enablers

[doubleAries]

I recently purchased a book by Keith Ablow, forensic psychiatrist, called "inside the mind of Casey Anthony", knowing there would be some thought provoking gems in there. It is LOADED with them.

Anyway, the following paragraph (about Casey Anthony's mother) kept me up thinking until 3am:

“Enablers are power hungry and addicted to control. They make excuses for the damaging or self-destructive behavior of those close to them because it increases their importance as the seemingly “stable” center around which chaos and depravity swirl. Without sick people depending on them to stay afloat, enablers wouldn’t be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it, and therefore, feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that.”

I know we like to think of ourselves as "normal" victims of the bad, mean BPD's, but it's simply not true--our dysfunction isn't the same as theirs, but it is dysfunction nonetheless.

I'm more of a "fixer" than an "enabler", but I believe they belong in the same category and there is definitely overlap. I don't tend to make excuses for the dysfunctional people I surround myself with, and I become very resentful of their dependency. But I bend over backwards to find useable solutions to problems people didn't ask me to help them with. I don't surround myself with dysfunction more pronounced than my own because I want to look stable by comparison--but because I don't believe I deserve better. I mean, who else would possibly like me than someone now indebted to me because of all I've done for them? But I clearly recognize that the "fixer" is just as determined as the "enabler" to be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. Maybe the outward methods are slightly different, but the root motivation is the same.

And not only that, but all of this shares something fundamental with the personality disorders---a nonexistent or severely blurred sense of self/identity. Yes, I can pinpoint various things that brought this about in myself, but what is more important is how to replace it with something more healthy. Recognition is only the first step. And I've been working on this in counseling for a year now.

Comments? Shared experience?

[Rose Tiger]

It took me a long time to work through the wall I had up that kept me from dealing with past hurts.  I mean, once you aren't distracting yourself with coping mechanisms like trying to fix a dysfunctional partner, throwing your hands up and saying ok, everyone is going to have to do without my fixing to keep them from disaster, then I could start focusing on the feelings I wasn't allowed to feel and then self imposed from feeling.

I went through 12 step at celebrate recovery and went through my whole life experiences with my mentor.  She was not impressed with my ability to name off really bad things like a grocery list.  She said you aren't feeling this, most people cry throughout this process.  I'm such a failure.    Then it started coming back in little bits, like my inner child was releasing some small things to see if I could be trusted.  If I could be loving and unconditional.  Then more started coming through and then one night, I sobbed all night long as the wall finally came down.  Now I let myself feel things in the moment, now I cry at those commercials that tug at the heart strings, I can cry on a dime because the feelings are so close now, accessible.  That is the good feelings, too, like joy and love are more accessible.

The first step in my healing was to put a kabash on any critical put downs in my thoughts, reworked those big time.  It started with learning how to love myself and my T was super unconditional and supportive, I was being reparented by her.  

[musicfan42]

This is a really good topic doubleAries-thanks for posting it.

I'm more of a fixer than an enabler too. I don't make excuses for people either; in fact, I'm actually very harsh on people and tend to assume the worst.

I've really stopped fixing though. I think that my abandonment issues are at the root of my codependent behaviors. My BPD ex talked openly about his abandonment issues and I think this is what bonded us together in the first place-our abandonment issues. I feel that I had one good parent whereas he had none-both of his parents were useless basically.

I think that fixing was a way to stop people from abandoning me. I thought that if I helped someone, then they'd need me... . they'd grow dependent on me and never leave me. I resented their dependency however the fear of abandonment was so strong that I actually preferred to care-take and fix rather than face the prospect of being on my own. I couldn't stand being on my own-I couldn't stand my own company... . I really didn't like myself and when I was on my own, I felt completely empty... . I just didn't think there was anything there. I didn't think I had an identity unless I was with someone. I defined myself as a fixer-that was my identity and it gave me much needed self-esteem, even if it was only a temporary fix of self-esteem and never really filled the hole inside me. It was basically better than nothing. I felt that I was nobody on my own-that nobody wanted me. When I was younger, I would feel very emotionally distressed if I felt that people disliked me... . it would actually ruin my day. My self-esteem was based on what other people thought of me-if people liked me, I thought that I was great whereas if they didn't, I thought that I was an awful person. I internalised other peoples' views of me all the time and took their opinions as fact instead of questioning it a bit more.

I didn't even want to look like the better one. Part of it definitely was that I thought I couldn't do any better so I was stuck with the losers/rejects. I felt that I was a misfit so I tended to gravitate towards misfits... . I had a really distorted self-image. It took me ages to realise that I was actually quite conventional and once I realised that, I wasn't as attracted to misfits. I realised that I was normal and that I really wanted normality. I never had normality in my life as a child and that's the thing I want above all. I would read psychology books, trying to figure out what "normal" was because I honestly didn't know. I knew that I was dealing with some situations badly however I couldn't figure out where I was going wrong. It was a very frustrating and painful time for me. I thought "if I just figure out where I'm going wrong, then I'll be fine"  but it took me so long to figure out and in the meantime, I felt like I was crawling in my own skin... . it felt unbearable... . I actually felt suicidal at times because I felt that I couldn't take anymore... . couldn't take any more pain, frustration etc. I thought "when will I feel better?" There seemed to be no end in sight and I seemed to be making the same mistakes all the time so I just hated myself really. I felt a lot of despair really.

I also think that enablers may cling to control because they're in an unpredictable environment... . around an unstable person all the time so they try to control whatever they can. I developed an eating disorder and I think that some of it was about numbing my feelings... . about escapism but later, it turned into a control mechanism (I started off by binging but eventually, I dieted and almost became anorexic). I derived an amazing sense of accomplishment from controlling my food intake. I would look at other people eating more than me in disgust-I'd think that I was so much better than them because I was eating so healthy... . that they were just pigs in comparison to me. That gave me an ego boost. Controlling my food intake made my emotions feel more in control... . I'd feel more confident and able to handle life in general... . it gave me a sense of empowerment that I previously didn't have in my life. I had this sense of hopelessness in my life and I only felt confident when I was restricting my food intake... . otherwise, I felt that I was nothing. (still warped sense of identity there).

