Trauma on both sides of the story.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi,

I think it's better to post here about this than in any other part of the forum.

Looking back on my past relationship, my own issues that I already talked about, and having learned about BPD, I think there's one thing we must understand as well.  Not that I feel guilty about what I'm going to say, I didn't know what I was dealing with, and it was not healthy.

But we all get traumatised by the relationship and how it worked out.  If we dig in ourselves, we may understand why we did it.

Someone with BPD has not that possibility I think.  Ok we did get a trauma, but actually we traumatise the BPD as well I think.  For very different reasons, abandonement issues, external influences, fears, etc.  So what I'm saying actually is the following :

My ex had very abusive relationships in the past, verbally, but also physically and sexually.  This must add to her own trauma, probably even a lot, most of it by men.  I've read similar stories meanwhile.  My ex has been involved in a relationship with a woman before me, and I get the feeling that she had suffered so much that she tried it with a woman, a story that became also very traumatic for her, she was dumped from one moment on the other, had another short relationship when doubting her sexuality, she didn't feel good in it and ended it, which resulted in a suicide attempt from that woman.  More trauma... . More shame, more guilt... .

As women didn't seem to be the problem solver she was looking for so she turned to me.  I learned of her story bit by bit... .   I was very validating, understanding, worked on her self esteem and confidence with her (and on my own by loosing weight etc looking back).  With the situations happening with the recycling of her husband, over and over again, things changed and with the lies, cheating, word breaking, not taking decisions, I became frustrated and angry at the end.  No more validation but invalidation.

At the end I hated her for being such a bad person, believing own lies, etc... .   I had recognised the black and white pattern by that moment, and made certain I was black when I blew up the relationship.  She turned to a woman again.  Another BPD, and it became hell. Same period BPD was confirmed.

Durning our last talks about BPD, earlier ths year, without any result at the end, it was clear that she didn't know anymore who she was sexually.  She even admits it.  Although she had been to a lesbian café with her new love at the time, and ran out of the place when she was there for 3/4 of an hour, an hour max.  She felt sick of what she saw... .   It was nothing for her she said.  Clearly she has lost also that part of her identity and doesn't understand herself probably. 

So here's my point, with every new relationship they add to the trauma, (we do actually in a way) doubt even more about who they are, even possibly concerning sexual identity, and get deeper and deeper into the BPD.  Do I have that correct ?

Reg

[Reg]

Hi,

I think it's better to post here about this than in any other part of the forum.

Looking back on my past relationship, my own issues that I already talked about, and having learned about BPD, I think there's one thing we must understand as well.  Not that I feel guilty about what I'm going to say, I didn't know what I was dealing with, and it was not healthy.

But we all get traumatised by the relationship and how it worked out.  If we dig in ourselves, we may understand why we did it.

Someone with BPD has not that possibility I think.  Ok we did get a trauma, but actually we traumatise the BPD as well I think.  For very different reasons, abandonement issues, external influences, fears, etc.  So what I'm saying actually is the following :

My ex had very abusive relationships in the past, verbally, but also physically and sexually.  This must add to her own trauma, probably even a lot, most of it by men.  I've read similar stories meanwhile.  My ex has been involved in a relationship with a woman before me, and I get the feeling that she had suffered so much that she tried it with a woman, a story that became also very traumatic for her, she was dumped from one moment on the other, had another short relationship when doubting her sexuality, she didn't feel good in it and ended it, which resulted in a suicide attempt from that woman.  More trauma... . More shame, more guilt... .

As women didn't seem to be the problem solver she was looking for so she turned to me.  I learned of her story bit by bit... .   I was very validating, understanding, worked on her self esteem and confidence with her (and on my own by loosing weight etc looking back).  With the situations happening with the recycling of her husband, over and over again, things changed and with the lies, cheating, word breaking, not taking decisions, I became frustrated and angry at the end.  No more validation but invalidation.

At the end I hated her for being such a bad person, believing own lies, etc... .   I had recognised the black and white pattern by that moment, and made certain I was black when I blew up the relationship.  She turned to a woman again.  Another BPD, and it became hell. Same period BPD was confirmed.

