Did they WANT to be treated badly?

[Moonie75]

I sit here & read & read about how much love attention & care we tried to give them. And they ran, or pushed us to run!

Do they want to be treated badly? I can't quite get my head round somebody wanting that but then i don't see the world or myself like they do. I've read about their compatibility with NPD's. It's got me almost convinced that they almost want to be treated badly?

It's almost like the 'treat em mean keep em keen' saying was written for them?

I've never been able to treat people I love & care about with anything less than my total love & support. So this kind of treatment of people just isn't for me. But the more I read of it the more I'm sure that's what they want.

[Eric1]

Mine said that i make it too easy for her. Then when i did try and instal boundries or say No, she would rage.

Can't win.

[Reg]

Moonie,

They don't, they make a lot of bad decisions in their choices in relationships, such as other BPD's, NPD's, just the same as we actually did with this kind of relationship.

They want to be happy, but the fears/anxieties, concerning abandonment and other issues are to big for them, causing the trauma that triggered things at the time, to repeat itself over and over by their own doing.  They think they are not worthy of people in many cases, self esteem, identity and selfrespect are sometimes extremely low.  

It is not what they want in life, but they cause it themselves to get so much trauma.  We call them drama queens or kings or whatever of that kind,  and they look unknowingly for the drama themselves.

Reg

[Moonie75]

I know they don't consciously want it. I meant is it a sub conscious thing?

Like they don't even realize it themselves but their need for drama keep them hooked into drama filled relationships, or trauma filled relationships. I found being treated so badly very traumatic & didn't want it coz it doesn't float my boat consciously or subconsciously or in any way.

But if I subconsciously needed it would I be drawn to someone who seemed cool with treating me badly?

We've all seen the guys that treat their girlfriends like dirt & she seems to love him all the more for it. It baffles me but I guess I'm trying to understand how low self esteem can keep somebody around a person who treats you badly.

[Reg]

Moonie, try to imagine this for one moment, you have no identity, you have no idea who you are, you don't like the person you are, you think you are not beautiful, you think you are not worthy of living almost.  What would the consequences be ?

[Reg]

O forgot this,yes it is sub consciousness indeed.

[expos]

We've all seen the guys that treat their girlfriends like dirt & she seems to love him all the more for it. It baffles me but I guess I'm trying to understand how low self esteem can keep somebody around a person who treats you badly.

This is why I had to force myself to treat my exBPDwife badly in our final correspondence.  It felt bad to do, because it is not my character, but I had to do it because I knew she would get turned on by it in some sick way.  And, it did work.  Her boyfriend stalked me, or one of them was keeping tabs on me in some capacity.  

I treated her badly in our relationship out of anger on how she was treating me and I'm not proud of some of the things I did.  But treating her poorly didn't work, she didn't get "turned on" by it, and smothering her with love didn't work either.   So, you can't win.

[Scout99]

To answer the initial question there are probably a lot of subconscious patterns of recycling (bad) experiences from early past that is going on, on the inside of a person with BPD. At the core of the disorder is some form of childhood trauma that has hurt the persons normal perception and expectations of intimate relationships and formed a schema (an underlying life rule), of expected abandonment. In essence they have learned that relationships can give validation but the price in the end is abandonment, a.k.a, I am not worthy of anybody's sustained love for myself... . I will always be abandoned... .

If a female the feminine childhood hopeful dream of the knight in shining armor is still there, but the expected end is not, "and they lived happily ever after", but instead "and then he/she left me and I was alone... .

Everybody have schemas like this, nons too, but ours are not as devastatingly black and white as theirs are, and also not as distorted... . usually we have a somewhat reasonably good expectation of being well treated and we don't see it as doomed that all r/s we enter will fail... . And we probably don't think of ourselves as doomed to be abandoned either... .

But most pwBPD do.

And non or PD, we all tend to recycle the patterns of our life schemas... . Some of us nons may for instance have a bit destructive co-dependency schemas that we tend to recycle over and over again... .

