Is there a problem?

[Matt]

Just got a weird call from my ex... .

Married 12 years, separated 2006, divorced 2008, kids now S15 and D16, plus SD23 and SS35.

50/50 custody (on paper) of S15 and D16, but they spend most of their time with me.

Mom took them to the doctor yesterday for a check-up;  I knew about it and said no problem.

S15 has some skin problems so I suggested she get a referral to a dermatologist.

The doctor also asked to talk to S15 alone, without Ex in the room.  Today the doctor called her and said she thinks S15 is sad and needs some attention.  The doctor said "He seems comfortable talking to me - why don't you bring him to see the dermatologist and I can talk more with him then?"  Ex thinks he's sad - quiet - few friends.  "He doesn't do anything."  I don't see it quite that way - he is introverted but seems very happy to me.  His interests are the TV show Dr. Who and other nerdy stuff like that.  He likes to cook and knit, but also likes some active stuff - goes to the gym now - asked if he could be on the swim team - certainly no athlete but perfectly healthy except normal skin issues.

Ex's sister had also said to me, "He's so sad!" but I didn't pay that much mind because she sees him away from home, and he doesn't prefer to be away from home.  He's polite, smart, funny, and has friends at school, but over the summer doesn't hang out with them - just hangs out at home.

I'm a little suspicious of the whole thing - Ex, her sister, and the doctor she picked all think he's "sad".  I also think it's odd that a General Practitioner should focus so much on his personality.

I asked for the doctor's number and I'll call her tomorrow and just see what she says.  I told Ex that I'm OK with him talking to a professional, but it might be best if it's a counselor not a GP.  In the past, Ex has asked him about talking to someone and he has always said no;  a few years ago I had both kids in counseling and that went OK but he didn't open up much.

I'm concerned about S15 feeling that his parents are telling him he's not OK, and I'm also concerned about letting Ex's views become mine - that happened when we were married - in trying to be cooperative I bought into some of her fantasies that turned out to be complete baloney.  I want to go with my perceptions, not hers.

But I share some of these traits with S15 - rather stay at home, prefer a few casual friends - not a party animal, etc.  So I may be seeing it as OK because it's OK for me - maybe not best for him.

Thoughts anybody... . ?

Thanks,

Matt

[FamilyLaw]

Matt, the GP or pediatrician may have focused on it because they are getting much better these days at looking out for depression in kids and teens, or it may just have been because Mom was focusing on it.  Definitely a good idea to talk to the Dr. and see where the idea came from.

Then maybe a conversation with him about how he's feeling and whether he'd like a neutral party/counselor to talk with.  I don't doubt that he is probably something of an introvert, but it could be that he feels odd and at this time in his life he needs someone to validate him and let him know that its okay to be different, if that is what makes him happy.

[Matt]

Matt, the GP or pediatrician may have focused on it because they are getting much better these days at looking out for depression in kids and teens, or it may just have been because Mom was focusing on it.  Definitely a good idea to talk to the Dr. and see where the idea came from.

Then maybe a conversation with him about how he's feeling and whether he'd like a neutral party/counselor to talk with.  I don't doubt that he is probably something of an introvert, but it could be that he feels odd and at this time in his life he needs someone to validate him and let him know that its okay to be different, if that is what makes him happy.

Thanks - that's kind of how I'm thinking.  I'll try to talk to the doctor today - I could even go over there if needed - and then S15 and I will be driving 2 1/2 hours tomorrow, to pick up SD, so we'll have plenty of time to talk.

The funny thing is, if I was to name someone I know who seems to fully believe that "it's OK to be different if that's what makes him happy", it would be S15.  For example, he's completely un-self-conscious about knitting - he sits listening to music or watching TV and knitting - proudly shows me stuff he has done - a tendency to almost-finish, and then pull it apart because it's not perfect, and start over - more therapeutic than productive - but not shy at all about it.