Durning our last talks about BPD, earlier ths year, without any result at the end, it was clear that she didn't know anymore who she was sexually.  She even admits it.  Although she had been to a lesbian café with her new love at the time, and ran out of the place when she was there for 3/4 of an hour, an hour max.  She felt sick of what she saw... .   It was nothing for her she said.  Clearly she has lost also that part of her identity and doesn't understand herself probably. 

So here's my point, with every new relationship they add to the trauma, (we do actually in a way) doubt even more about who they are, even possibly concerning sexual identity, and get deeper and deeper into the BPD.  Do I have that correct ?

Reg

[VeryFree]

I think you are correct.

They will go down deeper and deeper. Quite sad actually, but it can lead to 'healing'.

A T once told me, that pwBPD don't aks for mental help, they really don't want to. But when they hit rock-bottom (that means big depression) there is a chance they will accept help and make progress.

Unfortunately, when thing get a bit better and depression is been put down, they most probably will stop seeing a T.

And then it starts again... .

Sad, very sad, but let's look at ourselves: why bother? Why do you want to know? Why keeping busy with your past?

[Reg]

Actually it's just something I have been thinking about this morning, due to something that was said to me on that matter by someone who has been in a relationship with a BPD as well, yesterday.  She actually is reading my book on my past relationship for the moment.

I don't actually bother    But I think understanding BPD is also partially understanding ourselves.

[Scout99]

Reg wrote:

Durning our last talks about BPD, earlier ths year, without any result at the end, it was clear that she didn't know anymore who she was sexually.  She even admits it.  Although she had been to a lesbian café with her new love at the time, and ran out of the place when she was there for 3/4 of an hour, an hour max.  She felt sick of what she saw... .  It was nothing for her she said.  Clearly she has lost also that part of her identity and doesn't understand herself probably.  

So here's my point, with every new relationship they add to the trauma, (we do actually in a way) doubt even more about who they are, even possibly concerning sexual identity, and get deeper and deeper into the BPD.  :)o I have that correct ?

To a degree experiencing over and over again how relationships come and go, and that they in truth do get abandoned over and over again, does of course if not add, then at least set, confirm and re-confirm their distorted core beliefs and schemas about themselves as being people that nobody can love and people who always end up abandoned and so on... .

But it is not so, that us doing all the right things would have helped them to grow and evolve out of those core beliefs... . Usually they are such a strong influence on who they are and what they do, they themselves will add to and work their way into self-fullfilment of

those prophecy's about themselves and their life that they already have from the beginning. In short, they will themselves help make the anticipated bad happen if it doesn't happen by itself... .

About her sexuality it is not so, I believe, that she now also have lost her sexual identity. It has not been there to begin with. And that is the core problem in having a poor sense of self. That is, she has probably all her life been struggling with the void of not having a clear self, and that involves sexuality too. Having said that, venturing into exploring same sex r/s can very well be a result of disappointments and or abuse from r/s's with men. But they however horrible they have been to her, have not made her loose her sexual identity, a lack of that has been there from the beginning. They have however probably not been of very much help to her in her her quest for building one up... .  

At least that is how I see it... .


VeryScared wrote:

A T once told me, that pwBPD don't aks for mental help, they really don't want to. But when they hit rock-bottom (that means big depression) there is a chance they will accept help and make progress.

I think there is a lot of confusion among T's too in this area, and many even shun working with pwBPD, (especially T's trained in the psychodynamic field as opposed to the cbt,dbt and schema oriented T's), since transference is such a major thing in psychoanalysis. Also many BPD's as we know are somewhat difficult people, not being crazy on one end and at the same time acting really crazy at times and constantly changing... .

And a lot of statements like the one you refer to here, I think derives from that.

Another aspect of this is the fact that many times the diagnosis of Borderline is not the only problem the person have. BPD seldom travels alone, but in good company with other problems from the different Axis in the DSM formula and that makes generalizations like this a bit problematic, I think.

