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No rage but just as hard to swallow
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Topic: No rage but just as hard to swallow (Read 769 times)
Chosen
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No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
on:
July 29, 2013, 03:07:07 AM »
Took uBPDh to see a show this weekend. During the show, two kids behind us were a but noisy. I looked at them but they didn't shut up. So I turned and said "Shhh." They were quieter.
After the show, right after the lights went back on, H started lecturing me. He said that I should be gentler to the kids, gesturing to them would have worked. Saying Shhh is rude. I didn't JADE and admitted that perhaps I could handle it better (always true, right?). H isn't satisfied and kept on lecturing me all the way home. I kept my cool but then he said "Now you've f-ed up my evening", and I just said I'm sorry he thinks his evening is ruined, even though I am on his side and agree with his suggestions to me. He continued that I never reflect, U calmly told him I do, and if he doesn't believe what I say it is up to him.
The next day he acts like nothing happened. Said I love you more times than usual. Initiated kisses. I don't jump at it and didn't say much. He doesn't like it but then I'm not being passive aggressive, just not as enthusuastic as him. Talk about a ruined evening- I bought the tickets, arranged the evening and all I get is that I can't say Shhhh to kids. I winder what it is when he tells me to STFU for saying things he doesn't like. But I don't want to argue anymore. Have already wasted my money and don't want to lose my energy too.
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waverider
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
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Reply #1 on:
July 29, 2013, 03:18:36 AM »
Did you say that you did not want to ruin the evening and continue with the topic? Or try to change the subject?
Sometimes an issue can just expand to fill a space because there is nothing else being discussed. In other words just validating and being passive leaves a space for him to fill. You have to actively lead in order to divert an issue.
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DreamFlyer99
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #2 on:
July 29, 2013, 08:16:58 AM »
Hi Chosen!
That's somewhat familiar to me. for years uBPDh has thought he had the only brain of Truth in the house, my ideas were never quite good enough. I embarrassed him when I was myself and talked to people out in public, etc etc. Took me forever to realize he just couldn't stand me being different than him since his way was the only way. Once I (with the good advice of my T) started just changing the vibe a bit by saying "I just really like talking to people and hearing their stories, it's fun" and non confrontationally commenting on the fact that we are 2 different people it slowly started shifting a bit, but boy oh boy do I know where you are coming from! and it still is very imperfect.
I love what Waverider said about you needing to actively lead so that space is filled. That makes so much sense (but then you always do, Waverider
) I just never thought about it that way. I felt so cowed by his onslaughts I wouldn't do much, which let him think he was right I guess! But like I said, as I started making comment about "I know you aren't comfortable with that but I really enjoy talking to people, it's part of who I am" it started sinking in.
Of course "your mileage may vary"... . And I've had my H initiate affection that i'd usually have to ask for when he knows he's messed up, even if he doesn't admit to having been harsh/dismissive/WRONG
Familiar! Gotta say that usually just pisses me off.
I have said to him, "I know that's not something you're comfortable with, but I am" or stuff like that. Doesn't exactly fit your situation, but I get where you're going with it. The more I've gotten happy with the person I am, the me who is a complete individual aaaall on my own, the more i'm able to just state things without getting defensive (which has always been my downfall!) and the more he seems to begin to accept begrudgingly that I am not him.
This behavior they exhibit may not be as scary as the raging, but it's merely a quieter rage to me, and i'm no less unhappy with it. Know what you mean.
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Chosen
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
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Reply #3 on:
July 29, 2013, 08:44:32 PM »
I didn't continue with the topic. I didn't want to go into why I "shhh" the kids (because I previously turned and looked at them but it didn't do any good), because that will go into the JADEing territory.
I said "Hmm. Perhaps you're right. I could've handled it better next time.", which frankly speaking is the best I could've done then without either bursting into tears (MY evening ruined; I'm being lectured like a 5 year old in public), or shouting at him. But he seemed to want something else. He probably DOES want me to cry (to make me feel as bad as "I made him feel", and ask for his forgiveness.
He said several times "in the past you would at least apologise". I did apologise once, and that was it, and afterwards when he repeated I said, "From what you had said it would seem like I should apologise to the kids. But they aren't here."
I can't shut him up, because he would say, "Now I can't even express how YOU made ME feel, right?" And of course it's no time to explain he chooses how to feel about it, and actually I don't feel my actions were out of line AT ALL. But, like DreamFlyer99 said, my H can't stand when I'm not doing the same things as he is. And the fact is, he's always really lenient towards anybody and harsh towards me. Me being loud? My fault. Kids being loud and I hush them? My fault. I can never win.
Do you have any suggestions on what I could do in such a situation to try and change the topic? When he refuses to do so and just want to stay on the same topic until he gets the reaction he wants from me (although I win this time )?
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DreamFlyer99
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #4 on:
July 30, 2013, 02:28:36 PM »
Chosen:
i'm curious what someone else with more experience has to say too. I used to say "sorry!" aaaaallll the time and about everything, dumb things like me offering him something he didn't want (let's just TRIPLE the codependent/enabling/worst possible reaction!) So he always had the upper hand. Heck, I was HANDING him the upper hand!