Same with his geeky fascination with ":)r. Who" - not something everybody can appreciate - nobody else in the family shares that interest, but it doesn't keep him from talking on and on about it, obviously excited about a new episode and eager to share that even if we don't get it.

"It's OK to be different if if makes you happy" could almost be his motto.

[Free One]

I think it's a great idea for you to talk to Dr, then get a referral for counseling. It is GP's place to bring up noticed issues, but aside from prescribing meds, they wouldn't be the one to treat it.

I know it can be hard to face something like depression in your child. My own son's (S8) pediatrician diagnosed him as being depressed at his last check up (it was, however, a check up specifically to get a referral for counseling). I was surprised at how quickly and easily she came to that conclusion based solely on interviewing me and my son.  It was hard for me to accept because I have worked so hard at taking care of him and help him deal with everything, and quite frankly, because depression runs in MY family. But, I realized the Dr was right. She was spot on with her observation. Son's T, however thinks the depression is situationally appropriate and just wants to continue on course with therapy.

I can understand how you are suspicious of ex about this and you are probably wondering what motives she might have to get a professional to diagnosis son as depressed. Maybe he is downright depressed when he is with her. Maybe past mentions of him being sad have been her own projections of being sad. You may never know. However, your son is at a very vulnerable age, with many hormonal changes and you may be too close to see any signs of depression. It's not worth the risk.

[Matt]

My home:

* Very pleasant, woody neighborhood;  deer sometimes walking through our backyard

* Neighbors mostly professionals or retired - very friendly

* Very little traffic

* Small but nice house

* Cable TV

* Internet - each kid has their own computer

* Walking distance from their school

* Some of their friends live nearby

* Calm and positive environment in our home - little stress

Their mom's home (which I have never entered):

* Not a very good neighborhood - the kids are ashamed of it

* No friends nearby

* No place they can walk to

* No cable TV

* No internet

* Neighbors - some are kind of scary

* Small apartment - not very nice

* No laundry - they have to wait til they're with me to wash their clothes

* Mom is untreated BPD and other stuff - sometimes very nice to them but sometimes pretty crazy (but not extreme as when we were married)

The kids clearly feel more comfortable with me.  :)16 has sleepovers with friends here, but never at Mom's.  S15 makes money shoveling snow for my neighbors, but never in Mom's neighborhood.

When I've mentioned, "If you want to stay here more it's OK with me", he's always talked about being "fair to Mom", and I've let it go.  In fact they spend much more time with me than with her, but there has never been a "decision" to stay with me full-time or on a regular schedule greater than 50%.

Of course this aspect is self-serving - I want them with me more, and I'm tired of pretending it's 50/50, or ever was, or should be.

Maybe at some point I just say, "It's clear S15 does better when he's here more, so that's what needs to happen - now."  A good counselor might facilitate that step, but I'm concerned this GP will not be ready to step up after just one or two talks with him.

By the way, our Custody Evaluator in 2008 predicted that S15 would do better with me, as he grew up, and wrote in his report that we should consider allowing him more time with me.

(I called and left a message for the doctor - hope she'll call back today or tomorrow.)

Thanks!

Matt

[Matt]

Not sent - just thinking out loud here:

From:   Matt

To:  Ex

Re:  S15

Based on what you, your sister and Dr. GP said, I think there could be an issue with S15 being unhappy at times.  I do not see it at home - actually the contrary - I think he's very happy.  I do share your view that it would be good for him to gain skills for building friendships.

Let's get a referral from Dr. GP for a counselor - could be a Ph.D. or MSW - and arrange for S15 to see her once or twice a month.  We should share the cost.  S15 initially didn't want to see a dermatologist either, but after he had lived with the idea for a few weeks, when I mentioned it again, he said OK;  maybe we can do the same with the coiunselor - not "force" it but make it clear that it's the right thing to do, and what we expect of him, and I think that will work.

