Men, can you help me out here?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Sorry in advance if this post is a bit long (or crude), but I really can't help myself right now.  I'm really disgusted at the moment. 

A little background: My husband (who may meet former NPD criteria) and I have been married for 10 years. We had, what I thought was an honest, open, trusting relationship, and for the most part I was satisfied. He worked a lot, I joined him when I could, but also did my own thing which gave us each the space that we desired. We still made time for dates, vacations, and whatever else, so I had, as far as the outside world could see, the perfect marriage.

So anyway, fast forward to a few years ago. A new woman got hired to work with DH, and I met her almost immediately at a company party. She was very weird with me, and also weird (bordering on inappropriate) with my husband - the hairs on my arms literally stood on end because I felt so uncomfortable with the situation. I pushed past these feelings and endured the evening, and honestly what helped me never make much of an issue of this was her looks. In my mind, she wasn't even close to the type of woman who could ever be a threat to me. 

Fast forward a few more months, hubby is growing more and more emotionally distant, so I begin to suspect an affair. On several occasions, I outright asked him, but of course he denied it.  He made no effort to be more involved with me, so I continued to feel the same.  A month or so after that, I asked him directly if he was fooling around with that weird woman at work, and of course the answer was no. 

A month after that, he dropped the bomb on me.  Not only was he having an affair with this troll, but everyone knew it but me.  On top of it all, she *accidentally* got pregnant. (I later found out that he was trying to cool things off with her when this "accident" happened).  At that moment I could have just died.  He knew how badly I wanted a baby, so that made the pain palpable... . He seemed sorry, so I decided to stay and see what could be worked out.  In the meantime this woman quickly showed herself to be a pure BPD who goes back and forth between Queen and Waif.  She has made our lives, but especially his, living hell at times.

For the sake of this not turning into a novel, I'm going to fast forward until the present. I had been under the impression that this "relationship" was just a friendship for the sake of the child.  Well, I've come to learn that there's a lot more to it.  After some investigation, I can say that she definitely is using that child as an excuse to see my husband - she doesn't give a d*mn about that kid otherwise. He hates her sometimes, then loves her sometimes, but whatever the case is he ends up doing what it has to do to make her happy, including talking to her 20 times a day, telling her that he loves her 20 times a day, and sleeping with her on occasion.

The problem here is that I'm bored with this; like totally over it.  I have made this plain and clear to him so many times, and he's a man with a lot to lose, so I don't understand why he can't seem to let this woman go.  I have gotten to a point where I told him that a marriage contains two people, not three, and until he can make that happen, I am not participating, so that's where we're at today - barely speaking.

Here's what I don't get, and where maybe the guys here can help me out... . Do these women have platinum vaginas and silver-coated tongues, or what is the deal?  Please help me understand why the pull/addiction (or whatever it is) is so powerful that a man would be willing to lose all that he has just to keep it going?  Not to sound conceited here, but I'm intelligent with a great sense of humor, tall, blonde, and attractive enough that straight women stop me sometimes just to tell me so.  My husband is also very attractive and charming man.  The one who doesn't fit into this equation is this woman who looks like a troll - very short, manly features, no womanly shape, with a face reminds me of a caricature instead of a person. His own friends are calling him an idiot, saying that on their worst, most desperate days, they wouldn't boink her with someone else's c*ck.

Part of me thinks that it would take an unattractive woman like this to put him on the pedestal that he seems to enjoy being on. He even told me recently (with a smile) that she would have a problem getting anyone as "good" as him.    Anyway, I've rambled on enough so if you made it this far, you probably deserve a trophy or something.    Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Saffron2]

Sorry in advance if this post is a bit long (or crude), but I really can't help myself right now.  I'm really disgusted at the moment. 

A little background: My husband (who may meet former NPD criteria) and I have been married for 10 years. We had, what I thought was an honest, open, trusting relationship, and for the most part I was satisfied. He worked a lot, I joined him when I could, but also did my own thing which gave us each the space that we desired. We still made time for dates, vacations, and whatever else, so I had, as far as the outside world could see, the perfect marriage.

So anyway, fast forward to a few years ago. A new woman got hired to work with DH, and I met her almost immediately at a company party. She was very weird with me, and also weird (bordering on inappropriate) with my husband - the hairs on my arms literally stood on end because I felt so uncomfortable with the situation. I pushed past these feelings and endured the evening, and honestly what helped me never make much of an issue of this was her looks. In my mind, she wasn't even close to the type of woman who could ever be a threat to me. 

Fast forward a few more months, hubby is growing more and more emotionally distant, so I begin to suspect an affair. On several occasions, I outright asked him, but of course he denied it.  He made no effort to be more involved with me, so I continued to feel the same.  A month or so after that, I asked him directly if he was fooling around with that weird woman at work, and of course the answer was no. 

A month after that, he dropped the bomb on me.  Not only was he having an affair with this troll, but everyone knew it but me.  On top of it all, she *accidentally* got pregnant. (I later found out that he was trying to cool things off with her when this "accident" happened).  At that moment I could have just died.  He knew how badly I wanted a baby, so that made the pain palpable... . He seemed sorry, so I decided to stay and see what could be worked out.  In the meantime this woman quickly showed herself to be a pure BPD who goes back and forth between Queen and Waif.  She has made our lives, but especially his, living hell at times.

For the sake of this not turning into a novel, I'm going to fast forward until the present. I had been under the impression that this "relationship" was just a friendship for the sake of the child.  Well, I've come to learn that there's a lot more to it.  After some investigation, I can say that she definitely is using that child as an excuse to see my husband - she doesn't give a d*mn about that kid otherwise. He hates her sometimes, then loves her sometimes, but whatever the case is he ends up doing what it has to do to make her happy, including talking to her 20 times a day, telling her that he loves her 20 times a day, and sleeping with her on occasion.