It took me a while to realise that I had to address my eating issues in a serious manner... . that it wasn't really about the weight... . that there were underlying issues underneath it all and I only really achieved any progress once I started to address the emotional angle of it.

It's great that you're working on this doubleAries. You mention that you've been working on this issue for a year-I can see that you've really achieved great insight and you've got me thinking about it which is always a good thing. It's really hard work, trying to figure all this stuff out however I am so glad that you've posted this as it's something I'm currently grappling with!

[MaybeSo]

Great thread, sobering. I do agree that cd and enabeling is not healthy for anyone and is full of (fueled by) distorted thoughts and beliefs,  ... . not dissimilar to the distorted thinking we lament with BPD. CD is also on a spectrum.  The Casey Anthony example of enabling would be at the extreme end of the spectrum, and learning about it as a cautionary tale can be a useful way to "see" and become more aware of traits even if you are at the lower end of the spectrum.  

Gives me a lot to think about.

[doubleAries]

One thing I am finally beginning to grasp in my counseling about all this is about the emotional aspect of it all. That has been eluding me for a LONG time. I have figured out this or that over and over, only to find myself right back in the morass I was trying to figure out how to escape. I never allowed the emotions that were forbidden my entire childhood. I thought I could think my way out of my psychological turmoil.

I grew up with a witch mother. While it is no longer an entry in the DSM, my mom fits the entire criteria list for Sadistic Personality Disorder (with borderline features) PERFECTLY. In some ways (except for someone actually being killed physically) the Casey Anthony example doesn't measure up to what went on in my childhood home. My "escape" from there was to visitation at my NPD alcoholic/addict fathers house, where I would be fondled in my bed until I cried, then was made to feel guilty for rejecting my fathers extremely inappropriate sexuality. Then I'd go back "home" (if that's what you want to call it) to the witch, and the psychological, emotional, and physical abuse. I had no control at all. None. I wasn't allowed to decide anything at all for myself--not my hair, clothes, music, how my "free time" was spent, when I would bathe, when I would sleep, whether I was allowed to eat, ANYTHING. Punishments ranged from being padlocked into my room, to being sent away to abusive fundamentalist concentration camps, to having my pets killed in front of me and being forced to eat them, to just being beaten senseless. I was never taken to a dentist, rarely went to a doctor unless it was absolutely critically necessary, and never taught any of the things necessary to independence. My mother didn't use waify guilt to wield her absolute control--she used the iron fist and annihilating rage. All the emotional oxygen was sucked from the room when she was there. My brothers and I were zombies. So was my stepdad. Displays of distress during her tirades only added fuel to the fire--we learned to "suck it up" and act like getting our faces slammed into the floor for the crime of eating food was nonchalant. There was a choice--express our anguish and watch in horror as she clearly and obviously fed off it, or deny our own selves, to extinguish our own souls and become invisible, nonexistent props. We all chose the latter.

I honestly believed if I could just grow up and get away from my parents, I would be "normal". When I wasn't, I was devastated. All the vile put downs she told me about myself must be true.

Even after I figured out that my unconscious habits/patterns were geared around dealing with extreme dysfunction, and that was why I found myself square in the middle of extremely dysfunctional situations and relationships (where I could use the only skills I had), I still couldn't THINK my way out of it. I am still grappling with the idea that the internal psychological turmoil I seek distraction from is emotional in nature--not intellectual, and must be coped with emotionally, not intellectually. I don't know how. Emotions have never been anything resembling safe in my life. Now that I am beginning to experience some of them, I am frightened at the loss of control I feel during the experience. I mean REALLY frightened. It may take a long time to breach that wall, in spite of my determination.

"Funny" how it is so clear to me what needs to be done to "help" someone else, but when it comes to myself, I'm lost without a compass... .

[MaybeSo]

Omg,

DA, the abuse you suffered as a child is just staggering.

Why can a child be tormented like you were for years and no adult stepped in to rescue YOU?

Agh! It makes me want to scream! God dammit! WTF!

:'(

[doubleAries]

MaybeSo, your empathy means more than you can know.

I never believed what went on in my childhood was normal, but since no one ever did intervene, I believed I didn't matter enough for anyone to intervene for. Like musicfan42, my "self" value became based on what others think of me. If they like me, I'm good. If they don't, I'm bad.

I'm not just trying to cope with emotions--I'm trying to give CPR to my soul, which is in a coma. 

[MaybeSo]

   

[Cumulus]

I am so sorry DA. I have to feel that at sometime there will be incredible sorrow for anyone who has harmed a child. Total black bleak sorrow that overwhelms them to agony. No child should suffer and especially not suffer at the hand of a parent, the very person whose job should be to love and protect.

This thread has been enormously helpful to me. I have been spending far too much time trying to understand intellectually what happened. I think you're right, it's an emotional issue and it needs to be dealt with emotionally. The problem is I have gotten so used to stuffing those emotions away that I have a hard time recognizing them. My new motto has been:

Recognize it

Name it

Feel it

Deal with it

And although it can be hard to recognize, it's the feeling it part that is the more difficult. All the best DA. Thank you for sharing and encouraging. Cumulus.

[Clearmind]

I agree with you DA.

The 12 step program coined the term “enabling” – it’s a buzz word.

A person, who is self destructive, has no reason to change if there are no consequences. If rescued from consequences, they are enabled to continue on with the destructive/addictive behaviour. Is fixing, rescuing and enabling the same thing? I personally think so. Enabling is simply not allowing a person to face consequences.

