When teenagers don't want to come over on your visitation night.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My brother has two 14 year old (twin) girls who live with my brother's dBPD ex.  Gradually the girls have stopped going to his house on his visitation nights, because it makes their mom sad.  BPD ex cries, manipulates, lies... .   anything to keep the girls from going to their fathers.  Tonight is one of his visitation nights, and the girls at first told him that they had too much homework (it's only the second day of school).  When my brother told them that they could do their homework at his house, they admitted that they just didn't want to come over because it makes mom sad.  My brother feels that the girls are being brainwashed, and that he is slowly losing them.  He's been told that at 14 children are old enough to make their own decisions about where they want to be, but he's considering taking his ex to court to sue for more time.  He has always been there to pick the girls up when its his time, and has always tried to do anything he can to make things easier for them.  He has never been late on a child support payment, and even started paying before the court ordered him to.  His ex, on the other hand, cheated constantly on him while they were married, and swindled him out of his share of their home's escrow when she kicked him out by lying to the judge and crying on the stand.  Her current boyfriend lives in the house with the ex and the girls, along with the exes mom and a roommate that they are subletting to, since the ex has no impulse control when it comes to spending money.  Have any of you experienced this, if so what did you do.   

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

My brother has two 14 year old (twin) girls who live with my brother's dBPD ex.  Gradually the girls have stopped going to his house on his visitation nights, because it makes their mom sad.  BPD ex cries, manipulates, lies... .   anything to keep the girls from going to their fathers.  Tonight is one of his visitation nights, and the girls at first told him that they had too much homework (it's only the second day of school).  When my brother told them that they could do their homework at his house, they admitted that they just didn't want to come over because it makes mom sad.  My brother feels that the girls are being brainwashed, and that he is slowly losing them.  He's been told that at 14 children are old enough to make their own decisions about where they want to be, but he's considering taking his ex to court to sue for more time.  He has always been there to pick the girls up when its his time, and has always tried to do anything he can to make things easier for them.  He has never been late on a child support payment, and even started paying before the court ordered him to.  His ex, on the other hand, cheated constantly on him while they were married, and swindled him out of his share of their home's escrow when she kicked him out by lying to the judge and crying on the stand.  Her current boyfriend lives in the house with the ex and the girls, along with the exes mom and a roommate that they are subletting to, since the ex has no impulse control when it comes to spending money.  Have any of you experienced this, if so what did you do.   

[scraps66]

I think this is, at least in part, referred to as "parentification," the feelign that the kids have to take care of the parents.  All enstilled programming by a parent through manipulation.  The book Divorce Poison may speak to this, I forget.

[ForeverDad]

I too see it as parentification, at least in part.  I also think it is not so subtle guilting and manipulation.

My brother feels that the girls are being brainwashed, and that he is slowly losing them.  He's been told that at 14 children are old enough to make their own decisions about where they want to be, but he's considering taking his ex to court to sue for more time.

Likely the brainwashing is subtle enough - courts generally focus on substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment - that it will be hard for him to convince the court that it is significant enough to change the order by much.  Then again, he won't know how much he could change things if he doesn't try.

Fourteen is a bit young for them to decide when they want to come, generally it's more like 16, as in when the kids can drive cars and vote with their feet. :'(  For younger children such as here in the early teens, the court can listen to their reasons and then decide.  As I understand the typical age bracketing.

On the legal side, he can seek the court to order them to continue their time with you.  That would take at least a few months to resolve, perhaps longer.  Meanwhile, they're growing older and getting closer to an age where the court won't step in.  If she does take legal action, he needs to do so BEFORE a pattern on no-shows becomes the established pattern.  If they stop coming and the new pattern doesn't cause major problems, the court may be less inclined to enforce the current order since it has been the recent pattern.

On the practical side, he can make several points with the girls, calmly and in a prepared but relaxed and friendly session with them.  Do they have a counselor or therapist, someone they're comfortable with?  I only ask so there can be a somewhat neutral person they trust or relate to who can help keep things from disintegrating, blowing up in his face or getting out of hand.  A few items to consider:  "Girls... . "

• Think objectively.
  
  Do you two cry about leaving your mother to come visit your father?  No?
  