And if the schema tells the BPD that they will meet someone , fall madly in love but in the end they will be abandoned, they will in part also subconsciously act in accordance with that expectancy to make it happen, like fulfilling a self prophecy if you will... . In the beginning perhaps not when they are madly in love, but when everyday life knocks on the door the schema will to send a reminder into the soul and fear and worry of not if, but when it all will fall apart sets in and then making sure it does can actually serve as relief of that anxiety, since it at least imparts some kind of control... .

It is by addressing these schemas in the hopes of changing some or all of them that treatment can make a pwBPD learn better coping skills and change the expected future prophecies of their lives... .

Best Wishes

Scout99

[expos]

I had to meet with her a couple months back due to taxes and after the meeting, I reached out to her to comfort her and see how she was doing.  She took it as a opportunity to bash me to the floor, say that our marriage never worked, that she never wanted to speak to me again, it's over, that was never right to begin with, that she was better and happier being out of marriage, and that she was seeing someone two months after our divorce was finalized.  You don't say these things to people you once cared about.  She intentionally tried to hurt me and my intention was to be friendly and see how she was coping.

I had to speak with her again 3 months later and she got bratty with me again and I put her in her place.  Told her that wanted nothing to do with her and that I was seeing somebody as well (which I was), and told her I chose to leave her.  If you read between the lines of my email, I set off a lot of triggers for a BPD and used them against her thanks to this site.  Not proud of what I did, but I chose not to be disrespected.  

My ex-wife always was always turned on by ___holes.  She facebook friended the biggest ass she ever dated after we separated, but wants nothing to do with the passive, emotional guys she dated in the past.  Her dad was an ass, as was her brother, and she seems to respect them.  I decided to join to club and throttle her on the way out.

[Notthesame64]

They think they are not worthy of people in many cases, self esteem, identity and self-respect are sometimes extremely low.

Yes because mine was the master of victimization, his favorite words would be... I don’t deserve anyone.  I am no good to anyone.   And once when I was at my lowest thresh hold I blurted out that if you don’t change your behavior you're going to find yourself old and alone... WELL... good thing I gave him more fuel... because now he has a new spear to throw at me... .

YOU'RE RIGHT... I'M NO GOOD FOR ANYONE JUST LIKE YOU SAID

.  So now it is no longer his self pity but my flaming comment he can say I said about him.   it is their low self-esteem, their image they need to portray... one of his favorite sayings was... I aint no whooss bag... meaning he isnt a weak person.  I think he needed to view himself as this strong tough man... like everyone was thinking otherwise... never understood where that came from.

[mitchell16]

on one of our many break ups, I ran into my exBPDgf in place she ahd no business becasue it was with my job and she didnt work there anymore. We made polite conversations, I was nice to her not rude but not overly friendly. We parted ways. about two after the meeting she starts calling. I dont answer. She starts texting me wanting to meet me. I dont respond. She then leaves me a vm telling that she needed me to be mean to her that day, she wanted me to me mean to her that day instead of being nice and polite. which all this led to us getting back together again. But yes I guess they do want you to treat them mean.

[Octoberfest]

As mentioned, I don't think it is a matter of them WANTING it... . I think they don't believe that they deserve better.

In one of the texts immediately following the point where I finally laid down that I was not going to recycle again, my BPDex said something to the effect of:

"Forget about me and go live your life"

I asked why I should forget about her and she said:

"Because I was never good for you.  You are so much better of a person than I could ever dream of being, and as sad as that is we both know it is true.  So just forget about all of the garbage I brought into your life and go be that amazing man that I know that you are ok.  Can you do that for me?"


I really wish I had just left it at that... . the contact from that point onwards really didn't make me feel any better.

[Learning_curve74]

As mentioned, I don't think it is a matter of them WANTING it... . I think they don't believe that they deserve better.

This and what Scout99 wrote are what I feel are true, at least in the case of my pwBPD. She was used to growing up being treated as worthless, so while she wanted the care and love she didn't receive as a child, she was also used to being treated poorly and expected it since she had no self-worth. Obviously a lose-lose/no-win situation.

