Male Borderlines and rage

[Dibdob59]

Hi

I would welcome input from anyone who has experience of male Borderlines and rage, ie what you experienced and how it was dealt with.

A lot of the posts here talk about rage with their daughters but not so much with their sons.

I have what I now believe to be a husband and an adult son with UBPD.  Both exhibit rages but in a different way. Each are deeply upsetting to witness.

In the posts I have read on female raging I do not get the impression that family members felt particularly threatened by this.

Is this the same for anyone who has experienced male BPD rage?

If so is this simply due to the physical difference in size between men and women or are male/femal rages different in any particular way.

Any responses would be helpful

Thanks

D

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[pessim-optimist]

Hi Dibdob59,

That sounds really scary... .    

I do not really have too much experience with male borderline rage, so I can't give you specific information... . But I know that in general borderlines can and do get violent, just like some non-BPs. I hope someone with first-hand experience can give you more info.

I would think that it depends on the individual. However, when things get emotionally out of control, it is hard to think rationally and people (healthy of BPD) can do things they normally would not. So, if you feel threatened at any point, don't take it lightly, think of your safety first... .

In general, with pwBPD the rule is if they get emotionally to 5 or more (1 being calm - 10 being completely emotionally our of control); they cannot control their emotions and it does not any good to try to reason with them. My personal opinion would be to try to stay on the safe side and to end a conversation when I see it approach 5 (i.e. hang up the phone, or leave the room/house in a peaceful way, letting the pwBPD know you will be back (so it does not trigger fears of abandonment in them)... .

I hope that others will post more about their experiences to give you a better idea.

Feel free to ask more questions, this is definitely an important topic... .

[qcarolr]

I can only speak to the rages of my BPDDD27. She has been raging since a very young age - most likely more than just the BPD criteria for her at that early age. As a teen and adult, she has indeed been very threatening to others that are not giving her what she believes she needs or is entitled to from them. When she uses any kind of stimulant, whether prescribed for her ADHD or a street drug, her level of hostility and physical threats increase very quickly beyond the '5' level. And I agree that logic and reasoning are pointless after that point. Physical distance is needed for both our safety.

I have been very afraid of her - and this seems to increase her anger. It has taken learning and then finding the courage to implement self-protective strategies to allow my connection with her to exist. It has taken be many years for me to find this courage, and the need to also protect my gd8 as a motivation.  DD refuses to accept low contact or no contact when I need emotional distance for my own recovery. So other limits have to be put in place.

What does this look like. If DD calls and is yelling, blaming, cursing, name-calling I will say "I am not going to be yelled at and am hanging up for X hours. You can call back after that". If it is a text, I choose not to respond at all. I do not answer the phone at night. If she is in my face - has me cornered or is following me harassing and threatening me, I leave the house and walk to a neighbors or get into my car. If she blocks my car so I cannot leave, I honk the horn until she steps away. I wait until my dh gets home to return to the house. I will meet gd at the school bus and take her to the library or out for ice cream, etc. If in my car, I pull off the road, ask her to leave - she always refuses to leave in any of these situations (extreme 'I hate you don't leave me' response!) so I get out of car. I have called police often, or gotten security from a local business to as her to leave my car. Or I take a walk and tell her to be gone when I get back or the police will be called -- she leaves just before I return.

I have seen this get better as I consistently enforce these limits with her. And she calms down, and asks to reconnect, even when she is not able to be in our home. I will meet her for lunch, or take her to the grocery store, etc. She has no where to live so ends up with her homeless 'clan'.

I know there are others here where the no contact comes from their child toward them. My DD needs me in many ways due to her other issues (ie. non-verbal learning disability)--I am the one seeking the distance. As I have learned to stand up to her, consistently find safety for myself and my family, am able to tell her I will not be bullied anymore and walk away there have been changes for the better in her actions. She is trying very very hard to be in our home and part of our family. She seems able to leave the house before she explodes and stays away a few days even.

My situation has felt hopeless at times, yet there is always hope. The key is for me to find ways to take care of myself and others in family, build outside support network as part of my safety and sanity plan, and work to be consistent with DD so she knows exactly what to expect in response to her actions.

I think trying to generalize about BPD over-simplifies what is needed to be in a relationship with a pwBPD. There are 9 criteria and they can show up in various configurations at different times. It also depends on what other issues an individual has - other mental health or personality issues are present. And self-medication with drugs/alcohol makes a big difference too.