The problem here is that I'm bored with this; like totally over it.  I have made this plain and clear to him so many times, and he's a man with a lot to lose, so I don't understand why he can't seem to let this woman go.  I have gotten to a point where I told him that a marriage contains two people, not three, and until he can make that happen, I am not participating, so that's where we're at today - barely speaking.

Here's what I don't get, and where maybe the guys here can help me out... . Do these women have platinum vaginas and silver-coated tongues, or what is the deal?  Please help me understand why the pull/addiction (or whatever it is) is so powerful that a man would be willing to lose all that he has just to keep it going?  Not to sound conceited here, but I'm intelligent with a great sense of humor, tall, blonde, and attractive enough that straight women stop me sometimes just to tell me so.  My husband is also very attractive and charming man.  The one who doesn't fit into this equation is this woman who looks like a troll - very short, manly features, no womanly shape, with a face reminds me of a caricature instead of a person. His own friends are calling him an idiot, saying that on their worst, most desperate days, they wouldn't boink her with someone else's c*ck.

Part of me thinks that it would take an unattractive woman like this to put him on the pedestal that he seems to enjoy being on. He even told me recently (with a smile) that she would have a problem getting anyone as "good" as him.    Anyway, I've rambled on enough so if you made it this far, you probably deserve a trophy or something.    Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.

[papawapa]

BPD women are like sirens or succubus. They prey on men who are vulnerable, mommy issues, and are master manipulators. While her vagina is not platinum she likely let your husband have her way with her sexually from the start. All the things you don't do, she does. She is using the child as a pawn and wild sex to manipulate your husband.

Your husband needs therapy and it sounds like you do as well. If you were healthy you would not tolerate this and would have walked away long ago.

[Saffron2]

Your husband needs therapy and it sounds like you do as well. If you were healthy you would not tolerate this and would have walked away long ago.

Ya think?   Of course I'm not 100% mentally healthy - is there anyone here who is?  I grew up with a  NPD mother, so this is my "normal."   I've been in therapy off and on for quite a few years, and it was my own therapist who suggested that my husband may have a PD so here I am.  Believe it or not, I didn't see it because he is no where near as bad as my mother was.  He takes care of me in many ways, doesn't hit me, and doesn't rage at me.

He wasn't that bad before, not to me anyway. He wasn't all that emotionally available, wasn't romantic, and I always have had to put forth more effort in our r/s, but these were things that weren't deal breakers for me - not good enough reasons to divide our assets and disrupt the lives of our children anyway. His behavior only became over the top crazy since he met this woman - she has truly brought out the worst in him. And even though I sort of understand on a cognitive level some of the dynamics here, I'm having a hard time totally understanding what the attraction is.

You are right about BPD women preying on vulnerable men - this one did happen to catch my husband at a time where I was dealing with some family stuff so I wasn't there for him as much as I would have liked to have been.  And you may be onto something about the sex, but I'm not 100% sure - out of the two of us, I am the adventurous one with all of the drive.  Over the years I have been the only one interested in spicing things up, while he has had a low sex drive and prefers to keep everything normal and predictable.

As far as the length of time I've been sitting here putting up with it goes, again that can be traced back to my history of abuse - I tend to tolerate more than most before I get fed up and walk away. In addition, I'm loyal to a fault, so I felt the need to give him time to make better choices in his life.  And third of all, the PD stuff just came up about 6 months ago - I don't believe that's enough time to make a solid decision.  Unlike my husband who acts upon his emotions, my decisions are made from a very logical place after careful thought and consideration of all parties involved.

[tryingtohelp]

Hello Saffron , sorry you're being put through this,  but what makes you so sure the other woman is BPD ?  Is she diagnosed BPD?  Otherwise she may not be at all.

Are you able to talk to your husband at the moment?  Why not sit down with him at some point and simply ask him what is is about this woman that he finds so attractive , if he feels relaxed enough with you he should be able to tell you honestly. It's not always simply about looks, I know some women can be a turn on without being physically attractive as they know how to do certain things that does it for some men.

I hope you can resolve this one way or another, but look after yourself in the meantime. I know I'm guilty of neglecting this myself !

[Lao Tzu]

Dear Saffron,

     It isn't the mechanics of the sex in any sense.  As you have seen, it also isn't the physical features of the partner. I will also say that for a very long time I felt strongly that the only time in my long life I had ever felt anything I could remotely describe as mystical was when having sex with her.

     What is it?  I'm afraid to say this, as I might lose credibility with you (if unknown people on the internet have credibility anyway ), but after years of thinking about this very question I finally understood it after spending soem time on this site.  Don't puke, but the truth is that we 'nons', basically, touch God in this love, especially as it relates to the sexual connection as the expression of this love.  How's that for a tough act to follow? Yes, I mean God with the capital "G" and no, I'm not (completely) insane.

     The deal is, and I can direct you to a number of places on this site where this is discussed better than I can, the relationship between your husband and the troll is a substitute for a very early relationship that a child should have with their parents, especially their mom.  If this doesn't happen correctly a person is left with a massive need to find this and may spend their entire life working (subconsciously) like crazy to gain approval from others as a substitute.  Then the pwBPD comes along and completely recreates this relationship and gives them what they need more desperately than they, literally, have ever needed anything in their whole life. I can get into the neurobiochemistry around this, but my point here is that the pwBPD becomes something extremely close to the mother in one's infancy.  And, what is a mother in one's infancy if not, essentially, God?

     Yes, it's completely nuts but this is how our psycho-sexual development takes place and also how it may be twisted into something very unhealthy.