[mcc503764]

According to my xBPD, she always told me how she has never felt as if she deserves anything good because she is such a bad person.  she doesn't deserve any better?

my x is a therapist and has a therapist.  her own professional shame wont let her admit to anything, but I know what it is.  I lived with it for too long and I have seen enough to know.  There is NO question in my mind on this one.

Her very profession is a distraction from herself.  "everyone else is crazy, and I must be the sane one if they are coming to me."

So, Yes I think they want to be treated badly.  Not only because of their low self worth, but on the other side of the coin they can be treated badly and use that victimization as a manipulative tool to hook her next toy... .

This is their pattern.  Their cycle, which has been repeated and perfected all throughout her life.  Somewhere she learned that this is an acceptable coping mechanism because she always gets what she wants!

Can this be undone?  I would think that would be the equivalence of being right handed and losing that hand in an accident.  Now you have to train yourself to be left handed... . Can anyone see my parallel on this one?  With enough practice you would learn and teach yourself, probably even enough to function.   BUT, at the end of the day, your brain is still wired to be RIGHT handed!

Thoughts?

MCC

Thoughts?

MCC

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Moonie, In my view it's all part of the paradox of BPD: they want love, yet behave in unloving fashion; they fear abandonment, yet push you away; they seek stability, yet create chaos; they want peace, yet pick fights; they are extremely sensitive, yet will never apologize; they treat you poorly, then act hurt when you don't want to be around them.

In sum, they act in ways designed to bring about the exact opposite result from that which they are seeking.  Go figure!

Lucky Jim

[Notthesame64]

OMG Lucky J... .

That was a perfect description!,!  PERFECT!

[Scout99]

Hey Moonie, In my view it's all part of the paradox of BPD: they want love, yet behave in unloving fashion; they fear abandonment, yet push you away; they seek stability, yet create chaos; they want peace, yet pick fights; they are extremely sensitive, yet will never apologize; they treat you poorly, then act hurt when you don't want to be around them.

In sum, they act in ways designed to bring about the exact opposite result from that which they are seeking.  Go figure!

Lucky Jim

This is consistent with the disorder but it can be misleading if we don't understand the underlying aspect of what it is that makes a person act in a way that seemingly contradicts a wanted result... .

But there is really some logic to this, from a disordered point of view... .

And it all boils down to anxiety and the relief of it... .

I think we all have things we dread in our lives, that increases our levels of anxiety... . For some it may be holding a public speech, for others it may be going to the dentist just to name a few examples... .

Now at what point is the anxiety level at it's highest? Where does it peak?

Well it is usually the minutes before the dreaded event is about to take place. Like minutes before being called to the dentist chair or standing behind the scene waiting to be announced... . Usually once in the dentist chair or a bit into holding our speech the anxiety levels have dropped considerably.

Now this teaches us that our fears are at their highest when anticipating something we dread, and release comes when we are finally exposed to what we feared... .

If we translate this into a person with BPD, who fear abandonment in a relationship. A fear that is real and will not subside, since it is part of their core belief system. That pretty much makes being in a relationship feel like sitting in the waiting room at the dentist waiting for their number to be up... .

A way to release some of that fear is to pick a fight, push the partner away, create some chaos, or not apologize for bad behavior... . Why because if we respond to it and either threaten to break up the relationship or respond with anger, it confirms their fear and gives some release from their heightened anxiety levels... .

So the behaviors are not connected with things they may very well wish for, like a longterm loving and stable relationship. But with the fact that they cannot self soothe and free themselves from constantly swinging anxiety levels... .

One can compare it with the nervousness most actors experience before going on stage every night... . Many of them break sweat and feel like they are about to die every night, before going on... . But still they choose to continue with their trade... . Why, because the desire for being an actor on stage is still stronger than the fear, and they learn that once they are up there, release follows... .

