DEARMAN help please

[Depression = 72% of members]

I would like to ask for help with an attempt at DEARMAN with my uBPDw.  I realize that I may not get what I am asking for, but I feel that owe it to our daughter to ask anyway.

This is my first try at DEARMAN.  Am I putting everything and the kitchen sink into it?  Am I trying to soften it too much by changing "you" into "we"?

For a bit of background, sometimes my wife openly recognizes that our daughter is only 2 years old.  Other times she attributes negative intentions to D2 and treats her as though she were much older than 2.  I may never get the consistency that I am hoping for from my wife, but I feel that I have to try this one for our daughter.

So, here's my first shot.  Have at it!  Suggestions?

D:  D2 does things that can be annoying (e.g., spills food when she eats, picks at her nails, plays a game in her own way without following the “rules”, changes her mind, does not want to eat at mealtime, wants to eat outside of mealtimes, wants to play when it’s really time to go).  These things can make most parents feel annoyed and even angry.

E:  I feel that DD does these things because of her age.  We cannot expect her to act as an older child would.  For either of us to express annoyance, or worse, disappointment or anger, may get her to stop these behaviors, but it is more likely to do so through feelings of anxiety rather than learning and internalizing what is right and wrong.

A:  I want us both to avoid expressing disappointment and anger towards DD.  Instead, remember that she is a good kid, she means well, she is only 2 years old, and she will learn at her own pace.  Correct her with respect rather than anger whenever possible.  If expressing inappropriate anger, follow up by apologizing to her.  Do not express disappointment or exasperation over anything that may actually be age-appropriate.  Do not use shame to try to make her learn anything.

R:  This will help DD build her own self-confidence, which will serve her well for the rest of her life.  And it will also build and maintain a solid, respectful, trusting relationship between her and each of us.

[zaqsert]

I would like to ask for help with an attempt at DEARMAN with my uBPDw.  I realize that I may not get what I am asking for, but I feel that owe it to our daughter to ask anyway.

This is my first try at DEARMAN.  Am I putting everything and the kitchen sink into it?  Am I trying to soften it too much by changing "you" into "we"?

For a bit of background, sometimes my wife openly recognizes that our daughter is only 2 years old.  Other times she attributes negative intentions to D2 and treats her as though she were much older than 2.  I may never get the consistency that I am hoping for from my wife, but I feel that I have to try this one for our daughter.

So, here's my first shot.  Have at it!  Suggestions?

D:  D2 does things that can be annoying (e.g., spills food when she eats, picks at her nails, plays a game in her own way without following the “rules”, changes her mind, does not want to eat at mealtime, wants to eat outside of mealtimes, wants to play when it’s really time to go).  These things can make most parents feel annoyed and even angry.

E:  I feel that DD does these things because of her age.  We cannot expect her to act as an older child would.  For either of us to express annoyance, or worse, disappointment or anger, may get her to stop these behaviors, but it is more likely to do so through feelings of anxiety rather than learning and internalizing what is right and wrong.

A:  I want us both to avoid expressing disappointment and anger towards DD.  Instead, remember that she is a good kid, she means well, she is only 2 years old, and she will learn at her own pace.  Correct her with respect rather than anger whenever possible.  If expressing inappropriate anger, follow up by apologizing to her.  Do not express disappointment or exasperation over anything that may actually be age-appropriate.  Do not use shame to try to make her learn anything.

R:  This will help DD build her own self-confidence, which will serve her well for the rest of her life.  And it will also build and maintain a solid, respectful, trusting relationship between her and each of us.

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[musicfan42]

I agree with you-it's worth asking for it anyway. I've used DEARMAN successfully in the past so it is a good technique

I think that your script is good however it's a bit too long. I would say keep it short and sweet. Stick to one sentence for each part.

I feel like saying too much almost weakens your argument whereas if you keep it succinct, it's more powerful. You don't need to explain why you want her to be calm with D2-you want it and that's it.

You ask whether you're trying to soften it too much by changing "you" into "we"-yeah, perhaps however borderlines are very sensitive to any kind of criticism so I think that sticking to "we" is for the best really. I'm interested in how others feel about this though!