In your same situation I think i'd probably have said "well I couldn't hear the movie with them talking in my ear" which would have led to some sort of thing about me being sarcastic/acting like he's stupid, who knows (in other words, the stuff he tends to do to me all the time.) So yep, somebody please put something in my toolbox!
I think the frustrating thing with all this is that we have to be considering every word before we open our mouths, and that's just plain exhausting!
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waverider
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #5 on:
July 30, 2013, 05:28:30 PM »
Changing the subject needs to be done before raging and dysregulation stage, when diplomacy is still possible. Proactive if you like. Once the raging starts its time to start disengaging and applying boundaries.
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Chosen
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #6 on:
July 30, 2013, 08:25:49 PM »
waverider, it would seem like I did the best I could out of my situation then.
At the end of the show, I did ask him "what do you think about the show?" But of course, not knowing he spent the last 1.5 hours being silently angry at me, he was just thinking about lecturing me. He did not say one word about the show, and frankly speaking, I never want to discuss it with him again. I told myself, I have enjoyed the show, he can't take it away from me, but I don't necessarily need to share it with him.
It seemed like I couldn't proactively say something "before" he got angry, because I didn't even know he was angry.
DreamFlyer99, I have seriously thought of telling H that "I did turn and look at the kids but they didn't seem to understand they need to stop talking, so I shushed them." But I know it won't be any good, because
1.
I would get dragged into a "discussion" on whether what I do was right (now I'm telling him I don't really think I'm wrong, but yes, his suggestion is good and I could probably have handled it better);
2.
it would sound like JADEing, and I don't feel I need to defend my actions. Honestly, I don't feel it was out of line. I'm sure if I had been making noises at a show other people would shush me as well.
I don't know... . if somebody could give me suggestions on how I could've handled it better, that would be great. But then again, he didn't rage and he "only" went on for the hour when we were going back home, so it's a lot better than it could have been.
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waverider
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #7 on:
July 31, 2013, 05:00:26 AM »
Quote from: Chosen on July 30, 2013, 08:25:49 PM
waverider, it would seem like I did the best I could out of my situation then.
Pretty much the best way to approach things and not over analyse in hindsight. You do your best and the result stills sucks and there's often nothing you can do apart from disengage and not let it bother you more than it needs to.
So I guess its more about you learning to not let things get to you, which you can control, rather than doing something to try to stop them from doing something, which as you know is out of your control. You dont have to apease them all the time.
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waverider
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #8 on:
July 31, 2013, 07:10:12 AM »
JADE is not simply explaining your action, thats fine, it is when you go into over explaining and constantly defending attempts of theirs to constantly go around your explanations. You end up feeling obliged to go into too many side issues, each one having less and less to do with the issue at hand.
In your exampling JADE would be then getting into about a debate ie to why you didn't go half an hour earlier to the bank, or why you didn't call him first or a hundred and one additional possible combinations.
It's like the child who has just discovered that "why?" is a legitimate question to anything, and responds to everything you say with the same question, simply to keep you engaged.
In short JADE is unnecessary over justifying and explaining. It doesn't mean dont explain, merely dont get side tracked while they are trying to find loop holes in your reasoning
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DreamFlyer99
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #9 on:
July 31, 2013, 02:52:58 PM »
I have a great example of the JADE thing, last night I was, uh, "given the opportunity" to practice new tools, but uBPDh's words got me straight on and I was spurting JADE everywhere!
Some people say they can tell when their SO is getting in that "mood" but so far my psychic abilities have failed me pretty much a hundred percent in that capacity... .
Our coffee pot had a big malfunction. H decided that he should be able to fix it (he's a mechanic/welder/everything by trade) and I think he was already feeling tired and stressed, so that's never a good time to do something like that. He works midnights, so this was eating into his relaxing time. I (of course) said "don't worry about that now, we have another one we can use" but he was deadset on making it work. He'd had a beer earlier, and had asked our S25 to get him another after he sat back down (frustrated because he couldn't fix it) but I mistakenly thought when he said "are you just ignoring me?" to our son it was because he had asked earlier and not gotten a response. so I said, thinking I was teasing him about getting older (we are) {small laugh sound} "and you were just in there!" This set off a ridiculous commotion of him feeling I Am Disrespectful of him and blah blah blah endlessly. He gets this "I need to sit you down and straighten you out" vibe going where he tells me I "make him feel" a certain (always bad) way when I do whatever it was this time. So I said "ah! I misunderstood" and told him what I had thought happened. This carries no weight whatsoever when he's in that mood.
Where I think I went wrong and started leaking JADE all over the place is when:
--He doesn't actually give a crap WHAT I thought happened
--Starts repeating his same song, reaches into the past and grabs a handful of previous disagreements (refer here to "our whole life" and I, in all my "wisdom," REPEAT my explanation thinking (foolishly) "maybe he will hear me THIS time and understand!" which loops me back to:
--He doesn't actually give a crap WHAT I thought happened... . so he
--Starts repeating his same song, reaches into the past and... .