It is true that acceptance and a willingness to receive help and motivation to work is key to success in therapy, but that really goes for everybody entering therapy for whatever reason, so that is not by itself a borderline trait... . In my experience not in the least from reading posts here, many truly want help but have a hard time finding help that works and T's that have experience and knowledge in this field.

A third aspect on this, touching on the often multiple diagnoses or problem spectra, is how present or not present eventual narcissism is in the picture. The more narcissistic traits the harder it is to accept truth about oneself and be open for treatment.

My conclusion is, there is not just one type of BPD person. There is a multitude and more than a 150 different known combinations of borderline diagnoses just from a clinical perspective, so making generalizations' based on that alone is difficult... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[Reg]

Scout99,

Just to add to the confusion, been reading this post : https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206965.0

That is really scary, but confirming what you said I think.

Talking about all the different kind of BPD's you mentioned, and combinations with other possible problems, it made me realise that the BPD's my ex partner is hanging around with, are all struggling with their sexual identity. Men, women, men again, women again,... .   Coincidence or not, curious thing... .

The person who talked to me on the matter of trauma's, lets call her just E. is a lesbian, who was in a relationship with a BPD who always preferred women, never had any men.  The relation lasted for 14 years. Talking just about differences... .   One year later she is still healing.

About the T's, you re very right, when my ex came to me to talk about the BPD some months ago, I looked for a list of T's who are dealing with BPD in my country, and there aren't a lot of them !  And if you looked at the list again, it was curious to see that a number of them were doing everything possible on psychology, and that actually only a few where specialised in PD's.  Of course, I never needed the list for her... .  

Thanks !

Reg

[Oldsoldier2411]

Reg wrote:

Durning our last talks about BPD, earlier ths year, without any result at the end, it was clear that she didn't know anymore who she was sexually.  She even admits it.  Although she had been to a lesbian café with her new love at the time, and ran out of the place when she was there for 3/4 of an hour, an hour max.  She felt sick of what she saw... .  It was nothing for her she said.  Clearly she has lost also that part of her identity and doesn't understand herself probably.  

So here's my point, with every new relationship they add to the trauma, (we do actually in a way) doubt even more about who they are, even possibly concerning sexual identity, and get deeper and deeper into the BPD.  :)o I have that correct ?

To a degree experiencing over and over again how relationships come and go, and that they in truth do get abandoned over and over again, does of course if not add, then at least set, confirm and re-confirm their distorted core beliefs and schemas about themselves as being people that nobody can love and people who always end up abandoned and so on... .

But it is not so, that us doing all the right things would have helped them to grow and evolve out of those core beliefs... . Usually they are such a strong influence on who they are and what they do, they themselves will add to and work their way into self-fullfilment of

those prophecy's about themselves and their life that they already have from the beginning. In short, they will themselves help make the anticipated bad happen if it doesn't happen by itself... .

About her sexuality it is not so, I believe, that she now also have lost her sexual identity. It has not been there to begin with. And that is the core problem in having a poor sense of self. That is, she has probably all her life been struggling with the void of not having a clear self, and that involves sexuality too. Having said that, venturing into exploring same sex r/s can very well be a result of disappointments and or abuse from r/s's with men. But they however horrible they have been to her, have not made her loose her sexual identity, a lack of that has been there from the beginning. They have however probably not been of very much help to her in her her quest for building one up... .  

At least that is how I see it... .


VeryScared wrote:

A T once told me, that pwBPD don't aks for mental help, they really don't want to. But when they hit rock-bottom (that means big depression) there is a chance they will accept help and make progress.

I think there is a lot of confusion among T's too in this area, and many even shun working with pwBPD, (especially T's trained in the psychodynamic field as opposed to the cbt,dbt and schema oriented T's), since transference is such a major thing in psychoanalysis. Also many BPD's as we know are somewhat difficult people, not being crazy on one end and at the same time acting really crazy at times and constantly changing... .

And a lot of statements like the one you refer to here, I think derives from that.

Another aspect of this is the fact that many times the diagnosis of Borderline is not the only problem the person have. BPD seldom travels alone, but in good company with other problems from the different Axis in the DSM formula and that makes generalizations like this a bit problematic, I think.