For example:

D-D2 has some habits like changing her mind that can be frustrating

E-However, I feel that D2 does things because of her very young age

A-Therefore, I would like for us both to treat D2 with patience. When D2 does something like spill her food, I feel that she needs to be corrected calmly

R-I feel that correcting D2 in a calm manner will make her become a well-behaved*, happy child  

*I add the "well-behaved" part as I feel that it would be a good idea to give your uBPDw an incentive to be calm with D2.

M-stick to your point: "I feel that D2 needs to be corrected calmly". If your uBPDw argues with you, just keep repeating that key phrase (broken record technique-if you repeat it x3, she should get the idea

Oh avoid personal attacks-if your uBPDw starts to go off topic, bring it back to the subject at hand... say that phrase "I feel that D2 needs to be corrected calmly".

If your uBPDw criticises your parenting technique, I would say "I feel that we both need to correct D2 calmly" (it's still close to your key phrase and the "we" should shut her up basically).

If your uBPDw complains about how D2 acts up at times, validate her by saying "yes I understand that those behaviors make you feel frustrated however I feel that we both need to correct D2 calmly". Maybe this isn't the best attempt at validation ever but validation is NOT my strong point admittedly-that's the best I can do... maybe other people can try better!

A-Appear Confident... watch your body language... . keep your tone of voice steady and calm. Maintain direct eye contact. Don't fidget, hands down by your side. If you feel yourself getting tense, just focus on your feet being grounded into the earth (quite a hippy approach but it actually works).

Just think to yourself "this is what I want and I am going to get this". I would recommend that you give yourself a pep talk beforehand-just say to yourself "look, I'm awesome, I can wing this... I have this in the bag" etc. If you psych yourself up, you'll go in there all guns blazing and get what you want. That type of confidence is very obvious to other people.

N-Negotiate... if your uBPDw is being really awkward, then say "what do you think the best course of action for D2 is?" If you're really not getting anywhere, maybe try reducing your request. Is there a certain thing your D2 does that makes your uBPDw particularly angry? Well, try to seek an improvement on that one particular behavior. If that doesn't work, then take a time-out. Just say "I think we should discuss this tomorrow".

[AnitaL]

I agree with what musicfan42 said, especially that it would probably help to focus on your highest priority for change first, or providing just one specific example in your request rather than a laundry list of problems that could backfire.  Perhaps narrow it down to the shaming or becoming angry at your D2 for age-appropriate behavior such as spilling food? 

My uBPDh sometimes gets extremely upset when he loses patience with our stubborn D3 who is at the stage where she insists upon doing everything "by herself" and often takes forever doing so.  I get annoyed/frustrated/impatient too sometimes, but he will often say things to D3 like "Why are you doing this to me?  I've been nothing but nice to you... . " etc. as if she's doing it as a personal attack on him.  I have also reminded him that she is only 3 and this is typical behavior.  One other approach I have done occasionally is to forward him or show him an article that describes what behavior is typical at this age and what exasperated parents can do to help their children through it.  This puts it in the light of "we're all in the same boat" and makes it less specifically critical of my H's response.

Good luck!  It is definitely worth it for your daughter's sake to give it a go. 

[arabella]

Not really related to refining your DEARMAN technique but... . Does your wife even realize that she doesn't come across calmly? I'm just thinking that your problem may not lay in making your request so much as it will lay in actually obtaining the desired result. The problem is two-fold: 1) your wife might think that she already does this; and/or 2) she will agree with you but not be capable of following through. Are these possibilities?

[Grey Kitty]

Yes, perhaps something more specific than "calmly" would help--Has anybody else had the experience of speaking calmly without a raised voice and having a pwBPD yell at you to stop yelling at them?

I think there were times when my wife automatically converted anything critical of her into yelling in her own head.

[zaqsert]

Thanks, musicfan42 and AnitaL.  Very helpful.