At first enabling/fixing/rescuing provides a person with value. I know it did for me. My worth was dependent on how much I could fix. When it doesn’t work we can become resentful towards that person we are attempting to rescue.

My tendencies were the direct result of my unconscious reaction to my childhood trauma – growing up in a household with a BPD/alcoholic and enabling parent who I modelled my relationship style from. I carried the air of control - it was a facade/a mask - because I had none as a child. I was not authentically living my own life.

[doubleAries]

Yes, exactly!

My T keeps telling me that I am trying to do for others what was never done for me, but I keep picking out others it won't work on (for example, I am only a few weeks divorced from a bipolar w/ psychotic features, NPD, ASPD guy--18 years of trying to have a "meaningful relationship" with someone who CAN'T. Not even WON'T--just CAN'T. Geez, maybe next I should head down to a nursing home and find a guy who's had 7 or 8 strokes and try to have meaningful conversations with him, so we can both be frustrated out of our minds!).

My T keeps telling me I need to do these things for myself, not others (only). But honestly, I just don't know how! I know he's right, but I can't figure out how. It's like I have one foot nailed to the floor and I'm going around in a circle.

This may sound stupid, but does anyone know HOW one goes about accessing that thing Ablow is talking about? I know how to focus on it, but not how to feel it. T says just let it come--but it doesn't. I take time out every evening to sit down and either push myself to feel that which I am trying to distract myself from, or just let it come, or whatever, and it doesn't happen. I know something's happening, because a few months ago on my way to work I started crying and couldn't stop and wasn't sure why. Had to go home, because you can't just go around work crying. T said the barrier was coming down to my feelings that have been locked up since childhood, and that makes sense. But now that I know what was happening, it won't happen anymore. If I try to think about some of the really horrendous things that happened to me as a kid to prompt it, I just get mad. I can't summon up sympathy for the little kid who endured all that crap. I can summon up outrage, but not sadness, pain, fear--the things I know I should feel and probably do somewhere inside, but cannot find.

[Clearmind]

I had to be really conscious and simply step back and do some self talk “No clearmind, step back, this person is capable of looking after themselves. This is not my role”. It took a while to break the pattern. I firstly had to know why I did it. My self worth needed rebuilding.

My childhood dictated my actions as an adult. It’s recognizing that we are now adults with adult privileges. As a child I dare not say “No” otherwise I was hit – now there are no consequences accept on the occasion my guilt to contend with for not helping. Remind yourself that we no longer need to operate on childhood emotions. That being an adult means there are choices.

This goes for others too – allow them the choice to decide for themselves. Your value is not dependent on whether you fix – you have proven that – it hasn’t worked.

Emotional blocking is something I would do – I stopped dissociating when I healed from childhood. I wrote a bucket load – this connects the left and right side of the brain – kids from abusive homes can be very cerebral – thinkers not feelers. Its common! When you find yourself heading into your head – stop – and really ask yourself “How does it make me feel – in the heart and belly?” – start processing what emotions come up and write them down.

You need to get mad DA – get real angry – this is part of you healing from grief – feel – right now you are scared and don’t trust vulnerable emotions like anger and sadness – welcome to life! Trust that everyone gets angry – it’s OK – someone may have told its not.

Whats the worse that can happen if you get angry?

hit__

I cannot recommend this highly enough - The Self-Acceptance Project - some members really started to feel during this project.

[Grey Kitty]

  OMG is right. I read your statement somewhere that most people who had experienced abuse anything like you did were complete basketcases and you didn't know why you weren't. I didn't doubt you, but still, yikes! My mind can't even fathom what you went through well enough to properly get angry over it.

I can offer you some perspective on this, however:

But now that I know what was happening, it won't happen anymore. If I try to think about some of the really horrendous things that happened to me as a kid to prompt it, I just get mad.

My take on that is that you are protecting yourself from things you can't deal with. Right now you can't cope with the sadness this would bring up. If you feel angry, the anger protects you from the sadness. When you don't need that anymore, you will feel the sadness.

I'd recommend mindfulness: If you are feeling angry, then try to focus your attention on the anger, feeling it and experiencing it. Try to be curious about what this anger really is. (And don't be surprised if it goes away just as you are getting really interested in it.)

[Whatwasthat]

Hi DA

I have a thought or two that comes from my own experience of attempting to access emotions.

You said:

I just get mad. I can't summon up sympathy for the little kid who endured all that crap. I can summon up outrage, but not sadness, pain, fear--the things I know I should feel and probably do somewhere inside, but cannot find.

It seems to me that you're heading in exactly the right direction. Outrage is a very good start surely? And in fact you did say that you'd burst into tears on the way to work recently - so it seems to me that you're really not that far from accessing a lot of sadness too. But as Clearmind says don't be in any rush to get through the anger/outrage - whatever you want to call it. It's necessary too I'm sure. And I think a vast amount of anger is justified in your situation and needs to be felt.

The only other thing I'd say is something I always go on about (sorry!). I've found physical activities and therapies - like restorative yoga (it has to be the 'restorative' kind in my experience - very precise and slow) and cranio-sacral therapy - are great at helping to tap into deeply held and unexpressed emotion.

Wishing you well. WWT.

[zaqsert]

Hi doubleAries,

Reading your story, I feel anger that may be somewhat similar to what others are feeling as they read it!

Despite the frustration that you seem to feel as you work through this, I find if impressive to see how you are working through this.

For what it's worth... .   The severity of my experiences as a child were nothing compared to what you went through.  Yet it has still taken me time to work through it.  It has been a bit like an onion.  First there was a protective layer that seemed to keep me from even talking about it.  Then I would work through it and reach a plateau.  At one of these plateaus, I thought I had worked through it pretty well.  A few years later, I realized that I just had not been ready to dig deeper.  New emotions came up that I had not felt (or noticed) before.  Only then could I start to process those parts.