  Do you two cry about leaving your father to go visit your mother?  No?
  
  Do I cry when you leave to see your mother?  No?
  
  Does your mother cry about leaving your mother to come visit your father?  Yes?
  
  Then what I can see - and can you two see? - is that your mother is the exception, she is (1) not being the mature one, (2) she is guilting you over seeing your other parent and (3) to at least some extent she is manipulating you to get at me.



• You need to regularly spend time with me so you see my example as parent adn as a person.  I want to be a good model for you two when you've grown and are making your own adult choices for close relationships such as marriage.



• Have you ponder the consequences if you don't spend significant time with me?  If you were me and had to ponder what to do when your kids go to proms and wanted special but expensive dresses, got old enough to drive, if they weren't regularly and freely visiting you, would you help contribute money above and beyond the child support for your kids get those extra clothes, get driver's licenses, buy the cars, the vehicle insurance, pay for the inevitable repair bills and the gas?



• This is just to help you get the big picture.  Yes, your mother may be 'sad' to see you go.  I'm sad too but I can accept reality.  She should too.  If you let her influence you to reduce your time with me, think of the consequences.  Consequences have impact.



• Etc.

Personally, for the daughters:  I think the prospect of having less help with extras about future cars and related expenses, fun money, extra clothes, etc, would be big motivators.  For your brother:  Be less willing to shower the kids with all the extra stuff they want.  They shouldn't be rewarded for ignoring the court order or letting their mother influence them into sabotaging your parenting.

and swindled him out of his share of their home's escrow when she kicked him out by lying to the judge and crying on the stand.

Do you mean home equity?  Usually the financial terms are fairly straightforward.  If he was due significant money for the home's equity, then I would think the judge couldn't ignore that.  However, it's possible he 'settled' and didn't push hard for it in which case the judge wouldn't have had any qualms against rubber stamping the settlement.

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

Yes, I meant equity (not escrow).  Even though my brother's name was on the deed, his BPD ex claimed that the house really belonged to her mother.  Her mother did contribute a large portion of the down payment with the understanding that the house belonged to my brother and her BPD daughter, and that the mother would be able to live there.  I was there when they made the agreement.  My brother made all of the monthly payments on the house, and the house increased in value $400,000 during the time he lived in it (before the housing bubble burst).   BPD ex also told the judge that they would have to sell the house, in order to buy my brother out, and therefore her mother and the children would suffer because there would be nowhere for them to live (Another lie, as the mother had a very nice pension for retirement, and the BPD ex had her own income, the income of her boyfriend, and the income of their subletter to pay for another living arrangement).  The case was stretched out over three years, as the ex kept coming up with excuses as to why she could not make any of the court dates.  Each time the court reconvened, the judge had to be reminded of what had already transpired, and the story kept changing.  My brother also had an inept lawyer who was running for public office at the time, and couldn't be bothered putting together a meaningful case to support my brother's claims.  Ultimately, the judge felt sorry for the BPD ex (who frequently cried in court), her elderly mother, and the children, and ruled that my brother was not entitled to any of the equity.  I was shocked when I heard this. 

You make a very good point about a pattern of no-shows, and how it will look to a judge.  I can't help but wonder if this is an attempt on the part of the ex to get more child support, since the girls are spending less time with my brother.  My brother is concerned about pushing the girls too hard to force them to come to his house.  He's afraid it will backfire and they will hate him for it.  I like your idea of suggesting that he may not be as forthcoming with money for the little extras that they want.  Unfortunately, the ex has a pattern of buying things for the girls unilaterally, and then sending my brother a bill for half without consulting him about what he thinks they should do. 

The BPD ex claims that she can't get the girls to do what they don't want to do.  A buddy of my brother's at work said to remember that there are a lot of things the BPD ex can get the girls to do, like go to school, go to bed on time, brush their teeth, do their homework... .   She could just as easily tell them that they have to visit their father too, but she likes to create turmoil. 

A particularly upsetting turn of events was on Father's Day, when according to the divorce decree my brother was supposed to have them.  The girls called and said that they wanted to stay at their Mom's house, because Mom was having a Father's Day party for her boyfriend, and the boyfriend would be sad if the girl's didn't attend. 