     It has absolutely nothing to do with anything else about the troll. All the things that make up a real relationship are completely irrelevent. These people are 'Mom to an infant', or, as I've said, God.  There, I said it.  It's OK if you think this is insane, but if you do some reading on this you'll discover that it's the facts of this aspect of life that are a bit insane sounding (and, well, probably me too a little).  It's the truth and I hope it helps.

LT 

     

[waverider]

He needs validation as he probably has a low sense of self, she has the ability to make him feel good and worthy. Looks have nothing to do with it. He's known her long enough to get past that.

Dont know if she is BPD or not, but if she is then she will have these skills as part of her nature. She will also be validating herself by winning over you. If you are obviously more attractive then the bigger the victory

[Saffron2]

Hello Saffron , sorry you're being put through this,  but what makes you so sure the other woman is BPD ?  Is she diagnosed BPD?  Otherwise she may not be at all

When this whole thing came out in the open, it seemed that my husband was trying desperately to fix this because not only was she driving him nuts, but he didn't want to lose me. In those days he would open up about some of the experiences with her that would freak him out, and other than that I did my own research by eavesdropping and reading his texts.    Here's some examples of why I think she's BPD (not all from the official criteria list) - if anyone thinks otherwise, feel free to chime in here.

1. Chaotic relationships - She can't keep a man or friends, plus her own family is so tired of her behavior that most of them have either LC or NC.

2. Mood swings - OMG, I've never seen anything like this.  This woman can literally go from smiling to raging at the drop of a dime!  The next morning she would call and act like nothing ever happened.

3. Chameleon - She'll morph into whoever she's around. When my husband, in his vulnerable state at the time opened up to her, telling her what he felt that he was missing in his life, she became that for him.

4. Suicide threats - Whenever my husband has tried to back off from her, telling her that he'll support her, but only as a friend, she'd threaten to kill herself.  If he's not spending enough time with her, she may start with indirect threats like, "I have nothing to live for."  If there's anything in between where she's not getting what she wants from him, she'll lay around in bed for days crying, not eating, drinking, or taking care of her many children.

5. Did I mention raging?  The raging is over the top, and definitely in response to minor infractions.  For example, if my husband forgets to tell her that he loves her at the end of any interaction (even if he's already said it 20 times that day), he'll get reamed a new a$$. He can literally make a little joke that she ends up taking the wrong way, and she'll go off for that too.

6. Rigidity - Everything has to go exactly as planned all the time.  Life absolutely cannot get in the way, or that means that something is more important than she is, then there's h*ll to pay.

7. Abandonment issues - Anytime she gets the sense that my husband is pulling away, she goes into a frenzy, working overtime to suck him back in. 

8. Lives in a fantasy world - I don't know if this has anything to do with it or not, but this woman operates under some if-I-can't-see-it-it's-not-real type of thing.  Example:  She forced my husband to remove his wedding ring - If she can't see it, then he's not really married. She requested that I stop coming to his job - If I'm not seen there, I can't be real. When he eventually dug his heels in and put his wedding ring back on, she solved the problem by getting a matching ring for herself so she could pretend to be his wife. 

9. She's impulsive as they come - Spending like she's Donald Trump when in reality she's broke, driving like a jacka$$ when she's angry ect.

There's probably more, but I can't think of it at the moment.  Does any of this sound familiar so far? 

[Moonie75]

I experienced most if that list with my ex. The only exceptions were the rigidity & the suicide caper. But then my ex is extremely high functioning & has held down her job for 15 years. Although she's not too well thought of there & I've heard has a reputation for being 'high maintenance'. Pi$$ myself laughing, if they only knew what walks amongst them every day!

[Saffron2]

He needs validation as he probably has a low sense of self, she has the ability to make him feel good and worthy. Looks have nothing to do with it. He's known her long enough to get past that.

Dont know if she is BPD or not, but if she is then she will have these skills as part of her nature. She will also be validating herself by winning over you. If you are obviously more attractive then the bigger the victory

Waverider, I do believe you nailed it!  This makes perfect sense to me.

Your last couple of sentences strike an additional chord with me because it feels like this is what's going on here. This woman is obsessed with me to a point where I've become very uncomfortable, even to a point where I increased the security at my home. Sometimes I think I'm overreacting, but then there are other times where I'm not so sure... . especially after re-watching Single White Female!

After she met me, she altered her appearance, changing her gaudy makeup into more of the natural, neutral colors that I use. I have a very classic look, and tend to dress conservatively (dresses, slacks, heels ect), while she initially was the sweatshirt, jeans, and sneaker type - she bought herself a new wardrobe after meeting me.   Till date, she obsessively asks questions about me, constantly wanting to know what I'm thinking, doing, how I'm feeling, what my plans are - everything that shouldn't matter to her. Oh, how can I forget, she's even been trying to speak like me, trading in her normal language for bigger words.  Great, except for the fact that she doesn't always use them correctly!

Lao Tzu, Believe it or not, the mommy stuff sort of makes sense to me (although I must confess that the thought is repulsive!  )  I was, and still am, the care-taking type, and in many ways did remind him of his mother.  Even physically, I somewhat resemble his mother.  I've gotten healthier over the years, so even though I am still loving and care-taking, I've toned it down a bit, and am in more of a place where I'm looking for reciprocation... . This woman is this to an extreme that I never was. Anything he wants, she'll do it, even if she has to push her own kids to the side, take off work - whatever it takes, she'll get it done. H*ll, if he wanted her to take off of work and drive all the way to his job just to wipe his a$$, she'd do it.  

Gosh, the more I'm reading my own writing I'm realizing that I probably never stood a chance. What guy would want to give all of this up for his boring (I'm actually quite boring by comparison ) wife?  Maybe he is exactly where he needs to be, while I'm just holding onto something that should have been let go of a long time ago.  Perhaps I just need to heal so I can move on and eventually find an equally boring guy.  