I think it's important that we both present it to S15 not as a "fix" to a "problem" with him - I don't think there is necessarily a problem or that he needs to be fixed - but just as one more teacher in his life, this one to teach social skills.

A key aspect to this is his everyday environment.  For whatever reasons, he seems to be happy when he's here.  He has always talked about "fairness" when we discuss the schedule, but "fairness" to you and me should not be the issue - what's best for S15 should be.  And our Custody Evaluator told us to expect this might happen as he got older - he might do better here.

So let's just make that change - it's been coming a long time and there's no reason to avoid it any longer.  I'm open to specifics, and we can let S15 have input - my thinking would be, he should make this his permanent home, til he leaves for college, but he can arrange to spend time (and overnghts) with you as he chooses, just no weekly back-and-forth.  I won't block you and S15 working out visits however is convenient for you both, especially as I will probably continue to be in City one or two nights a week for the foreseeable future.

Unless there is a big reason not to make this change, I'll talk with him about it soon, and we can make it happen before school starts the 14th.

[Free One]

Maybe at some point I just say, "It's clear S15 does better when he's here more, so that's what needs to happen - now."  A good counselor might facilitate that step, but I'm concerned this GP will not be ready to step up after just one or two talks with him.

Yes, maybe this is an opportunity for you to make these changes.

You really won't know the whole story until you talk to the Dr. You don't know what spin ex has put on it.

[slimmiller]

Your son sounds little different from mine s11. I constantly monitor him and he appears at times to be down but he is really just a quite somewhat introverted kid. In school he does well and makes friends well he just does not spent a lot of time with them outside of that. Its usually the other kids calling him and wanting to talk instead of him calling them.

I have had some issue recently with my ss13. His mother (my exBPD) texted me and asked if I would call him as she talked to him while he was with his dad. I hadnt heard from him in a  few days and did call him then. He started saying that mom was texting me and he ignored her. When I asked why he said he just didnt want to talk to her. He is afraid to tell her though as she would lash out at him for it. She had mentioned in her text that he seemed 'sad' but then also a very telling statement which surprised me (coming from her) 'maybe its just me'

I definitely think BPDs in their mind at times extrapolate the 'sad' part and especially as it relates to the kids changeing moods as they get older. Kids thought processes change and in my case, the BPD latches onto it and makes a mountain out of a mole hill.


I would definitely want to talk to the GP about it. I think it seems odd the a GP would make that assumption/assesment in the first place unless it was glaringly obvious that he has a problem and if that were the case I think you too would have noticed it already as you seem to be an aware an observant parent. Thats something I would not think of of the one that has the BPD (your sons mother)


I have a daughter d7 that has a whole other set of problems/issues that are more complicated then my s11

[Matt]

Yeah, she definitely tends to project her own feelings onto others at times, and she has issues with depression, so that may be part of the story.

I'm also noting that all three people who have talked about this have used the word "sad";  and that the other two - Ex's sister and the doctor - were primarily in touch with her and could have been influenced by her;  and that her sister has bought into Ex's stories in the past, like when Ex accused me of stuff - the sister was very cold toward me and said some things that were unfair, but she's warmed up some over the years.

So I do think it's likely that this "sad" issue is coming partly or completely from Ex's mind.  But I'm eager to talk to the doctor... .

[mamachelle]

Matt,

I just want to add in that the 'talk alone' with the doctor is normal for teens now. They ask them questions at these general appointments about if they are sexually active and the like.

It is possible that your S15 was asked direct questions and felt off put and defensive about his life and that translated into "sad". Also likely Mom is using word sad with doctor or brought it up. Also likely he is not comfortable with Mom and like my SS15 he tunes her out. We found that SS15 tuned out women in general when he started therapy at 9 and does better with male therapists. Your S may prefer a woman. I don't know but all these factors including mom's projection are likely playing into it.

It will be interesting to hear what the doctor has to say. Depression is something you want to treat.