I told my T how frustrating it felt not to know how to address certain things.  She kept telling me that recognizing it was an important first step.  I told her that I found her answer frustrating too!  But sure enough, once I was able to peel back the things that apparently had to come before it, I would eventually reach what I was trying to get to.

It is still a process for me, one that I now hope I will continue for a lifetime.

Thanks for sharing the piece on enablers.  I found it very helpful.

 

[rollercoaster24]

Hi all

I guess I've been a bit of a fixer too, but mostly, any people who asked for my help always got served my boundaries to start with. I told them that if they asked for help and I could give it, I would give it, not at their whim or demand, and not if they weren't prepared to help themselves.

I also said that my help was not an eternal on tap supply, available whenever they snapped their fingers and they also were not to become dependent/reliant/expectant on it.

I would explain that I have a pretty high radar for being taken for granted, and as soon as that radar goes off, or they overstepped the mark, or tried to take more and more, the supply would cease forever.

As far as the BP in my life was involved, I tried to allow him to retain his own sense of independence as much as possible, yes I helped him consistently, but I was careful to not help too much, I have remained as distant as possible from his own dilemmas, because he needs to learn to deal with the consequences of his own choices in life.

To a degree he is independent, (stubbornly so), but in others, he is as dependent as a young child, such a 'catch 22' mix in there.

This has often made his life much worse, and still is, (and I have to hear about it!) but I just leave the solving/resolving of it up to him, as he wishes, but trying to retain my own boundaries at the same time.

The one area I failed in the most, was enabling his projections/rages/dysregulating, I guess I became a bit of a sponge, (instead of a mirror).

There is also the fact that abused women often blame themselves for the abuse inflicted on them, so this has definately been a factor in my relationship from the very start. I was manipulated into believing I deserved the way he treated me or talked to me, because I was too 'friendly' too popular, had too many responsibilities, had too many 'friends', or worked too much.

I also had built up guilt at failing myself, and becoming argumentative and hurtful at times. As we all know, the scales of our responses/reactions are nowhere like theirs, but they use any dirt on us as a tool to manipulate us and guilt trip us forever, they also use it as justifications for their ever consistent future attacks.

If they get us to react like they do, they win, even if we might only react 10% of the time exposed to their hate like this, and their efforts are 90%, they will use our 10% as fodder and justification for their future abuse, (to which they can then cry out and be the 'victim' and call us the abusers! or call us out for saying things that 'hurt them and make them feel bad'. (choke!)

I also failed from time to time, in retaining my own emotional equilibrium in response to his projecting/acting out/painting me or us black, and he successfully transferred or dumped all that onto me, and I soaked it up at just all the wrong times really. Sleep deprivation was his tool for transferring his crap onto me, or not giving me peace or respecting my rights or limits. If I said Stop, or 'I am not going to have this discussion any longer right now, as I do not want us upsetting ourselves more at this point', he would ignore me to the point of extreme frustration. If I carried out my rights to leave his rage/rants, I would be verbally abused and dumped anyway, (inevitably where he was heading things after his rants).

I understand all the tools used here, for validating, SET, not Jading etc, but when you are faced almost immediately with a snarling dog, none of those tools are going to work from the start. I refuse to validate someone who is ranting on in an extremely verbally abusive and hateful way, whether some of his/her feelings are valid and pertinent or not.

I often feel like my primary role in this relationship has been therapist. This is not me thinking I am a therapist, I just feel like one, and often every day at least.

Over the last 50 days or so, (saw him only twice in person), my contact has been limited to daily talks on the phone, which only go well on the days he has money, as he starts to run out, he begins to dysregulate more, as he is forced to spend more time at his parents, no money left to drive off and avoid them.

They supposedly now have been telling him to leave almost every day, (but he is still there, because the reality is, that he has no money and no job, to go elsewhere anyway). The whole situation is maddening really, and I hear about it every day, but the irony is for me, that when he lived here, his focus was the same, on what everyone else was doing, instead of himself.

His parents informed me how much he told them about living here, and I knew that was the case, even though BP professed to only talking to me about his problems, I knew he was denigrating me and this house and my family/friends behind my back. He was also painting things out to be quite different to the truth of the matter, twisting facts to make his stories make him look like the victim.

I knew better though.

Yet I was accused constantly of being a 'backstabber' and a troublemaker and not keeping our relationship 'private'.

How could someone who regularly stood out on the front lawn in front of the whole neighbourhood, or took his rage to my workplace, or any public place, call our relationship 'private'?

I shudder at the memories of the public humiliation sessions he inflicted on me during his time staying at my home, and his insistence on becoming enmeshed in 'helping' me at work.

As I said, if a  person is already raging almost immediately, (like my BP so often is) I am wasting my time trying to have a normal, logical conversation at that point it is already too late. I have witnessed this in my partner so much more often, that I often wondered why I even bothered to stick around hoping he might calm down, or I would say the right thing, or use the right tool and all would be fine again. It never was going to be.

Once in a while, the tools would work, but I found mostly that those tools only served to give him license to act like more of a jerk than he already is capable of.

It was doubly difficult to do, after I asked him to move out, and our relationship was reinstated as a Long Distance one for the past 15 months.

I have suffered a lot of internal conflict about whether or not I am doing the right thing, and the whole situation right now is only driving that home even more.

I am accused of never seeing BP, yet when I make plans to go spend time with him, I am fobbed off, he is miserable that he is at his parents, and at the general state of his affairs. He will work hard to convince me that he wants to see me, but both times over the last 50 days, have ended in assaults or property damages when I had to leave because he was being verbally abusive again.

Yet he wants to stay in touch on the phone every day, and hang on to me, and tell me he loves me, and just make general conversation about life in general. It is really frustrating to me, and I have tried to make him see several times how unfair this is to me.

He keeps telling me I will have to be patient, just like he has been, (allegedly waiting for me to have time to have a relationship and life with him for 3 years now).