[Saffron2]

I experienced most if that list with my ex. The only exceptions were the rigidity & the suicide caper. But then my ex is extremely high functioning & has held down her job for 15 years. Although she's not too well thought of there & I've heard has a reputation for being 'high maintenance'. Pi$$ myself laughing, if they only knew what walks amongst them every day!

This woman has somehow managed to hold onto her job for a long time - that's the only thing that threw me off a little here.  That's the only stable thing in her life.

You poor guy! How did you deal with this? May I ask what the attraction was?  Is it that the good times are so good that it makes you forget about some of the bad?

My mother had a PD, and I always wondered how she ever kept a man. In actuality, she kind of didn't.  She had many men, but the only r/s that lasted for any period of time was one where the guy dealt with it by not being at home.  He got a second job just so he had a reason to stay gone half the night.

[Moonie75]

We are not supposed to share our partners. Sometimes if you're unlucky you are sharing a partner & don't know, the reason we're still there is we don't know we're sharing our 'other half'. When we find out most people leave immediately, never to return. Some do return in order to work things through but not until the '3rd party' is gone. So the dynamics are back to TWO people in a relationship trying to get through the mess recent events have produced. It's quite common afterwards (but not set in stone) that the originally aggrieved partner has been damaged too much & the feelings just aren't the same, so they leave the relationship.

There is no room in a relationship repair FOR ANY REASON for the third party to still be there!

If the reasons for her to remain in place carry more weight than the reasons for her to go, you really do need to take a deep breath & think about how much you value your self worth & dignity.

Saffron I genuinely don't mean to belittle your situation or your decisions made so far, but do you realize how utterly indignant what your tolerating is? A situation like this take it's toll to the point of feeling like you've totally devalued yourself by remaining & tolerating it. It could even make you ill.

Would you even consider watching a friend do this to themselves?



   

[123Phoebe]

Hi Saffron (I'm not a man, sorry),

I'm curious as to how you know so much info about this other woman, her obsession with you and so forth?  Is it strictly through eavesdropping and reading texts?

Perhaps I just need to heal so I can move on and eventually find an equally boring guy.  

Are you looking for support with your healing journey?

[Moonie75]

I experienced most if that list with my ex. The only exceptions were the rigidity & the suicide caper. But then my ex is extremely high functioning & has held down her job for 15 years. Although she's not too well thought of there & I've heard has a reputation for being 'high maintenance'. Pi$$ myself laughing, if they only knew what walks amongst them every day!

This woman has somehow managed to hold onto her job for a long time - that's the only thing that threw me off a little here.  That's the only stable thing in her life.

You poor guy! How did you deal with this? May I ask what the attraction was?  Is it that the good times are so good that it makes you forget about some of the bad?

My mother had a PD, and I always wondered how she ever kept a man. In actuality, she kind of didn't.  She had many men, but the only r/s that lasted for any period of time was one where the guy dealt with it by not being at home.  He got a second job just so he had a reason to stay gone half the night.

The attraction's all explained in the leaving board in the yesterdays thread about how did you meet your ex. Some meeting's in there you may be interested in!

I stayed for a few years which included trying to work through being triangulated with some rich guy (which went on last summer). there was never 3 in the relationship but we were on/off and when we were off they were on. She basically bounced from me to him three times before he walked & I remained. So I've experienced a mild degree of what you're putting up with.

It did much deep damage to me, deeper than I knew at the time because I was so distracted by what was going on & constantly feeling like I was in a tug o war & the rope needed ALL of my attention.

Finally we broke up a few weeks ago after I became convinced she was lining someone else up & have since become more convinced she's now bedding whoever it is.

Indignant comes to mind again. My dignity is bent, battered, & shriveled... . But I won't let the situation kill the last bit I have, so I've removed myself & my damaged dignity from the situation & will now repair it in a healthy manner.

God bless ya I don't know how you can take it X

[Saffron2]

Hi Saffron (I'm not a man, sorry),

I'm curious as to how you know so much info about this other woman, her obsession with you and so forth?  Is it strictly through eavesdropping and reading texts?

Doesn't really matter.  

I know so much because of all of the above, plus my husband used to be WAY more open with me, telling me things and showing me things to back up what he said. Back when this was newer, he would at times come to me scared, not knowing how to deal with whatever crazy situation he found himself in. I guess he's used to it know because these things don't come up too often anymore.  In addition, I have in the past had in depth conversations with her husband who painted a similar picture to what I already knew. After all of this, I could see for myself the changes in makeup and clothing - she posts enough pictures of herself online.

Why am I here?  I guess just trying to make sense out of things.  My head is spinning, and I feel very confused at the moment.  I guess when I can actually wrap my brain around all of this, I will focus on figuring out what to do with myself.

[Saffron2]

There is no room in a relationship repair FOR ANY REASON for the third party to still be there!

If the reasons for her to remain in place carry more weight than the reasons for her to go, you really do need to take a deep breath & think about how much you value your self worth & dignity.

Saffron I genuinely don't mean to belittle your situation or your decisions made so far, but do you realize how utterly indignant what your tolerating is? A situation like this take it's toll to the point of feeling like you've totally devalued yourself by remaining & tolerating it. It could even make you ill.

Would you even consider watching a friend do this to themselves?

I agree with what you're saying.  And you are right, this has affected me physically, emotionally, and every other way.  I'm in a very deep depression and haven't been able to think straight in quite some time. 

The thing is that I'm not here 100% because I'm a glutton for abuse.  I'm kind of trapped in a sense.  My husband is the breadwinner, while I am a housewife at the moment. I have no money or major assets of my own. He has made it plain and clear that if I try to leave him with the kids, he will make my life worse than the pits of hell.  And yes, he has more than enough means to do it. 

