I don't understand the sex life talk

[Moonie75]

I've been through all the on/off the pedestal, recycles after even more recycles, painted black & split back to white, stalked, worshiped/hated/worshiped again etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda!

I'm far from the most experienced, but I've clocked up enough experience to know what they often do & often don't. Lets say I'm not totally wet behind the ears, but still get confused (which I've come to appreciate a little because the day I understand all of it will be the day I start thinking I'm BPD!).

I experienced so much of what I read on these boards about devaluing & how you go from hero to villain back to hero etc etc.

I also experienced all of the devaluing not just me as a person, but the kind loving things i did, the places we went... . basically when devaluing starts it's my experience that ANYTHING is on the menu!

Or maybe not quite everything!

Here's my explanation & question (born out of confusion)

Throughout the whole experience from when we first touched, right the way round the roller coaster track many many times & right upto today, there's ONE THING she's never devalued, and I don't know why!

She's ALWAYS maintained that our sex life was the best she's ever had, she'll never find that again with anyone else, despite her trust issues she trusts me explicitly in bed, she's always told me I've got a bigger than average 'tool'... . Ego boosting stuff I guess & makes you feel good!

The patterns of 'activeness' fit with others experiences, of the disorder, i.e full on, then withholding, then back to full on again. I can see it was used as a control tool as per the model of this affliction.

The list goes on & on about how great our sex life was & was never an issue. I don't really care anymore because I've come to feel so often lied to I see no real value in anything she says. I've never been made to feel like a sex god in any previous relationship, & equally never been put down over sex in any previous relationship. I guess experience of other girlfriends has left me thinking I'm 'ok' in that dept.

So WHY does a person who has no difficulty cutting you down, destroying you with the cruelest of statements & opinions, NEVER put down the sex she experienced with you?

It would be the ultimate 'bulls-eye' shot to the confidence & soul of a man.

SO WHY WHY WHY NEVER GO THERE?

[WXYZ]

You answered your own question.

"I see no real value in anything she says"

What she said or not said is the same thing ... .

Together it her message and you see no value in it !

[Moonie75]

I'm not questioning whether or not it's true!

I'm talking about the boundary she seems to have with devaluing it... .

Whether what she says is true or not, why is it the only thing she won't be negative about?

[laelle]

It could have been the hook that kept her abandonment fears from coming up to the surface.  Sex with your partner is suppose to be "the best ever"

[Inside]

Moonie75,    unreal… I could have written, and have wondered the same!  Mine ‘talks’ a big game regarding her sexual desires, and seems addicted to teasing guys and bragging to women (Histrionic PD as well, she craves attention).  But actually she’s not all that competent in bed, from my view and experience … and it’s nearly funny to hear her brag.  In fact, it’s childlike – which (thinking as I go), since we’re not having sex with ‘children,’ we can’t fully relate to... .   I bet their emotional immaturity is a major factor! 

Mentally, they’re like (in our case) little girls; confused, maybe scared, but intrigued.  It’s said they lack adult maturity …perhaps a mature woman can walk away from sex, assuming she’ll find it in her next relationship.  Does the BPD lack the confidence to think they’ll find it again?  As my on-again off-again uBPDgf loves to ‘talk the talk,’ I’ve made reference to her assumed ‘prior experience.’  She actually gets angry, letting me know she’s ‘only been with a few guys,’ and has their children as proof…  As we’ve also talked about ‘our problems’ (all linked to BPD, for which she always gives me equal billing ), sex has never been a complaint.

…which leads me to an observation ... . I’ve only mentioned to a close friend (who had no idea why) … but in the heat of sex, I’ve seen panic in her eyes.  Eyes wide open, looking into mine - and apparently terrified.  Not always, but something I’ve not forgot.  She’s had nothing to fear from me, and sensing her fear likely caused me to get closer.  Weird, I know they play the victim role (though forget why), but this seemed such an unconscious response in an unrelated act.  …so much to decipher.  But I’m right there with you in your every description (and detail) and look forward to an answer.   

[Moonie75]

Inside, yes yes yes & yes. I'm kind of pleased I'm not on my own, but also sad to know others are suffering the brain-burning confusion this brings.