Does your wife even realize that she doesn't come across calmly? I'm just thinking that your problem may not lay in making your request so much as it will lay in actually obtaining the desired result. The problem is two-fold: 1) your wife might think that she already does this; and/or 2) she will agree with you but not be capable of following through. Are these possibilities?

Good points, Arabella.  I think she does realize that she has little patience with our daughter and gets angry at her.  She has mentioned it a number of times herself, unprompted.  I don't think she appreciates the impact that anger and shame can have on a child.  She tends not to want to hear about these things as I learn them and offer to share them with her.  And she rarely reads related books and articles when I share them, despite the fact that she can spend many hours watching TV instead on most days.

Then there are times when my wife perceives our daughter's behavior as being much worse than I see it, and times when she seems to genuinely believe that our daughter does things to spite my wife.  I've tried SET in the latter, but my wife often then gets angry at me for taking our daughter's side and not supporting my wife.  Perhaps I just need to put up with this and hope that the message gets through somehow.

To your second point, I don't know if she will be able to follow through.  Even when she recognizes that she "lost it" with our daughter, very often she blames her short temper on someone or something else (e.g., daughter's bad behavior, my lack of support, her own hit_ physical pain, her inability to sleep through the night last night, that no one helped her when she needed help with the stroller earlier in the day).

Over the years, she has not stuck with her own therapy.  When she tried it (psychologist/psychoanalyst, unfortunately not DBT), she seems to have kept it very superficial.  In our marital therapy, there were a few occasions of genuine self-awareness, but pretty quickly those tended to shift back to blaming others or just never wanting to return to the discussion.

I have to admit I am still afraid of my wife, which is probably why I am still tiptoeing around some of this stuff.  The lessons have been great.  Rages and verbal/emotional abuse are much, much shorter, but clearly I still let myself walk on some eggshells.

Yes, perhaps something more specific than "calmly" would help--Has anybody else had the experience of speaking calmly without a raised voice and having a pwBPD yell at you to stop yelling at them?

I think there were times when my wife automatically converted anything critical of her into yelling in her own head.

Grey Kitty, my wife has done this too.  Similarly, just this weekend, after what I thought was a relatively calm conversation, she later referred to it as a fight and argument.

I'm trying to think of other terms to use in my request to my wife that would be more specific than "calmly"... .   Perhaps:

- without raising our voice

- in a supportive and teaching tone rather than an angry scolding tone

- firm when required, but not loud or angry

[musicfan42]

It's understandable that you feel afraid of your wife's anger-anger is very intimidating to other people so your reaction there is very natural.

I have found al-anon, a 12 step group for people affected by someone's drinking really effective. I had an alcoholic father and when he'd rage, I'd end up raging right back so I unfortunately developed anger issues myself. I was never afraid of anger-I'd think "bring it on" but then I became an angry person so that too was a vicious cycle and not the most effective solution to the problem. Al-anon really gave me helpful strategies to deal with an angry person-I learned how to not react... how to deal with it calmly and I think that if it works for me then it would work for anyone really. I read through "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and it was like an Al-Anon meeting really... there's a lot of crossover as it's all about codependency at the end of the day, only that Stop Walking On Eggshells is marketed towards people affected by a borderline's behavior.

If you can try mindfulness exercises, I would also recommend them however I find al-anon/12 steps a lot easier! Mindfulness is really hard!

[musicfan42]

Angry people tend to use loaded language i.e. extreme words to describe how they feel as opposed to more moderate ones.

Angry people tend to make a lot "always" and "never" statements when they're blaming other people i.e. "I always have to do everything around here", "you never take my side". It is suggested to replace "always" with the word "often" and "never" with the word "rarely". This can take the sting out of the statement as it's not as extreme.

Another thing too is using the statement "when you hit, I feel hit. I would like __". So for example, "when you leave your clothes on the floor, I feel angry. I would like you to pick up your clothes in future". That's a simple example however I just use it so you can get the gist of it.