IMHO, when the internal pain is too much to hold my DD can either internalize this and become suicidal or SI or she can externalize her pain by projecting it onto the next closest r/s she has available. This is usually me, or a recently ex bf. Her pattern is to externalize and shift blame to others. This really limits her ability to access treatment -- or persist when she has those rare occasions to accept some responsibility for her feelings and actions.

For me, I can no longer carry her pain for her. She struggles to take it back from me -- I just keep handing it off to her in seeking safety and recovery for myself.

qcr  

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Dibdob59

I have a dBPD partner. He has raged a lot, and it can be a scary thing to be around. Not only is he completely without pity in those moments, he also hurls insults and on one occasion was physically violent and threatened with more violence against me. On a few occasions he has threatened to destroy "everything in the room".

I think you're on to something saying that witnessing a man in rage can be more scary than a woman in rage since the man is usually physically dominant in the situation. But I'm sure a woman in a complete rage can be scary, too.

The most important thing to learn is how to protect yourself from abuse (physical or emotional), like exiting the situation early. The Staying:improving a relationship with with a borderline partner has some great lessons on communication and tools like boundaries and time-outs. My situation is a lot better than it was.

You say that your husband and son display rages in different ways.

How are they different?

Are they being physical?

Do you feel scared when they rage?

 

[Kate4queen]

From about the age of 16 my son would rage and throw things and scream abuse at us. It was terrifying for his younger siblings to witness. The worst thing about it was he would not stop, it didn't matter what you did, said he would come after you. We used to call him the Toxic Terminator because he would pursue you relentlessly, arguing or screaming his point, stand outside a locked or closed door and keep it up for as long as it took for him to exhaust his rage. Sometimes, if you escaped with his younger sibling,  he'd still be there waiting for you when you got back and it would all start again.

Even though my son has a mild disability, he was still taller than me, and stronger and when he'd get in a rage, his eyes would get this wide black eyed stare which was, quite frankly terrifying, because you knew at that point that he'd gone and that all that you were facing was the horror of his BPD condition.

He'd prefer to use words to hurt but when I wouldn't listen or would try and walk away saying the conversation would only continue when he calmed down, he'd smash my favorite things, threaten to harm himself or me with a kitchen knife or literally scream and cry and rock and... . ugh and there was nothing you could do but take what was precious, my other kids and get out and just hope he didn't destroy your home in his rage.

So yeah.I get it.

Dealing with it? We had to let him walk away from us-his choice- and we only have contact by email now. He's 22.

[hoping4hope]

Have a stepson... .   age 23, just met him a couple of years ago.  Didn't take long after my marriage to his father to see a rage or two, but mostly he'd snipe and criticize and attempt to put me in my place on a daily basis.

One rage included him standing nose to nose with him screaming in my face.  crazy look etc.

I think he was close to hitting me.

I looked him straight back in the eye and said.  "Back off young man, I am not scared of you."

Well, something about that clicked with him and he backed off.

He later left the house a few months, over something his aunt said to him.  It wasn't me this time.

He dramatically disappeared the next day... . without telling us.

So, now there is limited contact.

His anger was so misplaced over ridiculous things, really ridiculous, that I just didn't get scared of him, although he is a strong and physical person.  I kept thinking this is just a stupid argument based on nothing.

Maybe showing no fear that night worked, but he has never physically confronted me again.

[Dibdob59]

Hi everyone

Thanks once again for all replies.

Pessim-O

Their rage is not necessarily violent in that I dont feel threatened each time, although it is extremely unpleasant to witness both for myself and for their distress.  You are correct in that it is complete lack of emotional control at that point in time.

Qcaroir

I have never yet been raged at via the phone, text or email.  The only rages I have experienced from my husband or son are in person.  My husband's rages are always directed at me/others but my son's rages are mainly directed at himself.

Scarlet-P

My H's rages have been violent in the past and I learnt to stay out of the way and found that when I tried to stop him I got hurt. I have not done that in years for obvious reasons.

The difference between my H's rages and my son's rages are as follows:

H rages when he cannot get his own way, when he is jealous of others, when challenged for poor behaviour (disappearing off with other women - obviously denied), when he is feeling paranoid etc. Substances do not appear to make any difference to him and he rages whether he has been drinking alcohol or not (he is not a big drinker).  He has been physical with me in the past although this has lessened with time and it is objects now that get the brunt of his fury ie laptops, furniture or anything else in his way.  He is totally irrational when raging, talks complete nonsense and refers to things that have never happened (although he will not hear this of course).  My feelings towards my H have changed over recent years and I now feel quite detached from him in general.  This has not always been the case and in the early years of our marriage I was absolutely devastated by his behaviour, I would say it almost destroyed me.  I am really looking to leave him now as I have very little feeling left for him but things are complicated (aren't they always with a BPD).