I'd give my left arm to understand WHY, even in the wildest most evil rage filled dis-regulating moments, that boundary (and only boundary at that point) stands firm in her brain? 

It's the only boundary which stays in place no matter what, and even more miraculously, seemingly without any enforcement!

[Inside]

…thinking further … they’ve a ton of fears and insecurities; sex requires matching emotion and energy, are they really there?  Are they really with us?  Or are they ‘faking’ it …like they fake their way through social settings and life in general... ?  

So, to complain, they’d also be complaining about their own sexual prowess, or – open themselves up to the perceived criticism they’d so fear hearing from us.  They’ve so little self confidence, to even bring up the subject of sex, allowing us to possibly confirm their greatest fears, would be too much of a chance.  So they leave it.

Also, they’re always leading on and teasing guys or bragging to women … what if word got out that they’re not all they claim in the bedroom... ?  I agree they’d likely use some derogatory or demeaning comment regarding sex to cut us down in the heat of a rage …but do they REALLY want to go there... ?  Or, do they so fear our comments and complaints they instinctively avoid that (one) topic?  

…don’t get me wrong, we’ve had fun …and she’s open to much exploration (kinda like a child... ?), but seems always ‘hanging back,’ waiting for me to initiate …possibly with a fear of inadequacy – but with a real ‘Out There’ reputation to uphold.  Hummmm

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Inside,

    Interesting observation, to say the least.  It's been well described by psychiatrists that pwBPD have a higher probability of childhood sexual abuse and that the actual prevalence of this in the BPD polulation is probably much higher than known since this abuse is often so deeply repressed.  The need to have shame involved with the r/s (rarely discussed here as we "nons" are probably too ashamed to admit we were a part of something shameful) certainly suggests that they learned early on that shame and love go hand in hand.  I could totally see someone totally 'channeling' their deepest memories of sexual abuse as children during sex as an adult and giving you a terrible glimpse on their face of what they were feeling when the act happened then.  A bit scary.

LT

[Moonie75]

I don't understand how they can have a boundary remain in place even when they're having dis-regulated rage?

Doesn't that make it a 'regulated rage' due to one little rule on where they CAN'T take the devaluation ?

[Inside]

Lao Tzu, “A bit scary.”  …interesting point, basically a Flashback? 

She has talked openly of her childhood, and that of a life-long friend who was sexually abused.  But my uBPDgf convincingly told me “at least she’d not been abused sexually.”  But factoring in her BPD, and ability to lie …who knows for sure.  But she did/ has let me deep enough into her life that I don’t think she’s suffered sexual abuse …at least not as a child.  There were some crazy adult relationships, including having a gun held to her head …that I’ve not likely heard the half of.  I’ve never considered that trauma … until now…  Well, that may explain her fear of and/ or during intimacy… 

Does anyone else daydream of what a normal partner or lover might be/ was like?  One you don’t have to decipher a code of behavior and fears as deep as our BP’s... ?  Seems I’m attempting to remove the hooks … hopefully enough to move on…  What a trip ~   

[Moonie75]

Equally convinced mine wasn't sexually abused... Her issues come from Daddy running off with Mums best friend when she was just five yrs old. Mummy had a breakdown which terrified her as a child, & Daddy never turned up to collect her for the fun weekends he promised over & over. Perfect pickings for BPD to move in!

[Moonie75]

Do the male BPD's also have the 'brakes' that stop them devaluing the sex lives with relationship partners, even while they devalue everything else in the relationship?

[Inside]

Moonie75:

“I don't understand how they can have a boundary remain in place even when they're having dis-regulated rage?

Doesn't that make it a 'regulated rage' due to one little rule on where they can, and can't take the devaluation ?”

Excellent question and description … for which I can only give further speculation.  I think their behavior is quite ‘regulated,’ always have – I’ve watched ‘the gears churn’ as she’s carefully and cleverly ‘staged a rage’ ... . carefully leading it in the direction she wanted to go.  Pure fabrication.  

But I consider mine ‘high functioning,’ and quite adept at steering an argument in her preferred direction – while sprinkling it with ‘just enough’ outrageous behavior to …convince a parent she needs to be taken seriously   

Lets see … through a child’s eyes, can they control rage?  Not if it’s real – only when it’s fake; and it’s often fake, a performance designed to achieve a desired effect.  As mentioned, I think they purposefully steer clear of sex.  Maybe not in all cases… but at least ‘ours.’  

