisions.  Afraid to be alone.  Afraid of how he would react.  Afraid of hurting him.  Afraid of allowing him to have partial custody of the kids.  Afraid of the process.  Afraid of how I would be impacted financially.  I somehow have to figure out how to flip the switch and deal with those fears so I can finally move on with the rest of my life.

[DreamFlyer99]

Oh nevaeh, I still feel for ya! And I know how hard it is to second-guess yourself every other second!

Every little thing Val78 said sounds like something my therapist would say. It's that intermittent thing that keeps us hooked. We nons go, "well, but I like this person when he's 'good'" when it is merely the eye of the storm and the storm will come. If we're honest with ourselves we know that. And it sounds like you DO know that, something that took much more than 23 years for ME to figure out!

Do you think you feel guilty somehow like you are "giving up" on someone who can behave occasionally, or who at least can not cause you and the kids grief and that seems like "good" and "peace"? I know i'm somebody who has done many things based on guilt (uBPD mom!) but it wasn't really my true guilt for something I knew I had done wrong (clearcut like I had stolen when I value honesty, stuff like that) but guilt because the pwBPD sure can make us feel guilty? It's something I had to look at, don't know if it applies to you.

One thing I've realized about myself is that with all the things I am afraid of in life and in the relationship with my H, as I develop the skills to deal with things in a healthier way, a more self-caring way, then when the next step comes up I AM ready to face another fear. And I find myself pleasantly surprised!

I learned a ton from the workshop on boundaries, there was a lot even on self-hate which has always been an issue for me, and some really defining things about boundaries I found helpful.

Sounds like you are still in the not-trusting-yourself place I have been not so long ago. As spouses of somebody with the set of traits common to the pwBPD we seem to often become wounded to the point of not trusting our own good built-in instincts. i'm making headway on knowing who I am once again, and that's made a huge difference for me. Sounds like you need some calm space to assess where you are so you can take steps toward making your life what your instincts tell you is right for you and your children. Those steps will become more clear as you assess with a less fearful mind. And they won't necessarily involve your husband, they are about your OWN clarity.

You getting clarity will give you a calmer mind. And that will allow you to make some steps toward independence if that is what you decide is best for your mama bear cubs and you.

Thinking of ya,

DF99

[DreamFlyer99]

and I forgot to say, when you are getting freaked out about talking to your H about wanting a divorce that could be your instincts saying "I'm not quite prepared for that YET." But that probably just means you need to use a clearer calmer mind to assess and look at steps you need to take BEFORE that point, yunno? Because if that is your goal, to remove yourself and your children from the situation, then that goal is just out there in front of you, and there are steps you haven't seen yet leading there.

When you get that wound up brain going, the one that ruminates and worries and spins, tell yourself to BREATHE slowly and deeply, so you can find "you" again, the "you" that knows she can make decisions.

When I get spinning I know it's from my child-brain usually, the part of me that feels alone and helpless like I did when I was small. I still have to remind myself to pull out my inner grownup in moments where I feel i'm in crisis.  They used to talk so much about "finding your inner child" when for me it was more like "where the he** is my inner grownup? Get OUT here!"

[Validation78]

Hi Java!

Your story is of course complicated making your decision all the more difficult. There are lots of folks in situations, like yours, for whom everything is not so cut and dry.

No matter what you do, you need a plan. The thing is, if you stay you need an action plan to improve your life, and the lives of your kids. If you leave you need a plan to do so since you can't just up and go on a whim. Being stuck in what we call FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) makes decisions a lot more difficult. Work through the FOG, and discover what your mental road blocks are, because they are what is keeping you from finding ways around the other blocks that you named.

Check out the Family Law Board on this site. There are many folks there who have gone down a similar path, and will have good suggestions as to how to accomplish what you need to leave this marriage if that's what you want, and to do so safely and legally.

This will all take time, and in the interim, you can do a few things yourself to calm the waters while you make your decisions and formulate a plan. pwBPD hear things differently than nons. There are a whole series of communication tools that when used correctly, can help you to communicate better. Validation, SET, and DEARMAN are the verbal skills I used most. I also learned to set better boundaries which helped me a lot. Last, I worked on my own ability to control my emotional reactions to things by understanding Wise Mind. All of these concepts can be learned here on the site (staying board, The Lessons). Even if you end up going separate ways, you will be better off knowing how to deal with him since you will be linked forever because of your kids. It's a lot of work, and so worth it. If you don't do something to make changes, you can count on more of the same, and it sounds like you've endured quite enough!

Decide, plan, and act. You'll feel better just starting to take control!

Best Wishes,

Val78