It's complicated. *sigh*

[Moonie75]

He's brought another woman into your marriage & the gratitude you get for staying & trying, is the promise of making your life worse than the pits of hell if you leave?

FFS Saffron he sounds as TOXIC as her!

What ya doin girl?

[Saffron2]

He's brought another woman into your marriage & the gratitude you get for staying & trying, is the promise of making your life worse than the pits of hell if you leave?

FFS Saffron he sounds as TOXIC as her!

What ya doin girl?

He has issues, for sure, probably PD'd or at least traits of according to my therapist.  According to my husband, I should not be worried about what he's doing.  I shouldn't look, ask, or otherwise try to find out, then I wouldn't feel the pain. According to him, I am causing my own misery.

I know that all of the above sounds insane, but there are times where I do slide back into old habits, questioning my own self and my own perception of things.  Sometimes I wonder why I can't be like other politicians wives and just look the other way. One step forward, two steps back.

[Moonie75]

You can have all the best support networks in place, family, friends, and forums like this. You can have all the professional paid help in the world, but THE ONLY person who can stop the nonsense, or leave it behind you, is YOU!

If he's threatening to punish you if you leave, and then demeaning your feelings & views while you stay... . He is as toxic to your mental well being as her! Worse possibly because she has no elegance to you & has never made marriage vows to you. HE HAS & treats you with less respect than her.

They are equally toxic for you (my opinion is he's worse because your HIS wife not HERS).

These people are both toxins in your life & have a connection. Neither of them displays any loyalty or respect for you. They are two toxic people maintaining a toxic situation & show no signs of stopping. And even if they did, would you still want to be with a man who threatened you if you left & equally disrespected you for staying?

WAKE UP & STOP MAKING BULL$HIT EXCUSES FOR THE WAY HE'S TREATED YOU! She's this & that & such a bhit, but he's only 'got issues'.

It sound like you're already so devalued you, you can't see the woods for the trees!

Only you can stop this damaging you further than you already acknowledge. Everybody can help, but nobody can do it for you. X

[waverider]

Read this workshop and see if it rings any bells

PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

[Scout99]

Hi Saffron!

I feel so sorry for the purgatorial h*ll you have gotten yourself into and I can totally relate to all the confusion and depression that comes with it, since like Moonie75 puts it, this is a totally unnatural and indignant situation that nobody ever should have to face... .

I also understand that circumstances create at least seemingly unmountable hindrances to see possibilities to make changes and leave the r/s, even though when push comes to shove there usually always is a way, once we find in ourselves the will... .

I am not a man, either... . But I have been in a long term r/s with a man with NPD and currently actually struggle with a sort of r/s with a man with BPD, so I am at least quite familiar with the different traits of these two disorders and how the effect of two people with these two traits can interact with each other... . And maybe sharing a bit of that can be of help?

Like Waverider writes, mutual validation is a major factor here, and looks and such stuff have almost nothing to do with it. The theories about sleeping with God might be one way to put it, but there are also other factors that come into play... .

And then there is of course also the fact that you have been brought up in a dysfunctional environment too that makes your ideas of what constitutes a good and healthy r/s is also in one way understandably distorted... . And together it becomes a sort of unhealthy ménage a trois that will break you down if you continue to let it... .

Now, lets say for arguments sake this woman is indeed BPD... . From what you write, there is at least a strong possibility she is then she may very well seem like a predator. But in truth that is not what she is... . Her disorder does however make her express feelings in an overwhelming way, since people with BPD are like a camera being taking constantly overexposed pictures, that is they don't have a normal shutter on their camera, so it lets in and puts out way too much light, as a metaphor for feelings in this example... . And feeling too much all the time and at the same time harboring a constant feeling of emptiness inside makes pw BPD extremely needy, but also unpredictable... . Now if you are a person with NPD you are in need of constant validation for your self made self, since ow NPD mostly have buried their true self a long time ago. (A typical difference in NPD and BPD is that a pw BPD have a low or unexisting sense of self, whereas a ow NPD has a buried self and instead have created a "false" but in their mind more perfect self that in their mind is needed for them to be able to get what they feel they need from other people. The clinical term for this is narcissistic supply, or NS, which make them objectify people). Now both of them are addicted to idealization and as we all know, idealization can hardly ever be maintained since the more we learn about each other in any r/s we start to see not just the perfect things in each other but also the flaws, hence the idealization fades with time... .

In a meeting between a person with BPD and a person with NPD it can sometimes happen though that the unpredictability of the borderline person, who because of their unstable sense of self constantly changes their mind and their emotions run high in different directions all the time, that can trigger and maintain the NPD person in their "favorite" mode if you will... . that is the hunting mode, where the need to "win" or conquer their pray is one of the most powerful sources of NS for a ow NPD. And that effect can manage to keep the r/s in the idealization face for a lot longer periods of time and can also kick it back into gear when the mundane every day life starts knocking on the door. It is a highly unhealthy relationship, but a union between two people both highly dysfunctional, so normal is perhaps not the norm in a case like that anyway... .

For your NPD hubby this unholy threesome also constitutes an endless source of NS for him, since at the other end he also has you, when times are rough or boring with this other woman. And he can therefor gain NS and validation also from you. So from his perspective he probably doesn't want this scene to change at all! Which also may be the reasons for his threats towards you, should you start thinking about leaving the relationship you have with him... .

In a way, the fact that you are in the picture too, may very well be the very reason the r/ s with the other woman works in the first place, since it makes it possible for him to move back an fourth between the two of you to avoid for him any unpleasant feelings or lack of validation, that might occur if he couldn't come to you for support when The other woman acts out or doesn't validate him enough... .