I gotta pull away and begin my weekend ... . without her ~  I'll check in when I can - good post

[tailspin]

So WHY does a person who has no difficulty cutting you down, destroying you with the cruelest of statements & opinions, NEVER put down the sex she experienced with you?

Moonie,

Who knows what your ex says about you to others; most likely you are being devalued sexually as well.  Just because you don't think something is happening within a disordered mind doesn't mean it isn't.  

I don't think anything is off limits, and you were most likely being objectified sexually, which is why she didn't devalue the experience to you personally.  Telling you how wonderful you were as it relates to her sexual satisfaction doesn't mean there was intimacy involved.  It just means you made her feel good.  

tailspin

[laelle]

Moonie75,    unreal… I could have written, and have wondered the same!  Mine ‘talks’ a big game regarding her sexual desires, and seems addicted to teasing guys and bragging to women (Histrionic PD as well, she craves attention).  But actually she’s not all that competent in bed, from my view and experience … and it’s nearly funny to hear her brag.  In fact, it’s childlike – which (thinking as I go), since we’re not having sex with ‘children,’ we can’t fully relate to... .  I bet their emotional immaturity is a major factor!  

I think there have been several posts here about this.  

As far as devaluing, there were lots of things that he could devalue, but never chose to.  The how and why he did something doesnt really matter anymore, its why I thought being in a relationship with no intimacy was ok for me.  

[jollygreen]

Hey moonie, I had the exact same things said to me in bed with my ex. I think of them as words used for tools to heighten the moment. I also recall her after the heat of the moment asking me if she was the best I ever had among other of her womanly features. I think the words were a two way street purpose as an ego boost for us, along with seeking compliments of the same nature back. One of those 'I want to be seen as perfect' sort of things. I don't doubt that she said the same compliments to previous lovers.

[Learning_curve74]

Why can't it just be something as simple as she's lying to you about it being "the best" to keep you on the hook? Even if you are broken up, it leaves the door open for her to hook up with you for a random fix.

[WXYZ]

Why can't it just be something as simple as she's lying to you about it being "the best" to keep you on the hook? Even if you are broken up, it leaves the door open for her to hook up with you for a random fix.

We come full circle - "I see no real value in anything she says" ... . it's just a hook? Who knows ... .

[musicfan42]

To a borderline, sex=control. I saw through it though. I'm the type of person that likes emotional connection. There were times when I'd feel so totally and utterly emotionally disconnected from him and he'd want sex. I just got the impression that he didn't really care what I had to say-that sex would solve everything in the relationship and that really angered me. I thought "No, you're not going to fob me off here" basically. I actually had arguments with my BPD ex over the sex issue. My gut instinct just told me that there was something very wrong with how he viewed sex, that it wasn't normal or at least what I would consider "normal".

When I say that they think sex=control, I mean that they use sex as a means of getting: validation, attention, easing their abandonment fears (don't leave me, I'll sleep with you if you stay with me), to feel loved (having someone touch them in an affectionate manner can be soothing for them), easing their mood (if they're in a bad mood, then sex will make them feel better), stop feeling empty (I'll feel whole if I have sex, I won't feel so alone in the world), stop you being mad with them (lets have makeup sex). I think that borderlines know there's something fundamentally wrong with them and that sex is the only hook they have... that if it wasn't for sex, no one would be interested in them!

[Moonie75]

There's some confusion in this thread!

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!

The question is about their self imposed boundary that stops them devaluing the relationships sex life, when any other aspect of the relationship is perfectly appropriate to devalue.

[johnnyonthespot]

Moonie75,

Great points... . mine was the exact same.

She INSISTED that I was the greatest lover she ever had... . never deviated from that point, even in the heat of battle.

And she LOVED sex. It wasn't an act (and yes, on that point, I can tell).

Perhaps telling me that I was her best lover ever was really her reminding me that she was my best lover ever? And in so doing, she gave herself more power?

Also, mine was sexually abused as well, and she clearly used sex inappropriately. However, she enjoyed the h*ll out of it... .  