The BPD ex is just plain mean, and enjoys inflicting as much pain as she can.  I tell my brother to keep his cool, and the girls will eventually figure it all out, but I'm not sure if I believe this myself. 

Thanks for all your insights.

[ForeverDad]

I tell my brother to keep his cool.

Good.

and the girls will eventually figure it all out

Unlikely if all they have is a mother predisposed to twist things to her advantage.

I recall a couple years ago when I got custody but GAL was unwilling to change the equal parenting time, the GAL said, "Because of you you son will be okay."  (By the way, I am currently back in court yet again seeking majority time, the GAL's good but baby-step fix was insufficient.)

Yes, it may end up that the teens are stuck figuring it out for themselves, but their environment with mother will work against them.  That's why we encourage us parents to keep as much involvement with the kids as possible despite the uphill struggle against the opposition and obstructions.

[sunnywind]

the kids wont be properly brainwashed, because they will have already realized she is irrational with their own friends

. when they start thinking as an adult,at 15 or so ,they will rebel and initiate contact with Dad . he needs to keep making simple friendly gestures / by various means/ so they know the door is always open

this happened to me , now theyre young adults my kids see me often and nothing BPDmum can do stops them for long

 

[allibaba]

I tell my brother to keep his cool.

Good.

and the girls will eventually figure it all out

Unlikely if all they have is a mother predisposed to twist things to her advantage.

Just wanted to throw in that my husband is uBPD and his ex-wife is diagnosed full blown delusional narcissist.  She's now been remarried 4x since they got divorced in 2002.  There are three daughters involved.  My husband is a surprisingly good parent despite the BPD.  He lost the will to fight for his daughters about 3 yrs ago and about $100,000 into custody battle.  Unfortunately he had had enough.  I told him... . don't worry... . they'll probably come around some day.  I now realize that they probably won't.  The only reason that we get contacted is for money.  The 3 girls are truly, truly psychologically damaged from their mothers games. 

If your brother has the mental stamina and resources to continue to be in their lives... . then keep fighting for that time.   I understand why my husband had to back out... . he had too many ghosts haunting him and he was losing himself in the battle.  It was the right decision for him and I'll never fault him for that... .

[momtara]

It's parental alienation, but unfortunately, some courts allow them to make their own decisions as teenagers.  At least they know that their mom is being manipulative. 

My mom was like that too, growing up.  I still knew she was wrong to do it (and mentally ill) but sometimes I went along with it.  I get along fine with my dad today, and deal with my mom on a limited basis.  I don't know if that's comforting or not.

It seems like it would be healthy for the daughters to be ordered to see their dad so that the mom can't manipulate this or give them guilt trips.  Courts are supposed to act in the best interest of the children.  So there's still a possibility he could deal with this in court. 

[starshine]

Parental alienation- thank goodness there is a name to this that we can use when talking about what has been going on with our kids and our ex.  For years I would try to explain to people that my children got "emotional rewards" for not responding to me, making me wait, changing plans at the last second, talking bad about me behind my back.  My daughter was the worst- she would say how great her father and his people are while basically ignoring what I (and my people) have provided for them.  She would tear my character apart- to others and myself.  And then be the sweetest thing when she wanted something.  I believe my ex has ASPD and NPD.  He may even be borderline- screaming at me that I abandoned my kids for 3 weeks when I took a PLANNED 2 week vacation to Spain and he refused to switch parenting time- so somehow the 3 weeks I didn't see them counts as abandonment.  The ex and I had 50/50 parenting time. As both children grew older (15/16) they both chose to move in with their dad, even though it is not as pleasant or stable of a place to live.  They know it's not right there, but the enmeshment is do strong it seems they can't make the choice to move back with me.  Like, it's not even an option in their heads.  Lots of tv's and video games though.  It's been a very sad co-parenting situation.  I still hope my children will someday see what happened- and in some way come back to me.

[momtara]

I am so sorry, Starshine.  Well, kids know the truth, but it's really hard to stand up for yourself as a kid.  Sometimes it's easier just to go with the more emotional parent in order to soothe that person.

Parental alienation is a big term these days.  Unfortunately, I don't know that every judge deals with it properly.