Then he puts the hard word on me, about leaving my home and setting up a place with him, because now it is about time it is about him and I, not 'my family'.

But he has not done anything for the past 15 months about contributing to that 'place of our own' and privacy together. I keep being made to feel that the onus is on me to provide it.

Quite honestly, I am very reluctant to. He had the chance to stay on here, and resolve his differences with my boarders, but he chose not to, dismissing them and I as idiots.

Yet he blames me and them for his lot in life, and us not 'being together'. Funny, over the last 15 months of my input, I was under the belief I was in a relationship still and he certainly helped me believe that when it suited his purpose enough.

Sure, he has done some things to try and improve his own lot in life, but not seriously enough. He has used his toxic parents, as the excuse for not finding a job, and being able to leave there. Yet, for the past 15 months, he has received $240 a week unemployment, plus made often weekly extra money, (around average of $70 per week). Not to mention regular cash loans from such providers, with high interest repayments over a month.

He has had weekly assistance from me, and his parents, plus he has never had to pay board there, or pay for utilities, or anything. He lives there for free, and he lived here for free too. Sure, now and again, he might have contributed a substantial amount, but nothing consistent or reliable, and anything he did contribute would be taxed back by his running out of money again every week, so he would only end up getting back what he put in.

What to do?

I stress and obsess over this every day, because I just want some resolving, and to know where I am going, and some answers that make sense, but I never get them, there is always the same old crap, the same old excuses, then the inevitable dumping, denigrations, projecting, painting us black etc, weekly. I really want to end it, and move on with my life in a big way, but don't quite have the heart to do it just yet, strange, I should, after his assault and other damages lately.

It is maddening that he can not see me in person for so long, but still talk on the phone every day, and keep dangling me on this stick. I feel I am being lied to, whilst he tries to secure new involvements, and quite honestly, I want to move on and have a life myself, even if I am heartbroken, and not looking to date or become involved again.

[Rose Tiger]

DA - do you have any childhood pictures of yourself?  If you have any, put them into the fanciest most beautiful frames you can buy and keep them around to start getting in touch with that beautiful, sweet, adorable little person.  This is a suggestion from the book The Narcissistic Family in reconnecting with those lost feelings.

[musicfan42]

MaybeSo, your empathy means more than you can know.

I never believed what went on in my childhood was normal, but since no one ever did intervene, I believed I didn't matter enough for anyone to intervene for.

You DO matter doubleAries! It's sad that you had to experience such abuse as a child-that no one intervened on your behalf. It makes me feel so angry. I just want to say there is help out there and you deserve it to get it just as much as anyone else. As a human being, you have intrinsic value/worth. Everyone will need help at some point in their lives. I think that going to therapy is a really courageous act. I didn't realise it was at the time however when I look back, I realise that I was actually very brave... it felt scary but I still did it anyways. I didn't know whether it would work or not however I was willing to do the work. You have that willingness and bravery too so please give yourself credit for that. You're going to therapy, doing the work and you ARE worth it.

I had a lot of negative self-talk because I felt that I wasn't good enough... my father was always criticising me! It took me time to learn to apply positive self-talk to myself. It sounds cheesy however it does actually work! There are some threads in the workshop section of this website on it.

Another tip I read is to get index cards and write kind things on them and read them when you feel down. I used to do this and it was like having positivity & kindness at figure tips all the time. By "kind things", I mean writing affirming statements like "I am entitled to help just as much as anyone". "I am worthy". "I deserve help". "Seeking help is an act of bravery". "I am a lovable person". These are just some suggestions. It'll take a while for the messages on the index cards to seek into your subconscious however I would say give it a chance... just try it out and practice it.

I think that DBT is helpful too. I thought that DBT was a "soft" approach initially however that was because I was still being too hard on myself. I thought "oh well I need to get on with it and just move on" however I needed to give myself kindness. I didn't know HOW to be kind to myself-I literally had no idea whereas the DBT skills have taught me how to be kind to myself. It was a skill that I had to teach myself.

DBT actually talks about how anger is a secondary emotion and how there's primary emotions like fear, sadness etc underneath it. There's also a lovely bit in the emotional regulation section about how we need emotions for survival etc and that really helped me to learn to validate myself and my emotions. Here's a DBT skills handbook with all the DBT skills on it if you want more information on it: www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf

[doubleAries]

Thanks, all.

I guess what is mostly frustrating for me here is that I got a pretty good long ways on all of this on my own, without therapy, and I have felt angry about what all happened to me for a very long time--I seem to be stuck there. In my early 20's, I went to a counselor who insisted (without bothering to hear the extent of the abuse) that I needed to forgive my mother so I could have a loving relationship with her! I haven't spoken to my mom in 22 years and I have no plans of starting now. Through my brothers and their varied contact with her, I see that is the correct choice. We all went through absolute hell, but as the only other female in the family, I was singled out for extra special torment. Seeing emails she wrote that my brothers have forwarded to me, "mom" doesn't appear to have changed even a little bit.

I have made great progress consciously and intellectually. Not so great of progress unconsciously and emotionally.

I have a really good T now (for almost 2 years), and imagine my surprise and relief when I told him I was having a very difficult time forgiving my parents and he said "you don't have to. Why would you "forgive" someone for treating you like that?" We talked about that quite a bit, as well as the difference between acceptance and approval, and that "forgiveness" certainly is NOT the end all healing tool to reach inner peace.

Abuse is also a spectrum. And just because my abusive childhood was at an extreme end of the spectrum doesn't negate anyone else's level of abuse. In fact, I have come to see that in many ways the neglect I and my brothers endured was as damaging--maybe more damaging--than the over the top blatant abuse. The blatant abuse was shocking certainly, but became a distraction of sorts from the insidious neglect. My brothers and I actually looked forward to neglect--it meant we weren't "in trouble". We did NOT recognize that it also meant we weren't valued or cared about. Not being valued or cared about became the goal, the golden standard. This is pretty deeply ingrained (from the get go, really). It is now an unconscious pattern, habit, "norm". The access to changing it apparently is through the emotional realm--something I am not at all comfortable with. SIGH... . I'm still trying to THINK my way out of this--the only way I know how to approach things.