[musicfan42]

There's some confusion in this thread!

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!

The question is about their self imposed boundary that stops them devaluing the relationships sex life, when any other aspect of the relationship is perfectly appropriate to devalue.

Why does it matter to you so much? Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade and say "this person is not good for me"... you don't need to analyse it to the nth degree. I mean this really kindly but I think you're actually torturing yourself even asking "why". Someone told me a while back to keep it simple and it is advice I've really taken on board. So I would say just keep it simple-if someone is devaluing you in many different ways, then it hardly matters that they're throwing you the odd bone by not devaluing your sexual performance.

[Moonie75]

I agree with that advice.

I wasn't torturing myself, I'm able to laugh about it to some extent.

I (and it seems some others) were just musing over boundary that remains when all else fall away.

[flatspin]

To a borderline, sex=control. I saw through it though. I'm the type of person that likes emotional connection. There were times when I'd feel so totally and utterly emotionally disconnected from him and he'd want sex. I just got the impression that he didn't really care what I had to say-that sex would solve everything in the relationship and that really angered me. I thought "No, you're not going to fob me off here" basically. I actually had arguments with my BPD ex over the sex issue. My gut instinct just told me that there was something very wrong with how he viewed sex, that it wasn't normal or at least what I would consider "normal".

When I say that they think sex=control, I mean that they use sex as a means of getting: validation, attention, easing their abandonment fears (don't leave me, I'll sleep with you if you stay with me), to feel loved (having someone touch them in an affectionate manner can be soothing for them), easing their mood (if they're in a bad mood, then sex will make them feel better), stop feeling empty (I'll feel whole if I have sex, I won't feel so alone in the world), stop you being mad with them (lets have makeup sex). I think that borderlines know there's something fundamentally wrong with them and that sex is the only hook they have... that if it wasn't for sex, no one would be interested in them!

I agree ! Sex is a way for them to feel wanted, "loved" and to placate their innermost fears (regardless of whence they come). Sex is a tool, a placebo for self-esteem boost.

However, it's impossible for us to make up for and to manage surreal, unbridled and overwhelming feelings when they have them. How can any sensible and loving man have sex "properly" with a girl who wants a stud in bed whilst grumbling and muttering all along and even crying because she thinks that she's fat and not wanted ?

My ex-wife had everything a man could dream of and when I would tell her about it, she would say that I was a liar. She wanted to strive for perfection whereas she already was smoking hot ! She was always overjoyed when another man was hitting on her, even when we were strolling in a street and that she noticed some men's lasting glances... .

She would accuse her ex-husband of rape, of conspicuously ogling at other girls, of depriving her from her sexual needs because of her supposed plumpness and of overall abusive behaviour towards her but she always said that he was great in bed. I'll never know whether it was true or not and I don't give a rabbit's foot about it !

[Inside]

Musicfan42, you say:

“To a borderline, sex=control.  …I mean that they use sex as a means of getting: validation, attention, easing their abandonment fears (don't leave me, I'll sleep with you if you stay with me), to feel loved (having someone touch them in an affectionate manner can be soothing for them), easing their mood (if they're in a bad mood, then sex will make them feel better), stop feeling empty (I'll feel whole if I have sex, I won't feel so alone in the world), stop you being mad with them (lets have makeup sex). I think that borderlines know there's something fundamentally wrong with them and that sex is the only hook they have ... . that if it wasn't for sex, no one would be interested in them!”

An excellent summation (and copied to my files of “BPD Quotes” – around five 10-page Word documents I’ll occasionally read to remind myself how futile this adventure may be ).  So… sex it too important a tool to toss ... . and they’ll not make snide remarks about one’s sexual prowess due to serious aforethought?  And – they like it! 

That makes sense, and fits with my speculation that most of their tantrums are premeditated.  It’s weird how my (clinging)BPDgf agrees that ‘sex has never been a problem between us’ …and her apparent unwillingness to ‘blame our demise/s’ on it.  Admittedly, it’s likely what I miss most … along with what appears to be my illusional desire for a solid companion and r/s…

[Scout99]

There's some confusion in this thread!

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!

The question is about their self imposed boundary that stops them devaluing the relationships sex life, when any other aspect of the relationship is perfectly appropriate to devalue.