I agree with other people that using the word "calmly" is a bit vague so maybe it might be a good idea to actually get your wife to use the statement "when you __, I feel __. I would like __" with your D2-that would be the ideal scenario. It would enable your wife to discipline your D2 in an appropriate manner, without shaming or raging. That might be too big of an initial request though so I would say maybe try asking her to replace "always" with "often" and "never" with the word "rarely". See if that request works and if it does, then up the ante and ask her to use the "when you__" statement I've mentioned.

(Your wife could have said to your D2: "when you drink the bathwater, I feel upset in case something happens to you. I would like you to stop drinking the bathwater".)

You could maybe introduce the "when you__" statement by saying that you know someone in work who has a strong-willed child and finds that statement effective in disciplining him/her so maybe it would be worth trying it out. Or just say that you heard a story about someone with a strong-willed child... whatever. Sometimes, you have to tell a white lie/make up something in order to introduce a topic. This is literally just an idea however it might make your wife more amenable to actually trying it out. If you couch it in those terms, she might think that you're taking her side more as opposed to D2's side. At the moment, it sounds like your wife thinks that you're being too soft on D2-that you're "spoiling her" so if you talk about discipline, your wife might think "oh hey, we're on the same page here after all". I would like to hear other people's feedback on my suggestions though as I'm unsure whether they're good or not... they're just ideas at the end of the day!

[123Phoebe]

Hi zaqsert

I think it's absolutely wonderful that you're willing to learn and use techniques to better your relationship and that you care so much about your daughter.

That being said, my dad tried with my mom, too.  I'm sure he didn't have DEARMAN at his fingertips though... .  

I remember him telling mom that kids self esteem needs to be built up, not torn down.  It just didn't sink in though, because to this day she tries to tear mine down.  It's laughable now in a tragic sense, but it used to work!  I'd internalize what she said, beat myself up for not being good enough and downplay most anything I had accomplished, because after all... . who do I think I am anyway?  It's not like... . insert whatever I could imagine it would be that mother would be proud of. 

I guess my point is... .   Be strong for your daughter!  Your wife's anger is BIG, your love for your daughter will need to be BIGGER than wife's anger and issues.

This stuff is deep and real, personality disorders affect everyone.  We have zero control over fixing BPD.  Have you taken a look at the Healing from a Relationship with a Parent board?  It might give you some good insight.

Knowledge is power, get it anywhere you can.  And keep being a great dad  

[musicfan42]

Links to DEARMAN:

www.bipolarsjuk.se/pdf/Handbook%20in%20DBT%20Group.pdf (all the DBT skills are in this handbook including DEARMAN... for the DEARMAN skill, turn to pg20-23, pg33 of the pdf handbook. I would recommend reading all of the interpersonal effectiveness section of the DBT skills handbook though.)

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/ie_handout_8.html (the website dbtselfhelp is great for DBT skills-it's run by a borderline lady and she gives all the information out for free)

www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/interpersonal_effectiveness1.html (written example of how to use DEARMAN)

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=160566.0 (this was a workshop thread on DEARMAN)

[arabella]

... . I think she does realize that she has little patience with our daughter and gets angry at her. She has mentioned it a number of times herself, unprompted. I don't think she appreciates the impact that anger and shame can have on a child. She tends not to want to hear about these things... .

~

Then there are times when my wife perceives our daughter's behavior as being much worse than I see it... .

~

To your second point, I don't know if she will be able to follow through.  Even when she recognizes that she "lost it" with our daughter, very often she blames her short temper on someone or something else (e.g., daughter's bad behavior, my lack of support, her own hit_ physical pain, her inability to sleep through the night last night, that no one helped her when she needed help with the stroller earlier in the day).

~

Grey Kitty, my wife has done this too.  Similarly, just this weekend, after what I thought was a relatively calm conversation, she later referred to it as a fight and argument.

I'm trying to think of other terms to use in my request to my wife that would be more specific than "calmly"... .   Perhaps:

- without raising our voice

- in a supportive and teaching tone rather than an angry scolding tone

- firm when required, but not loud or angry

Please excuse my selective editing, zaqsert - just trying to highlight a few points! There are a few interesting tidbits in there... .