My son is a completely different matter.  He only rages when he is drunk.  He exhibits other BPD traits when sober but is not unpleasant.  He does not often drink but when he does he drinks to excess and loses all control. He then rages and hates himself. sobs about the past and how his father hates him and has f***ed his life.  His language (normally fine) becomes foul and it as if all the pain he carries inside erupts from him due to the loss of self control from being drunk.  It is like verbal pus being released from a wound. He punches walls, doors, cars and self harms.  He hates himself, says he is a sick s**t and that he should die.  He says he loves his children but they would be better off if he were dead, all this type of negative self hatred.  He has never threatened either me or his sister but has physically fought with his father when like this (although it is fair to say my husband inflames the situation when my son has been drinking and this then escalates into something worse).

My husband has never blamed himself for anything, has never harmed himself or threatened to harm himself.  My H's fury is directed at anyone and everyone else.  My son's fury is directed at himself. 


Kate4Queen

I have read a number of your posts before and PM'd you once and of all the posts I have read I relate to yours the most.  I hope your moving away has lessened your immediate anguish.  You deserve some peace in your life.  To date I have never received the kind of emails you have, although I have had the occasional text message when my son is venting his anger against other people, just never at me so far.  I relate to the word 'Ugh' in your post.  It is how I feel most of the time, life with our sons whom we love so much should never be this way.  I find it almost impossible to look at the photos of my son when he was younger, so happy, such a lovely boy.  I have to believe he still is that way underneath, he has just lost himself along the way.

Hoping4hope

I have had the nose to nose screaming and threats from my H in the past.  When I was younger I would scream back as I did not understand what I was dealing with.  I just felt anger that he could treat me so badly and behave in the way he did.  However I changed my responses to him because it further damaged the children and my squaring up to him provoked such rage that it was not safe.  In my other posts I have outlined the ways in which doctors and police have failed repeatedly to provide any support our family in the past.

Do I blame my husband for my son's issues - yes.  Is that fair - who can say.  It is how I feel after 35 years of his BPD threats and fury destroying our family.

Do I feel scared?  I do not really feel scared of my son but have often been scared of my husband.

I feel scared for my son but not for my husband.  Is that fair - again who can say.

I am scared for what other people will think if they see my son act in this way - is that shallow of me, to feel shame and embarrassment?  I know he will be judged by society and the law in a way that a female losing control would not be judged.  He will be seen as violent, aggressive, nasty.  A female in a similar situation is generally seen as hysterical rather than violent and is not stigmatised in the same way.

I have only become aware of BPD in the last few weeks.  It has been an eye opener and a shock.  I feel as though I am in mourning at present, that empty sick feeling of grief when someone you love deeply has died.  I have to be honest and say this feeling is for my son and not my husband. 

My grief is for the future I had so eloquently written in my mind for my son and is children and which will now never happen for him. 

Life is so cruel.  I feel such endless guilt.

D

[FaithfulHope]

Dear Dibdob59,   I have a dd but I totally can relate to rages and to the grief you are feeling.     I am usually the target of her rages in the family as I am the one in contact with her the most.   She definitely rages at lots of people within her 'group' of other dysfunctional associates.    She has never been physically abusive to me but verbally/emotionally.  I have learned to not react to it as it is pointless.   

As for grief, oh yes, I can totally relate.   All of us here can.   Once you learn about BPD, and discover that was what is causing all this chaos, you soon learn the sad truth about what that diagnosis means.   The relationship you want and planned with your beloved child might never come to be.   However from reading this site, it seems that some can recover.   However, it seems to me that recovery has to come from a commitment to change from the pwBPD.   They have to retrain their brains through DBT.   I was lucky in that my dd was just shy of 18 when diagnosed and we got her into DBT therapy, but sadly she wouldn't apply it or work at it.   That was over 3 yrs ago and to this day she still chooses to live in chaos.   But... . we still hope.   With each new day as long as she is breathing, she might choose a new way of life.  Until then I just continue to love her and accept her for the person she is.   Not always easy!  But this group REALLY helps me!