It is truly a complicated situation... . And the worst part of it is that you always end up with the shortest straw in all of this, since there really aren't any benefits in it for you, apart from perhaps financial stability... . And YOU deserve more than that! Way more!

Now, I didn't quite get it, but I understand that there are kids involved here too... . I get that your husband now has a kid with the new woman, but do the two of you also have other children together from before all this happened?

What I think you should do at this point, where you seem to feel stuck and above all suffer from quite understandable depression and a lot of confusion is to start focusing, just like you do by reaching out to us here for instance, on you. And you should really try to get some help for yourself. Perhaps go back into therapy and/or seek out a support group to at least be able to build some strength and perspective to be able to begin to be able to explore and find that there always are possibilities even though from the place where you are standing all enmeshed in all this will have a hard time seeing... .

Maybe also seek out some legal advice to at least gain some information about what would happen if you decide to leave, so your sole source for information won't just be your husband who in a way keep you hostage in this marriage... .

There are ways to get out of this mess! Believe me, there is. And even if it will make things tough for you to begin with when it comes to economy, those obstacles are still way easier to overcome than a whole life living in this mess. Because, even if some parts of this may still spell normal to you because of how you have been brought up and because of the factor of getting sort of used to the situation you are in - it still is not either normal or healthy for you to stay in this for the long haul... .

There may not be a magic wand that will in a flash set things straight, but there sure are ways and things you can do. But first you need to give yourself time to gather up some strength and build up you... .

So continue to use this board and all of us here for support and information... . I dare say that there is not a soul here who doesn't want to help and be there for you... .

My heart goes out to you and I do feel and understand how hard and awful this place you are in right now feels, but there is a way out of this situation too! If nothing else, hang on to that thought.

Scout99

[Moonie75]

Scout99,

What's the 'sleeping with god' theory?

The part of BPD & NPD getting along quite well that I don't understand is... . I thought they both have a splitting & hater phase? How does devaluing a BPD make them want the NPD & how does a NPD feel supplied by the BPD devaluation of them?

I don't get it.

[waverider]

Often two disordered people can exist in chaos together, as neither of them know any different. They normalize each others behavior.

Much in the way us nons in a BPD relationship here understand each other but those who have never lived with a pwBPD simply dont get why we do it or understand us.

[Scout99]

Scout99,

What's the 'sleeping with god' theory?

The part of BPD & NPD getting along quite well that I don't understand is... . I thought they both have a splitting & hater phase? How does devaluing a BPD make them want the NPD & how does a NPD feel supplied by the BPD devaluation of them?

I don't get it.

The sleeping with God theory is not mine but came from another post by Lao Tzu in this thread, I just paraphrased it... .

About r/s between a NPD and a BPD a union between two people with disorders will of course never be a healthy one from a normal perspective. And yes, they both can fall into both splitting and display a lot of rage and hate, especially the NPD party... . But since they are needy in different ways, (the NPD for NS that can consist of both positive sources like adoration but also from negative sources like feeling insecure about getting the object of their desire or not, just to name a few and the BPD from being idealized and validated), that is one factor that can make a r/s between two such people in a toxic way sustained... .

There is also the factor of them both wanting and craving the idealization face. And in the case of the NPD one way of maintaining the idealization comes through the hunting... . A pw NPD feel empowered when they have to struggle for control and win over and conquer the object they desire for NS. And the unpredictability of the borderline person, who can flip from one mood or will to another in seconds keep the NPD person on their toes, or in the hunting mode for longer, than a "normal" person does... . There is nothing a pw NPD dreads more than the mundanity of everyday life and a secure relationship because once the prey is secured idealization starts to fade. Since then the level of NS decreases, and that makes them devalue their partner. And the devaluation in turn makes them need to find other or more sources of NS.

When a pw NPD start to stray or cheat on their partner it is usually because the level of NS they can extract from their partner is too low to satisfy their need, and many pw NPD stay in their marriages or r/s really to just make sure they have a perhaps low but still steady flow of NS while they find their main sources for NS in other things or other people, this since it is impossible to maintain the idealization face with a normal partner, that will eventually start seeing and noticing their flaws... .

So to answer your question about how a NPD can find source of NS in being alternatingly idealized and devalued by a BPD partner, the answer is that as long as the NPD finds the BPD person a desirable source for NS, he will keep hunting or fighting to win her adoration, she keeps him on his toes if you will, and that is appealing to a person with a Narcissistic mind... .

As long as he keeps thinking he can win her, it feeds his ego.

The borderline gets tons of validation from being fought for so much and is also mostly so preoccupied in their own feelings that they won't be as bothered with the NPDs lack of empathy and so on like a normal person is. The borderline is too impaired when it comes to that... .

It becomes in a way a "follie a deux", they can create a r/s formed in madness but since they both bring it to the table it can work in a toxic and dysfunctional way... .

To give an example... . When a normal person is in a r/s with a NPD person and the initial idealization and mirroring starts to fade. And the r/s starts to get into a from a normal perspective a more stable face where the normal person will start noticing also the flaws in the NPD and may start to question the NPDs motives and lack of empathy and expresses a wish for things to change or start asking for more friendship and deeper intimacy, which a pw NPD dreads, the result of that for the NPD is that it will lower the amount of NS coming out of the object/partner for the NPD. And they then start to devalue the source and will start looking for additional or new sources of NS elsewhere.

When a BPD person is in a r/s with a NPD the situation may be different, since first of all the normal everyday stability where the initial infatuation diminishes and deeper intimacy is called for is something they both dread. The BPD for fear of abandonment and the NPD because they at the core of their being hates true feelings of intimacy, they both have a mutual interest in not going there. And that is one factor that can keep the r/s in the idealization face longer. Another factor is that the constant change in the BPD's mood keeps the NPD fighting for them as long as the pw BPD is considered a desired source for NS. And that too helps in maintaining the idealization. None of them have either a beef with empathy which means that none of them asks for that in the other, and that too, however dysfunctional becomes a helpful factor... .