My neuropsych for my kids has said in talking about social interactions that there are some kids that seek out social situations and do fine. Other kids seek friendships and fail. Still others aren't too interested in friends and are more naturally loners and content with few friends or interactions.

mamachelle

[Matt]

It is possible that your S15 was asked direct questions and felt off put and defensive about his life and that translated into "sad". Also likely Mom is using word sad with doctor or brought it up. Also likely he is not comfortable with Mom and like my SS15 he tunes her out. We found that SS15 tuned out women in general when he started therapy at 9 and does better with male therapists. Your S may prefer a woman. I don't know but all these factors including mom's projection are likely playing into it.

Yes, I think all these are likely.  S15 is smart and can think like an adult, but will tend to withdraw around adults he doesn't know - polite but reserved - and that could be interpreted different ways I suppose.  I am also conscious that the word "sad" came from Ex - she was telling me what the doctor said - not from the doctor herself.  I think it's very possible that the doctor never used that word, or used it only as a reflection of something Ex said - not as her own perception... .

It will be interesting to hear what the doctor has to say. Depression is something you want to treat.

Yes, if this is "depression".  Both Ex and I have dealt with depression - hers as a symptom of her psych disorders, and mine situational after deaths in the family and other serious events in my life.

I'm very reluctant to label a child and "treat" something unless it's very clear that it's really a problem.  Counseling can be a good thing even when there's no "problem" to be treated, but if Ex and/or the doctor are eager to label him "depressed" I'll be slow to buy into that, because I don't see it with my own two eyes (and none of his teachers have said anything either - they know him pretty well - much better than the doctor does.)

My neuropsych for my kids has said in talking about social interactions that there are some kids that seek out social situations and do fine. Other kids seek friendships and fail. Still others aren't too interested in friends and are more naturally loners and content with few friends or interactions.

S15 is certainly the latter - I hate the label "loner" but it more-or-less fits.  But he has chosen - with no prompting from me - to join the swim team recently, and before that a team academic challenge which meant lots of time with a co-ed group of peers.  Not a complete "loner".

I have to acknowledge that these are traits I shared at his age, and still do to some extent.  If counseling would help him develop social skills he lacks, that could be a good thing, but I also think it's very important that we accept him for who he is and not communicate that we think something is wrong with him just because he doesn't act the way we wish all the time.

Still hoping to hear back from the doctor but I have the impression I'll need to be patient about that.

[GaGrl]

Matt, my son (who is now 30) was a geeky, unusual young man, and I worried about his introversion.  I sometimes watched him leave for school with his huge, heavy backpack, violin case, glasses and red hair and thought, "Oh my God, he's a bully target if there ever was one."

When he was 16, he really needed his Dad more, and that's when we decided it would live with his Dad, drive back to his regular school each day (best charter school in our state), and see me primarily on weekends.  That's also when we felt it best that he go back into counseling again for awhile.

I think it's typical of that age -- I know 15 was my toughest year in adolescence!

Good for you for being open to what he needs now.

[Matt]

Matt, my son (who is now 30) was a geeky, unusual young man, and I worried about his introversion.  I sometimes watched him leave for school with his huge, heavy backpack, violin case, glasses and red hair and thought, "Oh my God, he's a bully target if there ever was one."

When he was 16, he really needed his Dad more, and that's when we decided it would live with his Dad, drive back to his regular school each day (best charter school in our state), and see me primarily on weekends.  That's also when we felt it best that he go back into counseling again for awhile.

I think it's typical of that age -- I know 15 was my toughest year in adolescence!

Good for you for being open to what he needs now.

Yeah, this could be viewed as, a young man needs his dad - duh.

So here's what the doctor said - she called me this afternoon:

* She administered a questionnaire to both kids, and on S15's he indicated "periods of deep sadness", sometimes up to 2 weeks, over the last year, and checked "I have thought about hurting myself" and "I sometimes feel too alone".  She thinks these responses are clear indicators of an issue that needs attention.