(lather, rinse, repeat.)
I think i'll start my own acronym: LOOP. Lack Of "Other" Perception. They can't see the other person's point of view, only their own. Then I can remind myself to "stay out of the LOOP."
I think it's the length of time we spend re-explaining. Saying it once is giving information. After that we're part of their never-ending loop of old tapes in their head, like your sister said.
I love this that 123Phoebe said:
Excerpt
You can't control whether or not (might) he rages later. All you can control is what you will do in the face of the rage.
this is the part I need to arrive at more quickly.
Chosen, the whole thing Waverider said:
Excerpt
Pretty much the best way to approach things and not over analyse in hindsight. You do your best and the result stills sucks and there's often nothing you can do apart from disengage and not let it bother you more than it needs to.
So I guess its more about you learning to not let things get to you, which you can control, rather than doing something to try to stop them from doing something, which as you know is out of your control. You don't have to appease them all the time.
So true. And I really struggle with this. After hearing my H's and my--ahem--"discussion" and I had gone upstairs to remove myself from the situation realizing I was having chest and arm pain as a result, our lovely S25 who lives at home texted me to make sure I was okay and remind me to not let it get me down, that's his reality (my H's.)
Waverider, do I understand this correctly, this JADEing thing? Cuz i'm pretty sure I rode the JADE hard last night... .
Also, the making-someone-feel- hurt/disrespected/etc is in the receiver's interpretation, correct? Is this in the difference between my intent and his interpretation? like the situation with Chosen in the theatre? (after which point I would have sworn to never go to the theatre with my H again... . till I forgot and did it again, opening myself to the same LOOP. )
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waverider
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #10 on:
July 31, 2013, 05:49:51 PM »
Quote from: DreamFlyer99 on July 31, 2013, 02:52:58 PM
Waverider, do I understand this correctly, this JADEing thing? Cuz i'm pretty sure I rode the JADE hard last night... .
JADE is not really the repeating the same thing, thats just stuck in the loop and you need to disengage with something along the lines of" I've already told you what I mean I'm not going to keep repeating myself" then disengage.
My partner attempts this by keep rephrasing the same question trying to get a different answer.
JADE is where your "explanation" keeps getting broader with more and more side issues being dragged into it until you are in a place that seems to have nothing to do with the original issue. You will sense when you are there as you will feel sidetracked and making justifications that feel less and less relevant. You are being out maneuvered onto a different, and more favorable to them, area of conflict.
Getting back to the original topic of Chosens, she did fine, gave the basic explanation,. The fact that it was not enough for H is his problem, she could have been tempted into JADE until he found an issue he could be more justifiably indignant about. Instead she disengaged, rather than getting frustrated repeating herself, which is the right thing to do. He wasn't happy, but that's his stuff. Next step is to learn how to not let his sulking about his stuff from bothering her too much. Hard I know, but it is something she has some control over. What I do to help me here is I visualize a mental "shrug","eyeroll", "whatever". DONT outwardly actually do it though!
It is not essential they accept your explanation, but it is essential that you dont get dragged into irrelevant issues in an attempt to achieve acceptance
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DreamFlyer99
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #11 on:
August 01, 2013, 03:06:56 AM »
OH GOOD! not that we're all IN this kind of mess, but that apparently I did NOT ride the JADE hard... . i'm the one that tries to keep the subject specific, and not all over the map.
Phew. Maybe i'm learning--slowly.
I guess it's the "letting go of the result" part that I still stumble over, because H refused to accept my explanation of what I said. Apparently if it does not coincide perfectly with his view of my more evil intent it can't be true. But there was nothing I could do about that. I was just mad at myself for not catching that I repeated myself. But I did not "go wide."
NOW I am truly starting to understand JADE--thank you, Waverider and Chosen! Your explanations really helped.
I do think I see in my H's case where this stuff happens when he's feeling the most fragile for whatever reason, and the little boy comes out more easily, the traumatized one who reads evil into whatever I do. When these attacks on my character hit, my Fibromyalgia takes a hit along with it, flaring up my symptoms. Which I do tell him.
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DreamFlyer99
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Re: No rage but just as hard to swallow
«
Reply #12 on:
August 01, 2013, 04:52:40 PM »
... . Tho I struggle with knowing what I change about me may not have an affect on my uBPDh... . since it's his choice to grow or not. But i'm still learning valuable things for me that can help alleviate the bomb affect his words/actions have on my physical and mental well-being.
The hardest was when I asked my T, "So, to remain in this relationship I have to be willing to accept that he may never change a thing, may still rage, may still never want to have sex with me, I may never have my needs met... . ?" and she looked at me compassionately and said,
"Yes."
Dang.
And to quote one of the best things she ever taught me, "Hope can only be about the things you can work on, the things you can take steps on. Anything else is 'wishing' or 'magical thinking.'" Hard fact. And I don't say that to rip any "hope" out from under anyone, just to remind us all that the only person we can change is us.
Here's to learning and growth!
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