The BPD in turn gets fed through the constant courtship that the NPD gets forced into keeping up, since the r/s between them never gets to a secure place due to the BPDs mood swings and constant change of mind. It is a crazy dance, but one that can go on longer than such a dance usually can when there is a normal person in the mix... .

The key is however for this to occur is that the BPD has to be to the NPD a very desirable object for NS... . And the BPD needs to keep the NPD on their toes or at least just a bit insecure about having her... . As long as that is kept up, there will be no devaluation from either of them... .

This is however mostly a theory but one that has been brought to the table by writer Sam Vaknin who himself is a pw NPD who writes books on what it is like to live with NPD... .

Feel free to ask if there is more you wonder about concerning this. I may not have all the answers but I will sure make an effort to try to clarify what I mean.

Best wishes

Scout99

[Moonie75]

Do they both have to be purebred NPD & BPD? I've read that NPD can share a little BPD traits, but more so the BPD can be very heavily loaded with NPD traits & the latter is quite common.

Does this theory fit to those dynamics too?

My ex had a steady 8 year marriage to her husband & both have said there was no devaluation till the usual sort of griping even normal people get down to in the throws of divorce. She had just one rage, in the early days which he successfully nipped in the bud & it wasn't repeated. I wonder if this 8 years passed with reasonable success due to him possibly having a disorder as well?

Fascinated.

[Scout99]

Do they both have to be purebred NPD & BPD? I've read that NPD can share a little BPD traits, but more so the BPD can be very heavily loaded with NPD traits & the latter is quite common.

Does this theory fit to those dynamics too?

Now I am no expert here... . But my understanding of the diagnostical system of the DSM for disorders are not really about fitting people neatly into a specific category, but instead be a tool to determine what kinds of problems or traits that are most disordered in order to find the best help or treatment... . So the way I understand it there are very many combinations between traits from different disorders and possibly also other mental health problems that can be part of each specific persons record, and it can also change over time... . So yes, a person with Borderline may also have narcissistic traits, but if the primary diagnose is Borderline then they are not also NPD but BPD with specific narcissistic traits and vice versa... . However people with NPD seldom come to psychiatric help or therapy very often, so one knows less about double diagnoses when it comes to them, from what I have read... .

From my own experience with one man showing very clear cut signs of NPD and one man with BPD I have come to the conclusion that the two of them are very different in certain aspect and that goes for the eventual precence of narcissism too in the borderline... . Imo my BPD guy sure is selfish at times, extremely so, and that could of course be said to be a narcissistic trait, right! But the selfishness comes from a completely different motif... . He has no desire to be a perfect and better person than anybody else and does not have show off a (false), but still enormous self confidence before others like my ex NPD guy, but instead mostly seems tense or a bit nervous and is afraid that people will see how insecure and inadequate he really feels... . An NPD person does not feel like that about himslef at all... . So when my borderline guy acts selfishly the motif is usually trying to hide his fears or trying to prevent something that he perceives to be a potential catastrophe, i.e fear of being hurt... . Whereas my NPD guy acted selfishly since he just simply couldn't care less about anybody what so ever as long as it served his purposes and there was someone else that could be blamed for it in case he would be exposed... .

My borderline guy can show signs of true remorse and can reflect aferwards about things that he has done to people, and the fear itself shows that it is not completely ego oriented... .

From my persepctive I think there are a lot of differences between NPD and BPD, but there is also a lot of difference between different people with BPD. Some show more traits of narcissism and some less... . But a certain amount of selfishness can be found in most borderlines. But not necessarily with a narcissistic motif. Just like most nons can show selfish signs as well... .

Now do they have to be "purebred" as you put it in order for what I wrote in my theory to be possible? Not really I think... . I do however think that the traits that involve idealization and need for NS and an excitement about the hunt has to be present in the person with narcissistic traits, just as the need to be validated and enjoyment of the overwhelming attention has to be present in the borderline. As well as a lack of need for showing but also receiving loads of empathy present in both of them. And a fear of too much intimacy present in both but for different reasons... .

My ex had a steady 8 year marriage to her husband & both have said there was no devaluation till the usual sort of griping even normal people get down to in the throws of divorce. She had just one rage, in the early days which he successfully nipped in the bud & it wasn't repeated. I wonder if this 8 years passed with reasonable success due to him possibly having a disorder as well?

Fascinated.

It is difficult for me of course to say that with any certainty... . But it could sure perhaps be a factor, if indeed both of them had any form of disorder, or specifically NPD and BPD then... . However I think it is possible to create a functioning dynamic between a borderline and a non too if the non is not in anyway him- or herself impared with co-dependency issues or low self worth/self esteem or in any other way carry traits from childhoos that has taught them weird things about what constitutes a healthy r/s... . A stable balanced person who is not so easily swayed here and there but can operate from a calm and assertive mode most of the time, can probably also create a sort of calmness aura around him or her that settles some of the worst fears in the borderline... . And in time also perhaps creates possibility for model-learning or re-learning or re-creating better and more healthy schemas in the person with BPD, that then in some cases perhaps could get better with either permanent results or as long as they remain in that environment and no bigger traumas occur... .

But the latter is really just my personal theory... .

Scout99

[Clearmind]

All Borderlines are narcissistic however may not be diagnosed NPD. Let's steer this to more fact based stuff. The Mayo Clinic always put out good clinic material - and steer this thread back to the topic 

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

Narcissistic personality disorder is one of several types of personality disorders. Personality disorders are conditions in which people have traits that cause them to feel and behave in socially distressing ways, limiting their ability to function in relationships and in other areas of their life, such as work or school.