First, it seems that your wife is aware of her anger. Is it possible that the reason she doesn't want to learn about the impact it has on your daughter is because she doesn't want to feel bad? i.e. She knows that the literature will paint her as a 'bad mom' - she sees the stuff you are reading/learning as personal criticism.

Second, if your wife views your daughter's behaviour differently than you do, there isn't much you can do about that. You are fighting with your W's view of reality. You can't win that battle.

Third, I suspect (and think you do too) that your W simply lacks the basic skills to fulfill your request. She can't stay calm - she has untreated BPD! So she blames external forces. She knows what she's doing isn't 'good' but she doesn't know how to regulate her emotions well enough to behave differently. So either she admits that she's basically incompetent, or she blames someone/thing else - an external factor.

Your DEARMAN request is perfectly reasonable but, based on the above, I think you may be setting yourself up for a meltdown. What if, instead of requesting that she parent more 'calmly', you request that the two of you go to therapy together to learn better parenting skills for dealing with 'difficult children'? Not that your daughter is difficult - but your W thinks she is! I would then suggest lining up a DBT therapist who can teach you both DBT skills under the pretext of effective parenting. DBT is all about learning how to implement practical skills on a daily basis, so this would probably be really helpful! Have you read "The High-Conflict Couple"? That book is recommended here quite often and is DBT skills based. So I think you could just adapt that into "High-Conflict Parenting" (using an actual therapist).

[zaqsert]

Many thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and helpful responses!

Musicfan42, "Stop Walking on Eggshells" was a huge help for me too as I was starting to learn about BPD.  Now these boards and the lessons here feel like my lifeline.

It does seem that it would be worth my trying to bring up the "when you hit, I feel hit" statements.  Perhaps a combination of suggesting them as something that I heard and also using it myself so that she sees it.  Just yesterday I saw her actively validate our D2.  That felt like a huge breakthrough.  Maybe this one will sink in somewhat similarly.  Then again, never mind that she dysregulated again today with our daughter.

123Phoebe, I liked how you put that "kids self esteem needs to be built up, not torn down."

Excellent idea to look at the Healing from a Relationship with a Parent board.  I started to look around there, and it has been eye-opening.  I had previously posted a question to the Supporting a Son or Daughter Suffering from BPD board, and members there offered lots of great suggestions too:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=202679.0

I sure hope my wife listens to some of the experts.  The issue has been consistency.  She has listened in the past.  Sometimes it helps for some period of time, but then she often falls back on her old ways or is inconsistent about it.

Oh, Arabella, you're making too much sense (I mean this in a good way!).  Thanks for the "selective editing" and putting the pieces together.  For one, my wife does seem to have a sort of selective awareness, such that no matter how well as the DEARMAN may be executed, it still could result in a meltdown.

I like your suggestion of seeing if I can get us into DBT under the guise of this being for dealing with our daughter.  Unfortunately it will probably have to wait another 6 moths or so because we are on assignment (mine) in a different country.  When we get back to the US then it should be easier.

I ended up trying a mini DEARMAN the other night (my wife wanted to tell me about how D2 got in trouble at pre-school, but I did not want to hear about it in front of D2 since it had already been addressed).  Many of my wife's non-verbals said she was annoyed at me after the mini-DEARMAN.  Maybe I'll wait a bit and see how that one plays out before thinking about bringing up this bigger DEARMAN.

Thanks for recommending "The High-Conflict Couple".  I had seen recommendations for it but have not read it yet.  I'll have to try that one soon after I'm done reading "I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better".

[Blazing Star]

Hi Zaqsert,

Sounds like you are doing really well, I know it is hard. You have been given some great feedback about your DEARMAN.

Did Yeeter mention the PET book to you? (Parent Effectiveness Training) It has really good and basic charts/examples and things talking about shaming and so on, I have been reading bits out to my pwBPD and also leaving notes on the kitchen blackboard for myself and him.

Also mine doesn't read but he will listen to things, I have a great audio by Brene Brown about Imperfect Parenting, she is a Shame Researcher, I am going to give him the audio when he is in the space, as he will listen to it rather than read it.

Keep us posted.

Love Blazing Star