 

[Kate4queen]

Dibdob59

I can't look at pictures of my son when he was little either. He talks about his childhood as though it was a nightmare and I just don't remember it that way.  

I'm sorry if I didn't respond to your PM, moving across the Pacific this year and what with all the hassle of my sons I haven't been as conscientious at replying to email as I should.

[six]

my NPDS26 starting raging when he was around 17.  he used to shake and tremble while he screamed at us.  bec he was my oldest child I thought maybe this was what everyone was talking about how difficult teenagers are.  at the worst point, he was threatening the lives of my other children and I was afraid to let him come home.  I soon realized that other teens are not like this. 

thankfully the rages have mostly petered out, I think largely because of my changes in behavior.  I have learned what triggers him and when I see him getting disregulated, either me or my DH can often step in and calm things before the rage begins.  his sisters have also learned what to do to appease him when he looks like he is going into a rage.  i also believe that he could return to that behavior in a minute.

[Dibdob59]

Kate4queen

There is no need to apologise, our lives are chaotic and exhausting from dealing with the complications our BPDs bring.

I forget so many things and feel so confused on a daily basis now that I think I am developing dementia (I am actually quite serious about this). 

D

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Dibdob59]

Hi Six

It is really strange you should say this about their behaviour.  My son has only ever raged when he is extremely drunk and the first time I saw him like this was aged 18 (legal age for drinking in UK).

I was shocked and horrified but thought it must be a reaction to the alcohol.  Now of course I know that the lack of control brought on by drinking so much alcohol allowed the BPD rage to surface.

Like you I wondered if this was what teenage behaviour was like.  Although I have a daughter who is older than my son, she has always been a home body, not a party girl and is not a drinker.

My son has never threatened anyone else's life, just threatens self-harm and rages at himself with self-loathing.  His rages have increased recently following his partner's affair and the loss of his home and family.  He has taken to drinking and drowning his sorrows with some old school friends and that is a recipe for disaster.

His relationship with his father and the fact that my husband is BPD himself means I cannot rely on my H to help, in fact he inflames things.

I am so worried for my son but must accept that I have limited influence.

D

[Dibdob59]

FaithfulHope

I think I would find it easier not to react to my son's rages if he were not threatening himself so much and if he was not so drunk. The sight of a 6ft tall, 29 year old man sobbing like a baby and saying such hateful things (mainly about himself) is so distressing.

The fact that he has two young children (aged 4 and 7) is just a further cause for fear.  I cannot bear to think of history repeating itself with either of them developing BPD traits in years to come. That would be too, too cruel.

D

[Kate4queen]

my NPDS26 starting raging when he was around 17.  he used to shake and tremble while he screamed at us.  bec he was my oldest child I thought maybe this was what everyone was talking about how difficult teenagers are.  at the worst point, he was threatening the lives of my other children and I was afraid to let him come home.  I soon realized that other teens are not like this. 

thankfully the rages have mostly petered out, I think largely because of my changes in behavior.  I have learned what triggers him and when I see him getting disregulated, either me or my DH can often step in and calm things before the rage begins.  his sisters have also learned what to do to appease him when he looks like he is going into a rage.  i also believe that he could return to that behavior in a minute.

Mine would literally shake with rage too and his pupils would dilate so it was like looking into a black hole of rage. It's amazing what you put up with when you don't realize the root cause of the problem. Unfortunately, nothing could calm my son down which was even more terrifying. He'd wait until everyone else was either crying or raging and then leaving us all bloodied on the ground, he'd walk off having made us feel worse than him and forget all about it until the next time, no apology no nothing.

[FaithfulHope]

Oh DibDob59 I can't imagine how hard that must be to witness.   No matter how old they are, they are our babies and we are programmed to want to help them... . to fix the boo boo's so to speak.   It is so very hard to be powerless.   I also fear for the next generation as well.   Had I known that my own mother was uBPD and that there is a definite genetic link, I am quite sure I would have adopted instead of having biological children.   My upbringing was very tough but I always thought I must be some kind of bad daughter to not want to be around my mother.   That was before I learned that the way she acted was not normal and quite possibly BPD.   I have talked to both of my sons about the possibility that their offspring could also carry these traits.  I have told them both that when they meet their future wives that they need to talk about this and make educated decisions.   Like you, I also have concerns about my dd and alcohol.   She is getting more and more involved with it and it just makes matters worse.  I try to talk to her about it to no avail.   I pray daily that she will one day decide she is ready to work at getting better.   I pray for you and your son also.