Narcissistic personality disorder treatment is centered around psychotherapy.

Source: Mayo Clinic (More information here…... )

Is it BPD or narcissism (NPD)?

Diagnosis: What are the new DSM-5.0 criteria for BPD?

______

Dear Saffron!

How you are going my friend?

[Saffron2]

How you are going my friend?

I have a headache!    Not in a bad way, just in a information overload kind of way if you know what I mean? 

What I've been reading here from Scout made so much sense that I had to read it like 3 more times then let it sit for a while - it's a lot to take in.  Then there is so much information here in general, like the link that you just provided.  By the way, after reading that twice I am almost 100% sure that my husband really is a narcissist, and probably not the sub-clinical one either... . That part is still sinking in; I probably have yet to fully accept that I am really dealing with a narcissist who is not capable of ever giving me what I need. He is only ever going to act on what makes him happy without regard for my feelings. 

With that being said, I am going to have to sit with this for a while longer to figure out what to do and how to do it.  In an attempt to educate myself, I did some reading on coping with a narcissist - basically reduce your expectations to nothing and do exactly what they want - this doesn't sound too appealing, but may have to do until I can come up with something better.

Does the information here apply to NPDs? Is there a point to setting boundaries when they are viewed by the narcissist as nothing more than obstacles to overcome?

My head is spinning with so many questions. :/

[Clearmind]

I completely understand you having a headache…take in the information slowly – there is no need to bombard yourself right now – you are a newbie so go gently with yourself.

Borderlines tend to be entitled Saffron – I guess the point being that labels are irrelevant – it’s the behaviours we need to be mindful of. So for now, you have just landed – read a little, take breaks from your threads, do some research of your own and in time you will be willing and able to absorb some of the lessons here to help make your situation better.

coping with a narcissist - basically reduce your expectations to nothing and do exactly what they want - this doesn't sound too appealing, but may have to do until I can come up with something better.

No, my friend, you do not do nothing you need to learn healthy boundaries and learn to understand what your limits are and how that feels to know when a limit is being reached. It’s a combination of head and gut.

Please don’t concern yourself about NPD at this stage….boundaries are to protect you not change his behaviour – so yes – being a relationship who is mentally ill does take some tolerance and it also takes a certain level of acceptance and being able to detach with love.

Chill out and take care of you. No good will come from rushing through anything. Change takes time. Decisions about your relationship takes time.

hit

Steering away from labels and definitions - let me ask you - what is the main issue concerning you right now about your relationship? - be mindful that you don't need to give copious amounts of detail (because I have been there... ) - just a snipet  

[Octoberfest]

To address your initial question of what power these BPD women have over some men... .

WHAT A QUESTION 

I will refrain for answering for ALL men, but I wholeheartedly agree with the person who said that they are succubus' and sirens.

For me,

I suffer from low self esteem/self worth.  I had never ever dated before or truly had a girl show me interest, and when she did I was on it hook line and sinker.  When you have never had someone love you before, you will do WHATEVER to keep it once you have it. 

I am not suggesting that your husband had not felt love or anything of the sort, I am simply suggesting that, almost certainly, the reason for your husband being "drawn" to this woman is because of issues within HIMSELF.  She is merely good at exploiting those issues.

[Saffron2]

When a normal person is in a r/s with a NPD person and the initial idealization and mirroring starts to fade. And the r/s starts to get into a from a normal perspective a more stable face where the normal person will start noticing also the flaws in the NPD and may start to question the NPDs motives and lack of empathy and expresses a wish for things to change or start asking for more friendship and deeper intimacy

This is exactly what happened. For the first couple of years of our marriage, things were wonderful - I was treated very well.  After that, there was kind of a switch where we I felt like he was taking me for granted; our connection was somehow lost. Guessing that this was some sort of phase, I didn't worry too much, but tried to make sure we spent a little more time together so that we could reconnect. He was almost always too busy, which I accepted at first because he did work a lot, but this became more of an issue for me as I began to notice that he would put me on the back burner for anyone or anything.  I probably put more pressure on him after that, talking to him very directly about what was going on, how I felt, and reminding him that a marriage required work from both parties; it couldn't just be put on auto-pilot. He agreed with me, but never did anything about it.

Now that the blinders are off, I can say that our marriage has been a cruel joke consisting of a couple of wonderful years followed by *me* working overtime to recapture what I thought was there in the beginning.  Instead of working with me, he escaped through work and by having affairs (probably more than I ever would want to know). The payoff for my efforts:  Him standing in my face several years ago, telling me that he was in love with another woman and that she was pregnant.

what is the main issue concerning you right now about your relationship?

The fact that he has no empathy.  The fact that I can break down into a pool of tears, and I'll be met with a blank stare. The fact that I'm technically married, but so damn alone.

When I break it down further, this has more to do with me than with him.  Why did I not see this before?  When I did start seeing some of his dysfunctional behavior and thinking (long before this PD stuff came up), why didn't I draw a line in the sand back then? Better question:  What am I going to do about it now?

As far as I can see, there are only 2 options: A. Quietly make a plan, save money and go, being prepared all the while for a long-lasting, ugly fight.  He will do whatever he can to make my life hell (probably being as financially abusive as he possibly can be), plus will try to manipulate the kids (we have 3), turning them against me, so we will almost definitely be dealing with a case of PAS.  Option B. Sit here, but quietly go on with my life. I can get myself out of this depression, work on disconnecting a little more, then work on reconnecting with old friends, making some new ones, and spending some more time traveling. Perhaps I'll host the first annual PD Escape Cruise.