* A Ph.D. therapist would be available once every week or two - first appointment one hour, with a parent present part of the time, and 30 minutes after that.

* The doctor thinks it's OK for me to talk to S15 about the questionnaire and their conversation, because these issues are serious enough to override his expectation of confidentiality.

* I suggested that I could talk with the dean at his school, who both S15 and I know well, and who would be able to poll his teachers, to see if there is insight there, and she said that would be a good idea.  I left a message and I'm sure he'll call me tomorrow.

* I told her I'll be in the car with him for a couple hours tomorrow and described how I will raise the subject - ":)r. GP and I talked - she said the questionnaire raised some concerns for her and she discussed those with you - so what do you think about that - what do you think would be helpful... . ?" - and she said that sounded good - open questions not yes/no.  I think he'll probably talk to me in the car.

* I want to plant the seeds for counseling, and I asked her to keep the focus on "resource" not "problem".

* She asked about the custody situation and I described it, and mentioned his mom's diagnosis, and lack of treatment, and how that may be relevant.  She didn't say much but I think she got it.

So depending on how my talk with S15 goes, I may wait til his next appointment in a few weeks, or I might accelerate and make an appointment with the therapist.

[Free One]

Good. I'm glad you got answers and have a game plan. I am also glad your son felt comfortable enough to answer honestly on the questionnaire. I think that is valuable information. I'm sure he has been through a lot of confusing times with his mom and I hope he is open to counseling to learn some new coping skills. Good luck!

[Matt]

I briefly mentioned it to D16, who is very close to him and insightful.  She said she hadn't noticed anything, except not spending much time with friends.

[Matt]

I talked with S15 in the car today.

He said there's no problem and he thinks counseling isn't needed.  He couldn't explain why he wrote those things on the survey but said he's feeling better now than a year ago.  He thinks learning skills for building friendships might be worthwhile.

I told him I would think about it, and if I decided that counseling is for the best I will expect him to take part and not be passive, and he seemed to accept that.  I told him both his mom and I have experienced depression, and I got help for it, and it helped.  I asked him to focus on learning to tell someone that he needs to talk, when he's feeling bad, and I think he got that too, but I was doing most of the talking - he wasn't arguing but he wasn't necessarily buying in either.

I'm still trying to reach the school's vice principal, who knows S15 well and might have some insights, and will surely be willing to keep his eyes open.

My thinking now is to wait a few days, or a week, and talk with S15 again, and if that doesn't resolve anything, to let him talk again to the doctor in a few weeks and see how that goes.

One thought I have is that if I set up an appointment for counseling, he will at least learn the lesson that expressing thoughts of self-harm will result in something;  he won't go through life expressing those thoughts and not being heard.  That may lead to more care in expressing those thoughts, or it might lead to a relationship with a counselor;  either might be better than if I did nothing and ignored what he wrote... .

[Free One]

One thought I have is that if I set up an appointment for counseling, he will at least learn the lesson that expressing thoughts of self-harm will result in something;  he won't go through life expressing those thoughts and not being heard.  That may lead to more care in expressing those thoughts, or it might lead to a relationship with a counselor;  either might be better than if I did nothing and ignored what he wrote... .

You can't ignore it. He expressed it, for whatever reason. I'm glad you guys were able to talk. I know you love your son and have done many things to help him be successful, so please don't take this the wrong way, but maybe he doesn't feel safe talking to you about these particular feelings. They are probably confusing for him, and with his mom, you don't know if she has planted a seed in his mind that having these kinds of feelings mean there is something "wrong" with you. Maybe he doesn't want to hurt you.

How many times have you heard of a teen hurting themselves and their friends and family never saw it coming? I know a couple who's young adult son killed himself, and they BOTH work in the mental health field with troubled teens. It's just too important to not take action on, in my opinion.

[mamachelle]

Hi Matt,

I'm glad you have talked with the doctor and your son and getting things more clear now.