It is the same for a person with BPD. They desire the validation from being in a relationship, so the fear of abandonment will not stop them from seeking a partner. But once in the relationship the waves of anxiety and the constant reminder from within that one day this person will be gone and have abandoned me emerges... . And then the behavior for release begins... .

I think much of the answers to why pw BPD seem to love the initial phase the idealization phase so much is that at that point their fears are at it's farthest away... .

At least this is how I have come to understand the seemingly illogical behaviors they so often display... .

Scout99

[Notthesame64]

I am learning so much here! 

[Findingmysong723]

Great description Scout99!

[Findingmysong723]

Remembering my xBPD, telling me when we were having one of our last conversations about ending our relationship, he told me "We'll just end up hating each other, and isn't it better to end it when we still care about each other or something like that.

He asaw abuse in his family, his Dad was an alcoholic and and abusive to his Mom and he saw thing when he was really little. Also, he is a recovering alcoholic himself and I thought a lot of his issues was because of that, still not sure if it was BPD or traits of a recovering alcoholic who isn't coping well or both. All I know is he was used to chaos and that is what he felt comfortable with. His Anxiety was so bad, he took medication for it but by the end of the relationship he has stopped taking it, not sure why. He didn't feel comfortable with quiet or quiet times together, or at least for too long. Oh well, it's over now.

[Moonie75]

Well I left when i suspected she was lining yet another guy up. I was right & they hooked up soon as I was gone.

I left without a single raised voice or any signs of temper. The nearest i got was calmly saying "Any woman who beds the neighbors, isn't my cup of tea! But if you're cool with it I'll leave you to your own choices while I make mine."

It was VERY hard to stay calm while I was working out what was going on & subsequently leaving after deciding this time I'd believe my gut instead of her.

Now she's being a real witch & I'm sure she's trying to get me to explode about it all. I started this thread because I've been getting the feeling she subconsciously needs me to get nasty? Like she needs me to start behaving in a way that makes it all easier to justify her choice?

Or maybe knows what she's done & how much it's hurt me, and needs me to say or do something that alleviates the guilt?

I'd f***ing love to explode & blast the hell out of her. The whole experience of feeling your partner's banging the neighbor, or the neighbor has more appeal than you, is VERY UPSETTING & soul destroying. But I left with very little & want my dignity to be something that came with me! My gran used to say "when somebody wrongs you, you can hurt them with anger, but you'll hit em harder with kindness, or silence!"

I don't know coz I'm not an expert or well read enough (though still learning).

[Hazelrah]

Moonie,

There is something to be said for handling a difficult (or even impossible) situation with some level of grace, so I'd say avoiding a major conniption fit is a feather in your cap.  True BPDs seem to thrive on some level of chaos and/or disfunction, so you probably acquitted yourself well by choosing to avoid it. 

[Moonie75]

Well it was bloody hard man I can tell ya! It took everything I had to keep calm, it felt like a self imposed endurance test!

The reason was mainly thinking what gran used to say while I was going through it. I really REALLY hope I made it harder for her to carry around on her shoulders when she see's my car, hears my name or gets a reminder of me somehow!

They know right from wrong at the end of the day. They can't say sorry with any conviction we know this. But we know too that they feel it, they just can't face it. So yeah, I hope i weighed her down a little more. I deserved better & she desreved what I left on her shoulders. She'll never admit it's there, but hopefully she feels it all to well?

I don't want to blow my stack, help her justify it & lighten the load for her do I!

[Suzn]

I don't want to blow my stack, help her justify it & lighten the load for her do I!

Mooney this would help you if she were to do this if the tables were turned. Stop for a minute and think about that. That's the deal. We think our exs think the same way we do and they just don't.

I'm sorry this hurts so much my friend. Give in to the real emotion here. That's what will get you to the other side of this.

[Moonie75]

Suzn,

Don't worry I've given in to the real emotion. I've cried my eyes out since I left. I've walked through the day like the living dead. I'm grieving my relationship & letting myself do it. I just wanted to do it with dignity & in private, not in front of her. I don't want to give her the satisfaction.