It is true that acceptance and a willingness to receive help and motivation to work is key to success in therapy, but that really goes for everybody entering therapy for whatever reason, so that is not by itself a borderline trait... . In my experience not in the least from reading posts here, many truly want help but have a hard time finding help that works and T's that have experience and knowledge in this field.

A third aspect on this, touching on the often multiple diagnoses or problem spectra, is how present or not present eventual narcissism is in the picture. The more narcissistic traits the harder it is to accept truth about oneself and be open for treatment.

My conclusion is, there is not just one type of BPD person. There is a multitude and more than a 150 different known combinations of borderline diagnoses just from a clinical perspective, so making generalizations' based on that alone is difficult... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

I have talked with scout a few times and can follow the reasoning. Trauma can come in many guises, whether it is the loss of a child (which I can relate to) or the verbal abuse from a partner, to name just 2 types. Quite often we cope with the trauma's in different ways. Some by experience some by trial and error and some with the support of our famiies. As a parent we all can feel traumatize by mental health issues when it comes to our loved ones. The problems can manifest into a serious problem if it is held back. We can have residue problems without knowing them but others may notice. Talking to someone that you feel comfortable talking to about your feelings is good. Borderlines have a problem talking to the right people and may not cope too well. I have read on my travels that this condition isa disorder and is about their feelings. This is something we cannot sense because it is their feelings not ours. Some loved ones that are called "nons" find it frustraiting and have to step away for their own mental health. Does that make us weaker? No! It can be the rational thing to do at times.

Ian

[Scout99]

Scout99,

Just to add to the confusion, been reading this post : https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=206965.0

That is really scary, but confirming what you said I think.

Just to avoid confusion, I am not in any way suggesting that same sex relationships or struggling with sexual orientation normally have anything to do with BPD!

However if a person having BPD finds themselves as adults struggling with their sexual orientation, for whatever reason, the lacking sense of self will add to that struggle. It is not always then even perhaps a matter of uncertainty about sexual orientation but just confusion overall about who they really are, from one time to the next... .

Scout99

[Scout99]

I have read on my travels that this condition isa disorder and is about their feelings. This is something we cannot sense because it is their feelings not ours. Some loved ones that are called "nons" find it frustraiting and have to step away for their own mental health. Does that make us weaker? No! It can be the rational thing to do at times.

Ian

Word! 

scout99

[Oldsoldier2411]

I have read on my travels that this condition isa disorder and is about their feelings. This is something we cannot sense because it is their feelings not ours. Some loved ones that are called "nons" find it frustraiting and have to step away for their own mental health. Does that make us weaker? No! It can be the rational thing to do at times.

Ian

Word! 

scout99

? Is there something I missed scout?

Ian

[Scout99]

I have read on my travels that this condition isa disorder and is about their feelings. This is something we cannot sense because it is their feelings not ours. Some loved ones that are called "nons" find it frustraiting and have to step away for their own mental health. Does that make us weaker? No! It can be the rational thing to do at times.

Ian

Word!  

scout99

? Is there something I missed scout?

Ian

No Ian! I think you are dead right here! When all things considered, and no matter how much we understand and so on, it is very important that we don't allow that to diminish ourselves! And when things start to get crazy and we have a hard time remaining in good health ourselves, it is vital that we also understand that then the most rational thing to do is to step away!

In most of the discussions like these, many of us are in different stages in our own recoveries. Also our travels towards true freedom and or detachment takes different turns, we don't all embark on the same train so to speak... . we process things differently. But in the beginning understanding all kinds of different aspects of the how's and the why's is an important part for some of us to even get to a place from which we can accept and then embark on the journey towards detachment. (Or finding peace also within the realm of the r/s if staying is what we choose). But then once understanding starts to kick in it is also vital to do exactly what you wrote here so well, and that is to keep true to our own rational mind and sense and get out, if either for an hour or for ever.

You just wrote it so much shorter and simpler! And I wanted to salute you for that!

Best Wishes always

Scout99