"... . enablers wouldn’t be distracted from their own internal psychological turmoil. They would have to focus on it, and therefore, feel it. And they will do almost anything to avoid that.”

OK... . Ablow makes it sound like if you just stop the distraction and focus on the internal psychological turmoil, the feelings about it come. I don't find this to be working for me. I must be doing something more, as he says, to avoid that, even though it seems I am trying to face it head on. But I can't figure out what (there's that word again--"figure out" instead of FEEL).

I'll check out these links provided and ponder all your words here. I'm having a hard time describing what the problem here is. If I could do that, it wouldn't be the "missing link" I'm in search of... .  

[GreenMango]

I thought I could think my way out of my psychological turmoil.

I know this really well.  Intellectualizing and thinking of the reasons is pretty familiar.  Knowing the why's for awhile seemed to help - then it didn't anymore.  I eventually had to deal with the emotions.  That took some time.

My father is bipolar and level of chaos/abuse was all over the board with his mental health- emotional, verbal and physical violence.  I thank god nothing sexual but the other stuff was enough.

I'd say I went through an extensive grief period in my late teens early twenties trying to make sense of it.  

One moment that was a real awakening was when my godmother and I were talking about it and she told me its okay to be hurt by it.  It's okay to feel it was wrong despite the reasons and whys.  And that it wasn't for me to fix.  I didn't have to make it better for anybody else but myself.

Weird thing now - my perspective on my father (and mother - they are still married) is different.  We still have a relationship which surprises me sometimes because for a time, like you mentioned, I had dreams of leaving and did leave.  It took quite a bit of work to get to a place where I wanted a relationship.  That's not for everyone though.

A lot of enabling I did/do is born out of not wanting to deal with or knowing how to deal with conflict.  I didn't learn about boundaries or assertiveness at home.  I had to learn about that.  Thinking and saying no and limits wasn't a bad thing.  This has helped quite a bit in curbing enabling.  

Giving myself permission to do the things I need has brought me a lot of acceptance and forgiveness in all this considering I didn't think I would be able to.  Go figure.

[David Dare]

This is an eye opening thread to me, because my emotions often times seem buried, and my feelings are very important to me.  Then, sometimes they seem wide open, like I'm super emotional when I shouldn't be.

Anyway, this idea of breaking through to your emotional side reminded me of a strange series of events that took place when I was with uBPDx.  During the idealization phase when things were going really great, she'd treat me really kid-like.  It felt like we were 2 kids playing around.  But then, for some reason, one night I got seriously emotional about things that took place in my childhood.  I remember it so well.  I started bawling about getting picked on at school when I was a kid.  It felt good, cleansing, but I was like, WTF?  Why is this happening now?  It happened a few more times, again about really old stuff that was stuck deep down.

There was another time about 12 years ago that comes to mind, now that I think of it.  Again, weird circumstances, I struggle to remember exactly what triggered it.  Actually, now I remember:  a friend of mine was tetering on the brink, acting really weird.  So I let him stay with me for a few days and we had these really long talks, getting to the root of what was troubling him.  It got to the point where he started bawling.  Then, a day or two later, I started bawling.  Maybe it was because I could relate to his stress (we are both fatherless) and knew exactly what he was going through at that stage in his life, or at least pretty close - being in proximity to that, to someone else, with similar pain.  And, while I think of it, it happened to a couple of other people who were also there or close to the situation.  It was really strange.  We would just talk and talk and talk, asking pinpoint questions, getting deeper and deeper.  Then boom, bawling.  It was like this strange power had come over us.

I'm sorry, I wish I could give some helpful advice or something like that, but reading this just brought all this back to me, thought I would share.

[doubleAries]

thanks yet again.

BOUNDARIES... . whew! Now THERE'S another topic! My T says this is my main issue. And like you, David D, I can't access my feelings at all, and then I'm waaaayyy to open (frequently with the very people I shouldn't be open at all with!)

GM, my exH is bipolar (with paranoid delusions, NPD and ASPD)--I know what that world is like! We've only been divorced for a few weeks, after 18 years together. We still work together and (thanks to counseling--believe it or not, he goes too) that's not too bad at all. Until the next "episode" that is... . I've been on him for years about taking responsibility for his own mental health issues instead of dumping it all on me---just learning in the past year that he CAN'T.

My mom? Doubtful we will ever create anything resembling a respectful "relationship". We never had one to begin with. My mom has never ever told me she loves me. Ever. She HAS told me repeatedly that she hates me, wishes I was never born, wishes I was dead, etc, etc, etc. Why? Because it's true--that's how she feels about me. I'm the no-good child. I struggle with whether it's because I'm BAD, but I know I've been hearing it since I could remember (at least age 2--how BAD could a 2 year old actually be?). Since I've seen nothing over the years to indicate any change in her at all, it isn't a matter of "learning how to use SET tools with her" or something--she's a dangerous person, and I would be foolish to interact with her. When I got old enough she couldn't just punch me in the mouth, her creativity in sadism really bloomed. I spent countless hours undoing damage, defending myself, and explaining. Yes, some JADE, but much more than that--sometimes explaining to police that I did not do what she called them and said I did, or explaining to employers that no, I wasn't mentally ill, that was just my mom projecting and gloating and cackling about the results (which always sounded crazier than her). No--there's no going back there. That's a bridge better left burned. Now, if I can just stop recreating it... .

I'm tired of "fixing", I'm tired of no boundaries, I'm tired of hateful self talk, I'm tired of trying to think my way out of my feelings. I just don't know how to do it differently or I would.

[Grey Kitty]

Forgiveness... . I sometimes view it as simply accepting what happened and moving on and forward with my life.