I am actually of the opinion that they most certainly can devalue the sex life too... . Just as they can idealize it... . With my BPD guy one of the things that connected us to begin with was just sex and a mutual openness, if you will and candor about sexual fantasies and I mean, he*k, I am from a scandinavian country, so we are sex addicts all of us, right... . ?  Anyway our sex life is fantastic, when it is... . that is... . Since he will often withdraw from sex either when feeling depressed, fears I will leave him, if we don't see each other often enough or also when we have had a period of really good times with a lot of fun and a lot of sex... . Sometimes I think the withdrawal from sex is due to the fear of getting too close, too intimate, since it has been very intimate and not just wild, but both intense and intimate in a way I think neither of us have experienced that much before... . But sometimes it is also a means to diminish me, especially in times like now when he flips and doesn't want us to have a r/s and starts rambling and ranting about seeing others that live closer to him... . i.e can be at his back and call more easily than I can... .

That is a form of devaluation. Not necessarily the kind where they say the sex is bador I don't feel like it, but more a means to make me feel deprived of it... . And also show a willingness to let go of even that, even though he thinks our sexlife is great... . Self punishment to prevent a feared greater catastrophe... . it is in these times he can say dumb as* stuff like: if sex is going to be a requirement for us seeing each other then I din't want to see you anymore... . I just want to be friends... .

Words that can occur like two days after him talking endlessly about a future trip together as a couple where he stipulates us having sex all the time... .

Anyway those kinds of statements serves to belittle me and make me feel like I am trying to force myself sexually on him and an attempt to create shame in me... . devaluation... .

When the sex part is the only thing they maintain that too is a form of devaluation, since they are all about feelings... . That is to say, well you are only good for one thing, and that is sex... . Or keeping the validation about being a sexgod or sexgodess flowing... . Which in a way is a form of devaluation too of the intimacy part of the sexual act... .

Sorry if I am being to open or blunt... . but I am a scandinavian... .  

[mcc503764]

Lao Tzu, “A bit scary.”  …interesting point, basically a Flashback? 

Does anyone else daydream of what a normal partner or lover might be/ was like? 

Yeah, pretty much all of the time... . I look at my history and I am drawn to "crazy" women for a reason... .

Perhaps the excitement?  I really don't know

MCC

[Lao Tzu]

Hi my Family.

     MCC, yeah, you have to wonder about the 'flashback' thing going on.  No way to know for sure since the repression they need as a shock absorber for these heinous acts  (if they happened at all) must be incredibly powerful.  By the way MCC, while the excitement may draw you, it's probably the unwillingness that they have to acknowledge boundaries that keeps you on the line until the idealization really gets going.  If you think about it, you have 50 relationships that follow a very easily defined course: meet, engage a bit, take some time, engage a bit more, etc. Then, you meet someone who jumps to stage 5 after three minutes and may act like an old married couple the next day.  Not formulaic is, by definition almost, a lot more interesting, if only because you really don't have a clue what is happening next. 

     Of course, now that you 'have knowledge of the ways of the dark side of The Force'  you have a much better idea of what is going on and a much, much better idea of what is going to happen in the future. So, if you're wise, you put your light saber back in your pants    and get out at light speed!  Darth Maul Smiley Face?: 

LT

[confusedhubby]

Just a quick question Moonie: Have you ever thought about whether what your ex says to you about your sex life may not be what she says to others. My diagnosed BPD wife always tells me how much of a wonderful father I am and how great my fatherhood skills are. However to others she says the complete oipposite. I wonder if your ex does the same thing to you regarding your sex life.

[pallavirajsinghani]

It's not in question whether they tell you the truth or not!

They can't tell the truth, we know this!


I have a contradictory impression.  It appears to me that they ALWAYS tell the truth.  Let us here make a distinction between 'Truth" and "Facts".

Facts are fixed, unchanged, verifiable.  Truth is subjective interpretation of those facts.

So it seems to me that the BPD sufferers always tell the truth which is, as they perceive the facts.  As their perception and feelings change, their "Truth" changes too.

For a BPD sufferer, there is no distinction between "Facts" and "Feelings".  So if they are angry, their perception is that you made them angry, and so is their 'Truth".