Your plan to have him go to counseling is good. If he were to express those thoughts in school then he would have had to talk with the social worker and most likely had to talk with a MD before returning to school depending on the situation.

I think often boys and guys in general are good at compartmentalizing their feelings and if your S15 is a black/white thinker he may have answered those questions honestly because they seem rather general and span a long time period. He may feel that way sometimes but not all the time.

At any rate, it's best in my opinion to schedule him for counseling yourself -- then you control the choice of therapist and you show Mom and S and his doctor that you are taking this seriously.

After the first few appointments, I would continue for once a month check in appointments even if all is ok. I think your S may need a neutral place to talk about things.

My SS15 does not do really well with talk therapy because he has trouble with talking through things-- but he needs it and it is useful for dealing with situational issues like something that comes up with school or biomom. We schedule only 30 minute appointments now as he did not have enough to say for 45 minutes. His therapist knows his BioMom and understands her issues and is good too with sorting out what are his issues and what are hers. My one concern is that the T missed how serious things became with my SS15 when he was majorly depressed and that was in part due to the fact that SS15 did not open up well and would just mumble that all was fine... . It's still on you to keep an eye on things at home as best you can.

mamachelle

[Matt]

Yeah, the risk of doing nothing is definitely bigger than the risk of doing something.

I'm sure you're right - we have a good relationship but I'm still Dad, not a buddy and not a confidential resource like a counselor.  I certainly would never have said to my dad, "I'm sad and I want to talk about it." or anything like that.

Choice of therapist - we live in a pretty small mountain town so there aren't too many choices, and I haven't found any Ph.D. psychologists who do work like this.  Usually Ph.D.s are very expensive.  But this facility is intended primarily for Native Americans - my kids are Navajo - so the cost is low.  My thinking might be to meet with him first - maybe briefly - and then judge.  There are probably others in town who could do it well - doesn't have to be a Ph.D.

[mamachelle]

My thinking might be to meet with him first - maybe briefly - and then judge.  There are probably others in town who could do it well - doesn't have to be a Ph.D.

I think that sounds good.

[Matt]

Sent to his mom:

I talked with the doctor Wednesday, and with S15 yesterday.

Of course S15 does not believe there is a problem or that counseling is needed.  The doctor said her concern was triggered by a survey he took, on which he indicated thoughts of self-harm – not just the doctor’s subjective perceptions.  S15 could not explain why he wrote those things but said he is fine, and doing better now than a year ago.

I told him I would think about it and discuss it with you, and that if we decide counseling is wise I will expect him to actively participate and not refuse to work with the doctor.

One reason to go forward with counseling may be to connect our decisions with his choice to write those things and present himself as he did to the doctor;  if he wants to be perceived as “OK” he should act OK, and if he projects a problem he will be treated accordingly.  Doesn’t seem right to ignore any indication of self-harm even if it wasn’t real to him.

I also want him to develop the ability to ask for help – the ability to say to adults and peers, “I’m not doing so well right now and I need to talk to someone.”  Talking about his problems and feelings as a way to cope, better than other coping strategies like withdrawal or drinking.

I still see him as OK;  on this trip picking up SD23 he has been calm and happy.  I talked with him about when he feels bad and he gave me no specifics.  My guess is that he is at the point the psychologist predicted in 2008, when he would be needing both more freedom and more structure, and I think he gets that when he’s with me, but I believe he is both stressed and bored when he’s at your place.  I think part of the solution might be for him to live primarily with me (though I expect to continue being gone 1 or 2 nights a week).  I don’t want to fight about the issue, but I frankly see no logic in making him continue to spend half his time at your place – he sees it as a “fairness” issue which is not how the decision should be made.  So let’s talk about how that might work – maybe if I’m usually gone Friday and Saturday he spends Friday night with you every week – I’m open to ideas but suspect he will do better with a more consistent environment.