DA, it sounds like you have very good reasons to continue to avoid all future contact with your mother, even if you do forgive her for what she did in the past.

Good luck moving through this--I'll just say that for completely different reasons a completely different (and non-abusive) FOO, I know not being able to find my own feelings all too well. And don't know that I'm doing too good a job figuring out how to improve on that count.

[heartandwhole]

DoubleAries,

I just have to say that you are amazing.  Coming through what you have, and working on yourself - I am so admiring of your attitude and what you have accomplished. The comment about enablers wanting to avoid their own stuff hit home for me.  My needs have been so repressed that I have trouble finding them at all, and it's much easier to just focus on my partner's, or family member's needs, since they are right out there in front and easily recognizable. 

I resonate very much with your question of "how?" when it comes to feeling feelings, and doing things differently.  I actually posed that same question to my T: "How can I learn to do something that I've never known or experienced?"  and  her reply was: "Just like you learn anything else, read, trial and error, coming here to therapy, etc."  Huh!  I guess that kind of makes sense, I mean how else will we learn except by trying and practicing another way? It seemed too practical a response for an issue so deeply felt, and it has been a challenge for me, but with baby steps and practice, I do see a change, and more importantly, Ifeel better.

You are a wonderful model for us here taking inventory, thank you for sharing your struggles, it helps all of us, too. 

heart

[Cumulus]

DoubleAries,

I just have to say that you are amazing. 

You are a wonderful model for us here taking inventory, thank you for sharing your struggles, it helps all of us, too. 

heart

I just needed to second that DA.  I bought the book, almost wished I hadn't. It is like having the wind knocked out of me reading about Cynthia. Because I fear I was much like her, more than I can admit to myself at this point. How did I let myself get there? Why did I allow myself to become that person. I think I was manipulated and controlled into it to a large degree but where was my thinking at? This is one of the reasons I find it hard to go back. To see where I was and not to have had the tools back then to comprehend what was happening. It makes me wonder how I could ever have been so stupid. And now this shame for having been that person and a need to figure out how I can forgive myself. Cumulus.

[GreenMango]

DA I think part if the reason I tried thinking my way around all of it was a way to find acceptance.  I thought it it had to look a certain way.  It doesnt.

I've noticed that it isn't some grand gesture.  For me it became more about permission to allow myself to acknowledge that there were awful things - like my dad threatening to run into a boulevard of oncoming traffic - along with the other parts like a strong support system other places - siblings, cousins, friends, family etc.  Forgiveness was more just acceptance - good, bad, and ugly - that I can't change the past. And I can't make it better.  That was it.

Im not advocating you have any relationship with a person you don't want to at all.  Some things - the only forgiveness is to leave that person alone.    As for feeling these things rather than thinking about them - with the old wounds I got to a point where I was all "felt out".  There wasn't a whole lot to feel left.  I became indifferent to those old memories after rehashing them for so long - like an old book I had read a hundred times there wasn't anything new left to find.

I do know that sometimes my reaction time to events emotionally is on a lag.  So like when I got together with my ex events that would normally register immediately with someone didn't register with me.  I was very used to wild and erratic - like the movie King of California style - I didn't notice until things become intolerable or cross major boundaries.  Then my intial emotion is anger which I have to walk myself through so I don't do something stupid.

But it still takes me quite a bit to be ruffled or emotionally upset.  I guess I prefer to be happy, it feels better. 

Boundaries and defining normal was/is the biggest hurdle.  They help me to "recognize" when things aren't okay. 

[slimmiller]

Many points made here have given me pause... .

First of all I have to say doubleAries, I can not imagine. :'( :'( I m pretty good at being strong and in control of my emotions but had misty eyes reading some of your account. Im however amazed also how you have been able to process things as you have. It goes to show your strength and will to rise above it. 

I had to think a bit about in another conversation on this board where childhood Schemas were discussed of how we are essentially 'programmed' in our formative years and how it creates the blueprint of our future in how we react and also the environments we then tend to gravitate towards. It was like this thread, an aha moment for me. When I did some reflecting on it, it made perfect sense. My childhood was not all roses but there were of course disfunctions and I now understand much about the 'path' so to speak that led me to end up with a BPD.

I am also starting to see so much why and how I have become a co-dependent in a sense to the BPD. Or in other words, I ask myself, why the heck did I need to walk that journey and what am I to gain from it. I am a person that I could never have imagined a few years ago. Almost like the snake handler that is bitten by the snake on purpose. With each bite he dies a little and yet becomes stronger. It obviously did something to and for me in the bigger scheme of things and I m still processing it.

Along those lines, I have read some pretty in depth stuff over the last few years in trying to understand my exBPD, myself and how to best be a parent to my children. But on the other side of the coin, Some of the simplest and strait forward things made the most sense and taught me the most.

'As a man thinketh' and 'The science of getting rich'  were instrumental in getting the 'noise' in my head (negative self talk ruminating etc) to lesson. Basically I m learning what I give life in my head, and that includes space to my exBPD, the more of a presence those things will have in my life.

Im starting to understand better that the things I give passion and thoughts the most, become the most plentiful.

Dont know if this makes any sense to anyone. This thread has helped to solidify that a bit for me

Thank You all!

[doubleAries]

A great big thanks to everyone participating in this thread. All of you have given me lots to think about (if not feel  ) and research.

cumulus, my stomach hurt all the way through that book. Still does. The dynamics of the Anthony family aren't all that similar to my immediate FOO, except for the emotional oxygen being sucked out of the universe by my mom (although my paternal grandmother came to mind often while I was reading--she participated in turning one of my uncles into a nonfunctional alcoholic who couldn't leave home or get a job and was mean as they come, while she defended him relentlessly to nearly delusional lengths). But an important thing I took away from the book is that not having good boundaries (and the solid reasonable values behind those boundaries) isn't just about us getting walked on. It's about us walking on others too. Pushing ourselves on others, trying to make others conform their behavior to helping us distract ourselves from our fears and internal turmoil. Ablow pointed out a couple of times that Cindy Anthony acted as she did because she didn't/doesn't have boundaries. And he's correct.