I'm quite able to put my dignity in my pocket for a moment & cry like a baby when I'm alone.

But in front of her or when in an exchange with her, my dignity will be firmly in place.

[Moonie75]

I don't want to blow my stack, help her justify it & lighten the load for her do I!

Mooney this would help you if she were to do this if the tables were turned.

What would help me if the tables were turned & I'd done it to her? Her blowing her stack would help me, or her keeping calm?

Your comment is confusing me.

[Suzn]

I understand. Focus on your emotions Mooney. We can exit the roller coaster by not visiting the war stories often though I know it's easier said than done. Have you ever gotten mad at someone at work and then got busy doing something else then on the ride home start thinking about it again and by the time your home your angry all over again? We all do this sometimes. You are on your own roller coaster right now. Does that make sense?

You will drive yourself nuts trying to apply being rational to irrational. If it made sense it wouldn't be a disorder listed in the DSM.

Sorry I typed this while you answered again. To answer your question... . Most of us get befuddled with the logic. The title of this thread is a perfect example. WE would think they want to be hurt by their actions because that's what WE would think if we were behaving this way. It is our projection.

[thisyoungdad]

This was all very interesting to read. Not too long after my wife very suddenly without warning got up and left, but while we were in couples therapy she would continually say to me that "I wish you would just go date someone it would make things so much easier" and I was always appalled by that because I didn't want to go date someone else. This was before I really knew it was BPD, I was starting to suspect but nothing very clear. She said this for months and months and I never got it. Especially because not too long after she left she came back and it looked like we were working on things. She made a comment to me about how she didn't want to lose her family. I realized later she meant her family or origin not me and our daughter. It was in reference though to the boundaries she is unable to set with them, so every time they visit from out of state she gets traumatized all over again. I have seen it for 5+ years. So I never knew what to make of the odd comments but I think now that I read this I get it. She was convinced I was going to abandon her for a younger, hotter woman as her mother kept feeding her that line. I am 13 years younger so I am just 30 and post baby she was even more insecure. So finally her fear of abandonment became too much and she left but then wanted me to go do something to justify leaving a great husband, a great young family and all that we were building together, to alleviate some shame. Even all her friends, my friends, everyone who knows us question why she would leave me when although I am not perfect no one understands why, especially since all her friends would wish that their husbands were like me more, that she would up and leave. I think it makes a lot more sense now.

[KellyO]

Hey Moonie, In my view it's all part of the paradox of BPD: they want love, yet behave in unloving fashion; they fear abandonment, yet push you away; they seek stability, yet create chaos; they want peace, yet pick fights; they are extremely sensitive, yet will never apologize; they treat you poorly, then act hurt when you don't want to be around them.

In sum, they act in ways designed to bring about the exact opposite result from that which they are seeking.  Go figure!

Lucky Jim

+1000. It is exactly this. It was exactly this. I don't know how many times I heard the " I don't deserve any woman in my life". And then I was treated like a trash. I have not decided yet if he thinks I am trash because I was with worthless person like him, or if it was his trash projected to me.

He could change from lowest self-pity to raging arrogance in a minute. And he did it several times a day if needed. Rest of the time he was just an empty shell lying in a sofa watching endless marathons of TV-soap and expecting his every whim to be cathered.

I seriously don't miss anything in him anymore.

I was told here this moment will come when I don't even have a thought of going back together. It was true, I am there now.

[danley]

I don't know if they WANT to be treated badly. But they assume and anticipate that they will be treated badly. They believe it will happen to them. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. They end up subconsciously doing things that create their fears.

My ex used to tell me on occasion after we argued because he hurt my feelings or completely neglected them... . "Sometimes I have to be cruel to be kind to you. " I know in NORMAL situations this saying would be OK. But when I look back on it today it just gives me the shivers because I think he took on this saying to a whole different level with me. In fact, I think he probably meant, "Sometimes I have to be cruel to be kind to MYSELF. "