So here’s what I would suggest:

•   We follow through with the GP, as you left it with her – she can talk with S15 again and we can get her advice about the emotional issues.  Then let’s you and I talk – maybe with the doctor, and then with each other and S15, and decide how to proceed.  The doctor told me the Ph.D. psychologist is only there on Thursdays, but it may be possible to get him in weekly, or every other week, for a few appointments, and see how it goes.  One thing I think we’ll need to do is have a clear presentation to S15 as to the purpose – he seemed open about “skills to build friendships”, and I think also “getting good at asking to talk when you’re sad” – how we present it to him may be pretty critical for him to see the value of counseling.

•   Let’s also talk soon – before school starts – about the schedule.  My view is, S15 should be more-or-less full-time at my place, but should also be free to work out time with you whenever works well for you both.  I’d like to get away from the “obligation” to go back and forth all the time.

[Matt]

Talked with my ex:

* She is in agreement that counseling is probably best.  I will set up an appointment - just me first - then with S15 if the counselor seems like a fit.

* She is in agreement about the school's vice principal.  I'll call him too.

* She is OK with S15 spending most of his time here, and that he shouldn't stay here alone, so he'll stay with her when I travel on business, typically one or two nights a week.

* I'll talk with S15 about this soon, and then with D16 to see what she thinks will be the best schedule for her.  My guess is she'll stay with something closer to 50/50, which will mean some nights at different houses - probably a good thing since the kids get on each others' nerves at times.  She'll still be here after school, and I imagine she'll continue to spend 2/3 or 3/4 of her time here - same as in the past.

It went pretty well.

[Free One]

Talked with my ex:

* She is in agreement that counseling is probably best.  I will set up an appointment - just me first - then with S15 if the counselor seems like a fit.

* She is in agreement about the school's vice principal.  I'll call him too.

* She is OK with S15 spending most of his time here, and that he shouldn't stay here alone, so he'll stay with her when I travel on business, typically one or two nights a week.

* I'll talk with S15 about this soon, and then with D16 to see what she thinks will be the best schedule for her.  My guess is she'll stay with something closer to 50/50, which will mean some nights at different houses - probably a good thing since the kids get on each others' nerves at times.  She'll still be here after school, and I imagine she'll continue to spend 2/3 or 3/4 of her time here - same as in the past.

It went pretty well.

Glad it went well! Hope she follows through with her agreements.

[DreamGirl]

 

She struggles with her parenting when it comes to the male children doesn't she?

I like that you're kind of giving her "out" here while getting your goals accomplished.

[Matt]

She struggles with her parenting when it comes to the male children doesn't she?

I like that you're kind of giving her "out" here while getting your goals accomplished.

Well she has always idealized the girls, and she definitely painted SS35 black.  S15 I think she has treated OK - not painted all-black all the time... .

My guess is, what's happening is that she's just doing OK with managing her stresses, and when she has a bad day, she either withdraws - goes to bed right after dinner, for example - or lashes out at the kids.  She's very skilled at pushing peoples' buttons - saying exactly what makes you feel bad about yourself - and I can kind of recognize that and externalize it, but kids probably can't do that, so it makes them feel bad when they are vulnerable.  I think that's probably the heart of SS35's problems - he started drinking at 12, drugs a few years later, never sober til his late 20s - and in a milder form it may be what's driving S15's issues now... .

SD23 is home now, for a few weeks.  She was damaged too, but in a different way which I don't understand very well.  She was treated as perfect - never punished - and her behavior was great til she was about 16.  Then she began to rebel.  Now she's got a kind of weird relationship with her mom - I don't understand it - she won't even talk with me about any of these issues or acknowledge any problems, but she also doesn't seem to have a positive relationship with her mom.  And she is obsessed with race issues, frequently implying she was raised in a racist environment - she is Native American and I'm white, as is her biodad - when in reality she grew up in a very accepting multiracial area and never experienced racism to my knowledge.  Weird and unhealthy in my view, but I really don't have a clue how she came to this place, or how it relates to her mom's all-good view of her as she grew up.