I want to thank all of you for your supportive words. Sometimes I forget that actually, I've come pretty far (especially on my own!) and really pulled myself up by the bootstraps. I only see how far I have to go, and feel like a writhing mass of protoplasm or something.

But I know I have a long way to go emotionally too. One "event" that comes to mind was many years ago, a friend asking me some details about one of my childhood horror stories. She looked skeptical as I was telling her. I wasn't sure why. Later, she began sort of avoiding me, and finally I asked her why, what had I done wrong or offensive. She finally told me that I was a liar, and she didn't want to hang around with liars. I was pretty stunned--what had I lied about? She told me she didn't believe my story about what happened to me as a kid (and this was only what we kids in my family called a "medium velocity" story--there were worse--a LOT worse--things that happened) and that she couldn't figure out why I would make up such weird things. It took maybe another 6 months to get more info, and from another friend we had in mutual--that she believed anyone who had endured such a thing would be sobbing when they told it, and I was just too "matter of fact" and nonchalant about it, thereby making it unbelievable.

This was the first time I'd gotten such a clear outside view about my own emotional detachment. I've pondered it a lot ever since. If I ran into her all these years later and told the same story--this time with emotion--she'd likely just think I was a sociopath or something. My T also asked me once "and how do you feel now about that happening to you?" and I launched into a rant about how my moms behavior was outrageous, etc. He said "yeah, I know--so how do you feel about it? How did you feel about it at the time it happened?" All I could come up with was "angry". When in reality, I was probably terrified, hurt, alone, powerless, many other things, but I don't want to lie and say I remember emotions that I don't.

I know some people repress memories. I don't have repressed memories. Just repressed emotions. I remember what happened. But I don't remember how it felt. I remember crying about some things (not about others--I'd have gotten the tar beat out of me for crying) but not how I actually felt. I have empathy for others and what they've been through. I guess I don't for myself. And I guess that probably leads to expecting others to fill that emptiness inside for me. Which is pretty rude and co-dependent.

[GreenMango]

It's not so hard to imagine if you weren't allowed to have them, or scared of the consequences of having them, or punished when you had them, why it might be difficult now to tap into them. 

You are courageous.

[doubleAries]

I have to though. Not just because "it's good to have emotions". It's effecting me physically. I have myofacial trigger points all over my back and neck from being so tense (and not even noticing because it's "regular/normal". That kind of tenseness has caused me adrenal problems, and also causes digestion problems (sympathetic and parasympathetic response systems--relaxation [or parasympathetic nerve response] is when digestion happens properly--fight or flight mode [or sympathetic nerve response] doesn't allow proper digestion. It's not good to be hyper-vigilant all the time!)

I am always surprised how utterly physical emotions are! My T and even my medical doctor have both asked me "so what did you do with those angry or other feelings when you were a kid?" Well, I stuffed them. I swallowed them whole. Next obvious question--"OK, so where did they go?" (as if they are physical, which they do seem to be!) Um, I guess into my gut. And muscles. And the weight of the world on my shoulders (upper neck and back pain gets so bad at times my neck "freezes" up and I can't move it. That's been going on since I was a kid). I'm 48 years old now. That stuff is taking a very physical toll on me now. Just because I "escaped" from my mom, doesn't mean I escaped from myself and my own patterns, and the tendency to gravitate to situations and relationships where I can use my extreme coping skills! It's hard to combat the negative self talk when I SEE myself falling into the same hole, and can't seem to stop it from happening. That only adds to the internal psychological turmoil that I then start seeking to avoid (since I can't figure it out/think my way through it).

T keeps telling me it's OK to do for others what was never done for me, but that I have to be able to do this for myself as well. Try as I might, I don't really understand what he's talking about.

When I was about 11 or 12 years old, all my female friends at school were starting their menstrual cycles. I intuitively knew this was inherently dangerous at my house. My mom was extremely threatened by ANY other women (and even girls to a lesser degree). I do remember being very stressed out about this for many reasons, including the simple fact of not being able to talk to her about it--menstrual cycles are shameful, after all. But mostly just knowing deep inside that her hatred for me was going to escalate severely. Instead of starting menstrual cycles (which all you women know are certainly effected by physical/psychological stress), I developed OCD instead, which I was careful to tell NO ONE about--not even my trusted older brother. It was horrible. I had to count every single footstep I took, and in very specific patterns. If I didn't do it right, I had to go back to wherever I started from and start over. I did not believe that something bad would happen if I didn't do these things. In fact, I argued with myself nonstop about it, until I was in tears nearly every day. I KNEW it was nonsensical, yet I couldn't stop (it wouldn't be a compulsion if you didn't HAVE to do it). I couldn't explain it to anyone, because I knew they would say what I had already said to myself a zillion times--just stop doing it. AND I COULDN'T. And I had to deal with it by myself. Everything had to be symmetrical--if I brushed my right hand against my leg, I had to do the same thing with my left hand. I had to start all "footstep patterns" with my left foot and take 4 steps within each sidewalk section, and count them in sets of 4's. Even if it meant walking pretty funny. And I couldn't let anyone see me doing this, because they would surely ask me why I was doing it. AND I DIDN'T KNOW.

This was a torture worse than any my mother could dream up. I thought I was crazy. But my logical processes were working fine. I suppose compulsions stem out of the emotional realm--they sure caused a lot of anguish!

I no longer count my footsteps, and haven't for years. I got through it alone. But sometimes the patterns it created still appear--I catch myself counting how many times I cut the carrot or potato when I'm cooking. But I can stop. It's not a compulsion anymore, it's a residual pattern. Weird... .