D16 seems very healthy right now - unsinkable.

[Deb]

And she is obsessed with race issues, frequently implying she was raised in a racist environment - she is Native American and I'm white, as is her biodad - when in reality she grew up in a very accepting multiracial area and never experienced racism to my knowledge.

Matt, as a child of a Native American father and a white mother,I went through something like this in college. I loved my mother dearly, but went through a phase where I did not want her to be white. It was more or less and identity struggle. I got over it. Top the point that I can celebrate both my heritages: I go to Pow wows and Highland Games. I have dance regalia for the pow wows and a Highland Ladies outfit. But I went through a time when I was really really obsessed with race too. Hopefully, your SD will come to a place like this in time.

[Matt]

And she is obsessed with race issues, frequently implying she was raised in a racist environment - she is Native American and I'm white, as is her biodad - when in reality she grew up in a very accepting multiracial area and never experienced racism to my knowledge.

Matt, as a child of a Native American father and a white mother,I went through something like this in college. I loved my mother dearly, but went through a phase where I did not want her to be white. It was more or less and identity struggle. I got over it. Top the point that I can celebrate both my heritages: I go to Pow wows and Highland Games. I have dance regalia for the pow wows and a Highland Ladies outfit. But I went through a time when I was really really obsessed with race too. Hopefully, your SD will come to a place like this in time.

Thanks Deb - that sounds about right, except maybe the intensity of the whole thing, and the passive-aggressive stuff that reminds me of her mom.

Here's an example - maybe won't sound like much - you had to be there... .

Saturday SD23, D16, S15 and I went to visit SS35.  SD hadn't seen him in a year - she doesn't take his phone calls and doesn't write to him.  (He's Navajo - both parents - so the one more-or-less full-blooded Navajo in our family, she treats like dirt, while she postures as pro-Native... . )

SD23 and the other kids had runny noses.  She told me I should take them to the doctor and get antibiotics - maybe a good idea - but "I can't go to the doctor because I'm not blessed with health insurance."  Get that - "blessed with" - I pay hundreds of dollars a month for health insurance - I work hard for that money - she has never worked full-time in her life - she got an Ivy League education at virtually no cost to herself - and health insurance at almost no cost while she was in school - and if she had bothered to ask me, I might have been able to get her onto my plan after she graduated (she's going back to school soon so it's probably moot) - but somehow the kids and I have been "blessed with" health insurance.

Massive sense of entitlement, I guess is what I'm saying, which is somehow mixed up with race in her mind (I think).  But when it's time for her to help someone else - like maybe write to her brother once in a while, or pick up the phone when he calls - she can't be bothered... .

I do have the hope that it's a phase - she's still young and has been in a very dysfunctional environment for four years - an Ivy League school where everybody around her reeks of entitlement and encourages race-based thinking.

My other kids don't seem to have this at all - they love pow-wows and take pride in their Navajo-ness without any anti-white racism.  So maybe this will pass... .

[Deb]

Probably some serious fleas there. Hopefully that's all. But the self centeredness is a red flag. As for the medical insurance. She's Navajo and lives in Arizona? Um, Indian Health Service would probably pick up her medical. If she lives near a rez, any rez, IHS would still pay for on rez services. My husband's rez sure does that. And they have a small community and clinic.

[Matt]

Probably some serious fleas there. Hopefully that's all. But the self centeredness is a red flag. As for the medical insurance. She's Navajo and lives in Arizona? Um, Indian Health Service would probably pick up her medical. If she lives near a rez, any rez, IHS would still pay for on rez services. My husband's rez sure does that. And they have a small community and clinic.

She doesn't live in Arizona - just visiting.  She's been in New York for five years, and is going to graduate school next month in Vancouver BC, so she'll have to figure out how it works - the university there and the Canadian government plan.

There is a clinic here that offers low-cost service to Native residents, and we've used that at times... .